Ever have a co-parent counselor/therapist quit you?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Our co-parent counselor CLEARLY wants out. She has become hostile to both parties and frequently has sessions end with screaming matches with BPDmom. I think she is out of her element.

Here's the BUT... . she was recommended by everyone who "knows" who is the best in town. She is supposed to be the best one to deal with this and she's frustrated beyond belief.

I think she may be embarrassed at not being able to see through BPDmom's lies in the beginning and now that she has , that she can not do ANYTHING to effect any change in BPDmom's behavior. She has been completely ineffective in getting any kind of co-operation or reasonable conversation with BPDmom in over a year.

She wants out, what to do?  We would have no other way to communicate with BPDmom until late June if she quits.

[bravhart1]

Our co-parent counselor CLEARLY wants out. She has become hostile to both parties and frequently has sessions end with screaming matches with BPDmom. I think she is out of her element.

Here's the BUT... . she was recommended by everyone who "knows" who is the best in town. She is supposed to be the best one to deal with this and she's frustrated beyond belief.

I think she may be embarrassed at not being able to see through BPDmom's lies in the beginning and now that she has , that she can not do ANYTHING to effect any change in BPDmom's behavior. She has been completely ineffective in getting any kind of co-operation or reasonable conversation with BPDmom in over a year.

She wants out, what to do?  We would have no other way to communicate with BPDmom until late June if she quits.

[david]

So the best in town can't get along with BPDmom and you are expected to do better ?

Sounds like the court needs to make supervised visitation for BPDmom and take all decisions for the kids out of her hands.

[ForeverDad]

Then try not to let her quit.  Sorry, I know it's hard on her, but what about father, you and the children?  She can't just take only the easy cases.  However, if she's fed up with an uncooperative parent then maybe she'll speak plainly and bluntly to the court about the matter.  Court has the only real authority.  While the court may not have been inclined to listen to you, having the C/T on your side (I assume on your side) may be the professional trigger to get court to step up and find a realistic solution without expecting cooperation from mother any more.

Maybe father can sit down with C/T and reason, "I know it's hard to deal with parents who have conflicts, it's been even harder on me and hardest yet on my daughter.  Can we work together to present the entire situation to the court, me as parent and you as the best professional around, and inform the court that half-measures simply won't work, mother is unresponsive to guidance, refuses to cooperate and is continuing to be oppositional to the point where it is harming the child.  You know this is an unusual case, we can't let my daughter fall through the cracks where mother continues to get to exercise her 'rights' to the exclusion and detriment of my rights and more importantly our child's rights to a healthy childhood free from extreme pressuring and blaming as is happening now.  Do you agree it's time to go back to court, explain to the court that only one parent is causing problems and get the court to step in with appropriate action and specific measures to make your counseling/therapy possible?"

I recently posted a response on another thread. Here's part of it:

Courts do have authority and leverage you don't have.  Consequences if an order is ineffective... .

• Contempt of Court findings could result in fines and/or jail time.  However, few judges want to put a mother in jail so often those words on paper are just bluffing and bluster.



• Reductions in mother's custodial authority and parenting time. {EDIT: Supervised visitation should be an option considered!}

I know it's a short list, but there aren't many options available if the problem parent simply refuses to cooperate and continues obstructing and sabotaging.  Courts know that in divorce the emotions and sensitivities are running high, but most people do eventually accept the new reality and settle down.  Courts expect their orders to eventually work in nearly all cases.  Your challenge is to convince the court that the efforts thus far to get mother to cooperate haven't worked, that this is one of those times where gentle guidance won't work and it's time to accept that gentle suggestions, proddings and even basic orders are not enough.

My Custody Evaluator, a child psychologist, wrote a concise and practical custody evaluation report.  After detailing both parents' histories and perceptions, the conclusion was that (1) mother cannot share 'her' child but father can, (2) mother should immediately lose temporary custody and (3) if the parents try Shared Parenting and it fails then father should have custody.

So my suggestion is... . you ought to follow a strategy to convince the judge that no one, not even the court nor those the court has appointed, has been able to substantively improve mother's willingness to parent and co-parent adequately and therefore mother's custodial authority, if any, and mother's parenting time should be limited to a sufficient extent so that father can have an ability to parent without negative impact from mother, whatever that reduction may require.

[Waddams]

I think perhaps a "come to jesus" meeting with the C/T might be in order for you.  If she bought into BPD's manipulation and dug herself a whole, that's on her.  Politely telling her that might be just what needs to happen.  Also politely telling her quitting because she messed up professionally looks mighty bad on her.  :)oes a doc get to quit if they misdiagnose something and prescribe the wrong meds?  No, they have to try to fix it.  Another example - a mechanic replaces the wrong part in a car.  :)o they get to say oh well, you're on your own now because I messed up?  Nope, they get to remedy the issue they created.  If I mess up a design, do I get to tell a client... opps... . sorry about that... . you're on your own to figure it out now!  Professionals just can't abandon their clients if they've made a mistake.  Not if they want to keep being professionals.  They have a higher level of responsibility.  

This C/T needs to step up and try to remedy the mess she's created.  That's the professional thing to do.  I'm a civil engineer.  I get tough projects and tough situations all the time.  I don't get throw my hands up and say "oh, this is hard, I don't want to do it" and walk away.  I have to stick it out, figure it out, and make good.  That's called professional work ethic and responsibility.

This C/T has likely created conditions that made things worse/harder for you and your kids by allowing herself to be manipulated by your BPD.  She's professionally responsible for that.  Now that she's recognizing it, she has a professional responsibility to be part of creating a remedy for a problem she has helped to create.  It's not personal, everyone screws up at their job sometimes.  I do, doctors do... . everyone.  It's not that people are trying to purposely f'-up.  It just happens occasionally because even the best aren't perfect.  In your place, I'd gently remind her of the professionalism she's supposed to maintain as a licensed therapist and then tell her you stand by ready and willing to do whatever you need to help facilitate improving things between you, your BPDx, and her to better meet the best interest of your kids.  End it by presenting yourself as her ally in working for the kid's best interest.

[bravhart1]

This would be a lot easier if we were allowed to speak to her one on one, but she is extremely staunch in her position that they only speak with each parent present and that emails must be copied to both parties.

Hard to have a frank conversation about the elephant while it's in the room with you. Any ideas?

[lexi2020]

We had communication issues with the BP and the court ordered "our family wizard" and set a response time frame of 6 hours.  We have not had the greatest success with this method but at least it is documented and recorded for the court and some form of communication is there. 

The issue with the counselor may have something to do with his/her professional licenses.  I have heard and read in court cases of many professionals refusing to work with high conflict people out of fear of becoming their target.  I am not suggesting this is the cause but rather sheds some light as to the potential threats they face when working with these individuals.  It is sad but unfortunately true that they can be targeted, investigate by their professional board and sometime loose their licenses because the client is so good at manipulating the system to get things the way they want.  They are classified as "troublemakers" to the  therapists, doctors, attorneys, judges etc... . making everyone want to wash their hands of them to avoid conflict or possible negative consequences.  Our GAL just backed out because the BP raised questions about his ethics to the judge.  He wants nothing to do with her. 

I dont know much about this illness but it seems to be "par for the course"  for many people to run especially when they have no direct investment in the person.

[ForeverDad]

So she's locked into co-parenting mode.  Or maybe she's required to work with both parents?  Under normal circumstances that would be understandable.  But considering the high conflict cases we face here, at some point you have to say, this approach isn't working, let's present the facts to the judge and make some informed changes.

"Ms. C/T, I've concluded that you now see clearly the issues with the parenting of our daughter.  What has been happening here has been my experience for {a long time}, that's why we're here with you.  I really am trying to parent, co-parent or however it should be called.  But I believe you now know what the issues are at hand.  I can speak for myself, I've tried my best to be reasonable and yet speak up for our daughter's best interests.  Rather than have a disagreement, even confrontation, here between parents, wouldn't it be best to return to court and present the core issues, facts and insights to the judge?  As parents we are in disagreement, even your professional guidance hasn't overcome the issues, I'm sure that is frustrating, so I think we need new orders from the judge.  Can we set up a date sooner than June for you to present your report and observations as update to the court?  Our daughter will be attending school soon and I really want the best possible environment both at home and school for her to prosper in the years to come."

Hmm, what is being sought in the court case?  Is father seeking to gain more time, majority time, tie-breaker or decision making in joint custody, full custody or Residential Parent for School Purposes?  Or a combination of that?

In my state, therapists and counselors can't make recommendations for custody.  However, the C/T probably is qualified to report what happened even if a direct recommendation for custody is not allowed.  I hope the condition for counseling wasn't that the outcome was not to be reported to court?  Many therapists don't want to get sucked into court.

[lexi2020]

What exactly is a co-parent councilor? Is this lawyer or a mediator?  Or family therapist appointed to teach you how to co-parent with a person incapable of co-parenting.  The term co-parent seems such a oxymoron in relation to attempted parenting with a person with this illness. I just have a hard time saying it... .    

[Unleashed]

"We would have no other way to communicate with BPDmom until late June if she quits."

I'd also like to know what a co-parent counsellor is.  Maybe I need one?  If it is any help I had a "highly recommended" MC quit on us when her knowledge on a particular opinion of hers was absent.  I also feel that verbally articulate, intense sessions can cause counsellors to become uncomfortable.  The simplest cases are pliable people who believe most of what they hear.

[livednlearned]

A co-parenting therapist is usually a forensic psychologist. Meaning, they enter their profession knowing that they are going to be working with courts in some way. Working with the courts is more lucrative.

There has been a wave of "therapeutic jurisprudence" since the 70s or so when courts started to get more involved in court-ordered therapy, GALs, custody evaluators, minor's counsels, parenting coordinators.

What's interesting about your co-parenting therapist is her unwillingness to talk to either parent one-on-one. It's like she is using a false boundary to try and prevent either parent from triangulating her.

In my case, I agreed to see a co-parenting therapist. N/BPDx's lawyer recommended it, and my lawyer said it would be good to try it. I went once and realized that I had no confidentiality. Anything that happened during our sessions could be heard in court. That worried me, as well as the therapist's inability to explain how she would handle N/BPDx if he became abusive. She ended up saying that no, she did not have a specific policy or strategy to deal with someone who was emotionally or psychologically abusive. So I never went back.

Would your co-parenting therapist testify in court?

I ended up with a parenting coordinator. Some PCs are lawyers, some are psychologists. Mine was a child psychologist. In my state, parenting coordinator orders are signed before a judge, and our contract was for a year. She asked the judge to be removed, and he granted it. And she also testified against N/BPDx, so it worked out well for me.

I think you're right that your therapist is in over her head. You probably need something like a PC if they have them in your state, but not all states use them.

[sanemom]

Can you tell us a little about the history?  I am intrigued that she got sucked into BPD's lies with her staunch requirement of seeing both of you together all of the time….but maybe not.  Here they will not have an unequal number of visits per parent, but they WILL do a few one-on-ones.

How long was she falling for it and what made her stop falling for it?

If she is a C/T, she may be able to withdraw from the case, but it would be good if you could get her to stay…if not, makes sure her records go to the next one involved.

[Nope]

In my case the BPD mom is now on lawyer number four. Each of the last three gave started out acting like my DF has been the problem and the BPD mom was the reasonable one. Then over the course of a few months BPD mom would show each L her true colors. Twice we had information about how fed up an L was trickle into our L's office. Both times those L's went in front of the last judge on record and asked to be let out.

Except that I'm more careful than that, I've wanted to send those two L's of hers an email saying something like, "Great, I'm so glad for you that you can just walk away from all of this and make it no longer your problem. But guess what, the rest of us are still stuck here." I know it isn't fair because lawyers take an oath to be on their client's side. But I can't imagine I'd let a parenting coordinator off the hook so easily.

[bravhart1]

Co-parent counselor is a MFCC that is ordered by court to facilitate co-parenting between parents, like holiday schedules, who is going to take her to dentist, hair cuts etc.

She initially met with them separately for one hour and read all the court docs, where I believe she was convinced DH must be an alcoholic abuser. She comes off as such a good victim, I will sadly admit that first time I saw her and watched her (we didn't speak) I had second thoughts about whether or not it was true. If I was taken in, and I've been with DH for three years, then you can imagine how good she is. Later is became clear as more facts, incidents and emails by BPD mom were sent that she was straight up crazy. DH for his part, learned how to respond better, passed his "hoops" that were asked by the court, like alcohol assessment   and such.

Mom has pulled some doozies and everyone knows now what they are dealing with. BPD's private counselor met with Co-parent counselor and both attorneys and apparently she got a rude awakening as well about the true nature of the case. Private counselor was told DH was man-whore leaving SD5 with a different woman every week, while DH was in drunken stupor.  When it came out he was married to me, working 80 hours a week,( 80 that's not a typo :-( )they all realized she was very good at being the victim and an amazing liar.

since then we have tried to make her get on board with co-operation in parenting but it's been ridiculous. She won't agree to the most basic things like keeping SD5 away from a vicious dog that bit SD5 in face a few weeks ago. Says she won't "be controlled" by DH in any way.

We have court in June, but there is not a way to get it sooner, even if she quits. Mediator will talk to Co-parent counselor, even if she quits and all other therapists, including SD5's.

Won't the fact that co-parent can't work with her make mediator give us more time etc as there is no "co-parenting" with this person?

Hope I answered some of the questions above^ I get so muddled up in all this... .

Thanks for the support!

[livednlearned]

It's hard to predict how things will work out, but your situation sounds similar to mine, and the PC in my case was a huge asset. She could not work with N/BPDx. She is considered the best in our court system (she trains PCs, is very ethical and effective), has never asked the judge for a special hearing, never had a client threaten to sue her, never experienced anyone as antagonistic and verbally abusive, unable to reason, etc.

If your therapist can testify in court, she may help you get legal custody, which can reduce a lot of the need for cooperation. It won't stop everything (nothing does), but it makes it a lot less stressful. Unfortunately, it costs a lot of money to bring in an expert witness and go through a court hearing, but in my experience, when a third-party professional flames out working with a BPD sufferer, the court pays attention.