can courts order counseling for BPD parents?

[ShannonRT]

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but DF and I are just getting into the real "crazy" now that I'm around... .

Can BPD bioMoms be ordered to go to counseling by the courts?

She really seems to be spiraling out of control over the last six months or so and once we are married, I'm afraid things will just get worse.

But I'm not sure suing her for full custody is the right answer either right now. That may truly send her over the edge. She has made statements indicating that her kids are all she has to live for, etc.

And honestly, the kids do need their Mom. But they need a healthy Mom. She needs therapy. A lot of therapy.

[Turkish]

But I'm not sure suing her for full custody is the right answer either right now. That may truly send her over the edge. She has made statements indicating that her kids are all she has to live for, etc.

Mine basically telegraphed this months ago on FB. I know she thinks this way overall, too, based upon a letter I found that she wrote when she was pregnant with D1 (S4 was S2 at the time). That is why I gently said "joint custody" for ours, to not trigger her. I'm still waiting for the shoe to drop when her current r/s breaks down. It has the hallmarks of a previous r/s of hers, and after that blew up, she was suicidal, based on bits and pieces I put together from what she and a friend of hers told me. Their attachments define their identities.

And honestly, the kids do need their Mom. But they need a healthy Mom. She needs therapy. A lot of therapy.

Surely they do. As long as the other parent is much, much healthier, sometimes that is all we can do. It's frustrating, but it's life.

[Free One]

Can BPD bioMoms be ordered to go to counseling by the courts?

Even if she is ordered by a court to go to counseling, it doesn't mean she actually will or that she will get any benefit from being forced to go. I would actually think this would make a BPD less likely to heal in therapy because they aren't there by choice.

[ennie]

My stepkids mom was ordered to go to counseling.  She has not.  However, we figure this will help if she tries to get more custody at some point. 

As to your first question, why do courts not deal with the effect of BPD on kids better... . I have my own opinions. First, BPD is really hard to diagnose and manifests in such different ways with different people.  Courts have very brief processes, and even fill psych evaluations involve usually only about 5 hours of time with each parent, and sometimes no discussion with collateral sources. This is to evaluate the narrow question of parental fitness, NOT a psychological diagnosis, and seems like a totally inadequate amount of time to even do that.  Even this totally abbreviated look at the parents ability to parent costs thousands of dollars, and the litigation costs that are often needed to get a court to order the full evaluation are serious too.  Often, it is the mentally ill person who does not want the evaluation, and while there are many fully functioning people with BPD, many also do not function well and are indigent or less financially able than the other parent, which means they cannot be made to pay for the evaluation and the "sane" parent must cover the full cost. 

So to add diagnosis to this evaluation would be terribly costly. 

In addition, therapists are notoriously manipulated by BPD people unless well trained.  Counseling often does not work, unless it is specific to BPD nees (such as DBT).  So even if a person complies with the court order, it may not have a positive impact. 

But I think the most significant issue is that it is very hard to tell whether it is worse for kids to be deprived of a parent, or to live with someone who has BPD.  There is not research on that issue, at least not that I have seen.  There is lots of research on the effects of mentally ill parents on kids.  But if you are asking this question, it is likely that you are talking about an actual child who has a BPD parent.  If they have one, it is too late to have only sane parents from birth.  Taking a child away from a parent is a very traumatic thing to do. 

The terrible catch-22 is that the effort it takes to show courts that a BPD parent is not good for the kids can make the "sane" parent a worse and less capable parent.  The cost of legal battles can take away other family opportunities; and the emotional orientation of proving that a childs mother or father is a bad parent is really destructive to the support and love a child needs to deal with the traumatic parent. 

What I wish is that the decision of custody was outside of the hands of the parents.  That 50/50 was the norm, and that 20 friends and family members would be surveyed, ten of each parent, psych tests would be performed, and that an independent reviewer would then make a decision about how much time with each parent was appropriate.  That neither parent was allowed to offer evidence outside of an interview with the reviewer, but that the person had to provide evidence of what they allege.  But that the other party did not see the evidence.  It would be up to the reviewer to determine if these allegations were true by asking other parties mentioned, etc. 

But where would the funding for this come from?  That is the hard part.  It would be a lot of work, and who would do it without an adversarial system?

One idea is that people would have to make a deposit before marrying if they planned to have children.  A big deposit.  If they divorced, the deposit could be used to really help determine what is best for the kids.  These are just my fantasies about how to fix the problem; but the truth is that it is very hard for our legal system to do any in-depth research about what is best for children, much less when one parent's mental illness causes them to hide much of the reality of the situation and to project on the other party.

[blue_skies_ahead]

It's very difficult.  I think that forensic analysis would be the way to go if you go this route. Just my 2 cents.

[PinkieV]

Our GAL report recommended a forensic psychiatric analysis for my SS's mom.  She laid out her report to include several BPD indicators, without actually stating it.  Luckily I'd been referred to this board and knew exactly what she was saying.  We are asking that her recommendations be included in the parenting plan and final custody decision.

[ForeverDad]

I separated over 8 years ago.  Mother got temp custody in about 30 minutes.  I spent the next 8 years trying to correct those 30 minutes.  Every time we're in court the major cases usually take about a year and a half.  Divorce was 2 years and I walked out with Shared Parenting, equal time and I was Residential Parent.  SP failed of course and I got custody 3 years later.  Child's lawyer (GAL = Guardian ad Litem) wanted ex to keep equal time so she could get child support and hopefully "be more stable".  Yeah right.   Nothing changed except now ex had to demand for me to make an immediate doctor appointment for her.  So back to court for modification of parenting time.  Only this last time, when we didn't settle but spent a full two days in court, did the court really see what I and our child have been dealing with all this time.  SO court ruled she should participate in child's counseling so she could benefit.  Court even wrote that mother might not have insurance (Hello - why not ACA!) or might not be able to afford insurance (Hello again - ACA!) so suggested that solution.  Fortunately only IF counselor agreed.  Counselor frowned and said court didn't know what it was asking, the agency is for children, not adults who behave like children.

Yes, therapy can be ordered but around here we know that unless the person stops the Denial and blame-shifting, really wants to change, applies it diligently in perceptions and thinking, and sticks with it for years, well, then it's not going to do much good, if any.  Like the old adage, you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Court has options for Contempt of Court such as jail briefly, fines or paying the other's legal costs.  That seldom happens and the ex-spouses know it.  So usually the goal is to reduce the disordered parent's custody or parenting time.  That takes time but it's often the most practical strategy.

[livednlearned]

It's hard enough to change behavior when you're motivated to change, much less when someone tells you to change or else (although there is usually no consequence when they don't get counseling). Not to mention many of the BPD sufferers going through high-conflict divorces can be incredibly triggered by the court system.

This isn't easy. Your position is really, really hard. I'm watching this from a different perspective -- N/BPDx just discovered that I'm dating, and that has really destabilized him. Honestly, the best thing is to focus on your fiance and your relationship with him. Even just the regular step-parenting/blended family books can be helpful, because bio mom isn't going away.

What brings you closer to your fiance when things flare up with bio mom? What does he do that makes you feel less isolated?

And as awful as it is to say, sometimes the disordered behavior that the bio parent is experiencing is exactly what you want to document in the event you want to file for full custody. It's hard to hear that when you're in the thick of it, but it's true. The worse night of my life, I thought N/BPDx was going to kill himself and then kill S12  :'(  and I came to these boards for support and that's what the old-timers said. I was too shattered at the time to understand, but that's exactly what came true. That night from hell turned into full custody for me.

Hopefully that doesn't happen to you, but sadly, with these kinds of BPD relationships, it's within the realm of possibility. A better scenario is that bio mom exhibits a pattern of behavior that you can easily document, and you have a good lawyer, a good judge, and you and your fiance approach this like a team.

[ShannonRT]

Thank you everyone for the responses. I totally understand how you can't force someone to change if they don't want to, and it's especially frustrating to know that there really are no consequences.

I'm in exactly the same boat as livednlearned in that the beginning of DF's relationship with me was THE trigger. Apparently she had always been uneven tempered and quick to anger, but their divorce was not high-conflict and from what I understand, they had been friendly and pretty successfully co-parenting until I came along.

I think DF and I have been making good strides the past few months towards approaching our situation as a team, which really helps our relationship.

He had a phone consult with the kids' therapist today as a follow-up to their visits with bioMom and to discuss her recent comments and behavior. So the therapist is well-aware of all that has been going on. And he has every text message and e-mail she has ever sent him.

We have actually had at least a week of peace. That will be ending tonight. He is telling her we will be moving in together the first weekend in April. She knew we were planning to put my condo on the market soon and when it sold, I would be moving in. Average market time in my neighborhood is 60 days. Well, my realtor had a client that wanted to buy it before I even put it on the market so I signed a contract this week.   And the cycle continues... .

[ForeverDad]

Thank you everyone for the responses. I totally understand how you can't force someone to change if they don't want to, and it's especially frustrating to know that there really are no consequences.

The court may very well order consequences but getting them enforced or even how to enforce them is the issue.  Getting her to change is almost entirely up to her.  Setting limits on her ability to obstruct and create chaos is up to boundaries you as a couple set and also what the court will order.

... . now that I'm around... .

I'm in exactly the same boat as livednlearned in that the beginning of DF's relationship with me was THE trigger. Apparently she had always been uneven tempered and quick to anger, but their divorce was not high-conflict and from what I understand, they had been friendly and pretty successfully co-parenting until I came along.

Maybe ex couldn't handle being replaced as spouse.  Maybe she wanted to keep perceiving him "on the back burner" simmering in case she wanted him back or could lure him back.  Maybe when you arrived it threatened her sense of motherhood and she felt she was being replaced.  Maybe a combination.

[ShannonRT]

Maybe ex couldn't handle being replaced as spouse.  Maybe she wanted to keep perceiving him "on the back burner" simmering in case she wanted him back or could lure him back.  Maybe when you arrived it threatened her sense of motherhood and she felt she was being replaced.  Maybe a combination.

Maybe... . but she wanted the divorce. Which is why the whole situation is pretty puzzling to me. I get why she feels threatened by me as a mother, but she walked away from their marriage and as vicious as she has been, she absolutely never wanted him back.

[livednlearned]

Maybe ex couldn't handle being replaced as spouse.  Maybe she wanted to keep perceiving him "on the back burner" simmering in case she wanted him back or could lure him back.  Maybe when you arrived it threatened her sense of motherhood and she felt she was being replaced.  Maybe a combination.

Maybe... . but she wanted the divorce. Which is why the whole situation is pretty puzzling to me. I get why she feels threatened by me as a mother, but she walked away from their marriage and as vicious as she has been, she absolutely never wanted him back.

This is the hardest part -- trying to understand. N/BPDx can't process shame, so anytime it moves around in him, he has find a way to get rid of it. The need to eject all feelings of shame is so strong it trumps everything else, including reason and consequences that lead to more shame.

In Bill Eddy's book, he refers to us as targets, and that's how it feels. Not victims, but targets.

The only thing that works for me is applying emotional martial arts to N/BPDx. The kind where you take your opponent's energy and use that energy to defend yourself. If I deal with him the way I deal with reasonable people, I end up playing by his rules.

[ForeverDad]

Mental illness is not supposed to make sense, otherwise it would be normal.   Yikes, ponder that!  Mental illnesses can be described, categorized, written up in textbooks, even some aspects predictable in an unpredictable sort of way, but it still doesn't make common sense.  If you're trying to make that kind of expected every day sense out of it, you can't.  Some reasons are that they give an unbalanced priority to their feelings, moods, perceptions, sensitivities, etc.  So they more or less ignore logic, reasoning, reasonableness, empathy, sincere concern, etc unless it suits their wishes.

[ShannonRT]

Agree! We CAN'T understand... . ever. Because we are rational and reasonable and play by a whole different set of rules than they do. Rules that change mid-game sometimes too!

The best we can do is just learn and cope. One day at a time.

[GaGrl]

Maybe ex couldn't handle being replaced as spouse.  Maybe she wanted to keep perceiving him "on the back burner" simmering in case she wanted him back or could lure him back.  Maybe when you arrived it threatened her sense of motherhood and she felt she was being replaced.  Maybe a combination.

Maybe... . but she wanted the divorce. Which is why the whole situation is pretty puzzling to me. I get why she feels threatened by me as a mother, but she walked away from their marriage and as vicious as she has been, she absolutely never wanted him back.

Yes, yes and yes.  My DH had been separated from his ex for 14 years when I entered the picture -- the ex's choice.  However, she had come and gone freely in his house (their former marital house) because the adult daughter and grandaughter lived with him.  So... . still had a lot of entitlement feelings.

We've now been married 8 years, and she now lives 1500 miles away in the same city as independent daughter and grandaughter.  As recently as 2 weeks ago, the ex called my DH and told him that things weren't going well in her new city, that he should move out there, she would kick her boyfriend out and he could live with her to help take care of the daughter and grandaughter.  DH's reaction... . "That's never going to happen, and you know it."

[ShannonRT]

Yes, yes and yes.  My DH had been separated from his ex for 14 years when I entered the picture -- the ex's choice.  However, she had come and gone freely in his house (their former marital house) because the adult daughter and grandaughter lived with him.  So... . still had a lot of entitlement feelings.

We've now been married 8 years, and she now lives 1500 miles away in the same city as independent daughter and grandaughter.  As recently as 2 weeks ago, the ex called my DH and told him that things weren't going well in her new city, that he should move out there, she would kick her boyfriend out and he could live with her to help take care of the daughter and grandaughter.  DH's reaction... . "That's never going to happen, and you know it."

Oh. My. Word.

That blows my mind. So much for getting the kids raised and out of the house and getting somewhat of a break from the crazy

[sanemom]

Oh. My. Word.

That blows my mind. So much for getting the kids raised and out of the house and getting somewhat of a break from the crazy

Yeah, thanks Gagril for dashing that hope in one single post.  SERIOUSLY?  I keep hoping that once the last one graduates, we are done done done, and this happens to you?

Sigh... .

[ForeverDad]

What you ARE done with when the kids are adults is the parenting obligations as set forth by domestic or family court.  Barring any subsequent terms such as for common requirements for child support until the children are finished with high school or age 19, possible college support, then it is Over.

However, any time the kids get married, have children, family reunions, etc, yes you'll need some firm boundaries set for those interactions so you don't get sideswiped or bamboozled.  Just look at it this way, by the time they're adults the worst should be over.  Let's hope the grown kids have good boundaries too.