What is best for our kids?

[Overseas1899]

I would love to leave this nightmare. However we have 2 tweens and I want to know other's opinions re whether to stay and buffer my uBPDh behaviour as well as try to be an example as to how to handle it as obviously they will have to learn coping skills. Or leave so the kids have a calm home to come to for some of the time. I also enjoy being a mom and helping w homework, sports and don't want to give up 50% time w them but am torn as to what is best for my kids rather than what is best for me. Opinions please. 

[Perez]

Overseas1899,

For me, protecting and forming the kids is paramount.  I don't feel I can do that adequately with 50% custody (Best case since I am a man). 

I have changed a lot in that I don't take the emotional abuse I did before.  This sets a better example for the kids.  There is the downside that our relationship problems are now more visible to the kids because my wife has ruptured communication because of my refusal to listen to any more abuse, gaslighting, etc.

Setting this boundary has made the marriage more tolerable for me in many ways which gives me strength and energy to put more into my relationship with the kids.  I really love the extra time I have with them, instead of all the time spent on my wife's black hole.

Not to say it is not difficult to stay married, just worth it for the kid's sake.

[gary seven]

Overseas1899,

For me, protecting and forming the kids is paramount... .

I really love the extra time I have with them, instead of all the time spent on my wife's black hole.

Not to say it is not difficult to stay married, just worth it for the kid's sake.

Perez brings good thoughts on the subject.  I think you also need to consider the childrens' ages and how much has transpired (the black hole is awesome analogy).

My kids are young, and they are all affected.  Interestingly it is my boys more than my daughter (who has been systematically hoarded away from interacting with me by my wife) who are affected and seeing a T.  One is very emotional, the other is very aggressive.  They are both bright, and I feel they are both frustrated by what is going on.

So I do not want them exposed much longer.  I have a few major hurdles (major professional examination, a house that had huge water damage LAST YEAR, and a transfer in my company to another store ((no moving involved))  ) to get through.  My kids are finally making local friends.  I need them to grow and become wonderful and I am thinking more and more that it needs to be without her.

Overseas, you are a warm, kind, and loving Mom.  Put on your own oxygen ask first and then for those who are close to you.  I vote for you to choose calm.  Trust your instincts.  And keep exploring the boards.

[stockholmama]

This is one of the toughest questions we face as parents. The kids get older, but the problems don't actually get better. Sometimes they can get worse as the teenage years arrive and the kids are in a mood to rebel, assert their independence and often change their school habits too. Good grades suddenly begin to plummet, teens are backtalking, bedroom doors stay closed for the entire afternoon and evening, family meals become tense and more terse... . and who gets the blame for all of this ? why, YOU do of course! (who else's fault could it be, if not to blame the one who spends the most quality time with the kids.)

Some kids learn the fine art of manipulation from a BPD parent very early, and begin to use this to their advantage to get things they want from them at times when it suits them. This can drive a wedge between you and your kids, and make you look like the "bad guy" every time when all you're trying to do is, you know, just be a parent !  Our BPD decided to take D on a long trip, and in the middle of the school year. It just happend to be a really bad week to miss school, and the grades went south, and never recovered. But of course BPD cannot be blamed for this. This is the responsibility of the student - making sure your work gets done while you are out. However BPD never ensured this would happen during their trip, and just let it go. And confronting them about it after the fact isn't going to repair the situation.

I'm not saying that it's good to stay, or bad to stay... . I think you have to make a judgement on a case by case basis. The kids do see when they get older, with a more jaundiced eye, when their parents are fighting or not talking. Just remember though that you'll get blamed for everything. 

[Overseas1899]

Thank you all for your replies. It is a difficult decision for sure and there are pros and cons either way. 

[Forestaken]

My kids were tweens when My uBPD+dOCDxw really went off, the abuse was emotional, verbal, finanical and physical.  Both kids (separately on separate occasions) told me to divorce their mom.  I waited, and it took an event to push me to leave: "She hit her younger sister (both were middle age)"

From then I decided to end the chaos and violence.  From my experience, the sooner the better.  A BPD r/s is like an infected wound.  You have to take care of it and not hope for the best.

[passivewife]

Leave!  The sooner the better.  I wish I had done it years ago,  instead I have two boys that have an undesired/ strained/confusing relationship with their father. There is verbal abuse almost on a daily basis with my oldest; chronic yelling, belittling, name calling, making him feel worthless.  Random outbursts about minor things.  Moments later he changes the subject and wants to talk calmly like nothing happened.  Its gone on so long that the boys try to avoid him at all costs not to provolk a reason to yell.  My oldest wants to move out and my youngest avoids him like the plague... .   Not a very happy household.  Atleast if I would have left years ago to raise them on my own, we would not have had much - but they could have been raised in a happy, calm envorironment with self worth and peace - and that is priceless... .

[gary seven]

My oldest wants to move out and my youngest avoids him like the plague... .   Not a very happy household.  Atleast if I would have left years ago to raise them on my own, we would not have had much - but they could have been raised in a happy, calm envorironment with self worth and peace - and that is priceless... .

PW:  I  am living the same life... .

My oldest S10 tried to drive my car in an attempt to run away from home after a horrible thanksgiving vacation, where the last two days were all about "mommy screaming again," and then a 6 hour car ride home with her in full form.  It was the next day , as she argued again that he picked up the keys and ran out of the house.  He couldn't figure how to open the car, so he ran down our long driveway (I have this habit of buying house with long driveways) screaming how he wants to run away from her and the family.  I go out after him and get him to calm down with a PB and J sandwich , eating "lunch" in the middle of the front yard.  Then out she comes, storming, saying to me, "We have things to discuss you need to come inside now."  I laid down the line there and told her she needed to observe a 30 day moratorium without screaming.  It was my first boundary to set.  It was in the middle of marriage counseling, which I promptly stopped.  She couldn't see it.

Fast forward two months ago, she demands we clean up the S7's room.  If he refuses, we will throw out all his toys on the floor.  He's been horribly affected by all of this (been suspended twice this year at school) , and she tells me to get a trash bag.  He bolts out of the room.  After I few minutes, while she is still raging about the mess, I kinda think how he didn't come back.  So I bolt through the house, checking every room and every closet.  Not to be found.  Find his brother and sister, no they haven't seen him... . then a real panic sets in because we live 5 houses up from a river... .

I bolt out of the house, ran down and didn't find him... . I run back, have her call the police and I get in the car and drive around the neighborhood... . see a neighbor... . he saw a kid walking down the other road... . and I find him.  I love all over him, tell him how scared I was, and I need him to come home with me in the car. 

We get home, there are 3 cop cars here, and things settle.

Two days later we take him to his T.  When it is our turn to go in, my BPDs spends the parent part of the session tearing me a new one ... . I caused all these problems.

I stood up, told my wife that 2/3 of our kids have run away and I will not wait for the last one to try.  This 2nd boundary has "suddenly" got her sick, having medication reaction after another, having two emergency mental health hospitalizations, and now she is in a step down program. 

I have had to juggle business, hiring babysitters to cover morning and afternoon transport to day camps, and I have had it.  Once I get this house repaired (huge three story leak a YEAR ago still not repaired), I'm setting my sights on getting her out of our lives.  I am sure she will not go quietly.  If she were smart she would concede.  This year alone has already has enough smoke rising... .

[bpbreakout]

Overse... . it's very hard isn't it. I really worry about the effect our marriage is having on the kids and I would love to spend more time with them alone as I enjoy their company as well as loving them. I have s12 and d15, S12 is the golden boy and BPDw relies on him too much in my view and d15 is the bad one.

I have reached a compromise of sorts. Since understanding what BPD is about I'm learning to live day to day, I don't see our marriage as permanent but on balance I think kids are better off if we stay together though it's a very thin line. D15 is in regular therapy which I have arranged to help with with her relationship with Mum. Both kids seem to be doing well at high school and have good friends at school and in the area where we live and doing interetsing out of school activities. They seem to have lots of good things in their life other than whats going on at home which can be very hard and full of conflict. I try to stay fit and active, have interests, I have a rewarding job and don't see too much of BPDw. I see a therapist as I am working through how long I want to stay in the marriage. Now the children are older there is less need to "back up" BDW's parenting which often involves tantrums when kids try to negotiate or answer back. This was a big issue in our marriage but I'm much much better at not being sucked in and at times I openly disagree with the way that BPDw tries to parent children. It goes down very badly but I think important for kids to see that tantrums are not the way to parent. I think it can get better if you work on yourself which in turn is good modelling for the kids. However like many on this board I wish I had a true partner rather than having to live in damage control mode. Interesting that as I have shifted BPDw wants to do marriage counselling.

Good luck with your decsion making process

[empathic]

Overse... . it's very hard isn't it. I really worry about the effect our marriage is having on the kids and I would love to spend more time with them alone as I enjoy their company as well as loving them. I have s12 and d15, S12 is the golden boy and BPDw relies on him too much in my view and d15 is the bad one.

I have reached a compromise of sorts. Since understanding what BPD is about I'm learning to live day to day, I don't see our marriage as permanent but on balance I think kids are better off if we stay together though it's a very thin line. D15 is in regular therapy which I have arranged to help with with her relationship with Mum. Both kids seem to be doing well at high school and have good friends at school and in the area where we live and doing interetsing out of school activities. They seem to have lots of good things in their life other than whats going on at home which can be very hard and full of conflict. I try to stay fit and active, have interests, I have a rewarding job and don't see too much of BPDw. I see a therapist as I am working through how long I want to stay in the marriage. Now the children are older there is less need to "back up" BDW's parenting which often involves tantrums when kids try to negotiate or answer back. This was a big issue in our marriage but I'm much much better at not being sucked in and at times I openly disagree with the way that BPDw tries to parent children. It goes down very badly but I think important for kids to see that tantrums are not the way to parent. I think it can get better if you work on yourself which in turn is good modelling for the kids. However like many on this board I wish I had a true partner rather than having to live in damage control mode. Interesting that as I have shifted BPDw wants to do marriage counselling.

Good luck with your decsion making process

I've reached a similar point, living day to day. I'm also trying to accept the fact that this r/s won't go on forever. I feel like I've mourned the loss of the ideal I had already. I'm now working on improving myself, doing things for myself. As my wife does not work, apart from a number of projects she's got going, I see the kids less than I used to do say a year back when I also worked less than I do today. The good thing about that is that she gets used to being with the kids herself, she had a hard time with that when the kids were younger. Like you say, it could be so much better than trying to minimize damage, but that's the best I can do right now.

[OutOfEgypt]

I almost divorced my uBPDexw twice, and each time I filed for full custody.  If I followed through at the time, I may have won.  But when I actually followed through with divorce, my then wife filed a restraining order (based on lies) in order to get me out of the house.  She always wanted 50/50 with the kids.  She, since she is obviously awesome and an expert, insisted that was best for the kids, and she even put it into the minds of our children.  When I saw all of this, I realized that a few things would happen if I went for custody:

1. She would lie.  And I might lose. Badly.  She would make up ANYTHING to make sure I couldn't take the kids away from her, regardless of the years of her neglect and emotional uninvolvement.  She CANNOT face the guilt and shame and would do anything, even frightening things, if I threaten to put her into a position where she has to face it all.

2. She would manipulate the children.  Even if I won, she would lie and do anything to manipulate the kids and try to turn them against me.  Even if she didn't succeed (my kids have a strong bond with me), it would still put them through way too much.  They deserve to have some peace.

I decided I would go for joint custody and 50/50 parenting time, what she wanted.  We settled on child support and spousal support and go the divorce over with quickly.  I don't believe she deserves a dime of spousal support, but I know a judge would probably not agree.  It is not great, but there are a number of plusses for me.  But I knew what would happen, and so far it is, in general.

The bottom line is that you will be hard pressed to keep their mom totally out of their lives, so I came to the conclusion that the less I challenge her black-hole of a broken ego, the less chaos I will put my children through, and they will be able to come to their own conclusions about mommy and who they want to live with.  And that is already happening.  They see that mommy is how mommy is, and it has nothing to do with anything but mommy.  They see that mommy is like a teenage drama queen.  They see that mommy doesn't know how to be emotionally involved.  And that sucks.  But it makes the time with me sweeter, and as they continue to age they will continue to grow stronger with me until the day where they will likely say they just don't want to live in that anymore.

And besides, I know that in spite of how their mom loves them, she doesn't *really* want to be a mom.  This is mainly about her ego and not wanting to face shame and guilt and admit that she is a neglectful waif and attention-whore who cares more about the next 25-year-old man she can lure in with her fancy clothes and sex-appeal.  So, while she is off working or doing whatever, I see them a LOT during her weeks to have them.  And I know that will only continue as they age.  In other words, the papers say 50/50, but I see them almost every day -even if its not for overnights, I still see them.

I really don't know if this was the right thing to do, but my gut tells me it was the best of bad decisions for MY situation, at least.  Sometimes I feel differently, sometimes I HATE that I am financially strapped because this woman claims she needs the money to start a new life and career for herself, but I really don't want to put the kids through more garbage.  So I support them, I support their relationship with their mom -never putting an obstacle between them.  Yet I am truthful and honest about her behavior when they come to me about it.  I am a sounding board and support for them.  I tell them, "I know, honey.  Mommy was like that with me, too.  And yes, I know she doesn't listen.  I'm sorry.  I finally decided I didn't want to deal with that anymore.  I know you love her.  I love her too.  I'm always here.  If you don't want to be over there, you don't have to be."

That is essential.  My therapist said that it really matters who the children's deepest bond is with.  Theirs is thankfully with me, so that alone shields them and gives them a foundation to not enmesh in her garbage and see things as they are.  And they do.  My eldest daughter is shockingly astute about how her mother is.  But with anything, these kids love their mother unconditionally and regardless of how selfish or childish she is, they still will always love her and want to see her.  So I have to balance that good need of theirs with my fatherly instinct to protect them.  And so I stick close and watch like a hawk.  I write everything down, just in case the time comes when I need to drop the hammer and protect them.

Whether you stay or go, there is one thing for sure.  Your children need one stable parent.  They need you to no longer live by your BPD partners rules and emotional tyrrany.  So, either way you will need to detach from that and set your own path, a separate household of sorts... . even if in the same house.

Good luck.  It isn't easy.  Everyone will tell you what you need to do, and it doesn't help.  It hurts.  At least, it did for me.

[gary seven]

The bottom line is that you will be hard pressed to keep their mom totally out of their lives, so I came to the conclusion that the less I challenge her black-hole of a broken ego, the less chaos I will put my children through, and they will be able to come to their own conclusions about mommy and who they want to live with.


 But it makes the time with me sweeter, and as they continue to age they will continue to grow stronger with me until the day where they will likely say they just don't want to live in that anymore.

I really don't know if this was the right thing to do, but my gut tells me it was the best of bad decisions for MY situation, at least.  Sometimes I feel differently, sometimes I HATE that I am financially strapped because this woman claims she needs the money to start a new life and career for herself, but I really don't want to put the kids through more garbage.  So I support them, I support their relationship with their mom -never putting an obstacle between them.  Yet I am truthful and honest about her behavior when they come to me about it.  I am a sounding board and support for them.  I tell them, "I know, honey.  Mommy was like that with me, too.  And yes, I know she doesn't listen.  I'm sorry.  I finally decided I didn't want to deal with that anymore.  I know you love her.  I love her too.  I'm always here.  If you don't want to be over there, you don't have to be."

That is essential.  My therapist said that it really matters who the children's deepest bond is with.  Theirs is thankfully with me, so that alone shields them and gives them a foundation to not enmesh in her garbage and see things as they are.  And they do.  My eldest daughter is shockingly astute about how her mother is.  But with anything, these kids love their mother unconditionally and regardless of how selfish or childish she is, they still will always love her and want to see her.  So I have to balance that good need of theirs with my fatherly instinct to protect them.  And so I stick close and watch like a hawk.  I write everything down, just in case the time comes when I need to drop the hammer and protect them.

Whether you stay or go, there is one thing for sure.  Your children need one stable parent.  They need you to no longer live by your BPD partners rules and emotional tyrrany.  So, either way you will need to detach from that and set your own path, a separate household of sorts... . even if in the same house.

Good luck.  It isn't easy.  Everyone will tell you what you need to do, and it doesn't help.  It hurts.  At least, it did for me.

Out of Egypt:

Your choices are my projections at this point.  I cling in faithfully for years " to protect the children," but now that I understand what I am dealing with, I am slowly inching along your path of realization.

She is there Mom, there is no changing that.  So for the time being if I am doing all the shopping and  laundry and what not, there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

So right at this moment she is up in bed, the kids are watching tv and I am going to go outside and do some gardening.