Therapist Reports and Court

[Nope]

Kids uBPD mom was supposed to start at least taking SS9 to therapy over a year ago. Right now I'm glad she never did until a couple of months ago because I can't imagine the level of damage this T could do given enough time. I'm not just talking about damage to our case either.

The T, after only meeting with SS9 with BPD mom present three times has decided that SS9 has a form of ODD. I about lost my mind when my S.O. told me this. The poor kid does nothing but freeze up and cry silently at the slightest correction from an adult! He's terrified of his mom. He's also the sweetest kid in the world and probably far too much of a cuddler for his age. He comes to both his father and me every ten minutes for a hug when we have him. (Unfortunately, we only see the kids a few times a year because they are three states away and BPD mom works real hard to obstruct parenting time and contact.) He is the all bad child and it appears that BPD mom has found herself a negative advocate who will also tell SS9 that he is the problem.   :'(

As for SD11, her T was apparently told that she has no problems at all by BPD mom and is a perfectly happy kid. There were two sessions of SD11 saying she is just fine and BPD mom saying that the only reason she brought SD11 is because my S.O. was trying to make a case a case for custody because he's trying to take her children away from her when she hasn't done anything wrong. So, without so much as ever saying one word to my S.O., SD11's therapist decided that therapy was unnecessary and she will not be seeing SD11 anymore. 

Both T's are filling out paperwork for the GAL who thankfully has seen right through BPD mom. But obviously nothing either of them will say is going to help our case for getting the kids out of there. I am baffled by their willingness to take everything BPD mom says as gospel without asking my S.O. any questions or even speaking to the kids one on one. I wasn't expecting them to conduct a full-scale investigation (like the GAL is doing) but a little due diligence would have been nice.

[livednlearned]

Ugh. How frustrating.

I can't get over how many bad therapists there are out there. My son did a psyche/educational assessment that cost $1500. It involved surveys with four teachers, two long surveys with me and N/BPDx, and six hours of S12 being tested as he performed different tests on a computer. The survey that N/BPDx and I filled out had 500 questions! The teachers had a slightly shorter test.

What I learned from that process is that the tests have to be done by someone who not only knows how to run the tests, but by someone who really understands how to analyze them. I was fortunate to have a really good therapist who ran the tests. A lot of the questions on the tests had to do with peer interactions.

The results said that S12 was ADD/ADHD combined type, and he also presented for depression and ODD. I understood the ADD and depression, but the ODD was baffling. My son is very conflict avoidant, and nothing about him is defiant. His passivity was actually something that worried me.

The therapist said the ODD results can be very easily misinterpreted, and tends to show up with ADD and depression. She felt that it was more likely that S12 was struggling in certain contexts and that led him to shut down, which could be perceived as defiance.

I can't imagine diagnosing a kid after three, or even six sessions, with something as complex as ODD, especially given how likely it appears with other things. And to diagnose him when his mom was present? There are much more credible ways of assessing, and hopefully you can discredit the therapist's report.

[Nope]

"My son is very conflict avoidant, and nothing about him is defiant. His passivity was actually something that worried me."

Yes! That is exactly what I'm feeling with SS9! He just shuts down and starts silently crying whenever he feels attacked. There is absolutely nothing defiant about any of his behavior. But since BPD mom views everything he does as a personal attack that is how she represented it to the T.

[livednlearned]

"My son is very conflict avoidant, and nothing about him is defiant. His passivity was actually something that worried me."

Yes! That is exactly what I'm feeling with SS9! He just shuts down and starts silently crying whenever he feels attacked. There is absolutely nothing defiant about any of his behavior. But since BPD mom views everything he does as a personal attack that is how she represented it to the T.

ODD is actually a very strange disorder when you look closely at it. Only dx'd in childhood, and often comorbid with ADD/ADHD and depression. For the T to focus on ODD without ruling out other issues makes the therapist sound incompetent.

[Nope]

According to the T she came up with this based on what his mom has told her. According to BPD mom he is defiant of her authority, cruel, throws tantrums, and is violent toward his sisters.

DF and I have never once experienced any of that kind of behavior from him. He is always terrified he will be yelled at for the slightest thing and he berates himself whenever he does something wrong. I think because he is the "all bad" child his mom sees him as defiant and threatening in her warped reality. If he has ever said anything back to her at all I am sure it was in self defence because he is fully aware that he isn't treated the same way as his siblings.

The fact that the T came to any conclusions at all while never having seen SS9 without his mother present is disturbing and makes me think think she is more interested in making BPD mom feel like she is right then in helping SS9.

[ForeverDad]

When I first separated, I had a TPO from my ex based on her threats (eventually dismissed by the court since court considered her threats not 'imminent' and so she had to look for negative advocates to make me look worse than her.  She went to a local county children's therapy quasi-agency and listed me as suspected child {youknowwhat}.  Since she had temp custody and majority time she was able to keep it all hidden from me.  Though I had the usual father's alternate weekends, I was treated very coldly, it was clear the agency wanted nothing to do with me for more than a year.  Ex used temp custody, HIPAA claims and anything else she could think of to sabotage me.  Sometimes it was just plain silence and noncompliance.

My ex used HIPAA as a way to block my access to my son's child therapy records, in all, for over a year.  We had separated when son was three years old and for the first 3 months I didn't even know about it until an insurance recertification letter arrived in my mail.  At first she claimed I was a suspected child abuser and that worked well, the agency studiously gave me the cold shoulder for nearly a year - until court eventually had some evaluations in hand.  At that point ex's strategy changed and claimed she feared endangerment because of her many comments to our child's therapist and agency.  ANd of course the agency stonewalled me with this new wrinkle.  By then I had already approached the court twice during hearing on other divorce issues, first the court assured me that in the temp order I had statutory rights to access my son's records, the second time the court got my ex to agree to sign papers with the agencies granting access.  Of course she never did.  So the third time I made a specific motion to get access to son's records.  Court made my lawyer research HIPAA law and rules.  Finally we had a hearing and the magistrate signed the motion as an order.  I picked up some 200 pages of records within two days.  My lawyer had told me it would be mostly blacked out, but it wasn't.  I didn't see my initial letters to the agency, not sure why they weren't kept.  Of course, the agency was silent about apologies, they weren't going to expose themselves to further litigation.

Several months later when my ex raged at the pediatrician's staff and got herself 'fired' (letter to her as temp custodial parent stated they were "withdrawing services" but I was never notified.  And ex didn't notify me either, of course.  When I called the pediatricians a week or two later they refused to talk to me, referring me to their lawyer.  The lawyer also stated they couldn't talk to me, but obliquely asked whether I wanted to request son's records?  Of course I asked for his records.  No charge, too, staff was silent but very helpful.  Yes, my ex, remembering her prior success with this delay tactic, had claimed HIPAA issues.

[Nope]

She took them to a reputable place that has been responding to DF per the rules of the parenting plan. That's how we know as much as we do. However, they've only answered any questions he has asked and have not asked him any questions. BPD mom has them already seeing him as an invasive squeeky wheel who is looking for excuses to take the children. He already feels pretty disregarded in the process despite the fact that their custody is technically 50/50 in all respects. She is just the residential parent. Unfortunately, with him living three states away, the residential parent wields a whole lot of extra power.

Unfortunately we are now afraid that these two therapists, who have only been seeing the kids since March, are going to get to weigh in on whether or not they stay with their "victim" mother. We have no idea how much weight their thoughts will have.

[trappeddad]

how do you rat out a biased therapist?    my kid's therapist takes every word by BPD ex says as gospel.     i have proof her claims are untrue, but that may piss off the therapist more.     and the therapist holds onto my childs records too after promising them for 5 months.    this system really is not right

[livednlearned]

She took them to a reputable place that has been responding to DF per the rules of the parenting plan. That's how we know as much as we do. However, they've only answered any questions he has asked and have not asked him any questions. BPD mom has them already seeing him as an invasive squeeky wheel who is looking for excuses to take the children. He already feels pretty disregarded in the process despite the fact that their custody is technically 50/50 in all respects. She is just the residential parent. Unfortunately, with him living three states away, the residential parent wields a whole lot of extra power.

Unfortunately we are now afraid that these two therapists, who have only been seeing the kids since March, are going to get to weigh in on whether or not they stay with their "victim" mother. We have no idea how much weight their thoughts will have.

In court, can you express the concerns you raised here? That the T did not do a psych-ed eval to rule out other comorbid issues like depression, anxiety, and ADD, and that the dx seems to be based on information provided by the mother. That you would like input from the school and an evaluation instrument to get a sense of whether this is just an issue between child and mother, or whether child is ODD in other environments. Unfortunately, psych-ed evals are not cheap, although my insurance covered about 75%. I think I ended up paying $1200 or so.

Also, the ODD dx, let's say it was correct, does present with these other issues -- depression, anxiety. That could tell the court that your SS is experiencing high levels of stress and conflict in the home environment.

[Matt]

Can you file a motion to have a Custody Evaluator appointed?  A Ph.D. psychologist, appointed by the court, who can administer objective psych evals like the MMPI-2 to both parents, and spend alone time with both kids, and write a report recommending what custody arrangement would be best?

That's what I did and it was a good process.  The CE diagnosed my wife, and recommended psychotherapy for her, which became part of the court order.  He recommended 50/50 custody, but also wrote that over time it might shift toward more time with me (for one of my kids) which is exactly what has happened, and it has worked out well.

[ForeverDad]

What might be an option for you is what happened in my case.  My ex had taken our son to a quasi-county agency for child therapy, Head Start and more.  I did feel he was developing too slowly, but everyone said he was "bright but unable to concentrate and always distracted and distracting others".  That what every teacher said, from kindergarten when I got equal time to third grade.  So I sent paperwork from the third grade teacher for an evaluation.  Strangely enough, right about that time when I was seeking custody his behaviors started improving, right about when he turned 9 years old.  That agency ran a psych evaluation with about 4 tests.  I made sure I was there for them, I recall because my ex and I were both in the lobby and she tried to ask like she was disturbed with me 'looking' at her.  Results:  Normal but anxiety.

That was 2009.  In 2012-13 my ex insisted he was having hallucinations and yet the local children's hospital, after a few interviews with him, you guessed it, assessed him with anxiety likely due to family discord.  Her lawyer in a last ditch effort just before the late 2013 hearing tried to file for a delay so he could get (another) psychological evaluation.

He's a reasonably normal kid, just affected by the family discord.  Yes, I know, the professionals often don't like to point the finger at a specific parent.

[livednlearned]

He's a reasonably normal kid, just affected by the family discord.  Yes, I know, the professionals often don't like to point the finger at a specific parent.

For good reason, don't you think? A lot of the behaviors our kids experience are definitely made worse by having a BPD parent. No question about that. But it's rare that the non-BPD parent isn't without some big issues, whether it's depression, anxiety, or having BPD somewhere in the family system. I can see how my son is affected by my anxiety, plus I come from a narcissistic/codependent family with a long lineage of alcoholism. Pretty dysfunctional.

I know what you're saying, FD. Not trying to say that our issues are as traumatizing as BPD issues on kids, just to say that from a professional's perspective, they probably know there is a dysfunctional dynamic, and that makes it hard to tease out what's going on for the kid. Not just who is causing the trauma, but who is able to stabilize things for the child.

[Nope]

I know what you're saying, FD. Not trying to say that our issues are as traumatizing as BPD issues on kids, just to say that from a professional's perspective, they probably know there is a dysfunctional dynamic, and that makes it hard to tease out what's going on for the kid. Not just who is causing the trauma, but who is able to stabilize things for the child.

Normally, I might agree. But when we only see the kids eight weeks a year (total) and DF is only allowed to speak to them once a week then it has to be pretty clear who can't be the problem.

My hope is that once she starts meeting with SS9 alone she'll realize that he is absolutely nothing like the way he is being described by his mother. Normally we might fight to get some testing done, but our final court date for custody is in June and with all her documented lying to DF, the GAL and the court, plus all the evidence of neglect, plus all of the other evidence of bad decisions that have had a negative impact on the kids, we think we have a pretty good shot. Even if she can get both Ts to testify on her behalf. They may just end up going in there after only having met with SD11 twice and only having seen SS9 for three months at that point and making themselves look stupid.

One thing is clear, if we get custody both kids are going to need good Ts here. I just hope that by then SS9 doesn't feel so picked on by a bad T that he won't open up.

[Matt]

He's a reasonably normal kid, just affected by the family discord.  Yes, I know, the professionals often don't like to point the finger at a specific parent.

For good reason, don't you think? A lot of the behaviors our kids experience are definitely made worse by having a BPD parent. No question about that. But it's rare that the non-BPD parent isn't without some big issues, whether it's depression, anxiety, or having BPD somewhere in the family system. I can see how my son is affected by my anxiety, plus I come from a narcissistic/codependent family with a long lineage of alcoholism. Pretty dysfunctional.

I know what you're saying, FD. Not trying to say that our issues are as traumatizing as BPD issues on kids, just to say that from a professional's perspective, they probably know there is a dysfunctional dynamic, and that makes it hard to tease out what's going on for the kid. Not just who is causing the trauma, but who is able to stabilize things for the child.

Let me give a different perspective on this... .

Suppose one parent has BPD, and in many cases, some other stuff too.  (About half of BPD sufferers have some other psychological problem as well.)  And she is not getting the treatment she needs to recover and put the destructive behaviors behind her.

And suppose the other parent has some issues too, but not a psychological disorder.  Some co-dependence, for example - very common among those of us who married someone with BPD.

If the parents stay together, most of us have found, it's chaos.  Nobody can live a healthy life.  The non-BPD parent can learn better ways to deal with the BPD parent, but it just reduces the damage a little - the dysfunctional behavior will continue unless the person with BPD gets the right kind of help and stays with it for several years.  Your life is hell, and the kids grow up in a dysfunctional home and are affected by it.  (My two stepkids grew up like that.  One started drinking at 12, later other drugs, now in prison - never free and sober for more than a few months from 12 to 35.  The other is doing better, but has some issues too.)

If they split, and the child spends most of her time with the BPD parent, the child will be at much higher risk - based on tons of research - over the years - much higher risk for depression, suicide, substance abuse, etc.

On the other hand, if the child spends most of her time with the non-BPD parent, things will probably go better.  The non-BPD parent is more likely to get help, and more likely to recover once there is some distance from the parent with BPD.  Most of us have, for example, some degree of co-dependency, but that doesn't have the same risks for the child that living with a person with BPD does.  (My younger two kids live mostly with me, but see their BPD mom regularly, and they're doing very well.)

So the professionals' job, in a case like this, should not be to make any assumptions, like "Well if one parent has problems, the other probably does too, so what's the difference?".  The professionals should be using objective means, like the MMPI-2, to determine exactly what problems both parents have, and to determine which outcome of the case will be best for the child.

How do we get this to happen?  I think the answer is, we need to file the right motion(s).

If we file a motion, for example, for a therapist, GAL or whatever, to be appointed for the child, that may be a good move, but it is not likely to result in both parents being diagnosed.

If we go out and get a therapist for ourselves, that's almost for sure a good idea, but again, it won't lead to both parents being diagnosed.

The only move I know of, which results in both parents being objectively diagnosed, is a motion asking the court to appoint a Ph.D. psychologist as Custody Evaluator, with instructions to administer objective psych evals to both parents, and to make a recommendation to the court according to those results, along with other inputs like spending time with the child and both parents.  I filed a motion like that - I made the mistake of not specifying objective psych evals, but I got lucky - the psychologist did that anyway - and it worked.

The legal options may be different in different places.  I'm not an attorney and I don't know how things work everywhere.  But I would suggest finding out how to ask the court to appoint someone with the right credentials and instructions to get both parents' psychological health issues out in the open, so they can be taken into account.  Then follow up with research to show how both parents' diagnoses are likely to affect the kids.  Make sure the court takes into account the risks associated with a child being raised by someone who has BPD (if that is the other parent's diagnosis).

We need to listen to some of the assumptions that are often made in these cases, and ask ourselves, "Is that assumption true in this case?", and if it's not, challenge it with evidence and research.  "If one parent has problems then they probably both do, so what's the difference?" is an assumption, not a fact, so it should be challenged, or it might keep the court from getting the information needed to make the right ruling.

[livednlearned]

I know what you're saying, FD. Not trying to say that our issues are as traumatizing as BPD issues on kids, just to say that from a professional's perspective, they probably know there is a dysfunctional dynamic, and that makes it hard to tease out what's going on for the kid. Not just who is causing the trauma, but who is able to stabilize things for the child.

Normally, I might agree. But when we only see the kids eight weeks a year (total) and DF is only allowed to speak to them once a week then it has to be pretty clear who can't be the problem.

My hope is that once she starts meeting with SS9 alone she'll realize that he is absolutely nothing like the way he is being described by his mother. Normally we might fight to get some testing done, but our final court date for custody is in June and with all her documented lying to DF, the GAL and the court, plus all the evidence of neglect, plus all of the other evidence of bad decisions that have had a negative impact on the kids, we think we have a pretty good shot. Even if she can get both Ts to testify on her behalf. They may just end up going in there after only having met with SD11 twice and only having seen SS9 for three months at that point and making themselves look stupid.

One thing is clear, if we get custody both kids are going to need good Ts here. I just hope that by then SS9 doesn't feel so picked on by a bad T that he won't open up.

Yes, I just re-read what I wrote and realized I didn't say it well. Matt said it better:

We need to listen to some of the assumptions that are often made in these cases, and ask ourselves, "Is that assumption true in this case?", and if it's not, challenge it with evidence and research.  "If one parent has problems then they probably both do, so what's the difference?" is an assumption, not a fact, so it should be challenged, or it might keep the court from getting the information needed to make the right ruling.

Professionals definitely work on assumptions that the kids' behavior is caused by both parents, (Bill Eddy mentions this assumption in Splitting) and a lot of courts think both parties are too messed up to do the right thing, which leads to high conflict and bad outcomes for kids. They have a hard time figuring out which parent is messed up (because a lot of nons display depression, anxiety, etc., often made worse by a BPD marriage), and which parent is able to stabilize the kids.

Nope, just like you said, it is different in your case, because the kids see very little of their dad. For most of us, professionals aren't going to see it quite so clear until we document it or provide a psych eval.

Thinking about the ODD dx -- there is also a chance that the judge might think, "SS9 is ODD with mom, his dad's influence might be good for him." So if you say, "Your honor, SS9's therapist suggests he is ODD. This is based only on three sessions in which mother was describing the behavior. We respectfully request the court to order an objective psych eval -- SS9's father has never witnessed any oppositional or defiant behavior and finds the evaluation to lack appropriate rigor in light of a request for substantial change in custody. SS9 is easy to be with, agreeable, and is grateful for structure when he is with us."