As the legal process closes and your marriage crumbles and ends-your perspective

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

As we all go down this path... .

1.  The pain, frustration and anger we all have felt during the marriage is real and has struck the core of our soul.

2.  Now that your marriage is ending what is your perspective on your role in it all?

          It takes two to make a marriage live and it takes two to make it die

          Yes, it is easy at being angry at our spouse versus being angry at the disorder and the cause

               Your spouse in reality... . did not ask for this disorder... . any more than one would ask for cancer

3.  The emotional, financial and other forms of devastation we all have experienced are real


Bottom line... . do you really know your role in all of this?

Looking in the mirror is not easy of the images you see of idealization, fixer, self-esteem, etc.


Do you really know your role and have you stopped the... . "How could I... . ?" and "Why did I... . ?" and forgiven yourself so you can heal and move on?


NewWays

[NewWays]

As we all go down this path... .

1.  The pain, frustration and anger we all have felt during the marriage is real and has struck the core of our soul.

2.  Now that your marriage is ending what is your perspective on your role in it all?

          It takes two to make a marriage live and it takes two to make it die

          Yes, it is easy at being angry at our spouse versus being angry at the disorder and the cause

               Your spouse in reality... . did not ask for this disorder... . any more than one would ask for cancer

3.  The emotional, financial and other forms of devastation we all have experienced are real


Bottom line... . do you really know your role in all of this?

Looking in the mirror is not easy of the images you see of idealization, fixer, self-esteem, etc.


Do you really know your role and have you stopped the... . "How could I... . ?" and "Why did I... . ?" and forgiven yourself so you can heal and move on?


NewWays

[ForeverDad]

It takes two to make a marriage live and it takes two to make it die

Yes on the first part and no on the second part.  All it takes is one sabotaging or obstructing for it to be unhealthy and dysfunctional.  The relationship may not be dead strictly speaking but it's essentially the walking, staggering dead.

I dealt with it this way.  While I acknowledge I had made some errors in judgment and handling, partly due to ignornace and partly due to my own issues - no one is perfect after all - I had no guarantee or even reasonable assurance that any better action/reaction on my part would have made a significant difference.  So I 'accepted' the outcome.  I also saw that there was no benefit to feel guilted since my ex would have used that to blame me even more.  Should I have done more or differently, could I have done more or differently?  There aren't any good and simple answers to questions of that type, I could have been stuck spinning my wheels for years so my solution was what many have done, to leave it all in God's hands ("Let Go and Let God" so you can Move On.

"Cast thy burden upon Jehovah, and he will sustain thee" - Psalm 55:22, American Standard Version, compare Matthew 11:28-30.

[SamsungUser86]

I am dealing but not well. This craziness of ending our marriage has brought to the surface my own problems of deep-seeded codependency. I tried to take care of her throughout the entire relationship to my own detriment. I completely ignored my own needs... . just as long as she was okay. I allowed myself to be abused mentally, manipulated, and just dragged down... . however, I know that I played a part in the disfunction. All the while I was placating her and trying to control her to make up for my extremely low self esteem and sense of loss of control in my own life. My controling was in the guise of helping... . but it was only manipulating. I realize now through this divorce that this problem goes back many years to childhood and I am going to try my hardest to create a better relationship with myself so that I can be truly happy and never get mixed up with someone like that again.

The only thing keeping me kind of going right now is reminding myself that I am not responsible for what she does anymore. I try to remind myself that I can only take care of myself right now and that is all I should be worrying about because i've been through too much the last 5 years, but I am going to try really hard to learn from it. I think that is key. I need to learn from this on multiple levels so I can not get myself into a situation like this anymore.

[suffering_parent]

I feel like I enabled some of the behaviors by not having good enough boundaries.   My friends and family would tell me to get a spine.   By the time things got really out of control we had kids.   If she didn't get her way she ran off with our kids.    That threat and reality kept my hands tied.   I finally put an end to it and have full custody of my kids.   I take no blame for her insanity.   My biggest blames are making such a poor life choice by marrying her and then not getting the kids away from her sooner.   If someone would have got her away from her abusive mother maybe she wouldn't have this disorder.   In the end the failed marriage is almost all her fault.   I don't care if it is caused by a mental disorder, that is not our fault.   Here is another scripture and is oh so true.

The truly wise woman builds up her house, But the foolish one tears it down with her own hands.  - prov 14:1.

[Ihope2]

I also have a big codependency issue and this has not been the first dysfunctional love relationship that I have been in.

I have previously attracted a Narcissist (my own diagnosis!) and I also spent 5 years in a relationship with a very delusional man, not sure if he was also  a person with BPD (he didn't have the huge abandonment fears, nor the self-harm, SI, or the splitting and raging though). Perhaps he was schizophrenic?  He was definitely not well and lived on the fringes of society, barely able to make ends meet, etc.  He also became heavily financially reliant on me, and I recall that he was very possessive, moody, sulky and jealously suspicious.

So, I have up to now unwittingly attracted very damaged men into my life and tried to conduct love relationships with people who are too damaged to function in a healthy, balanced relationship.

I think I have deep abandonment vs engulfment issues, which subconsciously make me attract men who are unable to be emotionally present for me.  I attract self-absorbed men who use and abuse me, but have nothing to give me. Hence, I don't feel engulfed by them (due to the lack of emotional intimacy), and also I don't feel abandoned by them, as they become to dependent on me to leave me!

I have a low self-esteem when it comes to feeling worthy and lovable as a person in my own right, without having to "pay" for love and attention.  Literally "pay" for it, as I choose destitute and financially poor men who have to rely on me for money.

I thought until recently that my codependency stems from the emotional neglect from my mother, and the emotional abuse from my narcissist stepfather, but now I realise that it also stems from the total absence of my biological father as a loving and nurturing father.  I am a woman who has been handicapped in relating to men, as I have never had a nurturing and warm relationship with a loving father.

I have subconsciously been hiding behind my rescuer role, in order to focus on someone else's pain and avoid having to deal with my own.

All of this is what I am now finally taking ownership of and facing up to.  This is the part I played in the dysfunctional relationships I have been in!

The sad reality is that the men I went into relationships with, were too damaged to the core themselves and were never a healthy prospect for me, or any other woman,to have a relationship with them.    And this most recent relationship of mine, strange how it was the most dysfunctional one of them all, and the duration of my past relationships has been 5 years; then 2 years; and now this one (my only marriage)has not even lasted a full year... .

Maybe I am really finally waking up to all that ails me and what I need to do to heal myself from the inside.

[Matt]

My ex's mother died when she was a baby, and her father drank a lot and didn't know how to be a good parent.  My ex and her sisters were sent to live with relatives of another race, in another state, and they were never told why.  To this day, she doesn't know what caused her mother's death, or why that has been a secret for all these years.

BPD is associated with feelings of abandonment in childhood, so it's not surprising that my ex has BPD.  Most BPD sufferers don't want treatment - she was diagnosed and the court ordered her to get psychotherapy, but she has never accepted that she has a problem and needs help.

I had never heard of BPD when I started to date her.  I had known her for years, and we had the same friends, so it should have been a low-risk relationship.  But I didn't really know her, and neither did her friends, because BPD doesn't always show itself outside of intimate relationships.  One of her previous boyfriends - a friend of mine - told me, "Watch out.", but he wasn't more specific so I didn't listen.

She told me she was taking care of birth control, but she lied, and she got pregnant, knowing I would marry her, and I did.  Then she did it again - we agreed not to have another baby yet, but she lied again and got pregnant again, knowing I'm a sucker for babies.  So we had two kids, plus her two older kids who I love as my own.  (Then I finally got a clue and took responsibility for birth control myself.  Ouch!)

She didn't ask to have BPD, and she probably still doesn't understand how it happened and what it means.  She just knows she's not happy.  And I had to learn that nothing I could do would ever change that - I could never make her happy.

She accused me of cheating on her, which I never did.  She threatened divorce.  She became violent.  Finally, after 10 years of marriage, she accused me of assaulting her - if the officers had believed her story they could have charged me with attempted murder.  We were both charged, and spent the night in jail, and it was in jail that I finally realized the marriage wasn't working.  (Duh.)

If I had known more about how to deal with her - what our members learn on the "Staying" board here - I could have done a much better job while we were together.  But I don't believe the marriage could have been good, no matter what I did, because she has a serious psychological disorder and is not willing to get the help she needs.  You can't have a good relationship with someone who has BPD and isn't getting treatment.  Maybe the marriage could have lasted a little longer, or could have been a little better, but I'm not sure that would have been better.

When it ended, things got better for me and the kids.  I got 50/50 custody - the best a dad can usually do in my state - and that morphed into more like 75/25 over the years, because I wanted the kids more, and their mom wanted to save face but didn't really enjoy having them too much, and they did better with me.  They still see her regularly and say they love her, and I expect that will always be the case.

I reject the idea that bad marriages are always both parties' "fault" equally.  Of course none of us are perfect, and there are things I wish I could go back and change.  My view is, I'm 100% responsible for my own actions, but I'm not responsible for someone else's choices.  I can understand that she has a deep problem, and that it goes back to childhood, and that she didn't choose to have BPD (and other psych disorders - like about half of all people with BPD, she has some other disorders too).  I can sympathize and accept all that, but it doesn't mean I am responsible for what she did, or that I could have made the marriage work, or that I didn't do the best I knew how at the time.  So yes, I forgive myself for mistakes I made.

Most of us who choose to be with someone who acts like my wife does - even though we don't see it clearly at first - we probably have some co-dependence and/or other problems.  I benefited a lot from counseling for several years.  It's surely wise to spend some time understanding yourself and working on those areas.

Allow some time to work through it, and get some professional help to do that, so you can make good choices and things will work out for you going forward.

[NewWays]

Matt... . and all... .

Matt... . your comment really got me to thinking.  "I had never heard of BPD when I started to date her"

How would any of us every know?  How many of us had any clue what BPD was and after we found out, how long did it really take us to understand the reality of what it means to our spouse... . and the real impact it had on us?

Does having the ability to set good boundaries, not having traits of being a fixer or pleaser, not having self-esteem issues automatically create a shield of awarness that would make you automatically move away from someone who was disordered and exhibited BPD traits?

How did each of you feel, when you realized that your spouse had BPD traits and you understood the reality of what you had been through and what was most likely in the road ahead of you?

The first few years when I finally realized what was going on is when my wife had stopped taking her meds that she told me were to help her panic attacks and that at their worst would lay her out on the floor in the fetal position shaking in an uncontrolled state.  The other BPD behaviors then began to spill out of her, raging, splitting, and then the relationships that had been important to her... . her mother, her brother, her sister, her Aunt all became the worst people walking on this earth.

The threats she starting making caused me to visit a therapist and when the therapist asked me to sit down in a chair in front of her and listen after I told her about her meds and behaviors and she began by announcing what she was about to tell me was going to be as painful as when I was fold my Father had cancer and had only months to live.  She told me the entire BPD story and I could not beleive what I was hearing!

Looking back, how could you of been aware with the knowledge and insight of BPD to be aware and at least not be impacted by the early manipulation that many of us allowed to happen?

Did all of you have a good understanding of BPD and the impact it was going to have on you, your spouse and children at the very beginning of your relationship or marriage?

Your thoughts and comments?


NewWays

[Aussie JJ]

I am just starting but at the moment I'm starting to see the role I have played. 

My problems I think have been amplified by the ex... .   a big part of me has ignored these problems and some of the books I've been reading have highlighted to me how I contributed to the train wreck that has been the last 4 years. 

I have no explanation for how or even why I allowed myself to be a door mat to an extent.  I'm dealing with shame of allowing myself to be subjected to a lot of the abuse.  She dealt it I accepted it.  Ultimatelly I cant sugar coat that.  Anger over now knowing that it never had a chance and I cant help this person.  I cant explain why I feel this way about her and still care now that I have an understanding of the abuse. 

I think codependency is an issue for me.  I don't know how I would have changed it in the past without the strategies I'm learning now.  I can also see with mirroring that I have, don't understand it picked up some of her bad traits, when I have had my values stampled on I haven't replaced them with good or bad ones but nothing. 

Re-learning these is powerful for me.  Revisiting the experiences over the years and the eroding of my self esteem has been frightening.   

This has allowed me to take a bit of control back and start directing the circus or started to give me some control back over my role in the circus. 

The thing that I am having the most trouble with now isn't her being sick.  She didn't ask for a mental illness, its not being able to influence it. 

In so many ways, I don't think their is one person here who if it was in their power, in their capacity wouldn't take the fight on.  Stand their side by side with these BPD people and put every ounce of effort into helping them help themselves given the chance early enough in the relationship.  I actually take comfort from that empathy that I have now, that compassion is something that has never been taken from me.  I know that every dillusion about abandonment and the fluctuations between black and white thinking only apply in her head and that is one area I cant do battle in. 

I also know that this is a fantasy,  there is nothing I can do to assist someone who doesn't want help.  My initial denial of this is probably matched by her denial of the problem.   

I wish I took note of the article I had earlier so I could link it but one author said that these people, BPD's leave relationships in a trail of blood and compleatly sucking the life from their partners and scattering it randomly around for everyone to see.  This in the end not the relationship is what gives them comfort when they are distancing themselves. 

It is harsh but for a lot of people here true. 

[NewWays]

All... .

How did you learn the behaviors your spouse was exhibiting were BPD traits and was it this

Discovery lead you to divorce?

Learn through... .

Your reading and research?

Your marriage therapist?

Your individual therapist?

Your personal physician?

Your family and friends?

Who initiated the divorce?


NewWays

[toomanytears]

All... .

How did you learn the behaviors your spouse was exhibiting were BPD traits and was it this

Discovery lead you to divorce?

Learn through... .

Your reading and research?

Your marriage therapist?

Your individual therapist?

Your personal physician?

Your family and friends?

Who initiated the divorce?


NewWays

Hi NewWays

After an inexplicable outburst several years ago from my h I was so shocked and disturbed that I started to google and came across BPD. It was a lightbulb moment. I've tried over the years to employ validation and all the other techniques but I ended up behaving like a total doormat. He finally left last year and filed for divorce a few months later. I since found out that he'd been having an affair - I now assume there have been several in our 31 year marriage. I'm still in limbo - waiting to hear if he's submitted the application to court. Now that I've rumbled him and the wizard of oz has been exposed I think he's frozen ... . everything has gone quiet... . will I ever get out?

[Aussie JJ]

I found out when I didn't understand and got the silent treatment.  I had become a doormat and when she refused to answer / interact and blamed me for everything along with creating lies.  I caught her out in a massive lie and finally reached out to friends and family.  

When they told me I wasn't imagining this a few wrote letters for my psycologist and a family member and friend attended and gave their observations to him.  From that he stopped me, asked a few Q's and then appologised to me saying I never had a chance.  He went through some behaviours and examples that I hadn't told him about and he knew exatelly what was occuring.  He then told me about BPD and some of the things I would have experienced.  

For me I think I always knew but chose to deny it.  That is a fault I have, now through research and education im also seeing how I contributed / facilitated her behaviours.  

I couldn't tell you the light bulb moment but catching her in that lie, that is what forced me to reach out and get more help.  That enabled me to stop carrying all of the blame.  Initially this wasnt helpful as it gave me an excuse to blame her and not recognise my own part.  

If you read some of my previous posts I'm concerned about helping her and not myself.  Looking at fixing her and not the problems I have developed in this relationship or that have been amplified due to this relationship.  I think its a constant process of education that im going to be learning alot for a fair while to come and learning more about myself and how I reacted,  why that occured.  

[NewWays]

toomanytears, Aussie 33 and all... .

How do you view your divorce and resolve the facts that a BPD spouse because of his/her disorder, most always puts in front of the non-BPD spouse?

1.  Like a very serious disease like cancer, your spouse did not ask for the disorder just like a person who has developed cancer did not ask for it.

2.  If your spouse devleoped cancer, you would do everything in your power to try and provide the best medical treatment and your caring and love to try and beat the disease.  As for BPD, most of us tried to "make it better" in the best way we know how.  We tried to be patient, validate our spouse and not attack, avoid any behavior that would be sure to be a trigger for our spouse BPD behaviors and had the loving tenacity to "hang in" to try and repair after the  rages and sometimes physical violence because you did not want to give up, even with all the pain and chaos.

3.  Now that as we divorce, many of us have learned even more about BPD, questions that we never really thought about early on as the BPD began developing and showing signs in our spouse.  Early on in most marriages as BPD began to arise I think most of did not think or did not have the knowledge to look in the mirror and reflect and ask ourselves about things like if we had very clear boundaries, if we were guarding to make sure we were not being a fixer or rescuer... . or that we were sure we did not have self-doubt about our sense of self and any possible self-esteem issues, to name a few.

4.  Now that we are divorced or close to it, do most of you feel that your dealings and relationship interactions with your spouse and their BPD during your marriage served to help to try and move forward and helped to improve spouse behaviors and your marriage... . or... . do you feel your perspective leaned more to be angry at your spouse and behaved based upon that assessment, rather than the much different perspective of your marriage, spouse and feeling of being angry at the disorder and the cause and terrible impct it has had and not at your spouse and their behaviors.

With a terrible disease, like cancer, we all seem to understand what we need to do to offer the greatest chance for success and helping our spouse beat such an ugly disease.

With BPD, as the non-BPD spouse, how were we supposed to try and do all that we could do and were supposed to do, when we had no understanding of what the disease was and tried our best to do what we thought was best, but in reality may have been in a way... . enabling the continued failure of our marriage?

I would really like to understand what thoughts any of you had as you traveled this path and your situation.

     1.  If this/these thoughts have ever entered your mind?

     2... When you take a step back, how do you honestly and objectively explain what really happened?

NewWays

[Matt]

This is a thought process many of us go through.  The "cancer" analogy is a common one, and a good one to help us think through these issues... .

My ex did not choose to have BPD.  She did not choose to go through what happened when she was a child.

She's an intelligent person who can see what is going on now.  She has gotten ideas and advice from a lot of people who want to help her, and she has access to professional help.

She has chosen not to change.  Changing would be hard and probably painful.  It's not fair that she has these bad choices - go through a difficult process of change, or stay unhappy and unable to have good relationships.  Most of us don't have to make that difficult choice, and I wish she didn't either.

But this is the situation she is in, and she has made her choice:  to stay the way she is.  That is her right, just as it is my right to decide how to deal with that reality.

The cancer patient also didn't choose to be where she is.  (Of course maybe she smoked or did something else that put her at higher risk, but let's set that aside.)  She also has a difficult choice:  unpleasant treatment or getting sicker.  It's not fair that she has to make that choice, but that is the reality.  And if you are close to someone with cancer, you have to choose how to deal with her choice - to continue to support her or to step away.  And there may be cases in which the right choice is to step away.

Here's another analogy:  Someone who commits a serious crime.

Usually, people who commit crimes have some sort of problem - addiction or some other mental health problem.  Usually they came from less-than-ideal homes.  Not their fault.

As a society, we can sympathize and offer help, but we also provide consequences.  If you commit a crime, you'll probably go to jail, and maybe somewhere along the way you can find help, like rehab or mental health services, but those aren't a substitute for penalties.  We can't survive as a society if we don't protect ourselves from crime;  I wish we did a better job of nipping it in the bud but when a serious crime happens we can't ignore it.

Similarly, we can be sympathetic toward those who have BPD or another problem, and we can offer help.  But if they choose not to accept help, we are not obligated to remain at risk.  Maybe marriage vows require us to do our best to save the marriage, and if there are kids I think we should try our best to provide a good two-parent home if we can.  But if it becomes clear that it's not possible to have a stable two-parent home, without too much chaos, and that it would be better for the kids (and ourselves) to establish a quiet, safe home without the person with BPD, that may be the right thing to do.

That was my decision - not an easy one and not one I made quickly.  My belief had been that divorce was not an option, at least til the kids were grown.  But how far could that go?  For me, it was violence and false accusations that convinced me something had to change... .

[livednlearned]

I grew up in a dysfunctional home, so dysfunction looked pretty normal to me. It's hard to recognize red flags when you grew up in a field full of them.

That's my role in the dynamic. I prefer "role in the dynamic" to "whose fault it was." Because let's be honest, in the court of public opinion, some of these BPD behaviors are off the charts. You show me someone who can manage my ex and I'll pay your legal fees.    Also, in my experience, I spent a decade taking all the blame, and that didn't work out so well. Didn't help me heal, didn't make me stronger, didn't fix the marriage.  

I preferred to think: What is it about my patterns, my beliefs, my values, my needs, my fears, my issues that created this dynamic in my life? Why have many of my relationships been with similar kinds of men? What is it about my childhood that made abuse seem normal, and why on earth did I ever think I could fix, rescue, or control someone else? What is healthy intimacy, and why have I had a hard time creating it? What is it about my pain that is so difficult to experience that I had to find someone else in greater pain to distract me?

Also, a side note: the analogy between cancer and BPD doesn't make sense to me. If my spouse had cancer, refused to acknowledge it, didn't change his behaviors, didn't get treatment, and tried to traumatize everyone else around him as a way to cope with the disease, then maybe it would be analogous. The people with cancer I know never threatened me, or bullied me, or threw things at me, or locked me out of the house, or blamed me for their disease. They didn't endanger me, and that's a big difference.

As I take a step back now, what I realize is this: it is very hard to feel genuine, deep, soul-crushing pain. I have compassion for anyone who is afraid to feel the Big Pain, including BPD sufferers, because facing that pain is truly frightening. Feeling my suffering meant confronting the genuine fear that I was nothing, meant nothing, had nothing to offer, and didn't make a difference. Unlovable, unwanted, not worthy. And maybe not even real, as in this "self" I constructed and so desperately cling to might not be "real." Frightening to think you're just a bunch of habits of mind and behaviors, and underneath that -- nothing.

But feeling that pain and surviving it was worth it. I am lovable, I am wanted, I am worthy. I am. No one fixed me, or rescued me to get there -- if they tried, it wouldn't have worked. I wasn't ready. Some people are never ready, and that's ok. I can have compassion for them, and feel sad that they are in pain, but I am worthy enough to draw a boundary. I know that going into that vortex won't make things better for them, and will most certainly make things worse for me.

I'm not afraid anymore, not like I used to be.

I wish I could let go of the sadness -- I still have a bunch I'm dragging around because I have some unresolved grief with my family of origin. I'm working on it, still have a ways to go.

[NewWays]

Matt and livednlearned... .

As always, your insight and wisdom makes me examine and think to look at my path from the very wise perspectives you both offer.

So, thank you sharing your POV... . it really helps.

The pain that our BPD spouses would have had to face and take the long tough journey to recocery from the disorder seems to be one of the most devstating things a BPD person has to face.

The readings from Marsha M. Linehan have helped me gain a better perspective on the real pain BPD disordered people feel, especially about something that seems as simple to a non-BPD as reaching out for therapy and help.  Again, we cannot make them want, to want to make themselves better... . that has to come from them as you both point out.

livednlearned... . the FOO dysfunctional piece I now better understand... . what impact that had on my wife with, a Father that was a regular user of IV illegal drugs, could not hold a job, was drunk half the time... . and may have exposed my wife at a young age to his friends that may have sexually abused her.  Add to that fractured, black only relationships with her mother and also drug addict brother... . shows me what hell her FOO was for her.  I am sorry for that and now know what chaos that caused, but, again, getting the help you need for those FOO issues will not cut it with denial.  She would never take therapy seriously.

My therapist helped me understand this with this equation... .

Love = Home

Home = Chaos, drugs, parent being drung, parent that was not emotionally available, etc.

Love = Chaos

As you outlined, the FOO dysfunction is a major element that we all need to be aware of and better understand... . and... . that those FOO experiences need real care in healing, help and recovery.

Again, thank you to both of you for your comments, wisdom and input.


NewWays

[Aussie JJ]

I am not as far along the path as some here, im still finding new facts out and educating myself.  

The biggest issue I am trying to understand is my part in the relationship and how I allowed myself to be so manipulated.  I think I fit the rescuer stereotype and always have had that element in my personality where I have placed other people ahead of myself and been willing to give my time freely to help.  

The thing I've noticed about my interactions with my ex.  At the end I was shutting down and giving her nothing emotionally.  I stopped being the person I have always been in that sense.   I would work more, help other people.  Everyone else apart from myself and my relationship with her.  I didn't understand, I still don't fully if I'm honest the complete problem isn't a simple its all her fault.  I knew something was wrong but didn't know what or who to ask as I was so isolated from everyone.  

I don't think I can change any of her faults, I believe she is aware of them and chooses to ignore the problem.  That and the fact that she wanted me to change and fix my 'problems' without acknowledging any of hers is something I'm finding very painful.  I have to say I contributed a lot by letting go of myself in many ways to try and please and satisfy her needs while ignoring all of mine.  

With the FOO stuff, I can see how my mother was very controling/dominating in the dynamic in the household.  My father worked full time and mother part time.  When we were young though she took time off work to care for me and my brother, she ran the house.  I can see I went and earnt the money while my ex took the time off work when our son was born but she never ran the house or contributed to the house.  

Sounds like a contradiction but I did all the housework as well, cooked most of the time.  Their was no division of labour where we both looked after and cared for each other.  I had an expectation that I would work through it and it would be ok, she had an expectation that I would do everything and all the faults were mine to fix.  

I'm actually less financially stressed paying child support through the roof now and the full mortgage (that I always paid).  I don't have her expectations and impulses destroying my plans.  Financially I'm stable again and emotionally I'm working through what has transpired.   Working on my happiness.  

A long way from resolving the problems of the past but starting to make sure I dont repeat them again personally.  

[toomanytears]

toomanytears, Aussie 33 and all... .

How do you view your divorce and resolve the facts that a BPD spouse because of his/her disorder, most always puts in front of the non-BPD spouse?

1.  Like a very serious disease like cancer, your spouse did not ask for the disorder just like a person who has developed cancer did not ask for it.

2.  If your spouse devleoped cancer, you would do everything in your power to try and provide the best medical treatment and your caring and love to try and beat the disease.  As for BPD, most of us tried to "make it better" in the best way we know how.  We tried to be patient, validate our spouse and not attack, avoid any behavior that would be sure to be a trigger for our spouse BPD behaviors and had the loving tenacity to "hang in" to try and repair after the  rages and sometimes physical violence because you did not want to give up, even with all the pain and chaos.

3.  Now that as we divorce, many of us have learned even more about BPD, questions that we never really thought about early on as the BPD began developing and showing signs in our spouse.  Early on in most marriages as BPD began to arise I think most of did not think or did not have the knowledge to look in the mirror and reflect and ask ourselves about things like if we had very clear boundaries, if we were guarding to make sure we were not being a fixer or rescuer... . or that we were sure we did not have self-doubt about our sense of self and any possible self-esteem issues, to name a few.

4.  Now that we are divorced or close to it, do most of you feel that your dealings and relationship interactions with your spouse and their BPD during your marriage served to help to try and move forward and helped to improve spouse behaviors and your marriage... . or... . do you feel your perspective leaned more to be angry at your spouse and behaved based upon that assessment, rather than the much different perspective of your marriage, spouse and feeling of being angry at the disorder and the cause and terrible impct it has had and not at your spouse and their behaviors.

With a terrible disease, like cancer, we all seem to understand what we need to do to offer the greatest chance for success and helping our spouse beat such an ugly disease.

With BPD, as the non-BPD spouse, how were we supposed to try and do all that we could do and were supposed to do, when we had no understanding of what the disease was and tried our best to do what we thought was best, but in reality may have been in a way... . enabling the continued failure of our marriage?

I would really like to understand what thoughts any of you had as you traveled this path and your situation.

     1.  If this/these thoughts have ever entered your mind?

     2... When you take a step back, how do you honestly and objectively explain what really happened?

NewWays

Hi NewWays

This is what happened to me. There's no way of knowing what might have been.

My BPDh appeared to have alot in common with me so I was able to ignore the obvious red flags. He shared a flat with a mutual friend. He had been to the same Oxford college as my dad and brother. He worked in Tanzania - where I was born. He looked like me. I was completely smitten. I'd had lots of boyfriends but I had finally found my soulmate. He was THE ONE. He swept me off my feet with romantic gestures and promises and wanted to get married asap. My poor parents were not happy (I later found out - they did not show it) but went along for my sake. We were married within 3 months of meeting - classic BPD. I had to buy my own wedding ring because he had some excuse or another no to. To this day he has only ever bought me one ring - last year - by which time he was already planning his getaway. I gave it to my daughter. Now I just wonder what it was all for. The only answer is for me to focus on what I got out of it - at times an exciting, interesting life, lots of good friends and two beautiful children.

[NewWays]

LivednLearned... .

I understand your point regarding the sadness you feel and the FOO issues

That you examine and try to understand.

Let me ask you... . when you were/are forced to deal with your ex and the

BPD behaviors that were common place (raging, blaming, violence Etc)

Does that type of current interchange with your ex remind you of back

then... . when many things were off track (like healthy boundaries)

and does that make you again ask yourself "how could I" or

"why did I" that makes you shake your head in frustration and disbelief

And feel that sadness for your FOO issues that you continue to deal

with heal from and grow as you move on?

Last week I had a "how could I" "why did I" moment when after my

wife dragging the divorce out for over a year, called me to try her

Old phone rage-you are worthless behavior because the court asked

Her for monthly statement documentation for an IRA account balance

she feels Is all hers because she said so!

As the raging volcanic lava came out of the phone with familiar

"What is wrong with you" "why are you begin stupid again... . and

are having your attorney be even more stupid than you ... . by not

Accepting my statement that this account is non marital and as a

result shows me you still have no clue or brains to really know what

is really going on!"

I shook my head... . looked at my cell phone and heard my self talk

say "how did you allow that behavior in the past... . why did you

allow... . " Then thought about those FOO issues that I continue to

to work on and felt that sadness you spoke of... from my past.

How do you move past these walks from the past after you are divorced

but due to children-having to sell the house still deal with

such behavior from the past when dealing with your ex?

NewWays

[livednlearned]

How do you move past these walks from the past after you are divorced but due to children-having to sell the house still deal with such behavior from the past when dealing with your ex?

What happens when you hear the self talk? What do you feel?

It is quite terrifying to realize that the role you played as a child, and the role you continued to play as an adult, is just that -- a role. A very convincing, very important, very believable and quite clever role, but still a role. What was terrifying for me was this momentum (mostly unconscious) to end the role. My character was saying, "If you kill me off, if you don't believe any of this is true, then you will die. Without me, you are nothing. Literally." But it's a lie. There is a self at the seat of my being who is worthwhile and lovable. Yours too.

Unfortunately, to get to this place, I found I had to stay put in the feelings and let things play out. There was no moving past them. And the thing that brought me the greatest grief, and that finally broke it all open? Letting someone I love help me. That really killed off the character I was playing -- it went against script. I was so boxed in with bad options and so broken down by the burden of all this suffering that I finally got it, that I couldn't do it alone. I needed help. And there was someone there who loved me enough who, with no strings attached, helped me pull through. Because she loved me. And I finally got it. I'm worth it.

When all this was happening, I thought I was having a nervous breakdown. I even went to see a psychiatrist because I stopped being able to function. Not so bad I needed to be hospitalized, but enough that I was concerned. The psychiatrist I saw is old-school. He meets with his patients for an hour, so not just a pill guy. And when I told him what had happened, he said it wasn't a break down, it was a break through. That I had created the conditions where it was finally ok to lay this character to rest. I didn't need to play that part anymore. But I was stuck in this deep grief for a while, and he said mourning the loss of this role was like mourning the death of a real person. This LnL character got me through childhood, helped me survive my FOO. She did such a good job that it made sense to let her lead the way through life. But the role wasn't needed anymore, and giving it up was like a death, complete with mourning.

It was painful to realize I am responsible for myself. More painful than anything N/BPDx ever did to me. That's why I can have compassion for N/BPDx being in pain even while I know I need to steer clear of him. I know what he is afraid of. His chaotic, raging self helped him survive, and no way is he going to let that self be annihilated. Even if it creates nothing but suffering for him, even if it destroys everything in his life, he's playing this role and riding it out to the end.

[NewWays]

livednlearned... .

Your very wise and from "your sole" posts to my topic make me realize how much more work I have to do.

Your insight and what you have learned from your FOO, your BPD spouse, the BPD Marriage Pain, your open and honest comments on your therapy and your healing and growth as you move on... .

... . is amazing but gives me a "to do" list that seems like it is almost impossible to do.  I have a lot of work still to do.  The fact that I read and see that you could do it... . has helped me re-calibrate and keep my sails into the wind helping me to move on.

Thanks for having the courage and be willing to share both the pain and hope/light of your experience with your BPD spouse and your personal journey and path as you try to find your way back.  It helps me more than you will ever know.

You and your other team members of the bpdfamily are the best!

NewWays

[livednlearned]

Your insight and what you have learned from your FOO, your BPD spouse, the BPD Marriage Pain, your open and honest comments on your therapy and your healing and growth as you move on... .

... . is amazing but gives me a "to do" list that seems like it is almost impossible to do.  I have a lot of work still to do.  The fact that I read and see that you could do it... . has helped me re-calibrate and keep my sails into the wind helping me to move on.

It's lifelong work... . some days are better than others, some moments are better. Being present in the moment, knowing that you are not your thoughts, is hard work! I read about this gap, a small space, between the moment and your reaction. So pausing, slowing down, that helped me find that gap. Then I learned, by being in that gap, that I had choices. It is still hard to make the choice to do a instead of b, but at least I know now that there is a choice. I am not the role I'm playing, I'm here in this moment. All the b choices are coping ones, trying to distract myself from the moment. The a choices I'm still learning -- breathing, going outside and being in nature, being present with others, feeling the water on my hands when I wash them, paying attention to right now.

Once you start this, you'll start to see signs of it everywhere. Even here. Then in poetry, songs, books. Things and people will come into your life and you'll notice breadcrumbs, you just have to notice them, and be curious. Believe that you are wanted, and worthy, and that you're enough. The weird thing is that loving yourself can be very painful at first, so don't let pain dissuade you from moving forward. It's part of the work.