Scratching my head again

[maxsterling]

The positive:  The past few days have been the best in terms of her mood and stability in probably a year.  Yeah, there was one episode related to meeting my sister, but overall this is a welcome relief!  She's made two dinners in the past week - without complaining!  And - she helped take the trash can to the street, has apologized for hurtful or manipulative behavior, acts a bit more optimistic, and troubling things haven't been troubling her for as long. 

But today, I am drawn back to the diagnosis criteria for BPD after answering a person's post on the intro board.  I've been reading over the diagnosis and treatments, and am just scratching my head.  She easily meets all 9 criteria in the DSM-IV.  Not only does she meet them, she readily admits to them or makes direct statements supporting them.  "I feel empty."  "Why can't I keep friendships or jobs?"  She's was diagnosed BPD many years ago.  She's gone through years of DBT.  She readily admits to the  criteria of BPD.  So why doesn't she recognize this for what is and able to consciously stop it?

When I know I have a behavior or action that is holding me back, I consciously try and change that.  But with her - she will repeat the same bad decision over and over, despite knowing full well what the consequences will be. and make excuses, or blame others.  Does she not believe she has BPD, or that there is such a thing?  It just makes no sense.  She knows she has issues, has been told what they are, and for the most part agrees with them.  So why can't she make the conscious effort to not repeat mistakes?  Makes me think there is something else going on - such as brain chemistry - and that there is no amount of conscious effort on her part that can set things right. 

[mapys]

Well, I am purely speculating as I don't have a slightest proof of evidence but... .

I think in order to operate as human being, there is some sort of self-protection mechanism built into their brain, that doesn't allow to truly see and comprehend what they are doing. If they were able to see themselves from aside, I guess they couldn't tolerate that and the suicide rate would be more than 10% of BPD sufferers.

It is a very cruel nature's trick.

Yes, they understand that they are doing wrong, because they have been told that it hurts others but they just can't feel it - protection mechanism keeps them away from this knowledge. A very huge maze comes to mind, if we are to explain where they are trapped in their brains. Only the best of best can find their way out of the maze, most just give up.

Naive analogy but... .

[In_n_Out]

Hey Max,

After speaking to my ex the past few days and telling her how proud I am that she's gone to "a" counseling session but all the while hoping that she goes the extra mile to seek CBT/DBT treatment but being told that "I'm strong and can do this myself", I have thrown up my hands and said "I'm a friend if you need me.  If you need someone to support you with that; go to "family and friends" meetings, etc, I'd be happy to do that.  Otherwise, I pray that you are strong enough to *finally* make some changes *this time*. 

She won't though and honestly, I think we nons would have a much better chance at pushing a heroin addict to get help and support and to heal from that than a pwBPD... . because they will never be *cured*.  And reading that yours has been through DBT for years just discourages me to the thought that mine could ever be anything more than a "selfie-posting, oh woah is me, I shall overcome" biographer on facebook. 

They *do* know that something ain't ticking right.  They do want it all to stop so that they can "just love and be loved" but their programming has a large syntax error and unclosed loop in it and unfortunately, nobody has access to the code to make the proper changes.  Oh sure, there may be some tweaks that can be thrown in there, but the code is still and always will be fundamentally broken. 

I hate to sound so negative but that is my realization.  I have offered support, given advice, encouragement and preached until I was blue in the face and all of that has gone in one ear and out the other.  She doesn't read past the first paragraph of any email that I send her.  If I talk to her in person, she gets those "far away eyes" that tells me she doesn't want to hear any more about herself.  I know that I can't "fix" her, but nor have I been able to encourage her to do the work and the research to help herself.  Life is just too short to waste it on people that can't... . no, are unable... . to help themselves.

I love her to death, but I'll let my replacement beat his head against the wall and then the next guy, and the next guy, and the next guy. 

Good luck brother.  Sometimes you just have to pull the troops and concede defeat to save the entire army.  Ya know?

[maxsterling]

Thanks so much, guys.  I don't know if my post was just a vent, or a plead for some kind of hope.  She knows, she understands, but when does the change happen?  I suppose over the long scale, change has happened.  She no longer cuts, she no longer uses Heroin.  But she has to know on some level her spending and her sleeping around (prior to me) are addictions as well, and if I wasn't around she'd do the same damn thing all the while articulating how bad it is for her. 

The other morning she asked me if I threw tantrums as a kid.  I said "no, not that I have heard about".  She then asked if I thought she threw tantrums.  I said "yes".  She asked why I thought that.  I said "well, most kids do, so I was playing law of averages."  She replied, "Oh, I thought it was because I throw tantrums now."  And last night she was talking about a behavior women have in Korea where they get upset in public and stomp their feet and act like babies to get what they want from their men.  She said how sexist and screwed up that is.  I replied, "well, many women act like that here."  To that she said, "Yeah, I guess I act like a baby sometimes to you." 

She also remarked last night that she was talking to her aunt about me, saying "we don't really argue.  Well, he doesn't really argue.  I argue, and he doesn't argue back, so I give up, feel stupid, and apologize."  The aunt replied, "that's just like my husband!"

All these things she can see as issues, yet no change in behavior.  She will remark how she needs to exercise more or she will wind up like her dad, yet can't force herself off the sofa to walk to the end of the street and back.  She will remark how she needs to be independent and have hobbies, yet all she thinks about are things that I can do with her.  She's even remarked how she feels like she has no identity. 

It all makes me think that there must be something else going on - something different about the way her brain is set up - and I don't know if this is a BPD thing, because from what I have read pwBPD can change their patterns with appropriate therapy and work once they accept they have a problem with their behavior.  She's also diagnosed bipolar, although I am not sure I agree with that diagnosis.  Also diagnosed PTSD, but I think this started way before many traumas in her life.  I do wonder if a decade or more of drug use starting at an early age damaged her brain, but again it sounds like the pattern was already in place before she started using. 

From my end - I hear her remark about how something she is doing is wrong or bad, and that gives me so much hope and I then expect a breakthrough or a change - yet a few days later it's back to square one.  This certainly does affect me being "undecided" - because I do need to see progress in her to move forward, and I think I see progress, then I realize that it's just words and not actions, and wonder if that's the way it was for all the boyfriends for the decade before me. 

[In_n_Out]

I just got tired of hearing the words and not seeing the proper action, or inaction.  And my apologies for the heroin reference, I had no idea about your gf.  Be proud that she has kicked that and it does sound like she has made some steps in the right direction. 

You know my story.  I would spend the entire week with my ex; hear how much she loves me and how I "understand" her and how close we are and how sorry she is for everything and just as I'm feeling good about what I'm hearing and thinking that change is coming, she goes and spends the night with my replacement because she's "stuck" and "doesn't want to hurt him or his family". 

Now your situation is different than mine in that yours isn't seeing someone else and it sounds like yours is getting the right kind of treatment (though mine had her 2nd appointment this morning).  I guess the question to ask yourself is "how much change does she need to make in order for me to feel comfortable marrying this woman and how long do I give her time to make that change?".  What if somehow you were to know that she would get no better whatsoever, but also would not get any worse.  Would you be ok with that?  If not, what thing(s) must be changed (or controlled) in order for you to be ok about the r/s?  When I asked myself those questions, it was just too much needed change and even *if* she could change/control/modify her behavior, I know that it's years and years away and continual work to just "maintain".

[maxsterling]

Good questions, I/O.  I think about this often.  Part of my issues in answering that center around the potential for children.  I may be okay with the current situation as long as it does not get worse.  But I know I can't raise a child in that situation.  To raise a child I would need to see:

- A significant decrease in violence, and that includes violent language.  The throwing things and raised voices and desperate pleas need to become rare, occurrences. Twice a year instead of twice a month.

- A significant change in her contributions to the relationship and the household.  Even though she doesn't like to, I do need her to part in cleaning and cooking and grocery shopping ON HER OWN.

- A change in personal mood - I'd like to see a majority of days either happy or neutral.  Nothing wrong with being depressed, but it cant be for 6 days a week.  No more waking up grumbling and being lazy for a few hours.  If we had a child, that child would need his/her needs met - and one of us will have to go to work.

If she was to come to me and say, "I don't feel happy enough to have a child, but I would still like to be with you," that would show me command over her life and make me feel much more secure for the future.  But I know it's ultimately going to come down to the child issue.

Child aside - I really don't need anything from her to change, I just need to know what "stable" is for her.  If she can't hold a job, that's fine, as long as she accepts that and doesn't make that my problem.  If she doesn't ever want to clean, that's fine, as long as she is okay with a messy house.  But right now, she can't accept either of those two examples - she occasionally puts it on me that I don't make enough money.  And she will claim the house is too messy and will not want to look at it, yet won't clean.  I really need to see a harmony between what she says she wants/needs and what she is capable of.   

[seeking balance]

I really don't need anything from her to change, I just need to know what "stable" is for her.  If she can't hold a job, that's fine, as long as she accepts that and doesn't make that my problem.  If she doesn't ever want to clean, that's fine, as long as she is okay with a messy house.  But right now, she can't accept either of those two examples - she occasionally puts it on me that I don't make enough money.  And she will claim the house is too messy and will not want to look at it, yet won't clean.  I really need to see a harmony between what she says she wants/needs and what she is capable of.   

How are you doing with your own Radical Acceptance practice?

Tami Green - have you watched ALL of her stuff on youtube?  I think it might help you with acceptance.

For the record, while I was in the relationship, I was not nearly as clear at seeing this stuff as I am out of it... . much easier to see the patterns not in the middle of it all - which is why mindfulness and meditation is so highly recommended for NONs.  Staying requires us to change too.

[SweetCharlotte]

It seems that now she is working and doing well in that regard. I hope this is a relief.

That is one big change you wanted to see. She will expect a reward. Since she doesn't have much time to wait on the baby issue, it sounds like the holding pattern in which you find yourself may come to a head. You continue to look at her past behavior as an indication of what to expect in the future, and this rationalizes your continuing to withhold commitment and children from her. However, no matter how much she loves you, she will have to make a decision soon about whether to move on in order to be a mother. With BPD and perhaps bipolar too, she may not make and act on this decision in the rational way that you would like to see.

As she becomes more of a functional person, her expectations for the relationship will increase. You can't expect her to take up hobbies at this point. If she wants motherhood, nothing can distract a woman her age from that goal.

[In_n_Out]

Just be careful Max because as you may recall from my story, my ex was feeling the "baby clock" big time and I'm 99% sure that she came to the realization that I wasn't going to budge on the kid idea and that's when she started painting me black and life at home became miserable and then she walked after I "mistreated" her (stopped validating her, etc).  Just be careful that your girl won't get so ancy about marriage and a kid that she starts to paint you black in order to justify her leaving (or her forcing a change in your behavior which then forces her to walk).

[MissyM]

Yes, I would be concerned about the baby issue.  My dBPDh was in a pretty good place when we decide to get pregnant.  Then all hell broke loose.  From what I am finding out from therapists, this is pretty common.  Having children can really escalate the BPD addict.  It is frustrating to me that my dBPDh has gone through periods of introspection and accountability, unfortunately they haven't ever lasted.  Hopefully your pwBPD will be able to continually make progress.

[maxsterling]

Thanks everyone - real good insights and advice, and all much appreciated as it helps me think about things from different perspectives.

Last night, she handled dinner again - for the third time in a week!  No, she didn't cook, but she went to the store and got a prepared meal, mostly on her own (she gave me a choice of A or B).  And she didn't complain.  And I thanked her for dinner.  What's important for me here is to not have to come home from work to be greeted with "I'm hungry".  After dinner, she said she had been feeling different the past few days.  I asked her how and why she thought that was.  She said she has been getting moments of "acceptance" but it's not happiness.  She doesn't know why or if anything prompted it.  I told her I noticed a mood change and it has been welcome.  

And then - she tried to persuade me not to go to my Nar-Anon meeting, saying we could have sex instead.  I reminded her that the meeting was important for me, so she decided to go to an AA meeting at the same time.  After I cam home, we were sitting on the sofa, and she remarked under her breath "you don't love me."  Umm.  That's an invalidation.  Yep, BPD still there.  And as we were lying in bed, "I love to touch you but you don't like to touch me."  BPD again.  Still I see overall progress.  

BTW, she hasn't officially started the job yet.  I have my fingers crossed, but history says it will last 2-3 months before she quits over stress.  If we get past that threshold, talking about starting a family may be prudent.  But she may decide "enough with his rules (boundaries)" and decide a different course.  I would be heartbroken, but really I already am heartbroken.  I just know it would probably destroy my life if we had a child before she showed any capably of taking care of herself.  Her leaving me would be ugly and she would try and blame me, but I think I could get over that in time.  

[In_n_Out]

Yeah, Max... . man, I went down that same road.  My ex had dreams of having a kid and has herself listed as being "cursed" because she had an abortion once.  I tried to be practical and rational (this was before I knew about BPD); "you can't hold a job for a year because of the stress, how are you going to care for a child that is throwing a tantrum at 2 in the morning?" and "how are we going to pay for a child if/when you quit work to raise the kid when we're struggling to pay this months electric bill?".  On top of that was her age (40 at that time) and medical history.  It was just so impractical to even consider having a kid and thankfully, we did not.  Oh, a child would be a gift from God and I'm so happy to have my two boys, but a child with the wrong woman... . man oh man.  Think 17 years of child support payments.

I just remembered but my ex would often comment when we were out at a restaurant or in public and a kid was throwing a fit "that's the best form of birth control right there... . I don't think that I could *ever* be a mother".  But in typical BPD fashion, she's talking about wanting a kid again the next night.  Tread carefully my friend.

[maxsterling]

I/O - yeah, sounds like a similar situation.  It's likely this could be the eventual breaking point for this r/s.   And it's just so confusing because at times if feels like she understands and the corner is about to be turned.  She wants the same things as me!  She wants to feel secure for the future, and secure in the relationship, just like me!  So, I think we should have a point of agreement - but then I realize we must live in different universes.  I shouldn't even have to explain how I need to feel secure financially and emotionally before having a child, because I would think that's the same kind of security she would want.  But somehow it doesn't work that way for her.  I'm not sure if it is her biologic clock and hormones mixing in, or if it is the BPD and not understanding personal and relationship responsibilities.   

And thus - the head scratching.  Why is she blaming me for feeling uneasy about having a child, when she knows full well that she is struggling to even take care of herself?  I know she understands - she's vocalized that before: "I sometimes worry that I won't be a good mother because I am too depressed." 

My GF had an abortion, too, about 2 years ago.  It was another one of those "traumatic experiences" that she put herself in.  She says she has regret over it, and of course blames the "father" for her decision.  But here are the facts as I see them - she was living overseas.  I don't think the "father" was someone she considered a "boyfriend" - see she doesn't understand the whole dynamic between friends, sex, and boyfriends.  *SHE* chose to not use any kind of birth control.  And my guess is she manipulated him, claimed it was a "safe" time, got pregnant, flipped out on him because he was scared (probably violently), then he tried to convince her to have an abortion claiming she was an unfit mother.  I don't blame the guy. 

I know some of her desire to have kids is hormonal.  But I also know a big part of it is BPD.  She's said "If I had a kid, I would have someone who would always love me and never leave... . "  And I also think a large part of it is baggage from the abortion.  I think she feels that if she had a child, the abortion would no longer hurt.

She seems to be receptive during couples T sessions, and slowly I've been bringing this kind of stuff up.  I probably need to be more direct about it, though. 

[maxsterling]

Well, she just called on my lunch break, to tell me she was freaking out again over money.  She just talked with the job recruiter for this job about career goals.  The recruiter basically told her that there is not much money in this field, to which she freaked out about and then questioned whether she should take the job.

  Here we go again.   

The good news - I've gotten better at talking with her.  So, I reminded her that disability money is guaranteed dead end, so this is definitely a step forward.   I reminded her that she can always be looking to move forward, and in a year she may be able to, but she can't unless she takes this step.  She pointed out that this is the same pay she made right out of college, and I reminded her that obviously that job did not work out for her and was the wrong field (otherwise she would have been in that field for 15 years now, probably making good money), and that part of moving forward means finding the right fit and moving up.  I tried to be as optimistic and uplifting as possible, while reminding her that nothing is going to happen until she climbs that first rung.

And then she started on about how I am not driven, how we are poor, and will always be poor, and she wants both of us to live up to our potentials (basically the blame shift here, AGAIN, to which I am growing very agitated by).  But rather than get defensive, I told her that I cannot go down that mental path, because if I let the future consume me, then I can't make good decisions about the steps I need to take today.  I told her that too much worry about the future locks me up, and then I will go nowhere, and that I know this because I have been there before - I get depressed, feel sorry for myself, and then just settle. (To be honest here, this r/s is a perfect example of this)  I explained that I have to approach life as steps forward in order to be happy today.  She then told me that she can't stop herself from thinking that way and hoped she did not ruin my lunch or bring me down.

I hope she listened, but the realist in me makes me think we will have the same discussion when she gets her first paycheck.  My hope is to get her to the point where she understands this is about feeling secure about what we have, not about a dollar amount.  Basically, I need to know who she is and what she wants (and saying "being rich and having a family" does not answer the question!)  And that's the self-defeating thing here - I can't move forward until she lives in the present.  Having a plan for the future is healthy, but frantically freaking out because she doesn't have the future RIGHT NOW, and changing her mind ever few months leaves me feeling insecure and undecided.

[seeking balance]

My hope is to get her to the point where she understands this is about feeling secure about what we have, not about a dollar amount.  Basically, I need to know who she is and what she wants (and saying "being rich and having a family" does not answer the question!)  And that's the self-defeating thing here - I can't move forward until she lives in the present.  Having a plan for the future is healthy, but frantically freaking out because she doesn't have the future RIGHT NOW, and changing her mind ever few months leaves me feeling insecure and undecided.

Your hope is future based too, isn't it?  Just different is all.

Radical Acceptance - from time to time, she is going to freak out about money, validate the emotions surrounding it, "I understand you feel XYZ about that job and money"  I mean, what is it that she feels... . do you know or are you assuming?

Problem solving for her is different than validating her emotional state and then stating a fact - it takes practice.

[mapys]

It is like taking care of a child - only grown child. How can you have children with a child? Doesn't add up. I can imagine situation where I could raise a child on my own - without additional emotional vampire, but together with emotionally unstable woman - sorry, I am not that strong.

Mine also bragged about how she wants kids - 4 of them (at least). She explained it to me pure and simple - kids are easy, you (meaning I) will be good with them (didn't mention anything about her own role - guess just chilling was planned), you will raise them, when they will be old enough they will look after each other. Very simple plan - just no mention about income - if I have to deal with kids, who will earn? She already had planned her maternity leave (she bragged how other women stay at home even till the time the youngster starts college) - she was fed up with her job - complained constantly.

I know that kids are not easy to raise - you have to forget about yourself for a certain time and it is not fair to deprive children of their childhood because parents should take care of their offsprings not their siblings. So much love, care and attention should be devoted to a child. So this imagined utopia of hers didn't resonate with my knowledge of family - but then again she has been raised differently - deprived of attention and love.

In addition in regard to personality disorders I came across information about post pregnancy depression, mood swings and acting out - didn't convince me, that I want such future. What I read was a medical text aimed at natal care specialists - so they would be able to see traits of this post-pregnancy depression, also personality disorders and suggest treatment. Thing is - it can be tough to distinguish if the symptoms are purely post-pregnancy or they are a part of ongoing BPD/NPD. The best part was, that these women MUST have treatment because a child doesn't feel safe when his mother is depressed, angry or anxious. So it interferes with the cognitive and emotional development of a child.

I don't want my child to be emotionally unstable - but as I will have to earn for the living, the most time the child will have to spend with his mother (or on his own). As I know how reluctant my exgf is  to acknowledging her issues, I don't see (I don't believe) that she even can get well (at least well enough to be there for the child). So that was a decisive factor for me.

So think really hard - it is not just your life, it is an unborn soul that might be compromised - really think this through, ask the therapist, maybe other specialists - what do they think.

[maxsterling]

Once again, thanks for the advice and wisdom, everyone.  It's much appreciate - keep it coming!

And once again, an interesting and head scratching few days have passed.  On the positive, she's now taken care of 4 dinners in the past week!  And she's helped with the dishes, cut down on her calling me at work, and generally been more positive and easier to be around.  And that has helped me communicate with her more directly.  So once again, I see the attempts at moving forward on her part.  But, still the same patterns:

- I think I posted the other week about her spending all afternoon at the dealership almost buying a new car at twice her current monthly payment.  I had to remind her that the week prior she was telling me how her current car costs too much.  Well, this morning I woke up to hear her telling me how she wished she didn't have a car because it was too expensive.  I didn't bother to remind her that she was just at the dealership a few weeks ago.

- last night she was supposed to have plans with a friend.  She claimed there was a mixup and that she would be home for dinner after all.  It's not like her to get her schedule screwed up, so its possible this may be a half truth because she didn't want to be away from me for the evening.  But I have no proof of that and it's not even worth pursuing.

- she's been making invalidating comments like "you don't really love me" or "I like to touch you but you don't like to touch me."  That's nothing new, but given her more positive mood lately I am disappointed to hear that still.  It's control, and I try not to think about it too much.

- And the past two days she has been spending hours a day researching rings online.  Uggh.  I'm partly responsible for this because last weekend I was showing her some rings I was looking at, partially in relation to a conversation we had a week prior in relation to the value of a particular kind of stone (I'm an earth scientist, and it all started with a question from her).  So now she is obsessed.  And last afternoon she said after a couple hours of looking she was getting depressed and a headache.  So what did she do this morning?  Same thing.  And an hour later said she was depressed again. 

We have a T appointment next week.  I really need to bring up a few things during the session because it seems she is receptive lately. I'll give her praise for being happier and explain how it makes me feel more stable about things.  But I really need to explain to her that it's okay to dream and plan for the future, but it's not okay to obsess over the future to the point where today's needs aren't met.  And I need to set a boundary here - that I won't discuss certain things with her until today's needs are taken care of.  I think we can reach something on this issue - I've been chipping away at it.  The other day I told her that her calling me and obsessing over money was making it difficult to manage my own life, and that I can't let myself get caught in a pit of worry otherwise I can't take care of myself today.  And she seemed to listen.

[In_n_Out]

Our "girls" sound so similar Max, it's eerie. 

I was in your exact position 2 years ago.  She wanted to get married.  Wanted a kid.  I could do better with a better job*, house shopping.  All the while the back of mind is saying "it's going to be all *me* doing the supporting here... . she brings nothing to the table.  Can't hold a job, she'll have a kid and want to sit home all day with her new toy and we're already struggling to pay bills".

I asterisked... . I do have to give my ex credit.  She said that I have so much more potential or that I'm better than I am/was in my current job so I told her that I would go job hunting.  I pulled up monster.com, did a search in my field, applied to the first listing that came up and said "there, went job hunting".  Strangely, I was called in for an interview that week and hired the week after.  Been with them for almost 3 years and it's a wonderful company and I doubled my salary.  So I'll always owe it to her for the "push" to do better. 

Back to the similarities.  The abortion thing is HUGE with my ex.  She'll bring it up every now and then and will start to dysregulate if I ask her anything at all about it.  So I have no details about it (it was several years ago) but it affects her deeply.  I hadn't thought about what you suggested about having a kid now to replace the one that she aborted.  Eeerie. 

I'll just reiterate that I *know* that mine felt enmeshed and smothered and had lost hope that we'd ever get married let alone have a kid and a "nice" house together and that's when she started planning her great escape.  Almost a year on from that and just last night she's telling me that she's so sorry for all the hurt and pain that she's caused and that she loves me, just me... . but has a weekend planned with my replacement.  Not saying that is your future but, that *could* be your future, ya know? 

Keep fighting the fight. You love this woman and she's with you now.  She's come a long way.  Keep working with her and get really involved with the T sessions.  Make sure she attends and it's my understanding that most CBT/DBT "courses" have a "friends and family" co-meetings for the non's.  You might check in to that.  Oh, and did you grab that book "Loving someone with BPD"?  Really might help with the communication even more.  It definitely helped us communicate better.  Couldn't convince her to do squat about her situation, but we can at least talk about it without getting frustrated with one another and going "silent treatment". 

[maxsterling]

Last night my SIL (also dBPD) came over for dinner. That was interesting.

SIL was here for business, said she would probably be done by 4.  I told her to come over for dinner when she was done.  Well, 4-5:00 rolled around and I had not heard from her.  My GF sent her a text message and had not heard back from her.  So, when I cam home from work, GF said she was feeling "punchy".  Uh oh.  GF said "maybe she hates me now and that's why she isn't responding.  I said "I haven't heard from her either, maybe she is in a meeting and can not talk.  GF then starts to dysregulate.  Paraphrasing the exchange:

her: "I think it is really rude and direspectful for her to not get back to us and let us know when she will be here."

I started on dinner.

"Why are you starting on dinner?  We don't even know if she is coming or whether she will be here?"

Me:  "I have no control over that.  I trust she will be here.  And if she is not, we need to eat anyway."

Her:  "I can't believe this doesn't bother you?  It pisses me off!"

Me:  "Yes, it's frustrating, but I am not going to waste my energy on things I have no control over."

Her: "Your whole family is like this!  I can't live like this!  Everyone else I know would call or text and make specific plans!"

Me:  "That's the way they are, and I can't do anything about it.  Maybe she had a late meeting.  maybe she hasn't checked her phone.  My family are not big cell phone people who respond immediately."

her:  "Yes you can!  You can have clearer boundaries with your family!  I thought you were going to Nar-Anon to help you learn to not let people walk all over you and help you set strong boundaries!  I feel you are making excuses for her!  You arent even validating my feelings!"

Me:  "I already expressed that I found it frustrating.  But I also said there was nothing I can do.  I want to have a relationship with my family, and I don't see where even bringing this up would solve anything.  Am I supposed to tell her I don't want her over if she is not on time?  If I set the boundary, will she change the way she is? I am just going to choose to not let it bother me, because I have no control over what she does."

Her: "I can't live like this!"

About 30 seconds later, SIL sent a text, saying "sorry, this ran longer than I expected, and they won't let us have phones in this place because security is tight. I'm on my way"

I relayed this to my GF.  She calmed, said, "I think I have control issues."  I said, "I don't think it is an issue with control, I just think that you can't process the idea of an indefinite future."

She then left to go to the store.  Still no apology for the way she acted, and that hurts a little, but I expect it.

After dinner the two of them talked.  Two dBPD women who have had hospital stays in the last year.  SIL, though, is high functioning.  She's constantly looking at ways to improve herself and can't sit still.  She's lost 60lbs since going into the hospital, goes to the gym 5 days a week, got a new job, and is helping someone else open a healthy living resort.  Of course I know her track record and know she is exaggerating, and know she will burn out in a few months (but I hope not).  SIL was trying to encourage GF, and GF was not that agitated - a good sign.

At one point, SIL started talking about how she quit taking all of her medication because she wants to live naturally.  Uh oh.  I hope this does not give GF any ideas.  SIL said when she was on antidepressants, she was really super aware of her surroundings and everything irritated her, including the sound of my brother chewing.  GF then said, well that's how I was before antidepressants (she HATED the sound of my chewing).  I chimed in.  "Yes, you were constantly criticizing me, every night until you got on meds."  Finally, I could express that without her raging!

After SIL left, GF asked, "was I really that bad?"  I said "yes".  She then asked, "why didn't you leave me?"   I said, "well, i loved you, and I knew there wasn't something going wrong with you, and I wanted to see that you got help."  The conversation then ended.  I was hoping to finally get the, "wow, i'm sorry.  I didn't realize how much I was hurting you."  But not yet.   

[maxsterling]

My scalp is about bare.

Yes, I'm doing a better job focusing on me.  Yes, I'm doing a better job validating and sticking to the truth and being firm.  Yes, she's calmer, and doesn't rage as much.  But today was one of those ones where I realize once again the true chaotic core of this illness.

She woke up this morning still thinking about my sister in law and things my sister in law said.  Some of what my GF and SIL talked about was marriage.  I really don't need that subject to be brought up, and I think that got my GFs mind going again.  But by this morning, she was questioning whether things my SIL were true or not, and questions about the nature of the relationship my brother and SIL have.  But all in all a rational conversation, even if there may have been ulterior motives by my GF.

Then my GF went out with a friend for two hours.  WHen she came home, she had something to show me, and was very excited!  Uh oh.  Turns out, the friend is getting divorced, and gave GF her wedding and engagement rings to that we could take the stones out of them and put them in our own custom jewelry.  Damnit   And then the obsession started.  I of course tried to act somewhat excited - but bow was that weird.  Even if this was a healthy, stable r/s with a non-BPD person, that's still weird.  I don't even know this woman.  My GF barely knows this woman.  So I said, "what a thoughtful gesture, but I really don't know what to do in this situation.  If feels wierd to me because this woman I do not know and maybe if she was family or a long time friend it would feel different."

GF then responded, "Oh, now I feel like crap, because I don't have a family who would give me something like this.  I shouldn't have accepted this.  Do you think I should have accepted this?  Can I give it back now?  Should we give it back now?  Oh no!  We are supposed to go hiking with her tomorrow, now what do we say?  Is she still going to want to be my friend?"

And like that, she obsessed the rest of the day again.  So, she decided to get on the computer, and yet again LOOK AT RINGS.  And after awhile, sure enough felt depressed and sad again and started crying.  So, I got her away from her computer, suggested we go out for awhile.  She broke down and cried heavily, saying, "I can't believe the things that come out of my mouth I am so stupid! I just can't stop myself!"

We went to the store, she kept talking about how crappy she felt, and how she wanted to do bad things to everyone she saw.  And when an old woman in the store was a little snippy with her, she lost it.  She contained herself enough to go out to sit in the car while I checked out. 

And when we got home - back on the computer.  WTH.  She said to me, "I'm doing bad things again and I can't stop."  This time - researching baby names that begin with J.  !  Not only is she obsessed with having a baby, but is insistent her baby has a name starting with J. 

So last week I was seeing improvements - her telling me she is trying to stop worrying about others.  I guess not today.  Her telling me she feels more accepting of the present time.  I guess not today.  Her controlling her rage.  I guess not today. 

Maybe I am just a little frustrated right now, but I've flipped again from being positive and optimistic, to wondering if she is actually getting worse. 

Couples T is this week.  She's pretty comfortable with this T, and I am feeling more comfortable and confident - so I really need to make this session work for me.  Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.  I need to be firm about the effect these wild future projections of hers are having on me and my health, and that I will no longer participate until she takes care of today's needs.   

[empathic]

Last night my SIL (also dBPD) came over for dinner. That was interesting.

... .

Just wanted to say that I thought you did really well in this conversation. I've been through similar situations, but I tend to shut down fairly quickly when my wife starts talking negatively about my family.

I believe my wifes late grandmother might also have had BPD. I recall one episode when we were staying at her place, and she expected to have some more relatives over for dinner. They called and said they'd be late and her response was "then you have no business coming here at all!". They showed up after all, and then things were like nothing had happened.

[maxsterling]

Laying in bed this morning I realized that even though there have not been the screaming rages, the disregulation is still happening, at about the same frequency - once a week to once every other week.  The meds have probably kept things shorter and less intense, but the same mechanism is there.  I just haven't noticed it until this weekend.

And once again, I have gone from, "I feel like I can work on things with her and should post on the staying board" to "this could end this week and i need to prepare for it."

The disregulation regarding marriage (if you know BPD, it really isn't about marraige) never stopped.  Sunday, we went hiking with her friends (had a great time, I thought!).  But on the way home, GF was obsessing over that ring again.  She suggested that I take the ring to a jeweler "just to see" how much it would cost to have the stones reset into custom jewelry.  I said that's a good idea, but I can't do that today or anytime soon, because I have too many other things to focus on.  (Of course, that was mostly me trying to hint "YOU have a bunch of other things to take care of - focus on the present and not the future".  To that she replied, "great, I guess you really aren't interested.  You aren't interested in marriage, you aren't interested in me... . "  I responded, "It hurts to hear you say that, I'm simply stating that there are other things that need my attention in the short term."

And with that, the conversation was dropped.  Or so I thought.

Later in the day after lunch, I was working on things outside, and she was inside on the sofa.  She claimed she was  "bored".  She was watching tv, and then on the computer looking up accessories for guinea pigs.  I periodically would come inside, kiss her, smile at her, and she would ask what I was doing or if I was done.  By 4pm, I could tell something was troubling her.  I sat on the sofa next to her, and she said, "i was looking at rings again, and now I am depressed."

Good lord.  Every time she looks at rings she gets depressed.  So why look at rings?  And the disregulation was now full blown.  Same things came out of her mouth - that's I'm leading her on, that I don't care, that she feels like she is running in circles, that she is in great pain over this and I don't care (blaming me for her emotions), that she doesn't even care about rings anymore, that even if I did propose to her, she would feel like it was only because she pressured me, that she now doesn't want to get married at all... .

Eventually, she got up and laid in bed and asked me to close the door to the bedroom.  I went outside and finished my tasks, feeling hurt, confused, and upset.  After an hour, she got up and joined me outside.  She said "I can't live with this pain anymore, I think I am going to have to end things.  Maybe I should get my own apartment."

I was quiet.  On the tip of my tongue was, "I think that may be a good idea," but for some reason I just wasn't ready to go there.  But we talked.  First with her disregulating a bit more, now claiming our new therapist always takes my side and supports me on everything (uggh - this again).  She mentioned how she feels like I am just dangling a carrot in front of her, how she feels like a fool, how she feels shame.  And I stopped her there, and asked her to elaborate on why she felt shame.  And that got the conversation moving towards what were probably truer emotions, that her current mood more had to do with her and her than with me.  And things got a little more productive after that.  By bed time, it was "I want things to be good with us again, can they be good again?

I'd like to be able to have rational discussions with her regarding these issues, but it's just not possible.  

I guess the only logical option is - realize this will never work and break up. No matter how much I improve my skills, I can't change her emotions, and a breakup is inevitable.  I would prefer to have a second option - that I get to a point of greater acceptance and she work on herself so that we can have something functional and stable, even if it is dynamically stable.  But I can't get to that point if she won't get to that point.  She feels unstable, and it has apparently come to the point of thinking of leaving, and I can't change that, yet I can't live with that for the same reasons she can't live with that.  I can't feel stable unless she shows a commitment to herself, and she can't feel stable unless she *feels* that  i am showing a commitment to her.  But the way she is now, no matter WHAT I do or show her, she won't feel that.

[NickM]

Max,

I really want to challenge you, because I care and see a lot of my behaviour in your words.

She has given you opportunities to 'complain' by saying things like ":)o you think I threw tantrums" and "Those women stomp their feet" etc... . it sounds like in those cases you 'soothed' her. I use to do the same things. My exBPD would never give me a minute to myself and then she would ask ":)oes it bother you we spend so much time together?". Knowing an honest answer would ensure chaos and wanting her to feel safe, secure and to maintain the slight bit of positive energy and momentum in the relationship meant I backed away from my true feelings.

You may not see it yet but this is confusing both of you. She's almost asking you to tell her you are suffering due to her behaviour. You are so unwilling to upset her by speaking the real truth about how she makes you feel that in the end your feeling towards her becomes increasingly frustrated.

So here is my challenge. Start saying what needs to be said. If she acts out, go take a walk. Don't feel ashamed to be the one to ignore someone who is unwilling to discuss rationally. Don't apologise for saying what needed to be said so long as you did it without malice or spite.

I see this as win-win, if you want to remain in the relationship, her slight awareness will now be related to your honest feedback about how it makes you feel. She may find it a bit shocking and I am sure you will find it challenging to allow the chaos rather than soothe her. If however you do want to end the relationship, she should be better equipped to understand exactly why you are leaving and shouldn't resent you for not giving her an opportunity to change.

My exBPD finds it insufferable that I didn't tell her often enough that things that troubled me, troubled me. I would avoid the truth if I felt it would bring about her rage and fury or play on her insecurity. In a way, I think of this now as positive manipulation. Although our intention is good, it's still dishonest.

Next time she throws you a line like ":)o you I think I would have thrown tantrums as a child?" (example only... take any/many opportunities) be brave and face up to it... . tell her what you really need to say:

"Yes, although it isn't uncommon for some children to throw tantrums to get their needs met, most children are educated away from this behaviour well before they reach adulthood. I still see that sometimes you throw tantrums or rage/cold shoulder to ensure your needs are met, it sounds like you also identified with this in your behaviour, is there anything you need from me to help you to change that behaviour?"

You'll feel awesome for about 1-2 seconds for being more honest with yourself. Breathe. Then whichever way she chooses to respond, take note. Don't soothe. Simply move yourself away from the conversation if she is being unpleasant. If she continues to rage that you are ignoring/walking away then explain that her aggressive response has pushed you away, you can discuss the matter again when she is ready to talk calmly with you.

My wish in challenging you is that one day you won't feel like you failed the relationship by not putting everything on the table.

You sound like a really decent guy, really hope to hear how it is going.

[maxsterling]

Nick - that is great advice, and the same thoughts have crossed my mind recently.  She wants me to say that I am hurt, or tell her how to change, or that she irritates me.  And I need to do that better, because at the end of the day, if I don't she will use my apparent complacency against me.  If she knows I am irritated (even if I really am not that irritated), maybe she will quit expecting things to happen so quickly.  Or, like you said, that at least that gives me peace of mind, and should this r/s fail I will have at least given her the chance to know why it failed.

As I have thought about this, here is what stops me:

- telling her that certain behaviors are not acceptable to me feels like parenting, a role that makes me feel uncomfortable as that makes me feel that her moods and actions and emotions are my responsibility.  I like your response about the tantrums - that's a good approach that throws it back on her and avoids the feeling in me that I am parenting her about not having tantrums. I really need to get over this issue, because either way I am going to have to start being more upfront with her if I am ever to escape my own brain.  It may give her things to work on and she will back off on future projections, or it may leave her agitated and angry - and either way I have no control over that.  But at least it may help to get things "unstuck".

- the very first time in this relationship where I told her that certain behaviors of hers were bothering me ended really ugly, and I think I have trauma associated with that.  Basically, what happened is that I told her that her constant negative attitude was difficult for me to live with.  I didn't know about BPD at the time, and had I known I may have phrased it differently.  But the end result was her screaming at me and insulting me for an hour, her trying to open the car door to exit while I was driving, her saying she wanted to kill herself, punching and throwing things, her scratching at her arm until it bled (she still has a scar a year later), me worried about her out of control behavior, fearing for my and her safety and calling a crisis line who directed me to the police, the police coming over, her screaming at the police, the police advising me to leave my own home because there was nothing they could legally do, and then me packing a bag to leave and her telling me she would kill herself in my living room if I left and that it would be my fault.  Rationally, I know I am not the cause of any of that.  But emotionally, it's just hard to let go of.  When things get heated, my heart races as I fear that situation repeating.  So if she were to ask, "Am I too negative?" I fear that if I don't answer correctly, I could be dealing with a life or death situation again.   I'm slowly working on that, and slowly learning how to respond in ways that don't cause escalation, but it's just so hard to fight that natural fear sometimes.

[NickM]

Wow Max,

All my sympathy is with you.

I don't believe she'll expect things to happen any less quickly. If she is similar to my ex, the ring is more just another symbol of your utmost devotion. She's jealous that others have them and not her.

Given how extreme her reactions can be, I guess you have to try and select moments which have the least risk for personal injury. If that's how extreme her behavior still is, then you are navigating a field of landmines covered in eggshells. If she really is so unwilling to listen to you and you are afraid to speak up... . It's like a mute person shouting at a deaf person. You can't say what needs to be said and she won't listen regardless.

I think you know the most about how to deal with this and have much more experience in dealing and coping with this. I just wanted to highlight your avoidance for saying what you need to say as I could really relate to this. I didn't fully understand or appreciate your challenges associated with that.

As for the parenting comment, I totally get that. In previous r/s I have left because it felt like I had become a father rather than a partner. I suppose a father is more likely to offer unconditional support, no doubt we have both been guilty of that. I think love and support needs to be conditional, it needs to have well defined boundaries and consequences. I honestly don't know how you go about achieving this. Again, you have my deepest sympathy and respect.

Best wishes!

[In_n_Out]

If or when I spoke my mind about my feelings or why I did things, my ex would always turn it around on to me in typical BPD fashion. 

"I thought that you said that you wanted grow and figure things out so that's why I (didn't call/didn't text/slept with you replacement/etc)".  Um, yeah... . I said that I was trying to figure all of this out and was hoping that we would grow together in our r/s... .

The other example if from my thread... . my ex is at an event with my replacement.  I just happen to show up at the same event with a date.  She says that she's at said event and having a good time (crawfish... . yummmm).  I mention that we're at the same event! (as in shock-horror!) but *she's* hurt that I mentioned that to her.

The brilliance of their child like minds.  Rubber Soul (I *finally* figured out what the Beatles meant)- you say one thing to them and it bounces back on to you and sticks in your craw because what came out of your mouth comes back totally twisted and deformed.  Or as Jim Morrison said, "Ghosts crowd the young child's fragile eggshell mind."

[maxsterling]

So here I am spending the day just emotionally and mentally locked up from the weekend.  I'm trying to stay focused on other things, but today I'm just mush and can't tell if I am upside down or right side up.  

I'd been looking forward to this weeks couples T session, as I figured this would be a good time to work on things with her in a "safe' place, and build on the progress I felt after last session.  Now, this weekend's events have me re-thinking everything.  I think I forgot to mention that during yesterday's deregulation, she made the claim that the T is always taking my side and must hate her.  Crud.  Well, after 3-4 sessions with the first T, that's what she concluded, so we found this new one.  My feeling is that if she thinks the T is not being objective or is against her, then no more progress will be made.  

I did plenty of reading on here today, and thinking, and listening to advice.  And I thought about how I should approach things with her, how I should discuss with her what is hurting me, and how we can solve some of these issues.  I was starting to get my mind settled - and then -

Text messages began about how she thinks she has ruined her guinea pig, how she is now afraid of her guinea pig, how she thinks the guinea pig is depressed, how she ruins everything she touches, how she should never have children.  Just some real hopeless/feeling worthless language.  And I have to say I felt quite heartbroken.  I did my best to re-assure her, reminded her that her caring heart makes a difference, and that most people would not even consider the happiness of their pets.  But she sounds REALLY down today - no suicide talk, but it's the same type of mood I remember from just before she went into the hospital.  Probably not the best time to talk about what is hurting me.

[NickM]

In'n'out,

Firstly, love the Doors and Beatles references. You need to listen to "I gave you all" by Mumford and sons. Extract of lyrics below:

Rip the earth in two with your mind

And seal the urge which ensues with brass wires

I never meant you any harm

But your tears feel warm as they fall on my forearms

But close my eyes for a while

And force from the world a patient smile

And how can you say that your truth is better than ours?

Shoulder to shoulder, now brother, we carry no arms

And the blind man sleeps in the doorway his home

If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy I could have won

But I gave you all

I gave you all

I gave you all

Close my eyes for a while

And force from the world a patient smile

But I gave you all

I gave you all

I gave you all

And you rip it from my hands

And you swear it's all gone

And you rip out all I had

Just to say that you've won

And you rip it from my hands

And you swear it's all gone

And you rip out all I had

Just to say that you've won, you've won

Well, now you've won





Now, back to your post. Do I understand you showed up at the same event as your ex, both with new partners/dates and you had communication with her about the event?

Why are you reluctant to go NC?

You are correct that the BPD, or at least in our shared experiences, will use our words against us. This is irrational in its very nature. Trying to make sense of their response will only hurt and frustrate us. Having read a lot of material from the BPD perspective, it seems they listen-react-ponder-react-see their fault- react. If we bite on those reaction cycles the process stops. I feel it is our right to disengage from our BPD partner if their reaction is to do anything other than listen with the intent to understand. Maybe a more qualified member can share on this topic?


My advice to Max is to say what needs to be said, calmly and with empathy and to remove himself from the conversation if her response is anything but cooperative or demonstrates a willingness to take responsibility and agree on what is required to maintain the boundary.

In_n_out, curious to learn where you are at with your detachment? It's something we all seem to experience in different ways, none of it being easy.

[NickM]

So here I am spending the day just emotionally and mentally locked up from the weekend.  I'm trying to stay focused on other things, but today I'm just mush and can't tell if I am upside down or right side up.  

I'd been looking forward to this weeks couples T session, as I figured this would be a good time to work on things with her in a "safe' place, and build on the progress I felt after last session.  Now, this weekend's events have me re-thinking everything.  I think I forgot to mention that during yesterday's deregulation, she made the claim that the T is always taking my side and must hate her.  Crud.  Well, after 3-4 sessions with the first T, that's what she concluded, so we found this new one.  My feeling is that if she thinks the T is not being objective or is against her, then no more progress will be made.  

I did plenty of reading on here today, and thinking, and listening to advice.  And I thought about how I should approach things with her, how I should discuss with her what is hurting me, and how we can solve some of these issues.  I was starting to get my mind settled - and then -

Text messages began about how she thinks she has ruined her guinea pig, how she is now afraid of her guinea pig, how she thinks the guinea pig is depressed, how she ruins everything she touches, how she should never have children.  Just some real hopeless/feeling worthless language.  And I have to say I felt quite heartbroken.  I did my best to re-assure her, reminded her that her caring heart makes a difference, and that most people would not even consider the happiness of their pets.  But she sounds REALLY down today - no suicide talk, but it's the same type of mood I remember from just before she went into the hospital.  Probably not the best time to talk about what is hurting me.

Max, objectively speaking... . Sounds like she recognizes the distance and you moving away and is using her communication to draw you in again. I'm not suggesting this isn't difficult and seeing someone hate on themselves doesn't deserve our empathy but please ask yourself this:

Did you harm her Hamster?

Did you tell her she wasn't caring for her Hamster?

Are you responsible for her preference to think negatively and perceive the world darkly?

Is she really benefitting from therapy if she's unwilling to take responsibility (rather than feeling he is taking sides)?

It sounds like you are still trying to do the impossible. What a great guy. Don't beat yourself up. From what you describe it sounds like you're doing more than all you can just to try and keep a sense of normality and optimism for her. That's her responsibility. She'll never feel truly happy or sustain optimism if you are providing it, it needs to come from within.

Stay strong Max! I'm late for work but my thoughts are with you. Focus on what matters, your needs. See her communication for what it is, she doesn't have to know you know... . Maybe just as long as today you don't internalize her pain for her.

[In_n_Out]

Hi Nick,

Not wanting to hijack Max's thread, my post is the "R/S advice, BPD style" (continued):  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=222715.0

You can go back a few pages if you dare want to start from the beginning.

Mine and Max's situations are very similar... . but that's no real surprise given the circumstances.

I will be updating mine as soon as I post this.

Max, my brother... . you know that I know exactly where you're at and my pain is your pain.  At least you're not in some triangulation like I am.  Pray it never gets to that!  Good for your girl for going to therapy at least.  I've seen others post that their pwBPD's feel that the T is against them and taking the side of the other.  Mine had 2 sessions with a counselor (?) and she commented the other day that she doesn't think that she's going to get anything out of it so I'm sure she won't go back.  I guess the question goes back to what I asked the other day and what is your personal threshold for what and how much you will tolerate and if/will that threshold get exceeded.  And if it does, then what?  I know that very thought preoccupies your mind continuously and that my friend is a HUGE strain on your energy levels.  So be good to yourself; keep getting the exercise and keep the mind as clear as you can.  Help your girl as long as she will help herself but if she stops listening or caring, there's only so much you can for her my friend before you totally lose yourself.  Peace!