Question for Skip

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Skip

I was going to PM but I figured I would post instead because others may be also interested in your thoughts.  I have noticed that a good deal of your posts state that most of our BPD SO's are mild to moderate Borderlines.  What would be considered severe?  Does this imply that they can truly improve if they chose to do the work?  I have also noticed that while you do not defend pwBPD you do try to move the topics more towards the middle. I get the feeling that you feel that pwBPD are getting a worse wrap on here than they deserve, and I agree with that for the most part because we are a bunch of hurt people venting.  Is this the case?  BPD's are dehumanized often on this site so it is difficult even after reading and reading to get a feel for what really goes through their heads and what makes them tick.  I personally like to think of them as extreme codependent with major love avoidant/love addictive and passive aggressive traits but when you read over and over about similar actions by so many pwBPD it just seems like they are broken and can't be healed. 

I realize that you are responsible for posting as it relates to the entire board and not just the leaving board so some political correctness has to go into most of your posts. Do you personally believe that a BPD relationship can be successful in a more traditional sense or do you believe like many professionals that it is best to run from them?

I know I threw in a bunch of questions but am really interested in you input. 

Waifed

[Waifed]

Skip

I was going to PM but I figured I would post instead because others may be also interested in your thoughts.  I have noticed that a good deal of your posts state that most of our BPD SO's are mild to moderate Borderlines.  What would be considered severe?  Does this imply that they can truly improve if they chose to do the work?  I have also noticed that while you do not defend pwBPD you do try to move the topics more towards the middle. I get the feeling that you feel that pwBPD are getting a worse wrap on here than they deserve, and I agree with that for the most part because we are a bunch of hurt people venting.  Is this the case?  BPD's are dehumanized often on this site so it is difficult even after reading and reading to get a feel for what really goes through their heads and what makes them tick.  I personally like to think of them as extreme codependent with major love avoidant/love addictive and passive aggressive traits but when you read over and over about similar actions by so many pwBPD it just seems like they are broken and can't be healed. 

I realize that you are responsible for posting as it relates to the entire board and not just the leaving board so some political correctness has to go into most of your posts. Do you personally believe that a BPD relationship can be successful in a more traditional sense or do you believe like many professionals that it is best to run from them?

I know I threw in a bunch of questions but am really interested in you input. 

Waifed

[fromheeltoheal]

I'm not Skip Waifed, but thought I'd weigh in anyway.  My take is most people exhibit traits that get ascribed to BPD at one point or another, it's a continuum, and it takes many traits displayed consistently over time to warrant a clinical diagnosis.  Most of our exes are undiagnosed and may not get a diagnosis if they went to a professional, but the traits create their havoc nonetheless; it's also true that there are many more folks who exhibit traits in varying degrees than those who would actually warrant a diagnosis.  On the Leaving board we've had enough of the abuse, ended the relationship or had it ended for us, and are pissed off and in need of validation, so there's a lot of borderline slamming.  :)etaching involves the process of shifting the focus from the evil borderline to us, looking at our part, and healing, that's been the process for me, and I've noticed Skip and the mods and advisors gently push us that way too on this board, which is as it should be, and we're ready when we're ready.

[Waifed]

Thanks Heal

Because my ex had a waif type personality I sometimes question how severe her traits are.  It doesn't really matter in theory but for some reason it still does to me.  There is no doubt looking back that she had some severe mental issues and the crazy behavior, subtle emotional abuse and constant push/pull still affects me to this day even after 5 months.  I am still haunted by the time I told her I was going to leave and she asked "Will you still be with me if you get remarried?" It totally opened my eyes to how she really felt about me (basically as an object).  It is all so bizarre and every time I think I am healed it comes back.  It doesn't hurt anymore but the craving for her is strong every so often.   When the cravings come I have to be honest, I try to rationalize trying to work it out with her.  It passes and I would never act on it.  It is a dead end road BPD or not.  Her actions speak for themselves.  

[seeking balance]

So, we are a bit off-track on your original post, however, I think we have shined a spotlight on what is going on with you... . this is a good thing.

What do you think prompted the original post, the questions and calling out the site director?

[Skip]

Fair questions.  

I will preface my answers with this statement.  We set out in 2007 to create an alternative site for intelligent people who wanted a reputable place to go for clinically sound help and a place that therapists would see as an adjunct to therapy -- not another "Jerry Springer" type messageboard. This community asks for a little more seriousness and accountability than most.  The model here is for the more experienced senior members to become leaders/teachers and to mentor and center the newbies and freshman members.

I have noticed that a good deal of your posts state that most of our BPD SO's are mild to moderate Borderlines.  What would be considered severe?

We have a broad range here - we had 7 pwBPD commit suicide in the last year.  

BPD is a spectrum disorder (people have it in varying degrees of severity) and many people have subclinical traits - just the tendencies.  Just like in narcissism, a lot of people can be narcissistic - but far fewer qualify for an NPD diagnosis.  

The average SO in this community is most likely sub-clinical - but we have many points on the continuum represented here ranging from the suicides above to some cases where our member has more issues than the ex partner.  We all need to consider this in our work.  Our exs are somewhere on the scale.  We are also on a scale - maybe a codependent scale, or narcissistic scale, schema scale (abandoned child, etc.), or low self esteem scale, or even substance abuse scale.

Does this imply that they can truly improve if they chose to do the work?

Experts report that the lower the severity, the easier it is to recover (pwBPD) or to work with (us).

I get the feeling that you feel that pwBPD are getting a worse wrap on here than they deserve, and I agree with that for the most part because we are a bunch of hurt people venting.  Is this the case?  BPD's are dehumanized often on this site so it is difficult even after reading and reading to get a feel for what really goes through their heads and what makes them tick.

Your answer to your question is on point.  When we exaggerate, the truth is never seen.  I understand that pain and expressing it is part of the healing process.  However, there is a big price to be paid for overdoing it as a group.  If we gave a psychology test on the different boards, its likely the Leaving board would be one of the lowest scoring boards right now and that is bit concerning. I point that out to encourage members to maybe reach out a little more than they have - dig a little deeper.  If we don’t learn the human dynamics of what happened in our relationship we are destined to struggle going forward.

Do you personally believe that a BPD relationship can be successful in a more traditional sense or do you believe like many professionals that it is best to run from them?

I believe the most important point is that many of us have poor relationship skills and/or FOO issues and that is why we are suffering so much.  If we can accurately parse out what part of the relationship problems belong to our ex, we can start to see what part belongs to us. Talking about the ex is important - but it needs to be with a greater purpose than just blowing off steam.  This is also the opinion of our MD and PhD consultants/advisors.  This is the opinion of distinguished members like MaybeSo or 2010.

And I believe we can take the blinders off and do the work and have successful relationships in the traditional sense.  Unfortunately many won’t.  The same is true about the ex’s here.

In 75,000 members I’ve seen people turn it around, families turn it around, pwBPD turn it around.  I’ve got a collection of photo’s and names and phone numbers.  It’s real.  Those are the star graduates here - the top of the class.

[Waifed]

So, we are a bit off-track on your original post, however, I think we have shined a spotlight on what is going on with you... . this is a good thing.

What do you think prompted the original post, the questions and calling out the site director?

I think Skip's take on things is interesting.  I'm not calling him out at all.  I have reached a point in my healing that I am starting to really focus more on myself but I still occasionally fall back into thoughts about BPD and why she did some of the things she did.  Lately most of the stuff I have read on here has painted the pwBPD as an evil uncaring person that doesn't ever give a second thought to their recent relationship partner.  Out of site out of mind.  The only time they contact an ex is to use them for soothing, sex, etc.  Other times in the past the trend has been that the pwBPD always cares about all of their exes and can't let them go.  I really don't know how to react if I ever hear from her.  If she doesn't have the capability of caring then there is really no point in having any kind of conversation with her.  If she is going to be instantly triggered if she contacts me then there is no reason to communicate.  Ideally I would like to get completely over her and then communicate with her.  Maybe when that time comes I will be indifferent and not even respond.  Maybe she will never contact me again.  It is all confusing and like I said before I just can't seem to completely detach and that is what it really boils down too. 

[seeking balance]

I'm not calling him out at all.

Waifed - wrong word choice from me, sorry about that.  I meant "going to the top of the food chain maybe?   

Skip is a wealth of info no doubt about it - I learn from him too.  To be honest, I have never seen anyone ask him a direct question in a thread, was curious as to what made you do that is all.

[Waifed]

He has been posting quite a bit lately on the leaving board so I thought I would see if I could get a little more incite into some of his recent posts.  I just sense that he is trying to relay to members on the leaving board that pwBPD are not as cruel and damaged as we all make them out to be.  I think we often dehumanize them here on the leaving board and I get a sense that he doesn't really want that to be totally the case.  You can take it off the boards if you would like.  I was just curious to hear his thoughts more than anything.

[seeking balance]

He has been posting quite a bit lately on the leaving board so I thought I would see if I could get a little more incite into some of his recent posts.  I just sense that he is trying to relay to members on the leaving board that pwBPD are not as cruel and damaged as we all make them out to be.  I think we often dehumanize them here on the leaving board and I get a sense that he doesn't really want that to be totally the case.  You can take it off the boards if you would like.  I was just curious to hear his thoughts more than anything.

Not in any way thinking it should be removed, I just have not seen that done before is all - his answers are valuable for sure - just an interesting choice to make him the subject of the topic - not bad or good, something new for me to see is all. 

[LettingGo14]

Not in any way thinking it should be removed, I just have not seen that done before is all - his answers are valuable for sure - just an interesting choice to make him the subject of the topic - not bad or good, something new for me to see is all. 

I, for one, applaud the healthy conversation.  This community has been a life-saver.

Thanks to all for being so open & honest & respectful.

[winston72]

Thanks, Skip!  This would make a great introductory statement to the Leaving Board.

[Waifed]

Not in any way thinking it should be removed, I just have not seen that done before is all - his answers are valuable for sure - just an interesting choice to make him the subject of the topic - not bad or good, something new for me to see is all. 

I, for one, applaud the healthy conversation.  This community has been a life-saver.

Thanks to all for being so open & honest & respectful.

I will second that statement.  I've been her 5 months.  I can not even imagine what I would have done without this site.  It gave me the strength to leave for good and to maintain NC.  Otherwise I would probably still be recycling.

[Waifed]

Fair questions.  

I will preface my answers with this statement.  We set out in 2007 to create an alternative site for intelligent people who wanted a reputable place to go for clinically sound help and a place that therapists would see as an adjunct to therapy -- not another "Jerry Springer" type messageboard. This community asks for a little more seriousness and accountability than most.  The model here is for the more experienced senior members to become leaders/teachers and to mentor and center the newbies and freshman members.

I have noticed that a good deal of your posts state that most of our BPD SO's are mild to moderate Borderlines.  What would be considered severe?

We have a broad range here - we had 7 pwBPD commit suicide in the last year.  

BPD is a spectrum disorder (people have it in varying degrees of severity) and many people have subclinical traits - just the tendencies.  Just like in narcissism, a lot of people can be narcissistic - but far fewer qualify for an NPD diagnosis.  

The average SO in this community is most likely sub-clinical - but we have many points on the continuum represented here ranging from the suicides above to some cases where our member has more issues than the ex partner.  We all need to consider this in our work.  Our exs are somewhere on the scale.  We are also on a scale - maybe a codependent scale, or narcissistic scale, schema scale (abandoned child, etc.), or low self esteem scale, or even substance abuse scale.

Does this imply that they can truly improve if they chose to do the work?

Experts report that the lower the severity, the easier it is to recover (pwBPD) or to work with (us).

I get the feeling that you feel that pwBPD are getting a worse wrap on here than they deserve, and I agree with that for the most part because we are a bunch of hurt people venting.  Is this the case?  BPD's are dehumanized often on this site so it is difficult even after reading and reading to get a feel for what really goes through their heads and what makes them tick.

Your answer to your question is on point.  When we exaggerate, the truth is never seen.  I understand that pain and expressing it is part of the healing process.  However, there is a big price to be paid for overdoing it as a group.  If we gave a psychology test on the different boards, its likely the Leaving board would be one of the lowest scoring boards right now and that is bit concerning. I point that out to encourage members to maybe reach out a little more than they have - dig a little deeper.  If we don’t learn the human dynamics of what happened in our relationship we are destined to struggle going forward.

Do you personally believe that a BPD relationship can be successful in a more traditional sense or do you believe like many professionals that it is best to run from them?

I believe the most important point is that many of us have poor relationship skills and/or FOO issues and that is why we are suffering so much.  If we can accurately parse out what part of the relationship problems belong to our ex, we can start to see what part belongs to us. Talking about the ex is important - but it needs to be with a greater purpose than just blowing off steam.  This is also the opinion of our MD and PhD consultants/advisors.  This is the opinion of distinguished members like MaybeSo or 2010.

And I believe we can take the blinders off and do the work and have successful relationships in the traditional sense.  Unfortunately many won’t.  The same is true about the ex’s here.

In 75,000 members I’ve seen people turn it around, families turn it around, pwBPD turn it around.  I’ve got a collection of photo’s and names and phone numbers.  It’s real.  Those are the star graduates here - the top of the class.

Thank you so much for responding!  I missed your post until I went back through this.  I had a feeling that you were trying to make these points without directly putting it out there and I really think it is important for all of us to have a reality check every so often.  I think we on the leaving board often get caught up in the anger, pain, hurt and constant ruminations which make us bitter and resentful towards the pwBPD traits.  I know I am certainly not always rational but I also believe the further out I get the more I look at facts in a more even manner.  My relationship will never work because I caught her cheating and that is just a deal breaker for me.  It doesn't make it any easier but it is a little comforting to know that she may have hope of having a decent relationship with someone in the future.  It is also nice to know that this relationship forced me to deal with my issues and 5 months later I have changed quite a bit but still have a ways to go.  Thanks again Skip and thank you so much for bpdfamily.com!  You have literally saved lives with what you have done here.

Waifed

[heartandwhole]

Hi Waifed,

Like you, the pwBPD I was involved with was more of a waif type male and doesn't fit many of the descriptions found on this board.  He was actively working on his issues while we were together, although I'm not sure he was in the best kind of therapy for BPD.  Nevertheless, I have hope for him.  I think with continued therapy and lots of understanding, he will have a good chance at fulfilling relationships.  Just not with me, and that's okay.

It sounds like there may be a little hope lamp glowing inside of you?  It's very normal, and doesn't mean you are not detaching.  It takes time and is a process that shifts and turns sometimes. 

From detachment lesson #2 :  As you work through this process be patient. BPD is a very complex disorder to understand as the thought process is very different than our own.

 

[Waifed]

Thanks H&W

The little hope lamp will not fully extinguish.  I know the relationship between us will never work based on the past 3 years and I am not willing to try again but I cannot seem to lose the craving for her completely.  I still miss the "good times" and lately have separated them from the other times.  I will push through this and move on to a great life.  Thanks for the lesson.  I will check it out more on detaching.

Waifed

[nolisan]

It is so easy to b_tch and complain about my ex - to demonize and blame her. Yes ... . sometimes I have to vent my pain and anger. But if that's all I do that is not healing and evolving.

I remember the phase "when I am pointing my finger at someone there are three fingers pointing back at me." I can't change other people just myself.

Skip and other senior members help in reminding me that it takes two to tango. Thanks ... . I don't always "like" it but I need it.

[barbwire911]

This was a really interesting thread. I think when we are in the beginning of the end of our relationship with the pwBPD, we tend to vent and get things out.  I am at that point now as I felt I did so much for my ex and yet there were so many lies, Triangulations, manipulations and just vengeful things he did (smear campaign at my office, etc.) Now my ex also has NARC traits and exhibits NO empathy whatsoever. His ex once told me that when they went to her uncles funeral, she leaned into the open casket and was crying and he jerked her back saying her tears would ruin the deceased and to not get so close.

And when I cried, mine actually seemed to enjoy it.  He has been officially diagnosed with Anxiety and OCD but his therapy just started a few months ago so apparently she is still trying to figure out what is more with him. But for BPD, he exhibits 6 of the 9 traits easily on a daily basis and on the NARC traits, he exhibits all of them pretty consistently. LOL... maybe he is more NARC with BPD tendencies? I know the two are pretty close in nature but NARC's do not like attention and exhibitionism and my ex was very very private. In fact people at our work thought he was weird for so long as he never ever spoke of anything of himself. I was the first one that got to know him and be his first friend and he opened up alot to me but now he is in silent treatment mode of me for God knows what, so I am taking it a step further and calling it NC as enough is enough.

But I am in therapy too as know my dad is a big part of what attracted me to this guy as my dad is a diagnosed bipolar and he is just like my exBPD.  So FOO is important.  I am also reading Susan Anderson's Abandonement book which is excellent and some BPD books to understand how this disorder is as nothing is logical about it and learning is providing some closure. But given the break up is still new, it is a day by day thing and still hard and I am still venting.

[Reforming]

This is an interesting thread and a very good question.

When I first found this site amongst the brilliant and informative threads I also read damning and angry post about BPD exes. Even though I understand the terrible damage and hurt their behaviour can cause, the black and white thinking and even the terminology - NONs it left me feeling uncomfortable.


On recommendation from some others member I read all of 2010's posts and her balance, compassion and insight really struck a chord.

No one is exempt from taking responsibility for the hurt and pain they cause - but that includes both partners and those suffering from BPD though it is a terribly destructive illness

For me that hardest things to accept as a partner from someone suffering from a suspected personality disorder are;

1. I always had the power and choice to say no and leave. No one forced me to accept her behaviour.

2. That despite the complexity and almost addictive nature of the relationship I stayed because of my own issues, my own sense of defectiveness and fear.

3. I did the best I could with the skills and knowledge that I had. And even if I known more about the disease and had more skills the outcome would most likely have been the same

I still struggle to accept this at times but viewing the ill as lepers or pariah doesn't help anyone get any better, including ourselves

[fromheeltoheal]

This is an interesting thread and a very good question.

When I first found this site amongst the brilliant and informative threads I also read damning and angry post about BPD exes. Even though I understand the terrible damage and hurt their behaviour can cause, the black and white thinking and even the terminology - NONs it left me feeling uncomfortable.


On recommendation from some others member I read all of 2010's posts and her balance, compassion and insight really struck a chord.

No one is exempt from taking responsibility for the hurt and pain they cause - but that includes both partners and those suffering from BPD though it is a terribly destructive illness

For me that hardest things to accept as a partner from someone suffering from a suspected personality disorder are;

1. I always had the power and choice to say no and leave. No one forced me to accept her behaviour.

2. That despite the complexity and almost addictive nature of the relationship I stayed because of my own issues, my own sense of defectiveness and fear.

3. I did the best I could with the skills and knowledge that I had. And even if I known more about the disease and had more skills the outcome would most likely have been the same

I still struggle to accept this at times but viewing the ill as lepers or pariah doesn't help anyone get any better, including ourselves

Yes, we were volunteers and not victims.  We go into these relationships with our own issues, maybe wide-eyed and open hearted, not knowing initially that this person has a personality disorder, and their ability to be who they need to be to affect an attachment just makes it easier to get in deeper.  And then when it becomes clear that who they are is not who they presented themselves as in the beginning, we could have walked away, but by then the emotional hooks are in and we stay optimistic that we can get back to the bliss of the beginning.  And in the process, when the borderline flops to devaluation, we weather abuse, disrespect, emasculation, you name it, and eventually it ends.  Anger is a healthy stage of grieving, and is also an appropriate response to abuse, so it's common to beat up the evil borderline for a while, until we move beyond it, maybe depression is the next stage of grieving for us, and eventually, acceptance.  The important thing is to feel all of the emotions as we purge and heal, since running from them or repressing them won't get rid of them and they'll just show up somewhere else anyway.  So if we're pissed, let it fly, get it all out, on our way to a higher level of maturity and enlightenment, the ultimate gift of these relationships.

[Reforming]

fromheeltoheal,

There a lot of truth in what you say and I do realise that there needs to be space in this forum to allow people to work through these different stages.

I think BPD does a very good job of gently leading you into the realisation that your choices and actions played in integral part in what happened and that when the anger and grief eases the best way forward is to look at yourself, forgive but learn and try to understand your history.

I think some people can get stuck in one stage but then healing from something like this is not a linear thing.

I remember some advice here which says as we partners have been hurt in ways that we don't really understand. I think it isn't until the fog clear that you realise how much damage has been done.

You used the word "emasculation" and I certainly less of a man and less of a person but I do feel that I'm not only coming back to myself but hopefully stronger, more self aware and healthier me

There is hope and a future but you have to work at it.

[fromheeltoheal]

There is hope and a future but you have to work at it.

Yes, and more than hope, there's an opportunity to thrive like never before.  A borderline's knack of busting all boundaries and capitalizing on our weaknesses, for their own reasons mind you, mostly to try and ensure we won't leave, shines a spotlight on the areas that still need work, and then the pain of both the end of the relationship and the newfound awareness of our glaring faults motivates us to address them.  My ex will never be part of my life again, but the gifts she gave me by being her have informed and continue to inform major growth, and the future is brighter than ever, the ultimate gift of these relationships.

[Landslide2014]

Thank you Waifed, for putting this out there.  I found Skips response to be clear, helpful and to the point.  I appreciate the acknowledgement and understanding that venting often must take place for an awareness to occur. Ultimately the goal here is to achieve a level of peace and sanity that many of us have been unable to reach in the wake of a (what very well may be an impossible) relationship. When we point the finger at the BPD we take the focus off ourselves. The only way to healing to put the focus back on us and figure out what role we play in our own happiness. For me, once I realized that I was not the victim, rather, the one who permitted or allowed certain behaviors I was able to start to change. I don't believe my uBPDH can control his actions in the way I would like to think. Like any disease (disorder), his capabilities are limited (right now).  Even though anger and frustration visit my path right now, I feel the most empowered when I attribute my growth to the very fact that this person is in my life.  Also, when I am able to forgive.  While I am sad about the outcome, I am also extremely grateful for what I have learned. That being said, I still have to make my own choice of whether I can live with that.  It is not up to me to change him.  It is up to me to change me. And though I still wish I could be healthy and secure enough to be sane and not allow this situation to disrupt my being, I know at I must leave this relationship to reclaim my emotional health. That is right for me, not all.  I can always change my mind. This site has been a true blessing.  Thank you to all who contribute.