Alienation and surnames...

[ennie]

I want to get suggestions about a certain insidious form of alienation that is happening with my stepdaughters. 

SD13 and SD9's BPDmom has engaged in all kinds of alienating behaviors from day one.  Some are subtle, like suggesting to the kids that when they are ill they should be with mom because she takes better care of them (in truth, she is not a great caretaker, no bedtimes and forgets medication, but she is very freaked out about illness and often takes them to the hospital when they are ill).  Other examples are more extreme and over, ranting and raving about how terrible their dad is (my husband) because DH is "forcing" her to live in this state and ruining their lives, and she even has gone so far as to tell SD9 that she will give her gifts if she testifies against DH, during the last custody litigation 2 years ago. 

During this time, DH has kept 50/50 custody (he has never had less than 50/50), and the girls really love him.  For SD13, who is very enmeshed with mom, she has come to say she wants to live with mom, but she is very loving with her dad, with me, and other than on transition days, she seems very happy here.  Almost every teen conflict that happens (and she is pretty argumentative, mostly in a respectful way) ends with her being loving, apologizing, and being a pretty amazing teen.  For SD9, she has always said that she loves all her parents the same (including me), and that she just needs her mommy in a different way, but that she wants to live with everyone the same amount, just that she would prefer if we all lived in the same house.     As she has grown older, she has started to realize that probably would not work. Both girls are very expressive and loving, though SD13 is going through a phase of not telling me she loves me (which she used to do often), but also doing amazing things for me and being especially close to me. 

Lately, the alienation has been a little more relaxed.  However, both girls have been using their mother's maiden name while at moms house.  This is complicated by the fact that all of us have somewhat feminist values, and while both girls have had their father's surname all their lives, mom did not marry him and take his name until SD13 was 4 years old; and when I married him, I chose to keep my last name.  Further complicating the issue is that while mom has gone back to using her maiden name, she also has not obtained a legal name change, as we learned last year when she was arrested for drunk driving in her former, married name.  I think we all feel that it is somewhat arbitrary that in our culture, children get their father's surname; and yet, it is clear that these kids DO have their dad's surname, and clear that mom is either passively or actively encouraging them to use her name instead while at her home.

For SD9, this is mostly just trying to be an ally to her sister and mom to not be left out and divided from them while at mom's house.  When DH explained to her that kids do not often change their names away from dad's unless something bad happens, she said she did not know and was really sorry, but was just trying to make mommy happy.  I think she has mostly stopped. 


For SD13, who is completely enmeshed with mom, this is a more overt statement.  She is really clear (at least when she arrives from her mom's, or after calling her mom, or when mom is having a hard time) that she wants to live at her mom's and not with us.  After she makes her "stand," she seems to love it here, and has lots of long term projects.  But the name thing is getting extreme.  She has an email address in her mom's surname; all her school supplies say her mom's name, though at school they use her legal name, which is her dad's surname. 

I am really uncomfortable with this; DH has been afraid of confrontation, so has not really address the issue.  I think both of us think the "right" thing to do would be for him to bring it up with BPDmom and try to find out what she is doing about this, and let her know it seems stressful for the kids... . but of course, she has BPD, so is not at all rationale about these kinds of things, so DH really does not want to deal with her about it.    She thinks the kids should have more "choice," and that if they want to use her name, that is great! Though she has not herself changed her name to her maiden name officially.  SD13 is really still a kid, so he does not want to take a stand there.

What do you all think he/we should do?  I know some say that using another name can be a pre-curser to kidnapping, though I doubt she would do that.  Her style is to play the victim, and manipulate the kids into protecting her and proving their love by taking her name and her side, and when they do not, she threatens suicide and to abandon them.  They both almost never take the risk of being independent as a result; SD13 still often sleeps in her mother's bed. 

We have been just figuring it was a stage, how kids want to adopt a different name.  But it has become a problem now that the kids are more independent and representing themselves with a different name while at mom's. 

Suggestions? 

[Nope]

The answer may be simpler than you think. BPDmom may be using her maiden name because that's what she wants to do and she doesn't want to go through the hassle of changing it legally and having to get all her supporting documents changed again. People do that. Not all people, but some.

From the perspective of the kids, if they have any friends or peer groups or are in any situation where writing their full name comes up it may just be uncomfortable to not have the same last name as their mom. They may not feel like it's the rest of the worlds business that their parents are divorced.

I will be a first time bride in my thirties when DF and I get married. The major reason I'm going to take his name is so that I have the same name as the kids so that when I take them anywhere I don't have to deal with long explanations.

[Thunderstruck]

I'm interested to hear what suggestions people have because I'm in a similar situation. SD9 has both my SO (her father)'s last name and her uBPDbm's last name hyphenated. Sometime during the four months when BPDbm wasn't letting SO see SD9, SD9 got it in her head that "she" wanted to drop SO's last name and only use BPDbm's last name. Her reason was because it is "a boy's name" (her mother has a "boy's name" for a first name, but this reasoning doesn't seem to hit home). I've also mentioned about how she has TWO parents and they both chose her full name because it represents both branches of her family but that hasn't made an impact either. SD9 signs all her schoolwork with BPDbm's surname.

[ennie]

Well, the place this is really coming up is in school, and everyone is in the same class their whole lives, so it is not that they want people to know they are mom's daughter.  It is completely non-confusing, and all the kids know each others' life stories.   For SD13, it is really clear that it is a way of showing allegiance to mom; for SD9 I think it is much more just trying to be mom's daughter at moms.  This would be no big thing, but for the fact that now SD13 is doing things at mom's house online without dad's permission, using a different name, when mom and dad have the agreement in their parenting plan that SD13 must have both parents' permission for online stuff.  So it really gets confusing.  And, that it is done with attitude and secrecy.  One of the big challenges of BPDmom is she tells the kids to NEVER tell what happens at her house, so they are hiding their stuff that has mom's name at our house, and it gets really awkward and uncomfortable for their dad who is just trying to figure out what is the most helpful approach.  I do not think it is ever good for kids to feel like they are being encouraged to do something "bad" that they are supposed to hide from their parents, especially bio parents. There is always guilt. 

My sense is that it would be great if DH could make a decision about how he wants to address it, e.g. what he actually wants, and then to talk with them and let them know that they do not need to be secret and it is fine for them to use mom's name in whatever context. 

I talked to SD9, as she brought it up with me, and basically told her that her dad's name is her legal name, so she should probably use that on papers, but that she can call herself what she wants at mom's, mommy's in charge there but she still has the same legal name.  I think this made sense to her.  But she was surprised, and said, "Wow, I did not know that!  I was not sure about which name to use." We also talked about how it would be fine for kids to have mom's name, not dads, but that just was not the way her parents decided to do things. 

As to why mom is using two names without doing a name change,  neither DH nor I have an issue with her name choice--it is really up to her--except that she is using it to hide her DUIs from the court, as her name on the legal court filings is her maiden name, but the arrest name is her married name, so it has not been showing up when she applies for things or when custody proceedings were happening.  Now that we know, we can figure it out, but there was a bit of time there where things were being overlooked that were a pretty big deal.  But she can use any name she wants. 

For me, it is really about helping DH to make a choice about how he wants to address this, and encouraging him to communicate with the kids so they do not feel like they are sneaking and doing what mom wants at dad's house without telling him.  DH has been uncomfortable with it for awhile, and I think the kids get this, but also mom is VERY paranoid and secretive, so it makes it easy to read daddy's discomfort as support for mommy's story that usually is that mommy is persecuted by others.   This does not feel good to the kids, to have to hide and deceive people they love to prove loyalty to mom.  So what we often do with things is just demystify and support the kids; "We know that sometimes you got to the swimming pool by yourselves when at mommy's; you do not have to hide that, it is mommy's choice where you go at her house, not ours.  But it sounds like fun!" 

And so forth. 

[Nope]

It sounds like you have the best approach to take with the kids. "We know you do it a different way there, and that is OK. But this is how we do this here."

We are having the same problem. The kids are told not to tell us things. Everything over there is a big secret. But there is so much distance that we have no idea the extent of what is being hidden. All we can do is validate what the children are experiencing and remember that we have no control over what BPDmom does and recognize that the kids are between a rock and a hard place in all of this.

[ennie]

It is just tricky with the names, as SD13 now has email in her name and so forth with different names.  Also, I wonder about the sense of integration for the kids in having a different identity in each home.  SD13 has always dealt with the stress of transition and mom's mental illness by splitting, sometimes in an almost dissociative way.  She is just now starting to integrate who she is in both homes, and I actually see her using her mom's name in both homes sometimes as a positive step in this area. 

As for SD9, she has always been much more integrated thought it causes more pain, it seems more healthy.  She was far less traumatized by mom as a small child.  SD13 saw mom beating dad pretty often as a child, was abandoned by mom at times during nursing, and had other major trauma, whereas things have been better during SD9's key years.  So she will tell mom she loves daddy, mommy, and ennie, and will deal with mom being very upset, but will stick with that truth.  She will compensate in other ways, but she is much less willing to pretend she is not the person she is.  SD13 is hardwired to tell people what they want to hear, no matter what it is and how far from the truth it is. 

So I think I am a little more worried about SD9, who is starting to separate who she is at each home.  I also am just concerned about DH feeling bad about it and not figuring out where he stands and how he feels.  So he unconsciously communicates disapproval when the issue comes up, which reinforces their sense of secrecy, betrayal of daddy, and shame about that. 

[Deb]

My oldest 2 nieces used their mother's maiden name. Not because they wanted to, buit because they had no choice. My dBPD sister insisted on it and would not allow them to even mention their dads. They each have different fathers. Their legal names were that of their fathers. Only when one turned 18, did she use her dad's last name. The other, made a stand at age 16, when her mother remarried (again) and changed her name. So it may be partly because they have no choice at moms. Or were told something different.  Just a thought.

[ennie]

Yes, that is more what I am thinking.  Only, because (to use the terminology of the book Children of Borderline mothers) she is more of a "waif/witch" and less of a pure "witch" or "queen," she would more likely get the kids to use her name by threatening victimhood: "How could you use the name of someone who is forcing us to live in this state and be miserable, when I am the person who gave you birth! If you do not love me, I might as well leave you here and go be happy in [other state]!" 


Or something like that.   But who knows, really? 

[PleaseValidate]

Hi ennie,

I do not post on this board but as an adult child of a BPDMO, i thought it might be helpful to hear my story. It seems similar to what is happening to your children and happened to Deb 's nieces. Especially w regard to the outcome. In addition to this post, it may comfort you to know that i have known at least 4 people who have changed their name so they no longer feel associated w their abuser. This is my cut and paste from another board:


"My BPDmo got divorced when I was about 2 and [legally] went back to her maiden name immediately. Apparently, so she tells me but I don't remember, she used to ask me if I wanted to change my name to hers and I would cry and scream, "NOO!" Well, one day in 3rd grade she asked and I wanted to please her so badly, I agreed. 

She has a very proper Irish last name but I always thought it was ugly (and for a little kid, it brings images of a fat animal.) My original last name, and one I reverted to is Portuguese and since I was like 6, she had been telling me I'd never get a job or get a husband w such an "ethnic" name. (Oh, and just for fun, her and her brothers whom i lived with would "jokingly" call me a "Spic," say i have "a little n*gger blood," etc.)... .

... . When I'm 16, I start working [need to get an "official document change" on my ss card and birth cert so i can get a drivers license w her surname] im supposed to go to court to LEGALLY change my name. Everyone just accepted my using her last name prior. I refused to go to court.  [Although I am an only child and we were very enmeshed, by this time I was strong enough to stick up for myself and the possible "legality" then made it real for me.]

[I remember her asking my school what she had to do to change my name and they said "just start calling her that." Same with all of my medical records.]

It was odd to tell teachers at school and peers in the 11th grade that I was changing my name [back to my ORIGINAL surname] a lot of them still remember my old name from elementary school, however, so it wasn't too bad. [Frankly, the teachers more than the kids me feel like an outcast from it. My mother was the one who notified the school about it in the third grade. FYI- this was all in the '90s]

When I got married I kept my maiden name because I feel I worked so hard to keep it... .  "


My point is, I think this will all work itself out. Ultimately, the more I was pushed to change, the more i resisted.

And i STILL experiment w name changes once in a while- maybe move my last to middle, use Grams maiden, etc. Thinking about it now, I'm almost glad I had the experience to really examine/process this facet of "identity" and what it means to me... .

If your daughters are in any way the analytically type as I was, many factors will go into their ultimate decisions. For me, one major factor was resenting my BPDMO manipulation. A few of the others: ethnicity (I liked sounding more "exotic" since her fam already made me an outcast), initials, (JW v JS), and syllable count (2 v 3). A lot of these sound like typical teen think which it was. I did have one other major factor. Her dad was an A hole who abandoned his family so why should anyone be honoring HIM? And as much as my Crazy tried to tell me my dad was an A hole too, it didn't work.


I hope this helps and/or comforts you in some way and I apologize for the length. Sometimes I read this board and just want to scream out to all of you, ":)ONT WORRY! FAST FWD ABOUT A DECADE AND THE KIDS WILL FIGURE THEM OUT!"

 

[NorthernGirl]

I hope this helps and/or comforts you in some way and I apologize for the length. Sometimes I read this board and just want to scream out to all of you, ":)ONT WORRY! FAST FWD ABOUT A DECADE AND THE KIDS WILL FIGURE THEM OUT!"

Thanks PleaseValidate for reminding us of this! Like Ennie, I'm a stepmom to kids with a BPD mom. My stepkids are adults now (although the youngest has special needs so will always need support). It is hard to watch things that their mom does and not step in sometimes, but I have learned that sometimes we just have to let things play out so the kids learn themselves.

In our case, DH's ex tried to get the youngest to change his last name to hers. He said he felt sad for her because "none of us have her last name". I think she was likely using guilt and manipulation given his comments to us, and unfortunately the youngest is very susceptible to that because of his disability. He is very trusting of most people. When he realized one day that she had lied to him, he was shocked and asked "why would my own mom lie?" Tough question.

That was a few years ago now. The youngest never changed his name, but for a few years he did end up changing his email name to an obscure name he'd heard on TV (at the time we said we thought he liked how exotic it sounded -- so interesting given your comment PleaseValidate). I think one reason he didn't change his last name was because his brothers weren't going to, and he associates very strongly with them.

I think changing his email name helped him play a little with what that would feel like and in the end, he made up his own mind to keep his last name. Pretty creative really. And in the end, I think his mom just dropped it because he didn't jump to please her right away.

It's not the same situation you are in Ennie, but it does show that sometimes these things just work their way out -- as PleaseValidate says.

[ennie]

Hi ennie,

I do not post on this board but as an adult child of a BPDMO, i thought it might be helpful to hear my story.

Thanks so much!  I sometimes lurk on your board just to hear you folks say this kind of thing!  I do really sense that my SDs get it... . my oldest SD (almost 14) is totally enmeshed, so she never says "boo" about mom, but ALL of the interpersonal issues she has with friends sound like she is talking about her mom, and she so wants to get my take on all of this.  "I just have a hard time with friends who are not honest about things, who have tons of drama, and switch their stories all the time!"... . and so on. 

My younger SD is more direct, but has learned the hard way to never speak honestly about mom in front of her sister. SD10 loves her mom, but wonders why she lies, why she gets so angry. 

SD14 seems to be working a lot of this out with me, and this is hard, but also an honor.  I am so proud of both my SDs for being able to maintain some of their own integrity even while trying so hard to please mom.  They could have rejected their dad as mom wanted, and it would have been easier to reject me, their stepmom.  Mom really wanted that.  But they really love us, express it clearly and often, and are really willing to learn the tools with us that they will need to do the kind of questioning you are describing. 

For me, I do not think I am the greatest parent--I am really good at some parts of it, like loving them through all of it and owning my feelings, not using blame and judgement to manipulate even when that is the flavor of the day and I have really had enough... . but I also get really tired of the meanness when a BPD person is involved, and I get frazzled by being with the kids for days in a row and then I either need a break, or I am cranky and not as fun.  So it is really amazing that even with all my faults, SD14 is really starting to show me how much she really loves me and values me as a parent. She has always communicated her love very well.  SD10 is just unequivocal in her love for all her parents, which for her includes me. 

I really see both girls being so wise and emotionally intelligent, able to say how they feel and apologize when their words hurt others, to be able to see themselves and communicate their needs to others.  I think they will be fine, too! I was not sure a few years ago, but now I am 7 years into their lives, and I am really seeing how great and amazing they both are, and I know they can do it!

But it is scary to go through this with them, all the pain and dishonesty.  So it is really great to hear a little bit from "the other side" of childhood. 

Thanks!

[Free One]

I am sorry if this offends, but it's just my opinion, so take what you will.

I think this situation is extremely confusing and unhealthy for the kids. We do not live in a society where one just gets to pick their name to fit whatever circumstance. This situation is not a feminist example of keeping a last name. It's manipulative BPD behavior that is alienating and confusing the kids in terms of developing their own identities. It is only causing a bigger divide between the two houses and really forcing them to create two seperate lives, which I just think is so unhealthy at their ages.

I know you are frustrated by it.

I think you have two options. You set a clear boundary with mom, girls, school, etc. that their LEGAL name will be used. Period.

Or, you tell mom she is welcome to use her maiden name for the girls' last name once she has it legally changed, at her own expense (maybe not what dad wants, but at least it would take the pressure off the girls). Stay strong with this, that the maiden name is not to be used until then. Chances are, she won't make the effort.

In regards to the school, with 50/50 custody, there is no reason the maiden name should be used. Dad should be in contact with the school enough to make it clear what their name legally is.

[ForeverDad]

These are children we're talking about.  My understanding is that they generally don't get a voice in legally changing their names, at least not if one parent opposes a change.  A legal name change means court and a judge is less likely to go against an involved parent's wishes and force a change anyway.  If possible I would suggest the children and other parent be reminded put it off, it can be done at the age of majority - 18 in the USA.

Side point, I have a close relative who changed her name - she added a middle name because she didn't have a middle name and as a nurse she was required to use 3 legal initials on her paperwork.  So she picked a name she had always liked.  But she did it as an adult.