How to respond or not to respond? Please help.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Things have been going well for close to a month now.  No real dysregulations, etc.  Last night, he flips out on me because he asked his vistation schedule with his son, it switches month to month.  I told him what it was and he said I was wrong.  Because I didn't want to argue, I tol him to ask "name of his ex" and she would know because she keeps up on that.  He flipped out about how he shouldn't have to ask that "fat piece of sh!t b!tch" and how I never should have even suggested that because he should be able to talk to his wife about it.  I said I didn't mean anything by it and was just saying that since I obviously didn't know to check with her since the agreement is between them.  He proceeded to tell me how wrong I am on the schedule because he's the one that made it and it's never been that way before.  I said OK, that's fine. Sorry.  I tried to walk away and he freaked out more.  The entire evening was spent with him raging. 

This morning, I texted his ex.  Simply... . Hey lady, what nights does he have S11 this month?  She texts back the nights, I say thank you.  I print the text screen and take it to him when I go to pick him up to take him to work (we only have one running vehicle right now).  I give it to him and say.  I was right, you freaked out on me for no reason.  Then I walked to the other room to wait.  He dysregulates more and ends up in my face screaming at me to shut up and how date I ruin a new dat.  I said it's not ruined, just letting you know I'm tired of it.  Please get ready, I need to get back to work.  He gets in my face and screams at me to shut up and how I'm always looking to see the bad in him and I screamed back NO!  I WILL NOT SHUT UP FOR YOU TO BELITTLE ME ANYMORE!  and he pushed me to the floor.  I got up and I was crying and I said never again,  you will touch me never again and I went to leave.  so he grabbed me and I got free and went to leave.  He followed me out and said I wasn't going to leave him there, he needed to get to work and took the keys, so I walked back to work, 2 miles. 

I get to work and there is a text, I had ignored 2 calls from him, text says : All you wanna do is look for the bad in me and ride my ass about it, you could have just shown me the paper, but instead you just wanted to prove me wrong and you be right.

I haven't texted anything back.  I need to tell him to leave my keys in the truck so I can get it after work.  Do I reply anything or just about the keys?  Please give me guidence here.

[wishfulthinking]

Things have been going well for close to a month now.  No real dysregulations, etc.  Last night, he flips out on me because he asked his vistation schedule with his son, it switches month to month.  I told him what it was and he said I was wrong.  Because I didn't want to argue, I tol him to ask "name of his ex" and she would know because she keeps up on that.  He flipped out about how he shouldn't have to ask that "fat piece of sh!t b!tch" and how I never should have even suggested that because he should be able to talk to his wife about it.  I said I didn't mean anything by it and was just saying that since I obviously didn't know to check with her since the agreement is between them.  He proceeded to tell me how wrong I am on the schedule because he's the one that made it and it's never been that way before.  I said OK, that's fine. Sorry.  I tried to walk away and he freaked out more.  The entire evening was spent with him raging. 

This morning, I texted his ex.  Simply... . Hey lady, what nights does he have S11 this month?  She texts back the nights, I say thank you.  I print the text screen and take it to him when I go to pick him up to take him to work (we only have one running vehicle right now).  I give it to him and say.  I was right, you freaked out on me for no reason.  Then I walked to the other room to wait.  He dysregulates more and ends up in my face screaming at me to shut up and how date I ruin a new dat.  I said it's not ruined, just letting you know I'm tired of it.  Please get ready, I need to get back to work.  He gets in my face and screams at me to shut up and how I'm always looking to see the bad in him and I screamed back NO!  I WILL NOT SHUT UP FOR YOU TO BELITTLE ME ANYMORE!  and he pushed me to the floor.  I got up and I was crying and I said never again,  you will touch me never again and I went to leave.  so he grabbed me and I got free and went to leave.  He followed me out and said I wasn't going to leave him there, he needed to get to work and took the keys, so I walked back to work, 2 miles. 

I get to work and there is a text, I had ignored 2 calls from him, text says : All you wanna do is look for the bad in me and ride my ass about it, you could have just shown me the paper, but instead you just wanted to prove me wrong and you be right.

I haven't texted anything back.  I need to tell him to leave my keys in the truck so I can get it after work.  Do I reply anything or just about the keys?  Please give me guidence here.

[maxsterling]

I'd keep it just about the keys.  He sounds seriously dysregulated right now (physical violence), so I don't think any communication with him will go well until his emotions calm down.  Is this the first time he has been physically violent with you?

[wishfulthinking]

maxsterling,

It's the first time in a while he's touched me in anger.  It scared me today, when I was crying he told me to stop making an exhibition of it. 

He must me on break, he is texting : Every time I think I'm doing so good and being who you want me to be you ALWAYS have to tell me how much I'm not and how much we don't have a relationship, and you say half the things and don't mean it but you just want to hurt me, nice. I can't do anything else to try to make you happy. nothing. I'm sorry you're so miserable with someone who is always expressing how much they love you. You have a problem with accepting that. Not me. Why don't you try half of what I try to do for you.  And quit blaming.

Followed with : Go ahead and ignore me, your good at that, or say something mean back to me.

At this point, I'm still silent.  Thing is, he says the most horrible, mean, vile, offensive things at me when he is raging.  I never call him names or anything, I just take it and agree with everything he says hoping it will end soon.  He gets mad about that, because he says it means I'm not passionate about us and don't care.  This morning was the first time I reacted back to him in months.  I can't take it anymore.  I'm tired.

[seeking balance]

Hi Wishfulthinking,

Sorry you are having such a stressful time of it - it really can be crazy making in the middle of it all.

Right now - how are you emotionally - are you a bit dysregulated yourself after all the trauma?  Do you have tools that you use to balance yourself so you can respond to him in a more mindful manner?  When you are mindful it is much easier to work with step 1 - stopping the bleeding.

Looking to the right (choosing a pat) - Step 1 is Stop the bleeding

What does it mean in this context to "stop the bleeding"? It means to end the destructive, pointless, circular miscommunications with your partner. This can only happen when one party stops. If your partner has BPD or BPD traits, this is not likely to happen unless you initiate it and stay strong. For you to do that, you must first believe that "stopping the bleeding" is in your best interest - and far more important than all the things that are driving the cycle of conflict.

Unless there is physical abuse, stopping the bleeding is more important.

How do we stop the bleeding? First, we stop fighting back. This goes beyond just 'not arguing'. It includes: no pouting, no passive aggressiveness, no silent treatment, no saying "whatever".

Second, we use proven communication techniques. Everyone wants to be heard and understood. After food and shelter it is one of the more basic of human needs. Giving this to the pwBPD (or with BPD traits) is a powerful way to break down the immediate trauma. It is possible to stop making things worse and it begins with learning a new way of responding and listening. And it includes learning how to ask for what we want in a constructive way.

There is a formula for speaking with someone that has a better chance of success if used properly. Our attitude, tone of voice and body language has a huge impact on how our message is interpreted.

Communication techniques are discussed here. They take practice. They take time to work. Be patient. You may get frustrated, but keep trying as the payoff could be a new, healthier relationship.

Peace,

SB

[Clearmind]

Do you have a safe house?

Not a good situation wishful. Hugs

[wishfulthinking]

Clearmind, I think I'm in control of myself right now.  I haven't replied at all because I'm trying to be mindful of how I feel and my reactions.  I don't want to make things worse.  At this point, I'm not sure if I even want to smooth things over because I'm tired of being treated like this.  I go back and forth a lot because of his rages, but the more times he rages, the less I want to go back.  It's getting to the point where I refuse to take anymore.  I'm pissed and I don't feel I owe him anything or any type of validation at this moment because it's always about him and how he feels and what I did that caused him to act beyond his control.  I'm tired of his lack of control always being my fault.  I'm tired of what he does wrong he tried to accuse me of.  I'm tired, just tired.  I'm at work and all I want to do is cry.  But I can't. I've been here 11 years and can't afford to lose my job and he's caused enough problems that I've been called in the office once over it.

[maxsterling]

when I was crying he told me to stop making an exhibition of it. 

Yep, I've hear this one too.  Tears welling up, emotionally distraught, hurting and confused like hell, and they invalidate the hell out of you by saying "quit crying" or "I don't want to see your tears"

Every time I think I'm doing so good and being who you want me to be you ALWAYS have to tell me how much I'm not and how much we don't have a relationship, and you say half the things and don't mean it but you just want to hurt me, nice.

More invalidation on his end.

Go ahead and ignore me, your good at that, or say something mean back to me.

At this point, I'm still silent.  Thing is, he says the most horrible, mean, vile, offensive things at me when he is raging.  I never call him names or anything, I just take it and agree with everything he says hoping it will end soon.  He gets mad about that, because he says it means I'm not passionate about us and don't care.  This morning was the first time I reacted back to him in months.  I can't take it anymore.  I'm tired.

That's pretty much word for word what goes on for me when she is raging.  ANd it sounds like my reaction is pretty much the same as yours - let the rage go on and hope it ends soon. She claims I did something pure evil to her.  the reality?  Doesn't matter what I do or say, because I'm painted black, and anything I do is interpreted as evil.  My option?  Don't respond.  She thinks that's evil, too, but at least I have removed myself from her wrath.  And she does the same thing - if I don't respond, she says it is because I don't care (more invalidation on her end).

[wishfulthinking]

I need my vehicle (yes mine, his is in the back of the house ((which is also mine, I've paid and lived there 12 years, he just moved in in May)) because he hasn't paid taxes for legal plates in 3 years and it's up for repo because I quit paying the payment he couldn't make).  So still text about the keys?  I can have a co-worker drop me off but I don't want to see him.

[seeking balance]

  I'm pissed and I don't feel I owe him anything or any type of validation at this moment because it's always about him and how he feels and what I did that caused him to act beyond his control.  I'm tired of his lack of control always being my fault.  I'm tired of what he does wrong he tried to accuse me of.  I'm tired, just tired.

Give yourself some rest then - honestly, living with a mentally ill person is very very exhausting.  Getting your energy to a level where you can be mindful in communication is YOU stopping the bleeding.

I am having a hard time following the tactical part of the question (and that is me not in the middle of it, I can only imagine how spent you are) - exactly what is the question/response critical at the moment.  We can work together to help communicate in a way that gives you a bit of the space you so need.

[seeking balance]

I just asked this ;-)

I need my vehicle (yes mine, his is in the back of the house ((which is also mine, I've paid and lived there 12 years, he just moved in in May)) because he hasn't paid taxes for legal plates in 3 years and it's up for repo because I quit paying the payment he couldn't make).  So still text about the keys?  I can have a co-worker drop me off but I don't want to see him.

Is he the only one with the keys or is there another set somewhere?

[wishfulthinking]

Seeking balance, thank you for your input and wanting to help my situation.  Thank you for understanding.  You all have no idea (or I bet actually you do... . ) what it means to know there is support.

There is only one set of keys.  He lost the other set.  It's hard to rest when he refuses to leave and I have no family to go to.  All my family are deceased.  I can't afford a hotel room.  I'm behind on my car payment, 3 credit cards, my internet, my daughter's tutor, my electric, and I turned off the satellite already.

[wishfulthinking]

I guess I'm more mentally flustered and angry than I realize... . sorry.

[maxsterling]

These are great tips, but I feel there needs to be a balance of reality.

Unless there is physical abuse, stopping the bleeding is more important.  

There is physical abuse in this case.  And I also think that if there was ever physical abuse in the relationship, we must take different precautions to protect ourselves.  I know in my case, if things get to the point of raging or any kind of abuse, I can't put it on me to stop the bleeding - I don't feel safe anymore.  At that point, it's no longer important to me if the relationship is "saved" or if I invalidate her by leaving or not responding.  What's important to me is not to be hit or have things thrown at me again.

How do we stop the bleeding? First, we stop fighting back. This goes beyond just 'not arguing'. It includes: no pouting, no passive aggressiveness, no silent treatment, no saying "whatever".

Definitely good tips.  But that's a ton of work and sometimes for me it feels like I have to overcome my emotions in order to accomplish this, and that's soo hard when you feel wounded to not pout a little or give a little silent treatment.  Interestingly, all of the above are what she does to me when she is upset.  

Second, we use proven communication techniques. Everyone wants to be heard and understood. After food and shelter it is one of the more basic of human needs. Giving this to the pwBPD (or with BPD traits) is a powerful way to break down the immediate trauma. It is possible to stop making things worse and it begins with learning a new way of responding and listening. And it includes learning how to ask for what we want in a constructive way.

There is a formula for speaking with someone that has a better chance of success if used properly. Our attitude, tone of voice and body language has a huge impact on how our message is interpreted.

Communication techniques are discussed here. They take practice. They take time to work. Be patient. You may get frustrated, but keep trying as the payoff could be a new, healthier relationship.

The above is quite true and has helped tremendously, but takes work.  You have to let them know you are listening, and that you care.  I'm still working on how to ask for what I want in a constructive way, because I still live with fear of anything causing a complete meltdown.  Sometimes she will take what I want with difficulty, no matter how I say it.  The body language and facial expressions are crucial, though.

The above tools are great, but I think we need to get to a point where we decide we want to work on things before they are helpful.  If we are in a point of hurting and are considering leaving as an option, it's much harder to put forth the effort when you feel the effort isn't reciprocated by the pwBPD.

[wishfulthinking]

I've tried SET, DEARMAN, validation in general... . I've basically sold myself to make what he wants so he never gets mad.  Doesn't stop anything.  I saw a T (we both started, but he stopped after 2 visits) who basically dianosed him with BPD and NPD after just seeing him the 2 times because he was so dysregulated during the second one and showed the T how it is all about him.  He got mad the T called him out on it and now refuses to go back.  the T and I have had more visits and he tells me that BPD is managable, but add in the NPD and I'm in for a more difficult time... . I need to figure out how willing I am to deal with this and today, I'm not willing at all.  Pushing me, literally, is my dealbreaker today.  I need a boundary and I'm not sure how to enforce it, but I'm not sure I want to, either.  I hate this.  I hate this so much.

[seeking balance]

Maxsterling, thanks for your input.  The parts you pulled out and commented on are directly from the bpdfamily.com website when you click Stop the Bleeding - it really is best served as a guideline for wishfulthinking to use in resolving her situation. 

Wishfulthinking - let's get to the tactical so you can have a break... . there is no need to apologize for being hurt and frustrated, we have been there.  Regarding SET and DEARMAN - we can work on this later, right now let's get you some breathing room.

Again, I don't want to assume I fully understand, so bear with me while I ask questions 

So, You need your truck to get to and from work and he has the keys.  Are you both living in the same house - I am sorta confused right now.

[wishfulthinking]

Seeking balance,

Yes, we live together as of right now.  I have 3 vehicles he has 1, his is not licensed so can't be driven and 2 of mine have broken down recently in need of very major repairs that I just can't afford right now, so we've been juggling getting us both to work with one vehicle.  Mostly with me taking my half hour lunch to go get him and take him because when I leave work I have to go straight to the school to pick up my daughter.

I went today to take him and that's when we had today's fight and when he took the keys I walked back to work truckless.

[wishfulthinking]

I texted him to leave the keys in the console. 

He texted back ok and there is $4 in the seat for gas. 

I texted back no thank you, I'll take care of it.

He texted back: Just like that, no reason to be like that, proof that you want to be hateful and prolong an argument. You so that stuff way to much, just like this morning when you threw the paper on the dresser, and then wouldnt even let me get out of my mouth an apology. You kept talking, and those are the times i tell you shut up because you wouldnt let me finish and you kept on. Put the gas in and quit segregating our family like this, and stop rejecting what ive worked so hard to please you with an doing what a husband is suppose to do.

Following, I apologize for the language coming up, I'm quoting him and what he says when he rages...

I texted back (because I just can't deal anymore, I'm done right now, I know I shouldn't have, but I don't want anything from him besides him to realize he was WRONG in pushing me, it's not acceptable and he won't own it. I'm fed up): I didn't throw the paper. I set it on your jeans and walked in the other room to get my lunch. You weren't apologizing you we're only telling me how wrong I was for not forgetting yesterday because today's a new day. I won't shut up because you say so anymore. You don't own me. I'm not a puppet. You can go find one of those women you yelled at me about last night that'll be happy to be yelled at, belittled, called wh@re, b!tch, sl&t, c&nt, moth3rf&cker, ahole, f&cking this f&cking that and be literally pushed around like they don't mean sh!t.

[Skip]

It really important to stop fighting before someone gets hurt or ends up on the street.

This is all that matters right now.

The most important thing is to deescalate.  You know how to do that.

He is making overtures to step back. That's good.  You can do the same.

I'd encourage you to call a truce and ask if this can be discussed later.

However you want to deal with this in the long run needs to wait for tomorrow or the next day.

[wishfulthinking]

I understand Skip.  I normally try very hard to keep my mouth shut and not say anything at all.  Typically after he's yelled at me for around an hour or so, as long as I don't respond, he will stop.  I yelled back today because I'm tired of him screaming at me in my face and never allowing me to leave the room or stop or walk away from the rage.  He raged at me for hours off and on last night and said horrible things that I just said yes, no, and thank you to or did not respond at all.  I'm fed up with the abuse. I snapped and told him no more will I be quiet, no more will he own me.  I mean that.  If he can't take it, then he can leave.

Also, on the following, I don't accuse him of cheating, I just have made remarks of him never doing anything lately except pawing at my breasts or groping them. He never makes love to me anymore and I have to beg for it if it happens.  He used to be on me constantly. I made a remark here and there that I'm starting to think he's getting it elsewhere and as long as I have my boobs, he's happy.

His text response to mine: Im not a puppet either! And im SICK of you always overlooking the good i do, and also keep accusing me of cheating or not being loyal, it discusting! If you loved me the same maybe you would understand that. But you don't. Once again, overlook your fault and blame it on me, do you ever stop? You dont want this marriage and never have, you want out of it but just wont say it, i want it more than anything, and all you so is look fir a reson to blame me for something so that you can say its done and over. Admit you dont want me and ill leave, but ifthats not what you want, then learn hiw to control that hurtful mouth and stop! You woke up with attitude this morning and just waited for a reson to jump me. Quit being so GODDAMN angry, you have Wayyyy to much to be happy for. You just got to stop and look around and quit living in the past with your ex husband and the few bad months we had

[seeking balance]

I went today to take him and that's when we had today's fight and when he took the keys I walked back to work truckless.

Ok - thank you for explaining the living and driving arrangements.

Since you have your keys, this tactical part is handled.

Skip really does make a valid point - deescalating, focusing on your part - we can help you, but not reacting at all to him is really really hard and takes discipline.  This leads to the next part:

Regarding the physical altercation - do you have any place to stay so you can get your bearings?  Right now, you are as wound up as he is and before things can get any better (that doesn't even mean reconciling, simply less explosive) one of you has to cool down and unwind.  Do you think you will be able to unwind staying under the same roof right now?

[wishfulthinking]

I don't have my keys yet.  He took them and took the truck.  I walked back to work.  I have to have a co-worker drop me off at the truck to get it and he said he would put the keys in the console.  Whether he will or not, IDK.

I have no where to go.  He's distanced me from my friends and I have no family.  My best friend lives across the street from me, so that's not a safe place where he wouldn't bother me.

He has friends and family in this city.  He refuses to go.

[Skip]

I understand Skip.  I normally try very hard to keep my mouth shut and not say anything at all.  Typically after he's yelled at me for around an hour or so, as long as I don't respond, he will stop.  I yelled back today because I'm tired of him screaming at me in my face and never allowing me to leave the room or stop or walk away from the rage.  He raged at me for hours off and on last night and said horrible things that I just said yes, no, and thank you to or did not respond at all.  I'm fed up with the abuse. I snapped and told him no more will I be quiet, no more will he own me.  I mean that.  If he can't take it, then he can leave.

And maybe you will decide to leave - but unless you are planing to go to a shelter letting him have the house and vehicles - you will be heading home and if you escalate this you could get hurt.

Are you are planing to go to a shelter and let him have the house and vehicles today?

If not, calm this.  Go for safety first and foremost.  No fight is worth this.  You know how to do this.

When its calm and the high emotion has passed, you can explore your options with everyone here, the DV shelter, a lawyer, him.

[maxsterling]

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this.  You are correct in that you don't deserve to get treated this way.

When you replied "no thanks' to the $4 gas money - it just opened the door for more abuse.  I'm slowly learning that the hard way.  Even though you are angry at him (and you have every right to be!), that is what you are expressing with that reply, and that is when he throws it back at you and hurts you further.  You are dealing with a pwBPD.  You can't win a rational argument with an irrational mind.  You can't change his emotions.  Your response was aggressive, and his response is aggression in return.  A better response would have been, "thanks, and I appreciate your offer for gas money."  You still can refuse to use the money - just leave it where he left it - but more than likely a response like that would have kept the door shut against an angry response.  

It's hard not to defend, but if you want to stop the angry responses, that's what you have to do.  I see the same cycle in my r/s.  She gets mad about something, I defend, she uses my defense against me, things get worse, I get hurt worse, etc, etc.  The best thing I can do is say, "I see you are upset, and I am not going to deal with this while you are upset."  Leave it at that, say no more, and let her live with herself.  Sure she will say some angry things, but at least I am no longer a participant.    

[wishfulthinking]

No, I am not planning on going to a shelter.  If I vacate my house, he can file an order to not allow me back in by issue of abandonment that can take 30 days or more to resolve.  The police have told me this.  I own the house.   I own the vehicles.  He lived in an apartment with very little furniture when I met him.  I won't allow him to live in MY house while I reside in a shelter when the house is all my daughter has ever known.  I work my butt off to make that payment and he has never helped a dime.  He gave me $60 for the first time ever last week.  I used on a bill right away so when he asked for it back, I could honestly say I didn't have it.

I really understand, and I really try hard not to react and to be quiet and let things go.  To my detriment most of the time, I might add.  He likes to throw in my face these times he "won" an argument, but it's only because I didn't respond, not that I agreed.  I still never say anything.  

[wishfulthinking]

Yes, maxsterling, I know I shouldn't have turned down the gas money.  If I had taken it, he would make a huge ordeal about how he paid to put gas in the truck and I need to be more grateful.  These things are thrown in my face regularly and I chose a different response than usual in hopes to not have to "owe" him anything.  I was wrong in my choice.

[seeking balance]

If you are intent on staying in the house and you are admitting both you and he are highly triggered right now, are you prepared to call the police if he physically assaults you?

[wishfulthinking]

Yes, I've had to do it twice already.  He is still going to court over it.

[seeking balance]

Yes, I've had to do it twice already.  He is still going to court over it.

Good

So that I understand correctly, you have already pressed charges 2 times for domestic violence and he still lives in your home that you own?

[Skip]

It sounds like you can't let go of the fight right now - its understandable.

It's not safe to go home if you have/are escalating.

Where else can you go that, in itself, won't escalate this?  Can you go over to the neighbors and just tell him you're upset and need to cool off?

[maxsterling]

It sounds like you are done with the r/s, am I correct?  Or at least 90% sure this is it?  

First of all, your safety is most important.  Right now I would not worry so much about whether or not he is in your house or driving your car.  You are correct in that you deserve those things - after all, they are yours!  I'd be pissed too if I had to leave MY house and MY car just to be safe.  I have a "safe house" with my friend, and it feels totally wrong that I would have to leave my house when she is raging, but I know that's what I need to do.  Get yourself to a safe place, then deal with the rest.  By "safe place" I don't just mean physically, but emotionally, too.  Let yourself calm down.  Safety first.  You have time to deal with the house and car.

Second, since it is YOUR house, I am pretty sure you can go to the court or police and get a restraining order and have him removed.  He has no right to stay there.  It may be the final nail for the r/s, but it sounds like where this is headed, anyway.  And since he has been in trouble for assaulting you before, if you called the police and filed another assault charge (he did assault you by pushing you), he may be arrested, thus giving you safety and space.