Final hearing today

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Thanks everyone for all the advice and support.

today was my final hearing and in my eyes was a huge victory for my daughter and my family.

since October the court had a temp order in place of visitation as follows every wed for 1 hr and 1 weekend day for 3 hrs. as I live 40 min from my ex it didn't make much sense to take my daughter to my house as most of the 3 hrs would be driving, so since oct I've had to spend my time with my daughter at the mall, pet store and other public places which has been awful for good bonding time for me and my daughter.

my lawyer proposed a very fair deal which we both knew my ex would reject because she is dead set against me having quality time with my daughter the offer was every wed from 3 to 5 and every sat for 8 hrs for three months then it would be every wed from 3 to 5 and every other sat from 6 pm to 6 pm sunday 3 months after that would be every wed from 3 to 5 and every other weekend.

she sent us a counter offer of  Monday , wed and every other Friday for 1 hr and every sat and sun for 3 hrs that would last for 1 yr then it would move to mon , wed and every other fri for 1 hr and every sat for 8 hrs that would last 1 year then move to 1 weekend day over night that would last 6 months then standard visitation would start except that there would be no week long visits during the summer until she was 5.

I refused and went before the judge who gave a fair ruling of evry mon and wed 3 to 5 and every other sat and sun 2 to 6 then in 3 months every mon and wed 3 to 5 and every other sat 2 pm till 6 pm Sunday then in 6 months every wed 3 to 5 and every other weekend full standard visitations. she also granted my wish to change my daughters last name from my exs last name which is still her ex husbands to my last name.

we did ask for 50/50 joint custody, i didn't get that but that's my next step when she is a little older she will turn 1 in a week. I will continue to document everything for when we go back to court.

my exs offer looked like a lot of time but it wasn't quality time and i would spend most of my time driving with her from place to place. not to mention she would be 3 yrs old before i got any long periods of time with her.

any suggestions on steps i can take to get 50/50 custody in the future? my lawyer said it would be difficult because judges don't like to do that. my ex looked furious after the ruling, things did not go her way so i imagine tomorrows pick up should be interesting , i will be ready to tape when i pick my daughter up

[Eco]

Thanks everyone for all the advice and support.

today was my final hearing and in my eyes was a huge victory for my daughter and my family.

since October the court had a temp order in place of visitation as follows every wed for 1 hr and 1 weekend day for 3 hrs. as I live 40 min from my ex it didn't make much sense to take my daughter to my house as most of the 3 hrs would be driving, so since oct I've had to spend my time with my daughter at the mall, pet store and other public places which has been awful for good bonding time for me and my daughter.

my lawyer proposed a very fair deal which we both knew my ex would reject because she is dead set against me having quality time with my daughter the offer was every wed from 3 to 5 and every sat for 8 hrs for three months then it would be every wed from 3 to 5 and every other sat from 6 pm to 6 pm sunday 3 months after that would be every wed from 3 to 5 and every other weekend.

she sent us a counter offer of  Monday , wed and every other Friday for 1 hr and every sat and sun for 3 hrs that would last for 1 yr then it would move to mon , wed and every other fri for 1 hr and every sat for 8 hrs that would last 1 year then move to 1 weekend day over night that would last 6 months then standard visitation would start except that there would be no week long visits during the summer until she was 5.

I refused and went before the judge who gave a fair ruling of evry mon and wed 3 to 5 and every other sat and sun 2 to 6 then in 3 months every mon and wed 3 to 5 and every other sat 2 pm till 6 pm Sunday then in 6 months every wed 3 to 5 and every other weekend full standard visitations. she also granted my wish to change my daughters last name from my exs last name which is still her ex husbands to my last name.

we did ask for 50/50 joint custody, i didn't get that but that's my next step when she is a little older she will turn 1 in a week. I will continue to document everything for when we go back to court.

my exs offer looked like a lot of time but it wasn't quality time and i would spend most of my time driving with her from place to place. not to mention she would be 3 yrs old before i got any long periods of time with her.

any suggestions on steps i can take to get 50/50 custody in the future? my lawyer said it would be difficult because judges don't like to do that. my ex looked furious after the ruling, things did not go her way so i imagine tomorrows pick up should be interesting , i will be ready to tape when i pick my daughter up

[Waddams]

Congratz on getting better than what she was offering.  It's a regular thing when dealing with disordered people in court though, they are so entitled and actually believe they are entitled to whatever they want regardless of how it affects others they literally can't see reality.  Just too wrapped up in themselves.

As for getting 50/50 in the future, it's going to be tough.  Some things that come to mind though, not all of which may be possible for you:

-Move closer to your ex.  To make 50/50 work long term, the parents really have to live and work in close proximity to each other.  Preferably in the same school zones. 

In my case, I have 50/50, and I got it initially because uPDxw just plain made the judge mad at the hearing, so he ruled against her.  After that, I worked a good 40 min-hour away due to a congested commute (I live in a metro area that has some of the worst traffic in the country!)  Making it work so I could take him to school, get to work, get my hours in, get the kid, etc... . it was very tough.  I eventually found a new job much closer to where uPDxw lives and 5 minutes away from S9's school and daycare.  The new job was also a nice 10 minute drive from my home.  It has made 50/50 work so much easier.  I was very lucky to get the job.  Case of in the right place at right time because they hadn't even advertised and my skill set was a perfect match for what they needed.

-Go to every doctor and dentist visit.  Get copies of all her records.  Keep up to date on everything.  Don't wait for mom either when your child needs some kind of attention.  Schedule the visit, inform mom, and either take her on your time.  Be proactive and show responsible action for your daughter's well being.

-Get every ounce of extra time you can get.  Your ex- might not agree to it, but request time additional to the court ordered time.  Say "I'm taking daughter to the zoo (or something)... . we'll need more than the allotted time.  I'd like to keep her an extra 2/4/etc. hours on such and such date.  Is that okay?"  And document it all.  Emails/texts/etc.  Figure out a way to archive text communications and back them up.  I have an app on my phone that backs up my texts to my gmail account.  I can then print out any text thread with anyone that I've backed up and you can read it like a transcript.  Also keep a journal and calendar that shows a detailed record of all the time you have her with you, both normal court ordered time, and any extra time.

Another way I've gotten extra time in the past is when I'm going to visit out of town family, or they are coming to visit me.  We time it for my time, and most times a little longer on the front or back side of the visit.  And then I say something to the effect of "S9 doesn't get to see them much, can I have him during the visit so he can get as much family time as he can?"  And of course, it all gets noted into the calendar records.

At some point, if you get enough extra time, and it becomes routine, it can become grounds to seek a court order to make it permanent because it becomes the child's routine and changing it would become harmful to the child.  This is another thing that helped me get 50/50 at trial when uPDxw had been a stay home mom prior to our split.  uPDxw had delayed for so long, and at the same time, I'd also managed to wheel and deal to get S9 (who was 3 at the time) 50/50 time after we split, that I was establish a year and half of 50/50 time before the trial.  It set a new precedent for the child's routine.  I was able to turn my ex-'s obstruction back on her and use it to my advantage at trial in that regard.

-When she starts school/pre kindergarten/etc. - be involved.  Show up to plays/parent teacher conferences/etc.  Keep tabs on what they are working with her on, and be part of supporting it.  Don't just be a disney dad.  Get into the less fun things like homework and reading on your time.  Closer proximity also makes this much easier to accomplish.

-Every single parent has a time when the kid gets sick on them.  Take her to the doc on your own on your time.  Just take care of it.  Build a documented history you can be responsible for her care on your time.  Notify her mother, maybe before, maybe after... . things like quick texts... . daughter just threw up and has a fever, taking her to dr. smith/urgent care/etc. at 10 am to get checked out.  Or even after... . daughter threw up, took her to doc.  have antibiotics for infection and fever now.  Will take care of her here until time to send her home.  Or even better (i've used this one)... . child got sick, threw up, went to doc, got meds, child now sleeping.  Don't want to wake child and disturb her rest.  Can I keep her here past dropoff deadline so she can sleep as much as she needs uninterrupted?

So to sum up, build a case for 50/50 by being a responsible parent regarding health, school, getting extra time and showing you want the child, building a more connected relationship with the child, and structuring your life to allow you to make it work for the child's best interests.

[ForeverDad]

So to sum up, build a case for 50/50 by being a responsible parent regarding health, school, getting extra time and showing you want the child, building a more connected relationship with the child, and structuring your life to allow you to make it work for the child's best interests.

And... . you'll build documentation of all the times you made reasonable requests (extra time and/or shifted time) and you always were told No.  (You know she's very likely to say No.)  Of course, you shouldn't expect to get every request but when she always consistently answers No to virtually every single one just because the schedule allows her to say No then that will document she can't/won't be reasonable and cooperatively share your child.  While you shouldn't expect Yes for every or even most requests,

In my case, my Custody Evaluator noted my then-stbEx could not share 'her' child and father could.  That and other issues noted meant a lot to the CE and the CE wrote that mother should lose temporary custody immediately (court sat on it while we went on to the next step in the divorce) and that if we tried Shared Parenting and it failed then father should get custody.  Sure enough, Shared Parenting did fail and by the time the court confirmed Change of Circumstances it decided the CE report was stale, too old to be used which only served to make the case take longer.

As Waddams suggested, in emotionally neutral requests mention the events and ask for an exception.  Child fell asleep, visit to the zoo, park, reunion with family, etc.  Document your polite request and her response.  Remember, one factor the judge may have let her keep so much time could be because your daughter is so young.  Daughter is so young she will not need to go to Disneyworld, she just needs to have fun and feel loved.  Courts generally recognize that and for children under 3 years old they order frequent but somewhat short visits.  Did your ex use the "I can't share my child because I'm breastfeeding" ploy, as though it is impossible for her to express her milk and pass it along in refrigerated or frozen bottles?

What about additional time for holidays and vacations, is it specified in the temp order?  I had big issues with that vagueness in my temp order.  When I notified my ex of my vacation with 4 year old son, she denied "permission", my lawyer said to go ahead, she showed up with police at my relative's residence and then she tried to get an Amber Alert declared.  All because of a non-specific order.  If it isn't addressed, ask your lawyer about that, if going back to court soon then get it confirmed there.  Remember, she can demand what she wants, but family court is the only real authority.

[Waddams]

FD makes good points about breastfeeding too.  However, it is hard for the child to do 50/50 when the parents live a significant geographical distance apart from each other.  That's going to be one of the biggest obstacles to a judge approving 50/50, but it's also potentially not that hard to remedy.  You can move.  Much easier if you can change jobs as well.

Once you're closer, you can also structure your life to much more easily be able to request additional time.

Is moving an option at some point in the future?

[ForeverDad]

A risk with moving to be closer to child is that ex may decide to move or even move repeatedly just to spite you.  A lot depends on where each of you work and reside and how deep your roots are.  Do you do all the driving, to and from her residence?  That's probably why you have so little time with your daughter.  Perhaps that is something to change.

Exchange locations... . Long term it is best to find neutral locations for exchanges.  People with BPD are unlikely to be stable enough to avoid periodic outbursts and incidents at exchanges, especially if it is at their home.  A pwBPD's home is a sensitive area and you can get raged at or even have the police called on you for almost no reason at all.  Depending on the conflict of the moment, it may be best that neither of you enter the other's home or in some cases not even approach it.  Some orders say the person with the child is to drop off at the other's home, or a flipped pattern.  That way each parent does half the driving, one at the beginning of the visit and the other t the end of the visit.

If you always drive you may suffer higher travel expenses and perhaps have less time with your child.  If she brings your daughter to you and you later return her then that's less travel time and more time with your daughter.   Similarly for an exchange location midway between your homes.

Once your child is old enough for school or daycare then you can do drop offs and pick ups there.

I had a high conflict separation, we both had protection orders against the other during the first year.  I recall when we first set up exchanges at a friend's home she called 911 on me when we passed each other on a neighboring street, me departing and her arriving.  That's how confrontational she was.  Later we changed that to the sheriff's office and she still posed as a frightened person.   Finally, once she moved to her third residence and the sheriff's office was out of the way for both of us, we changed to a convenience store halfway between.  We live about a half hour apart and her lawyer tried - and failed - to get me to agree to an exchange location a mile from her residence.  Did he think I was a fool?  So we now each drive 15-20 minutes to exchanges if we're not dropping off or picking up from school.  And even now, 8 years later, I try to remember to bring my voice recorder with me, just in case.

[Eco]

thanks guys,

Move closer to your ex.  To make 50/50 work long term, the parents really have to live and work in close proximity to each other.  Preferably in the same school zones. 

that will be possible for me and its in the works right now.

Go to every doctor and dentist visit.

I will try but I usually have to work when she takes her

Get every ounce of extra time you can get.  Your ex- might not agree to it, but request time additional to the court ordered time.  Say "I'm taking daughter to the zoo (or something)... . we'll need more than the allotted time.  I'd like to keep her an extra 2/4/etc. hours on such and such date.  Is that okay?"  And document it all.  Emails/texts/etc.  Figure out a way to archive text communications and back them up.  I have an app on my phone that backs up my texts to my gmail account.  I can then print out any text thread with anyone that I've backed up and you can read it like a transcript.  Also keep a journal and calendar that shows a detailed record of all the time you have her with you, both normal court ordered time, and any extra time.

I will keep trying , my ex is super controlling and doesn't want to give me a inch extra, funny thing is on the stand she claimed that she was willing to give me extra time but just yesterday the following happened, I showed up for my regular visitation on Wednesday and she said " what are you doing here" I said im here for visitation she said " that doesn't start until this weekend" so I called my lawyer and told her what was going on and she contacted my exs lawyer and after talking to him she called me back and explained that although the wed visitation day didn't change in the new order the weekend did change and in court my lawyer asked the judge if it starts this weekend so my ex assumed I didn't get visitation till this weekend. point is she knew I still got wed visitation but took the chance to deny me it which shows that she isn't wanting to give me any time let alone extra time.

good thing is I was video taping her on my phone after I called my lawyer because she was holding my daughter and it was obvious that my daughter wanted me to get her outstretched arms and all yet my ex refused to let her go to me, you can hear me ask my ex if this is good for my daughter to see me come over for visitation and being denied like that. she finally agreed to let me see my daughter if I talked to her about the court order, I agreed for 2 reasons 1 I wanted to see my daughter, 2 I wanted to document her ramblings on video because in her state of mind she was bound to start raging at me when I refused to be talked out of the court order by her. I got some good documentation of her true self about 20 min worth.

-When she starts school/pre kindergarten/etc. - be involved.  Show up to plays/parent teacher conferences/etc.  Keep tabs on what they are working with her on, and be part of supporting it.  Don't just be a disney dad.  Get into the less fun things like homework and reading on your time.  Closer proximity also makes this much easier to accomplish.

 

I plan to, I have a 10 yr old son from another R/S that lives with me full time and I take care of all those things as his mom isn't involved at all.

-Every single parent has a time when the kid gets sick on them.  Take her to the doc on your own on your time.  Just take care of it.  Build a documented history you can be responsible for her care on your time.  Notify her mother, maybe before, maybe after... . things like quick texts... . daughter just threw up and has a fever, taking her to dr. smith/urgent care/etc. at 10 am to get checked out.  Or even after... . daughter threw up, took her to doc.  have antibiotics for infection and fever now.  Will take care of her here until time to send her home.  Or even better (i've used this one)... . child got sick, threw up, went to doc, got meds, child now sleeping.  Don't want to wake child and disturb her rest.  Can I keep her here past dropoff deadline so she can sleep as much as she needs uninterrupted?

I did that last week when my daughter threw up my ex flipped out when I didn't bring her back, my answer to her was im her father and I can care for her just fine

And... . you'll build documentation of all the times you made reasonable requests (extra time and/or shifted time) and you always were told No.  (You know she's very likely to say No.)  Of course, you shouldn't expect to get every request but when she always consistently answers No to virtually every single one just because the schedule allows her to say No then that will document she can't/won't be reasonable and cooperatively share your child.  While you shouldn't expect Yes for every or even most requests,

thanks im going to be documenting everything, only 2 days since court and I already have several things documented.

Did your ex use the "I can't share my child because I'm breastfeeding" ploy, as though it is impossible for her to express her milk and pass it along in refrigerated or frozen bottles?

of course she had a folder full of studies to support her but the judge didn't want to hear any of it. im all for breastfeeding and there are ways to make it work in these situations but my ex refuses to work with me. in the end the judge told her to pump.

What about additional time for holidays and vacations, is it specified in the temp order?

yes all that was included in the plan my non consecutive 2 weeks starts in the summer of 2015

Is moving an option at some point in the future?

yes im putting that together now

A risk with moving to be closer to child is that ex may decide to move or even move repeatedly just to spite you.  A lot depends on where each of you work and reside and how deep your roots are.  Do you do all the driving, to and from her residence?  That's probably why you have so little time with your daughter.  Perhaps that is something to change.

yes I worry about that but for now she wont be moving because she is a caregiver  of all things and she can manipulate and use the people she works for. yes I do all the driving I stepped up in court Tuesday when my ex was not wanting to meet me halfway and offered to do the driving, I figured I would pay off for me to yet again be the reasonable and responsible one the judge was impressed and noted it in my case. that hopefully will help me when we go back to court.

I had a high conflict separation, we both had protection orders against the other during the first year.  I recall when we first set up exchanges at a friend's home she called 911 on me when we passed each other on a neighboring street, me departing and her arriving.  That's how confrontational she was.  Later we changed that to the sheriff's office and she still posed as a frightened person. rolleyes  Finally, once she moved to her third residence and the sheriff's office was out of the way for both of us, we changed to a convenience store halfway between.  We live about a half hour apart and her lawyer tried - and failed - to get me to agree to an exchange location a mile from her residence.  Did he think I was a fool?  So we now each drive 15-20 minutes to exchanges if we're not dropping off or picking up from school.  And even now, 8 years later, I try to remember to bring my voice recorder with me, just in case.

it really does suck dealing with these people

[ForeverDad]

A risk with moving to be closer to child is that ex may decide to move or even move repeatedly just to spite you.  A lot depends on where each of you work and reside and how deep your roots are.  Do you do all the driving, to and from her residence?  That's probably why you have so little time with your daughter.  Perhaps that is something to change.

yes I worry about that but for now she wont be moving because she is a caregiver  of all things and she can manipulate and use the people she works for. yes I do all the driving I stepped up in court Tuesday when my ex was not wanting to meet me halfway and offered to do the driving, I figured I would pay off for me to yet again be the reasonable and responsible one the judge was impressed and noted it in my case. that hopefully will help me when we go back to court.

You'll need to remind the judge of that next time.  They see many cases each day, you're just another person coming through the courtroom, he may not recall your willingness to cooperate.

Sadly... . The one behaving poorly seldom has direct consequences and the one behaving well seldom has direct credit.