Im in a big bind

[cantbreal]

Im new here my wife walked out in Sept and took my 7 year old daughter I had no clue she was BPD the whole time up till about Feb I was trying to figure out why they left to begin with, I spent as much time as I could with my daughter however after they moved the child was afraid to go back in her old home, my wife would always say we can't force it she will be ok take some time, in my trance I agreed once I figured the BPD out and everything made sense I now sit here trying to get my daughter to spend time with me in her old home and she won't do it, its always mommy mommy mommy heck when we lived together I was the one that always went out on the weekends, and weeknights after work rode bikes played tag, monkey bars, played in puddles, climbed trees etc now she cries when I go to take her even for just a few hours, wife still says we can't pressure her to stay overnight with me, I have been painted black the last few weeks so I am getting the silent treatment I go to her condo play with the kid maybe 2 weeknights and on weekends maybe get her every other or when mom "lets" me come by and see her we play while mom either lays in her bedroom or runs out somewhere. I had enough wife said she wanted a divorce and was setting up mediation so I text her tonight to make the appt set the date and we will meet there  I also text her I want established times I can see my child during the week and weekend and it has to be at my house well did I get the nastiest text back first she said there will be no talk of divorce as of right now and that I can come by anytime to see our child further more I am in no position to make demands of what I want, wife said stop making the child about us, I was like what the heck by the way we never have discussed with our child what was going on the wife said we will tell her when its time. Look Im out of the fog I know now what a monster she is and I want nothing of it, she is not accepting divorce and she is using our child as a tool, I can file but after 7 months I want my kid back the wife she can go pound sand, what do I do, I of course was the bad guy in the relationship (except to the people that know me) her parents have passed (her mother died little over a month ago she hated her mom but has been playing the poor me card) in my first post I talked about the debt we acquired and that my house was being foreclosed on, I need to get my life back on track and it has to start with getting away from this BPD person that has controlled me and made my life hell, I want my daughter back

[marbleloser]

First, your wife has established status quo in regards to where the child has been staying. For 7 months,the better part of a year, your daughter has been with mom. This is an alienation tactic,and it's working.

Right now,you need to stop taking advice from your soon to be ex. Quit letting her call the shots! See where it's getting you? She has no respect for you as a man,or a father.

You need to see an attorney today! If you let this sit,you'll be lucky to get every other weekend with your kid.

You need a gameplan. One that you work with your attorney in obtaining.

The first thing I'd do is, file for divorce due to abandonment. Ask that the child be returned to the marital home,and that YOU get exclusive rights to that home,as your wife abandoned it.

Where's the kiddo going to school? has mom changed schools?

Make no mistake,she's playing you like a fiddle. You are going to have to fight to secure your rights as "dad".

[livednlearned]

marbleloser is right, cantbreal.

Your wife is alienating your daughter from you. You need to read Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak, which will help you understand what is happening. There is a lot written about this exact tactic. Your wife has told your daughter something about you to make her afraid of being in the house, and it's working. That has effectively given your wife all the control.

If you can get your daughter in to see a therapist, do it quick. Someone who has experience with reunification will be best. If you can't get your daughter in to see someone (your ex obstructing, for example), talk to a child therapist and ask for guidance on how to work with your daughter.

[Unleashed]

Sorry to hear.  I am also involved in a similar set.  Some thoughts below that worked with me.

1) I got all the child's medical records, i.e. request from doctor. Know every prescription child is on, etc.

2) I show up at the school for little things freqently, shows that I care to staff. Schools have a counselor, meet with him/her and get them chatting with your kid.

3) Identify all social activities child is involved in.

4) When spending time with child, playfully photograph interactions a little. I mean small camera 2 shots per event, low key.  Keeping a gallery of meaningful family time with child is helpful to you.

5) Your daughter is 7, good time to get a little philosophical-abstract. Child says ":)addy, I know you are in trouble with mom."  you respond "I would love to know what trouble really means to you, I know it means different things to different people... . "  Going abstract, showing interest, derailing the accusation while not berating the mom is an effective technique that intrigues my D5 and gets her thinking progressively.

6) Do a USPS change of address from mom's place (for daughter's name only) to a PO box of your choosing. Do not let people find out this secret PO box.  The mother will not easily reverse the transfer order if she does not know the new PO box number.  It is one more datapoint for you to legally seize, mail... .

7) Secretly record any audio of your daughter making any "Mommy said you... . " statements, the alienation will spew from her conversation as soon as she is comfortable with you again.

So you do care, and were the principle parent earlier on, good. By knowing some of the list above you can be better prepared when custody questions come up (legal climate depositions etc)  "Which parent goes to doctors visits"  ":)o you know the reason your child is on ... . med?"  ":)o you know the name of your child's teacher?"

I am only separated, but these things were happening, including secretive doctors appointments for my kids. I sent formal letters, got a hold of people, broke the shell.  You do not want to answer "hmm, not sure" when push comes to shove for custody.

It seems like you are squared away in parenting, just a little soft.  Interesting events, I have similar stuff going on, I do not take my D5's comments to heart, and she flips back and forth in my case a lot.  Thick skin is needed, and a calm, confident demeanor.

Hang in there.

[cantbreal]

Thanks unleashed, very helpful its all so true I went to back to school night I had text me ex and asked if she would be going got no reply I showed up and she was there with my D7 ex acted like things are normal, I had also text her that I would be setting up a mediation date Friday, walked around school with them both never talked directly to ex, when we left I told her in parking lot I would be texting her the date for mediation she said, fine then when I got home she text me that she would be making the date and she wanted the divorce ASAP, we then spoke on the phone and she blamed me for the full failure of our marriage, its sad I do love this woman and have known her 20 years I am really going to miss her it sucks we are going to have to stay in constant contact it is going to kill me

[Unleashed]

and she wanted the divorce ASAP

Mine goes from right now threats to not doing it.  Back and forth. Consider the law... . Apart from 3rd world countries, an American situation will not result in immediate divorce unless someone lies about suspected adultery, then once denied, it fails to separation, eh.

its sad I do love this woman and have known her 20 years

You deserve better, you loved her in a sense. But: the problem with me was that I had brotherly love "Fileo" for all people including my wife when I married her. Basically, ahh she needs help right now, I'll sacrifice myself.  Being young I did it.  That is not really love. There are 4 greek words for love: Agape, eros, fileo, storge.  Take a little time to look up each one. Most people have too much eros, and get in trouble. Some people on this board have a lot of fileo and storge, and get in servitude relationships (me, you, etc.)  You really need to re-think what gave you sense of complete love for her; and how can that be so if she... . ?  Us victims need a few months to define love before we claim it, it is natural.  The BPD'ers need to define love too, theirs is idealistic, sadistic, and unreachable ( a sort of veni vidi vici type of thing) and not defined correctly in any sphere of discourse. The difference is that we can find and enjoy the concept with time, they typically do not.

[cantbreal]

She has set the mediation date this Tuesday 10am I called and confirmed I wonder what I will be walking into, if its bad I guess I will have to get an attorney I know she is going to try and keep this child from me

[livednlearned]

She has set the mediation date this Tuesday 10am I called and confirmed I wonder what I will be walking into, if its bad I guess I will have to get an attorney I know she is going to try and keep this child from me

How does mediation work in your state? I would recommend consulting with an attorney before mediation begins. Typically consultations will run $100 or so for 30 minutes. Write a list of questions down and take those questions with you when you talk to an attorney.

With BPD, mediation is usually about a list of demands that you are expected to comply with. Go into mediation asking for more than you will settle for, so you have something to negotiate with. Do not agree to less than what your attorney thinks the court would award you. And if it looks like she will not be reasonable, don't spend too much time in mediation. It can cost several hundred dollars an hour in my state.

That's why it's good to work out in your mind ahead of time what she is likely to offer, what your best-case scenario is, what you won't accept, etc.

Given how she has played you up to this point, my advice would be to seek legal counsel right away and treat mediation as a charade.

[Matt]

Good inputs from everyone... .

Where I live, the key is "temporary orders".  You file a motion with the court asking for temporary orders to be issued, which say who the child will be with and when.

You can say, for example, "Temporary residential custody for Father at [address].  Child to be in Mother's care every weekend from noon Saturday to noon Sunday.  Exchanges to be a [mother's address] - Father will bring Child there at noon Saturday and pick Child up noon Sunday." or something like that.

The other party can fight it and there may be a hearing.  You need to give very clear reasons why your proposal is best for the child.  You can say, "I am concerned that being with Ms. Ex too much may be alienating Daughter from me." or "I am concerned that Ms. Ex may be telling Daughter negative things about me or somehow alienating her from me." but try not to speculate about what you don't know.

If you have evidence of patterns of behavior that could be bad for your daughter, you can include that - "Attached is such-and-such which shows that Ms. Ex is acting hostile toward me." or something like that.  Just make sure you are fair and base what you say on information the court can see and evaluate.  Unsupported accusations might work against you.

The sooner you get the court to establish temporary orders, the better.  Then you will have the right to see your daughter without your wife's "permission".

Also, I would suggest you quit talking to your wife - only communicate by e-mail and only about your daughter.  Any direct, face-to-face communication or phone calls put you at risk of being accused of something - she can say you threatened her and she might be believed - you'll be considered guilty til proven innocent.  You might even face criminal charges - many of us have experienced that.  The only way to protect yourself is not to be around your wife without an non-family adult third party present all the time.

[cantbreal]

Thanks for the input I am in NJ I had talked to an attorney about a month ago she had told me that "joint custody" would be 1 day a week every other weekend which is a joke, my ex says I am free to see my child whenever I want, under her terms of course and at her condo she also says we don't need to talk about divorce to the child I don't get that, she is getting worse with me now that we are actually getting divorced I think she has been trying to hold off on that part because I am the reason she has been in such peril her whole life with me away from the picture eventually I can't be blamed, I know before she had stated that I would never get my child during the week overnight because of school, I live as close as she does to my childs school so I don't see why that should matter, never figured Id be here its bad I miss my child we always played and I loved helping her learn it will never be the same and that hurts so much

[livednlearned]

Thanks for the input I am in NJ I had talked to an attorney about a month ago she had told me that "joint custody" would be 1 day a week every other weekend which is a joke, my ex says I am free to see my child whenever I want, under her terms of course and at her condo she also says we don't need to talk about divorce to the child I don't get that, she is getting worse with me now that we are actually getting divorced I think she has been trying to hold off on that part because I am the reason she has been in such peril her whole life with me away from the picture eventually I can't be blamed, I know before she had stated that I would never get my child during the week overnight because of school, I live as close as she does to my childs school so I don't see why that should matter, never figured Id be here its bad I miss my child we always played and I loved helping her learn it will never be the same and that hurts so much

If you can, order a copy of Splitting by Bill Eddy and read the whole thing this weekend. There is a digital version on Google Play and Amazon, so you can get it immediately and read it on your computer -- it will be the best money you ever spent.

Someone has given your wife advice. She moved out and established the status quo, and you are in a disadvantage that is not disastrous, but it will be if she blindsides you in mediation.

Shared custody is not great, but your lawyer may be right -- every other weekend plus one overnight is very common for the dad. But there are places to gain some extra time. For example, you might insist on one overnight starting after school Wednesday until Thursday morning, as well as having her the entire weekend until Monday morning. My ex did not have overnight Wednesdays in the beginning, and did not have overnight Sundays. That meant that my ex had only two overnights every two weeks. Then he worked up to Wednesday overnights, and that gave him four overnights every two weeks.

There is room to negotiate with your child. You need to insist on overnights. You D is 6 and she is plenty old enough, and you are plenty capable enough to care for her overnight. Overnights needs to be your bottom line -- if your ex cannot agree to that in mediation, then end the session.

[Matt]

Don't assume that you can't get primary custody, and don't assume that you can't get 50/50.  If you go for primary custody, and show that you are ready and able to be a great 24/7 parent, and maybe also show that your wife has some problems - maybe get psych evals and see what they show - you might get primary custody, or maybe 50/50.

Talk with other lawyers.  Yours sounds like a loser - she is telling you what can't be done instead of how to do what needs to be done.  Find somebody who knows how to handle a case like yours - who has handled similar cases in the past and learned from it.

And "Splitting" is the perfect resource, plus Eddy's web site, www.HighConflictInstitute.com.

[cantbreal]

One of the biggest problems I have is my daughter doesn't want to stay overnight with me she is all about mommy and when I spend time with her she always goes back to I want mommy, I am not sure how I work up to getting her to stay with me, we did it for 6 years when we all lived together but my child doesn't like my house now and will start to overreact and shut down if I tell her she has to stay with me

[livednlearned]

One of the biggest problems I have is my daughter doesn't want to stay overnight with me she is all about mommy and when I spend time with her she always goes back to I want mommy, I am not sure how I work up to getting her to stay with me, we did it for 6 years when we all lived together but my child doesn't like my house now and will start to overreact and shut down if I tell her she has to stay with me

This will get even worse if you don't get overnights. She is being alienated -- there are excellent strategies in Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak to help you handle this. Right down to how to phrase what you say to your daughter when she says these things.

You're not just fighting for time with your daughter, you're fighting for her emotional and mental health. She is a child and is making choices based on an adult who is emotionally a child. Does that make sense? Your w may be saying things like, "If you stay at daddy's I will miss you so much. You're my best friend, and you won't be happy there. He was mean to me and I don't want him to be mean to you."  On and on. That's the mild version of what she might be saying.

I'm being blunt -- I know you're hurting, and this is hard, and it feels very unstable and unfair. But your situation is not unique to what people here experience, so we're trying to give you some advice early when things start to get nailed down in legal documents, to help you avoid mistakes that are difficult to fix later on. Temporary custody orders become permanent -- they may be called temporary, but they're not. And once you start saying yes to certain things, you can't go back and undo those agreements without a serious change in circumstances. Every legal document you sign, a door closes that you can't open again.

Read Splitting this weekend, and Divorce Poison too. You'll see the entire picture in those two books.

If you get into mediation on Tuesday and feel conflicted about anything, cancel the session. Don't sign anything until you understand what it means for you and your daughter long-term. Slow things down until you understand what's happening.

[Nope]

Yes, you need to enforce overnights as a way to fight alienation. My DF's ex has been trying everything she could for years to get his kids to hate him and not want to see him and it hasn't worked. A big part of the reason for that has been that over the years they have heard what she has said and then seen that what she says is untrue. It took a few years, but BPD mom lost all credibility with them. Now they cope by agreeing with her when they are with her but shedding that mask the second she is in the rear view mirror. Now they are always happy to see us and have a great relationship with their dad.

[david]

I think you may want to talk to another atty. You can ask for an extension if it is the court ordered mediation. I know someone in NJ and the court ordered mediation is the start of the process. Their mediation date, by the courts, was two months from the time it was made. A few days is not usual. Having the extra time gives you a pattern, by documenting, to show that stbx is keeping the child from you. This would be helpful in gaining more time. Email communication is a good way of documenting.

[cantbreal]

She played the poor me card in mediation, we agreed on everything but custody she wants and open agreement so we are not "tied down" to certain days meaning she can sit there and say sure 50/50 split but when its my time she can just change up the plans and with no court order  I have nothing, I have now had 3 overnights with my daughter the first night my ex sent me 50 text messages telling me everything from bring the child home, I don't know how to care for her, I now after 7 years want to be a father, to I ruined her plan and we were not suppose to be divorced, she can't take me back now and it just went on and on, I just ignored all of it and kept the messages, she is just out of her mind, now I have also put enough together that she has been sleeping with my friend of over 30 years who lives around the corner from me with his wife and 7 year old daughter  Real nice friend huh?

[Matt]

Show all those text messages to your lawyer and her lawyer and ask her lawyer to tell her to stop that.

If she doesn't have a lawyer ask your lawyer to send the text messages to the court.

Don't agree to anything you don't think is good.  Don't let her wear you down.

Find out how it will work if there is no agreement - will you talk to the judge then?

[cantbreal]

I just have had enough there is no civil way I tried she is crazy going to my atty and having court order set with custody support and set times she just keeps pushing and pushing and Im being to nice I let her control me and ruin me for too long, I have also heard from all the neighbors that she went around telling them how mean I was to her and our daughter that I never spent anytime with our child however they all tell me al they saw was me out there all the time and when they did see her she was drinking so that didn't work around here

[momtara]

Hey, you are letting her harassment get to you.

She looks BAD with her 50 text messages.

In New Jersey they are trying to be fairer to dads these days, and many dads get 50/50 if they are not nuts or a bad influence.  So as hard as it is when you are being harassed, you have to stay calm and be the sane one.  Don't argue back.

50 texts can seem like harassment (they are!) so do show your lawyer. 

Once again:  Stay calm.  My x-husband did a lot of harassment and filed for primary custody even though he never saw the kids.  He intimidated me so much that I just wanted any solid agreement so I'd know when I would see the kids.  At some point, the NJ courts force a custody mediation, so you have to decide on a parenting plan soon rather than later.  (In most counties, anyway.)

As many here will tell you, temporary orders can become permanent.  So if you nail down a plan, fight for all the overnights you can get.  Or at least, whatever you think is reasonable.  Don't just take anything in order to get away from her.

[david]

She is getting in your head. Stop allowing that. I think Matt said that years ago.

Focus on what you think is best for the child. Write it down. Then ask for more and settle for what you really think ios best. Ignore what she says. It does take time for that but the sooner you get past that the better it will be for everyone involved. My ex ran away in 2007. I tried to co parent for three years. Yea, I'm slow. After sitting in prison for two weeks because of false allegations I realized I needed to make more, better, and lasting changes. I set up good boundaries and stuck to them. I still get emails telling me everything is my fault. I don't reply. I save them for my atty. I live in Pa. They have a support group and I believe they are in N.J.too. They are called face (families and childrens equality) . They are a good resource and you can get more specific info for your state. I learned things at their meetings about Pa. that my attty never told me about. I found an atty through the group members and things are improving.

[ForeverDad]

What your spouse is doing to you is inundating you with constant and endless demands, claims and posturing.  Her goal is to have you keep wilting as a parent and father.  (So far it has worked and so no wonder she keeps doing it.  )

Frankly, nothing good will come out of mediation attempts, at least not at this early stage, she's too entitled and empowered right now.  Yes, you have some sort of agreement on parenting but I bet it is so vague that you can't enforce it.  A rule of thumb for mediation is that Mediation Does Not Have to Succeed, if it does at this early stage then you've gifted away too much.

Boundaries - She doesn't have any boundaries that she respects.  So... . you have to have boundaries for yourself.  If you are parenting, then parent.  If she obstructs, then seek support from police or family court to resolve the conflict.  Without an order then only family court can resolve it.  The current vague agreement may not be worth the paper it's written on, it's probably that vague, giving her latitude to sidestep all your parenting efforts.  Is it enforceable?  Have you gotten legal consultations with family law attorneys to find out where you stand, your options and possible strategies?

Rule #1 - She will try to make you look worse than her.  Do absolutely nothing that would give her an opportunity to claim DV, DV threats, harassment, stalking, child abduction, child abuse, child neglect, child endangerment, etc.  Otherwise she will try to get restraining orders or protection orders against you and trumped up claims and allegations.  (Based on what she has done thus far, I can virtually guarantee you that she will file for TPO or TRO at some point.  Of course, if she hasn't thought of it, don't give her the idea.  She will want to waltz into family court waving all sorts of papers claiming your name is Mr. Evil Personified.  Be forewarned.  Get legal advice on all this, your lawyer will pooh pooh this as not that bad, but it is and it will be.)

Counseling - Your daughter needs to get into counseling ASAP so you have some support in deflecting all the alienation strategies your ex is employing on her and against you.

Temp order - the first thing domestic/family court will do is set a temporary order.  It will state who has temp custody (usually defaulting to the parent who currently has had the child) and a parenting schedule (often one parent is selected to have majority time and the other parent to get alternate weekends and an evening or overnight in between).  That is why every time she claims only she is parenting then you have to state you were a very involved parent until she abandoned the home and has since Blocked your parenting.  Every time she makes her claim, you object and state the facts.  I can't overemphasize the need to walk out with the best order possible (or least unfavorable) because it will be an uphill struggle - time and multiple evaluations or hearings - to get it improved.

For example, in 30 minutes my ex walked out with temp custody and majority time.  The magistrate never changed it during the two year divorce process.  So it took 2 years to get equal time, another 3 years to get custody, another... . you get the idea: Corrections to a bad order take time and money, so get the best you can as soon as you can.

If there is no order setting one parent in charge then check with your lawyer and most likely either one of you can legally start daughter in counseling.  By the way, if you advise your ex in advance she will obstruct you with everything she has, so start it first before telling her.  Another "by the way", ex is sure to object, perhaps even start World War 3 but stand your ground, later on when it gets before a judge it is far easier to ask a judge to keep your daughter in counseling than to ask to start counseling, especially if the judge is already inclined to let your ex make major decisions.  As my lawyer explained to me, courts love counseling.  Your goal needs to be to get your daughter to a very experienced and perceptive counselor who isn't easily fooled or conned by an emotionally manipulative and pressuring ex.  Ex does not want any independent support for daughter, isolation, confusion, emotional blaming and control are her tactics.  Ex will try to block, sabotage or commandeer any counseling, be aware, beware.

Don't you think it is time to come over to the Family Law, Divorce & Custody board?

[broken3]

I am with FD and David,

No offense. But stop letting her walk all over you. I am guilty of the same things and it took me quite a while till I said enough!

Set the rules and boundaries very fairly. Live by them. Execute them. And then let the chips fall where they may.

[Matt]

Yeah, most of us have real problems setting and maintaining boundaries.  Maybe we had those problems before we got into the relationship, or maybe being in a relationship with somebody that doesn't respect boundaries makes us sloppy.  Either way, when we end the relationship, it's pretty important to get much better about this.

"If you do X I will do Y."  Then if she does X, you do Y.

"If you speak inappropriately to me, or raise your voice, I will hang up."

"If you do not bring Child home at the agreed time, or call me to work it out, I will call the police and report it."

Or whatever boundaries you decide are right for you and your situation... .

[livednlearned]

Set the rules and boundaries very fairly. Live by them. Execute them. And then let the chips fall where they may.

Do this even if your heart isn't there yet. Eventually, you'll arrive at this point of understanding, so might as well start practicing now. Get to know how things work in your state, and detach as much as you can, and keep being a great parent to your D.