Re: R/S advice, BPD style (continued)

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Oh In-N-Out... . of course it's not over... .   she'll be contacting you probably before the end of today... .   I think it's good that you have someone to distract you... . hopefully you can soon be able to enjoy her company without thinking about the ex at all... .   the withdrawal can be so hard, I know that feelng where you feel pretty damn good for days and then out of nowhere the pain hits so hard again you struggle to cope. 

I started to feel stronger by late in the week and well, guess who apparently was not blocking me anymore?  the exBPD-bf of course... . he started to email and text again... .   he's texted many kind texts this weekend. 

All started as soon as I stopped reaching out to him... .   I am using working out also as a huge part of my recovery - because honestly it helps alot more than therapy.  My own reading/research/online stuff here and working out have helped way way more.  So I signed up with a trainer at my gym this week - I need to change things up and get stronger.  Working out helps me focus and making my body become stronger helps my mind become stronger... .   Here's to a strong, stable week... .    keep us posted, I'd been wondering if you had another chapter to add here... .    

[Take2]

Oh In-N-Out... . of course it's not over... .   she'll be contacting you probably before the end of today... .   I think it's good that you have someone to distract you... . hopefully you can soon be able to enjoy her company without thinking about the ex at all... .   the withdrawal can be so hard, I know that feelng where you feel pretty damn good for days and then out of nowhere the pain hits so hard again you struggle to cope. 

I started to feel stronger by late in the week and well, guess who apparently was not blocking me anymore?  the exBPD-bf of course... . he started to email and text again... .   he's texted many kind texts this weekend. 

All started as soon as I stopped reaching out to him... .   I am using working out also as a huge part of my recovery - because honestly it helps alot more than therapy.  My own reading/research/online stuff here and working out have helped way way more.  So I signed up with a trainer at my gym this week - I need to change things up and get stronger.  Working out helps me focus and making my body become stronger helps my mind become stronger... .   Here's to a strong, stable week... .    keep us posted, I'd been wondering if you had another chapter to add here... .    

[In_n_Out]

I am using working out also as a huge part of my recovery - because honestly it helps alot more than therapy.  My own reading/research/online stuff here and working out have helped way way more.  So I signed up with a trainer at my gym this week - I need to change things up and get stronger.  Working out helps me focus and making my body become stronger helps my mind become stronger... .  Here's to a strong, stable week... .   keep us posted, I'd been wondering if you had another chapter to add here... .  

Good for you Take2!  Yeah, without the working out, I would be a total mess.  I'm actually approaching my best shape ever and am even thinking of doing some competitive stuff again.  When I start to feel the pain of loss over her hitting again, I really amp up the workouts and *usually* the endorphins will make it subside or lessen a bit but sometimes not.  I've gotten emotional in the gym, often because a song comes on my ipod that I shouldn't listen to, and that becomes damn embarrassing.  

As far as my ex, we *did* have plans to have a walk and talk in the park on Saturday.  However, when my son went to the doctors and she met me on Friday and I later took her out to lunch, we had our talk there.  Just more of the same as mentioned above but she did say that she needed a weekend of "peace" and I told her that I could use the same (i.e., we both had plans with other people).  So yeah, I'm sure that she'll reach out to me later in the day or maybe tomorrow.  Now though it will have a different feel to it.  She is very jealous (aren't they all?) and so I'll get a lot of the black and white "I'm happy for you, why are you doing this to me?" stuff.  Honestly, I've said much of the same to her.

I seriously almost want to tell her something like:

"It's a relationship with the wrong person for the wrong reasons... . seeking someone to replace YOU (ex).  I'll seek her comfort, intimacy and friendship to cure the lonliness and for as long as it takes to get over you, just as you have done with (replacement).  I did that with you as a way to go over (my ex ex) and so I'll do it with (new girl) to get over you.  Honestly though, I'd much rather just be with you because I love you and you've said the same to me so here we are, both "stuck" now.  <chuckling> So who's mirroring who?"

Childish I know, but I'd pay admission to see the response from afar.

[Take2]

I seriously almost want to tell her something like:

"It's a relationship with the wrong person for the wrong reasons... . seeking someone to replace YOU (ex).  I'll seek her comfort, intimacy and friendship to cure the lonliness and for as long as it takes to get over you, just as you have done with (replacement).  I did that with you as a way to go over (my ex ex) and so I'll do it with (new girl) to get over you.  Honestly though, I'd much rather just be with you because I love you and you've said the same to me so here we are, both "stuck" now.  <chuckling> So who's mirroring who?"

Childish I know, but I'd pay admission to see the response from afar.

I totally understand.  My ex reached back out on Thursday and Friday.  After I finally gave in to not trying to contact him anymore.  Then he becamse incredibly nice again Friday night, all day yesterday and last night.  Nice on text.  I didn't see him at all.  But they were loving, I miss you type texts.  Today?

Sent him a good morning at like 9am, got nothing until right now when I received 10 texts out of the blue detailing exactly what a player I am (NOT) and why he has no feelings for me.  Uh, can you say "date this morning" ?   I hate that I actually just cried over it.  I hate that I want to write to him and say NO, it's not ME whose the player here... .   he's so predictable.  So in true validation - I simply wrote back to him, said I understand his feelings and I wish him well.

Which is a total lie.  I don't understand his feelings.  He said he loved me last night for God sake.  I strongly suspect he was with the GF or is it EXGF who knows depending on what day of the week it is, this morning.  And that prompted this from him.  What I understand is that he is totally disordered and I have allowed myself to be stuck and becoming more and more damaged psychologically.  She can have him.  As awful as it pains me. 

The hardest part - I cannot stand how he portrays me int hese texts.  He makes me sound like a terrible person and I didn't do the things he says.  HE did.  HEe IS doing those things.  It's so hard to let go of that insanity of how unfair it is.  He trashes me and then shuts me out.  Being shut out is the CRUELEST thing he does to me.  Especially when he does it when I have not had any chance to even respond. 

[In_n_Out]

Yup... . projecting their words on to you/us so in order to justify or make themselves feel better about their actions.  My ex just emailed and here it is in part that goes along exactly with what we're talking about here:

Words escape me at the moment to convey how I am feeling.  I'm happy for you and your day yesterday... . happy that you are the person I always knew you could be:  free and open to do new things... . things I always wanted us to do together.  At the same time, it hurt very much... . and I don't know why you chose to share it with me.  Unless you wanted me to hurt... . in which case, it worked.  

The rest of the email goes on to say how we're on different paths and we can't be friends and that she will continue to be strong and get better and that she loves me very much and always will as long as she lives... .  same things she has said before.

My response, which I will be curious to see what the response thereof is, if at all:

I understand how you feel hurt.  It is the same hurt that I felt when I found out that you had found another.  I seem to hurt you quite a bit, or your understanding is that I intentionally hurt you quite a bit when in reality, that is *never* my intentions.  I love you too much and want you in my life so badly that to hurt you would be so very counterproductive.  I shared that we were there only after you shared that you were there so that we could avoid the possibility of bumping in to one another.  I would have been absolutely devastated to see you two together.  It would be an image burned into my brain that I never want to have.  Thank you for protecting me from your facebook; as much as it hurts me to be "blocked" (not just defriended), thank you for protecting me.  I too was protecting you.

I had a fun time after we left <big city> yesterday.  I couldn't stay in <big city>.  We parted ways with a break to check on kids and to get dressed for another event and I bawled and bawled yesterday.  I cried so hard over you, about us, but laughed and had a great time last night.  This person is very upbeat and positive and I need that right now.  *If* anything more were to come of this between her and I, it would be similar to what you are going through; it would be for all the wrong reasons.  It would be because I was trying to replace you.  Not because my heart was healed and I was ready to fall in love again.  It would be to seek companionship, intimacy, friendship, laughter with someone only because I can't share those things with you.  And that is very unhealthy and it will only lead to more heartache down the road but I can't help it.  I need to replace you.  I too am so tired and hurt and just have so much love to share that is denied me.

Every email similar to this one to where you are the "free spirit" and that we can't be together indicates that I hurt you so; and never mentions how much I hurt in all of this.  We both were and are terribly hurt.  I know that I have shame in some of the things that I said, and you must feel some shame in how things turned out as well- I can only imagine.  I'm sorry that you lost hope in our relationship.  Lost hope and hurt to the point that it was the better choice for you to leave our relationship.  As difficult as this has been, it turned out to be a wise choice because as we've discovered, to of continued on the path that we were and to of gotten married would of only led to a divorce in a year or two.  That is what I'm worried about with you now but that is not my concern.  You will have make those discoveries.

So I will do what you have learned to do so well.  I will smile on the outside and play the role of a happy character in somebody else's movie all the while on the inside I will be a crying, scared and lonely little boy missing the woman that he loves but was not allowed to love any longer.

I love you so very much.  I am sad that you are also now taking away our friendship.  That too hurts me very deeply but I understand why you are doing so and it is for the better; if you are to grow in your relationship with <replacement> then you will need me out of the picture.  I do understand that.  Please be good to yourself.  Perhaps someday you will go back and look over the materials and emails that I have given/sent you and you will see that it was all out of love; for I love you so very deeply.  I hope that they help answer questions that I know you have about yourself, your past and your upbringing.  I pray that I find that kind information about mine as well someday.  Perhaps somebody that loves me very much will care enough to do the same type of research.  Who knows.

Will keep the posts coming should I ever hear back from her.  Can we take bets on if or when that will be?  I'll open with saying that it will be some time this time.  I have a gut feeling that she's painted me black but she will be back.  How long?  A week, 2 weeks?  Maybe a month again like last time. Not sure.

[maxsterling]

I/O I'm just reading the posts of this weekend now - that's quite a story.  And once again I can see some commonality with my situation here:

- The blaming you for hurting her, when she is doing the same to you. 

- You at times wanting to just be done but then just falling apart over it.

- Her claiming you will find someone better at the gym (or wherever).

In my case, it almost feels like everything she says to me are things I should be saying to her - that I feel like I am waiting for *her* to commit.  That I am waiting for *her* to decide what she wants in life.  But I don't, because I don't want to pressure her.  And then she comes at me about how much she hurts over my indecisiveness.   And at that point, I can't come back to her and say "I feel the same thing" because she won't understand and claim I am just using her words to make excuses.

Please keep us posted on how she responds to your email, if she does.  It sounds to me like you were just trying to get all these emotions that were building off your chest, and put the focus on her.  I think that's good.  I really need to do the same.  I need to tell her she is hurting me, and outline what I need from her in order to feel secure again.  I just need to get over the fear of hurting her, and the fear of losing her for good (or her killing herself).

I would like to comment on one thing, though - the dating someone else.  While I think it is a good step to try and move on, remember this new woman is also a human being that can be hurt. If you still have feelings/desires for your ex, I think it is only fair for you to be upfront with new dates early on, especially if you are texting an ex during the first date.  Take things slow, and be honest.  Not to say you aren't doing that, but just a reminder that the women you date may be looking for something serious or long term - and they don't deserve to get caught in this BPD mess.

[In_n_Out]

Thanks again Max and yeah, I'm following your posts closely and I know that you're following mine as well because of the very similar situations.

I assume that my ex has me blocked on texting and email. I've sent a few little, positive texts and that email with no replies to any of them.  So once again, that shows me how easy it is for her to just walk away and I would have to think long and hard about any kind of r/s with her knowing that at any point, she could (and would) just walk away again.  I think the "hurt" that she mentions is not me telling her that I was there but that it *could* of been her that I was with and she realizes that.  I asked her on Friday if this guy really makes her happy (did I mention this already?), she said that she "thinks" that some day he will.  The mindset of a BPD right there for you.  He soothes her but she's still not fulfilled and that's where my role came in to play... . I filled the 'tweener' spots for when she wasn't with him and with whatever it is that he's missing that she needs. 

I'll let you all know *if* she breaks NC but really, I should do myself the big favor of just blocking her and letting it go... . but we know how hard that is. 

Re: new friend.  Totally agree Max.  I was just talking to a girl friend of mine and we talked about this same thing.  If the new lady friend begins to hint at a r/s or anything beyond just enjoying time together, then I'll have to be up front and let her know that I'm still very much healing and am not ready to rush in to anything serious at this point.  I definitely need to be up front about that with her.  She's a very sweet lady and I don't want more heartache and hurt for her, me or anybody because of my ex and my emotions/feelings. 

Good points, thanks again. 

[In_n_Out]

Well got through nearly 2/3rds of the day and hadn't heard from the ex.  I figured blacked out as night and maybe I can finally separate myself from the situation.

I drove to the gym and spoke to my new lady friend who is an RN.  My son's rash is spreading and she had some kind and good advice on what to do to ease his suffering.  She's very caring, often saying "drive carefully please, it's raining!".  Stuff like that.  Endearing.

So I get to the gym and I'm on a treadmill sitting down lacing up my shoes and I feel it.  Crap.  I look up and yup, the ex is standing there before me.  She doesn't have a membership to this or any other gym mind you so she talks her way in each time.  She asks if we can talk: "it will take just 5 minutes".  Yeah, right.

We go to a quiet corner and she says that when I said in my text that "We were there too" she panicked.  Had a panic attack (she's mirroring because I've had two panic attacks in her presence when she would tell me about moments with my replacement.  I'd never had panic attacks before and it freaked her and me out).  She said that they were at a restaurant... . that my replacement didn't want to pay to go in to the crawfish event and that "it was not a very good day".  She started with how twisted this all is and that she knows that I don't understand the circumstances but she loves me but she can't be just my friend, etc.  I take that cue and I start to respond: "I told you that we were there to protect you.  I didn't want to bump in to you guys and I know that you didn't want to bump in to us.  Did you read my email?"  She replies "No.  It would hurt too much". 

I through out the validation for her crap and calmly but firmly set my boundaries.  "What about my hurt?  It's ok for you to lay in my bed with me, cuddling me, telling me how much you love me and then 2 hours later you're in <his> arms.  Do you not understand how that hurts me?  Can you validate the hurt that that causes me?".  She replies "Yes.  But I didn't come here for this".  Me: "oh but you did and you're on my turf now so you're going to hear it.  The biggest fear that I had about you was that every time you emotionally dysregulate, you push me away, block me and give me the silent treatment and you've proven yet again that that is exactly what you will do.  I was pushed out of our bedroom.  Pushed out of the home that we shared. Pushed out of the relationship and you fell in to another mans arms.  That crushed me.  Do you understand my hurt and fear and anger?".  She's crying by this time and tries to joust back "why did you text me with... . ".  Me: "did you not just hear me?  How many hours did I waste writing you letters explaining my emotions and my thoughts in a kind and understanding way only to not of been heard because you blocked me and didn't want to hear what I had to say?". 

I let out some more things that had been bottled up and told her that I love her but I cannot be in love with her any longer.  She loves another man now; "you're wrong" she interjects.  "I'm wrong about what, everything that I've said or that you don't love him?".  "It doesn't matter but you're wrong".  I told her that I've been on two dates with this lady and that she's very upbeat and I need that right now.  Oops, that was the tipping point.  "Well I'm happy for you and I can't do this any longer."  With that a hug and her tears falling on my shoulder and she left the gym.

I was pissed.  I was fired up pissed that she invaded my turf to come dysregulate and stir the pot.  I had a jog and then as I anticipated, a note was on my car.  I read the first line "Why did you... . " and I crumpled it up.  Didn't want any part of it.  If she was right there I'd tell her how I too can just ignore her words because they were hurtful.  Finger pointing and blame shifting.

Went home and I was happy, cheerful and felt relieved.  And then on my doorstep is the rose plant that she had planted at my moms grave. I had transplanted it because you can't plant live plants at the cemetary and I wanted to preserve it.  I don't have much of a green thumb and the plant was hurting.  She had taken it last week to nurse it back to health.  With the plant on my porch now was another note saying something to the effect of "I can't keep the rose bush.  It hurts too much. You nurse it back to health.  I love you, always" or something like that.  Bah!  Crumpled up that note too.

So I finally read her note.  More blame shifting and she says that she won't be with <him> much longer because she doesn't love <him> but she loves me.  And why am I out doing all the things that she wanted to do with me and why don't I understand how she did stand by me for years, even when she was hurt, to try and make things work.  Total guilt trip.  She concluded it with:

"So this is what they call a 'tragedy'.  It's a kind of play, look it up.  There will never be another me... . there will never be another you.  There will never be another us.  I love you - I always will".

That contact will send me in to a tailspin tomorrow most likely.  Right now I'm strong and content though.  Called my new lady friend and we're both going to get up in the wee hours of the morning to watch the lunar eclipse "together" (apart but both watching).  I told my ex what I said in the email that she didn't bother to read: that *if* I were to get involved seriously with this girl, it would be for the wrong reasons and with the wrong person and that I so much wanted to be downtown with her (ex) and I know inside that she wanted to be there with me, but here we are... . so close together in proximity yet we just can't make it work because she's "stuck". 

|THIS| close to blocking her... . Lord give me the strength... . it's the perfect exodus right now if I can only muster the strength to do it and hold on and keep doing it!

[pallavirajsinghani]

Yes, this is a grand drama.  The emotions are intense, heightened, just as in an opera.  You both are stars, enacting a grand recurring tragic myth repeatedly: 

This is not a criticism.  It's an observation and it is by now becoming obvious to you both.  The difference between you both is that while she strives to be on stage, under the bright shiny lights forever, even if they burn her, you know that this level of emotion cannot be sustained without a person burning out.

Anxiety is not the same thing as excitement.

A sugar high is not the same thing as slow and steady nutrition.

Muscles made from good old fashioned sweat are not the same as those made with steroids.

Addiction is not the same thing as Love.

This will continue until some one has the courage to say,  "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!"

This courage will not come until one of you have worked off the enjoyment of both participating in and being the spectator of this drama.  Again, I use the term "drama" in its literal sense and not as a criticism.  Both of you are acting from a predictable and cyclical script.  It is as old as myths and history and folk tales and lost loves and tears and suffering and grandness and intensity and larger than life cravings.

Looks like you do want to break the cycle.  Counseling would be immensely helpful.  You are dealing with addictive chemicals in your brain right now.  It is the adrenaline rush that you both seem to be addicted to.  Unfortunately you can only save yourself.

Your new relationship in itself is not a cure all.  You are as guilty of triangulating as she is.  I would seriously suggest counseling because this addiction is not easy to let go.

I hope this will help: 

www.thecruxmovie.com/pdf/TheBridgeShortStory.pdf

[Take2]

As much as I agree with what Pallavirajsinghani says... . that this is an addiction with each partner playing out their parts over and over... .   going to counseling is not a magical cure.  I say this out of experience.  I have been going to counseling for a year and a half.  My therapist, not the first I've sought out, has pointed out the addiction but gives no real help.  I can talk thru the entire drama of my own with my friends and wind up having better understanding of my own huge role in the dysfunction.  I realize many will say to find another therapist - but I have reached out to many.  I live in a major city.  Therapists do not truly understand the addiction.  They have read about it, but they don't understand it.  I truly don't mean to knock any suggestions for help - I think everyone should try any means they can.  I suport In-N-Out in whatever way possible on these boards to find himself in a place that he is healthier and happier.  It's a brutal addiction.

I suppose I am jaded with the concept of therapy at this point.  These boards and my friends who know what has gone on in my world with my ex, along with reading about trauma bonds and addiction are what have truly helped me understand my own motives for taking part in the unending drama. 

In-N-Out... .   we all just want you to succeed in finding happiness... .   you do deserve it.

Sorry for my somewhat negative post response here... .   I just wanted to point out the difficulties that I've encountered... .   and hope you do find success on your end... .    

[maxsterling]

The same old story:  She can tell you how much you hurt her, but if you start telling her how much she hurt you, she shuts down.  Been there, done that.  This week, in fact.  And I am sure you want to hear is, "I walked out on you - I'm sorry, I didn't realize how much you were hurt, and I am truly sorry of that and hope you can forgive me."   Seems so simple, but will you get it?  Doubt it.  Maybe an "I'm sorry but... . "  I expressed last weekend that months of constant criticism had me not wanting to eat with her for awhile, and sometimes I am still self-conscious.   Just a simple acknowledgement that I was hurt would helped.  Instead, "I was really irritable at everyone during that time.  Why didn't you leave me?"

She knows it was mean an hurtful, she's said as much.  But never an acknowledgement or apology for *me* being hurt.

Apologies are difficult for many people, but for pwBPD it seems natural for them to make it about themselves.  But heck, we validate and apologize like crazy to them, and they demand it, and expect it.

I'm really sorry you are dealing with this, but I'm proud of the strength you are showing.  Only you can decide if blocking her is the best option, because if she want she will track you down at the gym again, or leave notes on your door or car. 

[In_n_Out]

Thanks for the reply and the link to the story pallavirajsinghani.  I've saved that pdf in a special folder on my computer that I have with all of the stuff related to this experience.

Thanks Take2 and Max.  I always appreciate the feedback.

Yes, more high drama.  I was up at zero dark thirty to watch the lunar eclipse last night.  This is the kind of stuff my ex loves; her mom will have been calling her telling her to go look out at the moon and her lunatic dad would be predicting that it signifies the end of the world.  I was outside, bundled up and yup, started missing the ex.  But I was proud of myself (at the time) because I resisted the temptation to drive over to her place to watch it with her.

Got up this morning, groggy after only 3 hours of sleep and I was in auto-pilot mode.  I don't know why or even thinking about it but I went and bought 2 dozen roses, a card and then drove to my ex's place.  Oh don't you sigh at me!    I hear you all now.  Just hang with me here.  My ex was at work by this time so I drove over and laid out roses all around her house, on her porch, in her potted plants, in the windows, on the fence... . just everywhere.  I wrote a simple card saying that I couldn't read her note because it began with "Why did you... . " but that through the hurt that we have *both* felt, we have grown (apart implied) and we had felt love.  I left that on her doorstep.

I went through the day at work and she has me blocked on texting and FB and probably email.  So I didn't hear from her.  I thought of her often but wasn't sad or depressed; I just didn't feel anything.

Came home, got dressed and went to the gym.  A bit of anxiety (ok, a good bit) crept in as I kept expecting to look up and see her standing there as has happened a few times now.  It didn't happen.  I finished my workout and after a dozen "F it's" about ever contacting her again, I headed straight to her house.  Auto pilot mode again.  I had on cue one of our songs.  As I pulled up to her house, she was out front, collecting the roses and I rolled down the window and started playing the song.  Out of a movie.  "Say Anything" or any one of her favorite chick flicks.  She put down the roses and ran to me and we kissed and held each other and she was in absolute tears and trembling.  She muttered that it was the most romantic thing that anybody had ever done for her. 

We talked, hugged, kissed and I was quiet.  I didn't want to say too much.  I'd get into the "why did you block me, that hurt me" and such.  It just wasn't the moment.  Reality did hit when she mentioned the impending doom cruise that she's going on.  She put her hand over my heart and said that she'd been a bawling mess all day, that she doesn't love (replacement) but loves me and if only she can just get through this cruise that she so desperately wants to go on she can figure things out.  That she bought a beach hat to try and psyche herself up for the cruise but that she's excited for the cruise itself but not the circumstances.  It hurt to hear it but I didn't say anything.  I did begin an exodus however.

We shared videos that we had both taken of the moon; her alone at her house, me at mine.  I told her that before her, I wouldn't of paid much attention to it, let alone get up in the wee hours of the morning on a work night to watch it.  I thanked her for showing me how to appreciate the beauty in Gods world.  We kissed again on the porch, said "I love you's" and I said "I don't know exactly when you're leaving for this cruise and I don't want to know.  All that I will say is 'see you around'".  And with that, I drove off.

I've blocked her from texting me.  I think she probably leaves this coming weekend for the cruise or it may be the next which is my birthday.  My Christmas was destroyed over the chaos of a recycle and being painted black and I refuse to let that happen over my birthday.  So I don't want to hear anything.  I don't want to hear any more "I love you, not him, but I'm in a mess".  Half-truths, unspoken lies, whatever it is that swirls around in her fragile eggshell mind (to steal a quote), I don't want to hear it right now and not for a while.  Maybe I'll unblock her next month.  Maybe not.  Maybe things will work out with her and my replacement.  Maybe things will be exciting and fun with the replacement that I've met for her.  That is sick, twisted and wrong and I know it but somehow I've felt like I've taken lessons from a pro and now I'm applying what I've learnt.  So wrong.  I just don't feel right now.  I just want some "normalcy" in my life. 

But of course, sadness and depression may... . correction... . will hit and who knows if auto-pilot will kick in again.  Damn, I don't know.  So tired.  Max, I think that we're both very much the same.  We're stuck in the "fix it" mode because we both feel like we are so close to breaking through to them... . we see the signs that we are getting through but then we just can't close the deal.  Almost like dealing with a dementia patient; not to make light of that horrible disease (my father is suffering from it now) but it's like we get a response to our output and we are renewed in hope only to see them gaze back off in to emptiness again and failing to recognize who we even are.  That's how this feels to me.

To be continued... . (?)

[Take2]

We're stuck in the "fix it" mode because we both feel like we are so close to breaking through to them... . we see the signs that we are getting through but then we just can't close the deal.  Almost like dealing with a dementia patient; not to make light of that horrible disease (my father is suffering from it now) but it's like we get a response to our output and we are renewed in hope only to see them gaze back off in to emptiness again and failing to recognize who we even are.  That's how this feels to me.

So sweet yet it breaks my heart for you In-N-Out... .   I know how badly you want this to work with her.  How much you are trying to show her how much you love her... . the truly heartbreaking thing is that you can't love this disorder away.  I too have tried and tried and tried.  I have allowed every boundary to be crossed.  I have tried to tell myself too that I won't allow this treatment anymore with each shattering.  At least for me, it has only gotten so much worse.  My attempts to reach "him" (the him I know, the one that loves me) do get thru eventually, like your dementia patient, but it's so fleeting now and it's not a gaze back off into emptiness that comes afterward... . it's a raging, angry, scary man who comes at me... .    A different scenario than yours, but I think that either way, boundaries are being crossed.  You are showering her with love as she's about to go on a cruise with another man.  She won't figure anything out on that cruise.  I hate to say that... .   trust me I do.  She will just come back.  The NC that the cruise will impose on you will be a good thing.  You will not be able to see or hear from her at all.  That will be good time for YOU.   By reading what you are writing I can understand my friends' concerns about me - that I keep putting my heart on the line for someone who has and will continue to keep shattering it... .   and like they tell me, please focus on YOU and what you truly deserve... .

[In_n_Out]

Thanks Take2 and I'm feeling good about my decision yesterday. 

Instead of getting to the point of utter frustration and leaving when mad at one another and being painted black and finding ways to hate each other - I have left when things were good.  As Merle Haggard sang; "Some day when things are good, I'm gonna leave you". It was a perfect, bittersweet goodbye.

I have her blocked from all forms of communication except of course a visit to my home or gym.  The app will send her a positive message if/when she texts; saying something to the effect of "if it's meant to be" and that I won't stop believing in her.  A short, positive message.

If (er, when) she does show up at my doorstep, I will find a way to say that the only thing that she can say to me is that she can show me that she has left the other r/s and wants to continue (start really) getting help and that she just wants me to know that.  I'll tell her that there's nothing more to be said... . we've done and said it all already.  I have to see that she has a willingness to want to make more self discovery and a willingness to learn to better handle emotions and her decision making from a professional.  Until then, fly high butterfly... . I won't stop believing in you.

[cosmonaut]

I/O, you've shown a tremendous amount of strength and love.  The amount of patience and understanding you have shown to your ex is impressive and admirable.  If love could her heal her, you would have done it for certain.  You couldn't have tried any harder to reach her and help her.  You have shown her tremendous love, and that is not something you should feel badly about at all.  You acted with love and you gave it your all.

Like so many of our exes, your ex just can't (won't?) bring herself to accept help and finally let go of these incredibly self-destructive thought patterns and behaviors.  Your ex is right, it *is* a tragedy.  BPD is a treatable disorder.  pwBPD can lead stable and even happy lives with effective treatment.  It is so tragic that so many pwBPD refuse every offer of help, even when they *know* that something is very wrong with them.  When they are miserably unhappy.  It's heartbreaking.

I hope and pray that your ex will find it in herself to finally take that step.  I will pray for her.  I pray every single day for the same for my ex.  There really is nothing else I can do.  I have tried everything.  I pray with all my heart and all my soul that Jesus send His healing upon her.  And I pray the same for your ex.

Stay strong.  We will get through this.

[In_n_Out]

Thanks Cosmo.

Came home from the gym and a gift bag was on my doorstep with a note.  Inside were a couple of placards about "Hope".  The card said simply, "somewhere, someway, somehow, someway.  I will love you forever". 

What could I do?  I unblocked her from texting long enough to send a "thank you for the gifts, they are very sweet".  Not more than 2 minutes later my son tells me that my ex is at the door. Yes, stalking.

I invite her in but she won't come in.  I go outside but it's chilly so I get my car keys and invite her in to the car.  She asks "why?" and I told her that the original intention wasn't to be a goodbye, but as she spoke she mentioned (him) and how caring he is and how he will do anything for her and that he loves her very much and that coupled with the impending cruise it dawned on me that she was in no hurry to leave that situation.  That I would be in this limbo forever potentially and that I won't be able to heal as long as I am.  That's why it turned in to a goodbye.  I told her that I love her that much; enough to set her free to figure things out and that if she does figures things out and I'm to be part of the plan, she can find a way to let me know.

She said that she can't just come back because she's afraid.  Afraid that things will go "dark" again.  That though I wasn't cruel or malicious, things were said that really hurt her.  I validated that fear but emphasized that those were things in the past.  A r/s would have to be brand new and with the new knowledge that I've learned since the breakup.  The things that I've learned about her, about me and about how communicate.  I then asked her to communicate with me.  "What is it that you want from me?".  She couldn't answer that.  I asked her if she wants me to wait for her.  She said "that's not fair to you, you're moving on, keep doing what you're doing".  I asked then does she want me out of her life?  "No, I can't imagine you not being in my life".  I said so if you want me in your life, what are you prepared to do to make sure that I am?  What do *you* want?  Again, she couldn't answer; "I don't know".  This went back and forth for several minutes.  I finally said, I can't take an "I don't know" back inside that house with me and keep hanging on to "hope". An "I don't know" doesn't sound very hopeful to me.  I pressed: can you make a decision?  You say that you're not happy with him.  You just said that he's not the one.  Why are you still in that r/s then?  Can you help me to understand that?  "No, I can't tell you... . (inferring that I'd get mad or hurtful)".  I assured her that I will give her as much understanding as I can - just help me to understand what it is she wants.  Couldn't do it, wouldn't do it. 

I told her then that I have to set her free.  I have to work on myself.  She said "I feel like the burdon is all on my shoulders".  I told her that unfortunately, it is.  I've made my intentions known.  She knows what I would like- to give "us" another shot, but that the decision to do so rests with her.  She's involved with somebody else that "isn't right for her", yet she can't walk away.  She's stuck in the past with previous hurt and afraid of the future.  She said that she shouldn't of come "I keep f'ing things up".  I told her that I was glad that she came, that now I know... . it's an "I don't know what I want" and that's the best that I would ever get from her.  I shouldn't of said it but it just came out; "maybe the love isn't as strong as you think".  That was an invalidating and personal attack and out came the "I don't deserve that".  I started to become defensive and I saw this going downhill quickly.  I said that I was sorry; but I tried.  I've tried everything that I could and with that I waved goodbye and walked inside.  I heard her huff as in "not even a goodbye kiss?".

She's probably still sitting outside in her car.  In BPD fashion, she just can't make any sound decisions; even a life or death decision and she will turn things on to me to justify her lack of decision making ability; "I'm afraid that you'll hurt me again".  Well I had more faith in us than that, but that is her way of justifying a non answer. 

And so what was a beautiful and happy goodbye last night is a hurtful and sad goodbye but maybe that's the only way it could of been.  She said that I don't have to block her any more, that she won't text.  I don't trust that- she can't make decisions like that.  She'll just keep doing what she has done instinctively since childhood; keep reaching out to the "parent" to try and get some soothing and that's as best that she can hope for with anybody... . temporary soothing and when that soothing stops, she moves on, with justifications in her mind as to why she has to do it that way.  Maybe to her its shame based "I deserve to be miserable".  Only a T could help her resolve that.  I can't do it.  I can't try any more.

[In_n_Out]

Before anybody replies, I realize my error in that situation last night.  It should not of happened but I guess inside, I really wanted her to make another appeal.  It was a beautiful and graceful exodus for us the night before and I allowed her to come in and ruin that with what we have now- a split to where we're mad at one another, hurt, angry, upset.  I shouldn't of said anything the gifts.  I should of told my son to tell her that I cannot see her.  I screwed that one up. 

Some interesting observations though.  She said at one point last night that "I guess that you're stronger than I am about this".  I thought on that last night afterwards (I need to stop that too) and realized that she wanted me to break down yet again, sobbing in her arms as she's sobbing in mine, to then have a goodbye the way she wants it... . tearful and leaving me in a "wanting" mode so that she can say goodbye for now (bon-voyage... . cruise time!) and then have me hanging around still waiting in the wings.  When I didn't go that route and stood my ground and confronted her on just what the hell she wants in life, she commented that she feels like she's being beaten up and that the burdon is all on her.  Very clinical, very textbook personality disorder.  It needs to sink in but for them, their attachments are very much child-parent.  Her leaving an attachment would be like her leaving her parents.  She can't and won't do it *until* she feels threatened enough with abandonment or more likely (in my ex's case) if she finds a new foster parent.  My prediction (and this isn't such a bold prediction), but she will be with someone else within a month, maybe two.  The r/s with (him) is tainted, I honestly can sense her pulling away, yet she won't give us a chance because that's going backwards in her mind (and she's right), so the next step is forwards to a clean slate. 

Very sad.  I need to stop feeling sorry for her but I can't.  I know that she sees it.  Max can relate to this.  I think that we all can relate to this.  The analogy with a dementia patient is probably the most accurate.  Mid stages alzheimers to where there's moments of clarity and joy and then suddenly, when pressed for more, complete fog and a blank stare.  Thanks for the prayers Cosmo, she needs them, I need them.  We all here need them.   

[maxsterling]

she commented that she feels like she's being beaten up and that the burdon is all on her.  Very clinical, very textbook personality disorder. 

Bingo.  I sat in T office last night with her, and this was basically her thing - that she feels the burden is all on her, and she's jumped through all these hoops, and I still haven't proposed to her.  The T tried to explain to her that she was creating her own roadblocks, to which she replied, "I can't help it, this is how I am".  The hoops?  Well, she's met my entire family now.  She looks at meeting my family as a criteria of mine that she must meet first - the "burden" to her is to meet my family?  Yes, I/O, it's the same situation here - she feels like it is up to her - and it is - she has freedom (!) and that is a good thing, but she doesn't see it that way. 

[In_n_Out]

Well at least yours knows what she wants (to be married).  Now whether it is to be married to *you* or to just be married is something that you will have to figure out.  Mine seemed to be very focused too.  We were engaged and I was welcomed in to her family and she was planning the wedding, reseverd the chapel, etc but something in my gut was screaming "Warning Will Robinson!".  I felt FOG after our initial breakup because I wasn't as active as she was to get the wedding planned (her parents weren't involved at all either by the way).  What I've since realized is that in the case of my ex, she just wanted to be married because that makes her appear "normal".  It would show her parents that she's marriage material after all and she's just like everybody else that falls in love and gets married.  I just happened to be the one that was willing enough to go along with the plot until my gut check had me pull out.

I don't want to put any more negative thoughts or add to the worry that you already have Max.  I'm sure these thoughts have crossed your mind.  Is it *you* that she wants to spend the rest of her life with?  I just know that in the case of my ex, her goals in life are 1) find a suitable host, marry him and have kid (though she finally realizes that having a kid now is very unlikely) 2) write her life story and post selfies on facebook 3) listen to every heartbreak song on YouTube 3) cry in her garden if all else fails at the moment. 

[maxsterling]

Interesting - I've thought of it that way.  And she has vocalized it as such - as to marriage to me specifically?  Yes, I think so, but I am not sure how to tell.  She tells me of two other occasions where she wanted to marry someone, two times when she got her heart really broken.  I really don't want to know the details of those, but I can tell she sees something "different" in me.  But even if she sees something different in me, I still feel there is strong components of "I want to get married and have a kids to help me feel normal (or have parents love her, etc)".  And probably some of "I want to get married to prove to myself that I am worthy, and those two jerks who broke my heart *were* to blame."  How do I know that?  Well, I think I have a bit of those two statements inside of me (well I did years ago) but I can dismiss those feelings as irrational whereas she is controlled by them and have gotten stronger with age.

[In_n_Out]

Just to keep this journal updated - yes, of course we've been seeing each other and today (Easter) was not an exception. 

I saw her yesterday morning at her house.  We're now doing this semi-stalking thing where we just show up unannounced which I know is just potential trouble and is troublesome but that's where we are.  She had blocked my phone Friday night after she came over to my place unannounced.  She was upset because she knew (sensed) that I had been out on a date and I had.  She dysregulated in my driveway and I wasn't having any of it.  It wasn't an argument but I just wasn't in to the whole "validation, step all over me" routine and so I told her that I was concluding the talk.  I knew that she had blocked my texts after that. 

So, after my morning workout Saturday, I went to her place.  The pattern that I'm seeing now is when I go to her "haven", she's ok but when she comes here, she is much more likely to dysregulate.  This visit was no exception.  We talked.  We hugged. We danced in her bedroom.  She was getting her house ready; her parents were coming in to town and my replacement was coming over to join them, all within a couple of hours. 

I left and she sent messages throughout the visit.  She spoke of how happy she was to see her parents; that they were in good spirits and she was so happy that her dad remarked how wonderfully she has decorated the house.  She really has done a wonderful job.  I keep telling her that she needs to find a way to make money "decorating on a budget" because everything in that house is from Goodwill or the Salvation Army or otherwise was heavily discounted.  She really has done an amazing job with it and the yard.  Flowers planted everywhere... . I'm quite impressed. 

Everybody (including replacement) was gone by 7p.m. and she began texting me.  Very clingy; really turning on the "you are the one" type of stuff.  She called to say goodnight and it was a very endearing phone call.  I'm still being very cautionary about getting my hopes up for anything though - let's see if her actions start to match her words.  Well... .

I mentioned last night that I would be attending Easter service at our church.  She hasn't been back to it since we split and in fact, she's fallen away from the church.  That was such a HUGE part of her previously.  I invited her to join me, not expecting her to agree to AT ALL but she did say that she would think about it. 

Went to church and sure enough, text came in "where are you?  I can't find you!.  Meet me out front".  I did and I held her hand and escorted her in to the service.  I shed some happy tears - it had been over a year since we had been to church together and we had both shed so many tears in this church in the past.  Tears over worries of how to pay bills, was this the right relationship, so much stress - all that we lifted up to God and HE got us through some very tough times.  Those emotions came to me at this instance and she wiped my tears.

The message of resurrection was spot on; talking about how "if there ever is to be a comeback, there has to first be a setback".  Jesus' setback was being placed on the cross but in HIS plans, the comeback happened.  She cried during the closing prayer and she opened my hand and wrote the word "HOME" on my palm. 

After service, we went to one of our usual shopping spots (bookstore) which happened to be open.  We danced in the aisles to the soft music that was playing.  She then told me that she had a talk with her mom.  She said that she told her mom that she didn't love (him) and that she (her mom) sensed that.  She said that she told her mom that whatever happens with her and (him), that she will be ok and her mom said "as long as I know that you will be ok, I will be ok with your decision".  She said that she didn't mention me but that she wouldn't be surprised one bit if they could guess what was going on.  She said that she also spoke with her dad about her job (where (his) mom works with her) and that she has to leave it.  She blames the office manager that she doesn't get along with and didn't mention that she would want to get away from (his) mom in case she did break up but that was implied.  She said that her dad said that he understood and that his only advice was to this time have something else lined up first.  Those enouraging words gave her the strength to begin to make the move away. 

Now, again, actions are the key here and I know that.  I'm certainly hearing things that I've been wanting to hear for a long while now... . signs that she was finally working to get "unstuck" from her current situation but again, I'll see if she starts to follow that up with any actions before I start to get too hopeful.  Very encouraging what I heard though.

We finished the day with some yogurt and her head on my shoulders on the drive home.  Our goodbye was again "you are my home.  I want to come home". 

"Comfortably numb" is what comes to mind right now.  I'm at peace, happy and somewhat optimistic but I know fully well that by this time tomorrow we could very well be NC again because of some dysregulation from *something*.

[Take2]

Hi In-N-Out... .   you didn't say how you guys wound up seeing eachother again after the last goodbye the other day?  I am curious about what happened with you guys as well as admittedly painfully searching for any behaviors that I can relate back to my own severely painful situation (which is currently nothing like yours anyway)... .

What about the cruise?  when is it?

I know how good it feels to have times like these that you just shared with her... . I truly, truly hope it will continue for you... .   I rooting for you!

[maxsterling]

Something about your story makes me want to feel really sad for your ex.  She seems like she has good intentions, just are overwhelmed by confusion.  That's the real heartbreaking part of this disorder, and the part that keeps us hooked.  If the disregulation were constant, we'd tire and eventually have enough.  It's those pwBPD that seem to want the confusion to end, seem to see the right path, but just have a hard time staying on it that are just so hard to walk away from.  And I am sure I from your end, you just want to see the light bulb go off - that she knows what she wants, realizes she can have what she wants, but that she has to do the work and is willing.  it seems like she is getting there - but really, I'm sure it has seemed like that many, many times before. 

As for the "comfortably numb" - I think we probably have to have some of that to be in a r/s with a pwBPD.  To make it work long term, hold on to the boundaries that are essential (maybe in regards to infidelity, physical abuse, or drug abuse), and become somewhat "numb" to the rest - the indecisiveness, the occasional disregulation.  I've gotten to that point myself - wishing she was more capable, but accepting the reality of what is with a bit of numbness.

[In_n_Out]

Hi Take2. 

you didn't say how you guys wound up seeing eachother again after the last goodbye the other day?

 

I went by her house two days later and took a gamble that she would receive the visit ok.  It was last Saturday before her parents came to town.

But, major SNAFU caused by me this time last night.  Yesterday she reached out and asked if I could be at her eating spot for her lunch break.  I rearranged my schedule and made it happen and we had a wonderful, short lunch together.  I picked some wild-flower-weeds which brought a smile to her face and she talked about looking for a new job and that she too wants to "detoxify" (I did a body detox over the weekend).  All very positive stuff.

I came home, took a nap and was awoken with a sweet text from her.  I went to the gym and my chemical balance was off.  I have a nagging injury that prevented me from doing the weights that I normally lift with and though we had started texting just after she left work, the texting abruptly stopped.  My insecurities hit and I sent a text that I will forever regret sending.  It wasn't malicious (intentionally), it was just my insecurities coming out and I was fishing for a response that played off of jealousy and that was absolutely the worst thing in the world that I could of done.  It doesn't matter what it said.  It was just plain dumb because I was feeling down and insecure.  Totally my fault.

She replied with "don't $hit on my day.  Don't you do this to me!" and she said that she was going for a walk and shutting down her phone.  I stopped my workout and raced over to her place.  She was out walking.  She was pissed.  She doesn't rage, but she was boiling inside.  I JADE'd and things did not go well.  No arguing but no reprieve either.  I told her how sorry I was for that and what a dumbass I am but to her, it was something that I said intentionally just to hurt her. 

I sat out in my car in her driveway for a bit beating my head against the steering wheel (almost literally but not quite). She did come back out and gave me a hug and said "go home.  Go be with your son".

I took a bath and while moping in self-pity my phone blew up with text messages from her.  She was unleashing now.  How I should go see my T, how this was what she feared the most; that it would go back to this.  That she was starting to believe in us again and now this.  She concluded the rampage with "no more".

So I sent off one email that said how truly sorry that I am, and that I did not send that text to hurt her intentionally, as much as I know it doesn't seem that way to her otherwise.  That I understand how that hurt her and how a beautiful Easter day with tears of joy, laughter and smiles was all wiped away and lost with a single, thoughtless, insensitive text from a guy that loves her very much but was feeling insecure at the moment.

I suspect she'll never read that.  And I know now that all that I can do is give her space and see if she cools off and reaches out to me again.  I don't know this time.  I did confirm all of her worst fears about us; what she's been saying all along as to why she can't just run back in to my arms. 

Pastor said on Sunday that there has to be setbacks before you can have your comeback.  Well, last night was one doozy of a setback and if there is a comeback, I don't know that it will be with her by my side.  It will be some other type of comeback but I have to just have faith that it is all in God's plans, or for you non-believers, that it is just fate as it was meant to be.

[In_n_Out]

I will say that she was quite validating.  During the walk, she said "I know that you're hurting.  I know that I F'd up by getting in to something that I shouldn't have (replacement) and I'm working to resolve that (promising), but I *never* threw it in your face like you have done.  And for the record, I haven't been playing any games with you. I've been trying to figure out my life, for *me*".

The walk concluded when she said "I need to be alone now".  I told her that I understood and she said "no, I mean I need to be alone.  Not with you, not with (him), just alone".

She's absolutely right and I'm really down right now.  In shock at my stupidity. 

[sirhero]

Wow, well it's been awhile since I posted on these boards. INO I've followed your story up until now and felt as though I needed to post. I have to commend you for sticking with this for as long as you have. It seems that you're very deep in the FOG. Reading your post, I would get happy when you would decide to block her and get on with your life. Then I would get a bit upset when you would go back to suffer. I know you want to work things out with her, but I honestly think you really just need to give her some space. Focus on you and making yourself happy. Weren't you kind of dating someone? What happened with that? I'm going to be blunt, but you need to stop sacrificing your happiness on something that isn't even certain. I'm much younger than you, but I've been down this road already and it doesn't end well trust me.

Maybe sometime down the road you two can reconnect, but it obviously isn't working right now and you shouldn't be feeling guilty about having an insecurity you're only human. Be gentle with yourself. She's telling you to go see your T... . what about her? Is she seeing her T? I bet she isn't. She's placing blame on you to push it off herself. You need to man up my friend and stop taking this abuse from her. I'm sorry if I am coming off as harsh, but I just feel bad for you and the situation. I know you will continue to talk to her and try to work things out. But when will enough be enough? If this is going to continue might I suggest starting a blog?

[In_n_Out]

Well, a bit of encouragement that I really needed.  A text from her just now:

":)on't have the strength to read your email, just yet... . I love you.  That will always be."

Still really down on myself right now but that text was somewhat comforting.  Now I'm in the Guilt part of the FOG, wondering if it's been me that's been the problem all along. 

[In_n_Out]

If this is going to continue might I suggest starting a blog?

Probably best to do so.  Or just keep a private journal.  This is a r/s that has a guy that has bouts of depression and insecurity issues mixed with a pwBPD and as much as we love each other, that is just a lot of challenges to overcome.

Thanks all that participated, including sirhero, for all of your advice and input.  I really do appreciate it. 

[cosmonaut]

Hang in there, I/O.  A relationship with a pwBPD is one of the hardest relationships one can ever have.  You really do have to sort of completely remove your needs and wants from the relationship to make it work.  It takes an enormous amount of selflessness  to do.  I'm not sure it's sustainable for anyone to keep up forever.  Sooner or later you are inevitably going to have a normal human response to something and there will be hell to pay.   You know all this, of course.  You've said as much in this thread.  My point, however, is try not to be hard on yourself.  Maybe you said something that you regret, but you are sorry and you apologized.  Most people are capable of weighing the one mistake a partner makes against the countless hours of love and care they have also given.  pwBPD can't do that, of course.  If you hurt them, everything else is out the window.  You are a terrible person and all the wonderful things you have done cease to exist.  You have shown SO much love and patience and understanding to your ex.  The good you have done towers above any mistakes that you have made (and we ALL make mistakes in relationships - including our pwBPD).  Don't be too hard on yourself, buddy.

And I enjoy keeping up on what's going on with you.  You keep right on posting if you want to do so.

Hang in there, man.  I feel for you.  I know these relationships are both heaven and hell.

[In_n_Out]

Thanks Cosmo, I do appreciate the pep talk.

I was really down today but refrained from texting aside from the short reply when she said that she didn't have the strength at the moment but loves me (anyways).  Then just a little while ago, she sent a picture of her feet in the grass with her red lunch box/bag thingie that I got her years ago... . she simply said "my lunch today".  I thanked her for sending the picture and she replied "please just give me some time".  So I'm going to give her some kudos here.  I know that the stupid text that I sent triggered some past hurt.  I can say some stupid things (can't we all?) and as we know, a pwBPD takes that stuff to heart.  I've never said anything malicious - never called her a name or even cursed at her, but I've invalidated her emotions and that is a sore spot so this episode last night obviously triggered that.  However, instead of just painting me black and going NC, she simply said "just give me some time". 

Now she may process it and say "you know what, he's hurt me one time too many and that was it" or she may realize that the good things have far outweighed the few negative things.  In either case, at least she's saying "let me have some time to process it" and not just running.  I'll take the positive from that and give her the space she's asking for.

[cosmonaut]

Hoping for the best for you.  I think you are right on - give her some space.  I'm 99% confident she will contact you soon.  I keep praying she sees the light and starts realizing she needs some help to be happy.  So she can have a happy marriage and a stable life and all the things she deep down wants but has no idea how to get.  I'll keep praying for you guys.