Sign of significant healing?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My "tending towards BPD" gf told me today that every time she has said to me that she really, really wants me to be her husband, she was actually just being needy and desperate.

Bit of background she has already done 6 months of therapy due to my boundary setting in November.

My optimism is because this indicates to me that she is becoming self aware of just how needy she was and, as she says, that she no longer wishes to be that person or to come from that place... .

This in turn makes me feel cautiously optimistic about our relationship (?) - because how can you trust someone who is so needy that they will say whatever needs to be said to whoever is in front of them to get their needs met. YOU CAN'T! And also how can I meet the impossibly needy needs that come from that place. And isn't that the source of the rages?

So I feel this is a good sign of progress as it indicates she is starting to both come from a less needy place and be aware of this, and thus I feel (?) there is much more of a good chance that I would no longer be held to the impossibly high standard of meeting those desperately needy needs (which is the source of the rage on the non's rationality)

- or am I looking at it through rose tinted lenses... . !

I don't think so.

FYI - The 6 months therapy has been EMDR.

[AimingforMastery]

My "tending towards BPD" gf told me today that every time she has said to me that she really, really wants me to be her husband, she was actually just being needy and desperate.

Bit of background she has already done 6 months of therapy due to my boundary setting in November.

My optimism is because this indicates to me that she is becoming self aware of just how needy she was and, as she says, that she no longer wishes to be that person or to come from that place... .

This in turn makes me feel cautiously optimistic about our relationship (?) - because how can you trust someone who is so needy that they will say whatever needs to be said to whoever is in front of them to get their needs met. YOU CAN'T! And also how can I meet the impossibly needy needs that come from that place. And isn't that the source of the rages?

So I feel this is a good sign of progress as it indicates she is starting to both come from a less needy place and be aware of this, and thus I feel (?) there is much more of a good chance that I would no longer be held to the impossibly high standard of meeting those desperately needy needs (which is the source of the rage on the non's rationality)

- or am I looking at it through rose tinted lenses... . !

I don't think so.

FYI - The 6 months therapy has been EMDR.

[AimingforMastery]

Does anyone have any comments on this?

They would be much appreciated.

The next day she tried to say she had already told me these things months ago (not true) but as we discussed it more, she could see the progress. She also confirmed again that this was the first time that she had really felt that hollow, hole feeling inside of her that she desperately needs to fill when she feels bad... .

I am trying to understand if this is a significant sign that the therapy is working. 

Many thanks.

[Theo41]

I have two takes on your situation.

1. It's really very positive that she recognizes the need for therapy and has made a sustained effort to continue/ learn/grow/change. Many if not most are in denial and unwilling to go for therapy. So it's a very good sign that your girlfriend had done that. Big plus.

2. Your not married and as far as I can tell, no children with her. Don't get married or have children before u sort this out. Children suffer growing up in a home withBPD and it's much much harder to break up once uhave a child and or get married. Theo

[Leap]

I've got to agree with Theo.  6 months is good but a couple of years is better.  I know that sounds like a long time but if she is seriously taking her illness seriously, then the two years is realistic.  Faith is what you have and you are in your relationship but I wouldn't push ahead too quickly.  They can recover but can also relapse, just like an addict or alcoholic.  She has to be willing to commit to her recovery for the rest of her life doing it one day at a time.  If I were you, I would also take it one day at a time, that's all we really have.  Good luck and God's speed, you never know, you both may be two of the few who can pull through and have the relationship you both want.  Faith, Hope and Love.

[AimingforMastery]

I have two takes on your situation.

1. It's really very positive that she recognizes the need for therapy and has made a sustained effort to continue/ learn/grow/change. Many if not most are in denial and unwilling to go for therapy. So it's a very good sign that your girlfriend had done that. Big plus.

2. Your not married and as far as I can tell, no children with her. Don't get married or have children before u sort this out. Children suffer growing up in a home withBPD and it's much much harder to break up once uhave a child and or get married. Theo

Thank you Leap and Theo.

That is encouraging and I appreciate it. They are also very good thoughts about going slowly with my BPD GF.

My question centers now on my own health. I have started to age significantly as a result of all of this and rarely sleep through a whole night as a result.

I don't want to abandon someone who is really committed to healing and growth, but I can't destroy myself. If I take a few months break she may well move on, and in a sense reconfirm many of her old wounds _ I can't trust anyone, people are not trustworthy etc etc.

The approach I am considering is telling her how proud I am of the gains and work she is doing and that I want to make this relationship work but it is taking a real toll on my health and so I would like to ask her and her therapist to help me (us) with this... . in the hope I will get some greater consideration to my feelings and hence improve my health and allow me to stay with her... .

I would be most grateful for your thoughts or any another approach to improve my health... .

Also, we are not living together yet (currently long distance). We did live together but she tended to rage at me each day - that has improved. But I am due to be heading down there in the next two weeks or looking at withdrawing to preserve my health.

All advice and thoughts are welcome. Thank you.

[Leap]

As I read recently regarding dealing with a loved one with BPD, go with your gut instinct.  I tend to agree with this because I didn't for so long which made my relationship worse and I did both myself and my BPD wife (as well as my step children) a disservice by not doing that.  Faith. Hope. Love

[AimingforMastery]

As I read recently regarding dealing with a loved one with BPD, go with your gut instinct.  I tend to agree with this because I didn't for so long which made my relationship worse and I did both myself and my BPD wife (as well as my step children) a disservice by not doing that.  Faith. Hope. Love

Thank you Hope. I really appreciate that.

On gut instinct, I agree that is the key. Although I think we have to be grounded and calm and balanced to know our gut from our fears... .

A quick update, she and I talked today for several hours and I expressed my feelings in such a way as to ask for her help (i.e. opposite of invalidating) and it went very well. I was surprised. If that can become consistent then I am in. My gut just knows that I can't take too much (any?) more of the old. But 6 months of therapy has certainly helped... .

You know, it is such a tough situation for any non, as you don't want to abandon them as it was not their fault they were traumatized such, but you are going to suffer big time until they get it under control... . and hopefully healed... .

One extra point drawing from what you said Leap, I think we tend to fall into a catch 22 where early in their healing you can't really express hardly any needs or confront as they can't handle that - feels like invalidate. So one's natural gut instinct to speak up and say - HEH! Whoa! about whatever it is, almost gets stuffed = very unhealthy.

It takes a Spiritual Warrior to love a BPD.

[Grey Kitty]

I'd say that any new levels of self-awareness of prior messed up behavior is a good sign!

Also, we are not living together yet (currently long distance). We did live together but she tended to rage at me each day - that has improved. But I am due to be heading down there in the next two weeks or looking at withdrawing to preserve my health.

Dunno how your respective lives are structured... . is there a middle-ground option, where you live in the same town, each with your own place?

That would be lower stakes than moving in together with a new lease or one of you getting a new job, etc.

I'd also note that many folks on the staying board managed to go from daily or multi-day rages to almost none of it, by enforcing boundaries to not stick around and be raged at.

[AimingforMastery]

I'd say that any new levels of self-awareness of prior messed up behavior is a good sign!

Also, we are not living together yet (currently long distance). We did live together but she tended to rage at me each day - that has improved. But I am due to be heading down there in the next two weeks or looking at withdrawing to preserve my health.

Dunno how your respective lives are structured... . is there a middle-ground option, where you live in the same town, each with your own place?

That would be lower stakes than moving in together with a new lease or one of you getting a new job, etc.

I'd also note that many folks on the staying board managed to go from daily or multi-day rages to almost none of it, by enforcing boundaries to not stick around and be raged at.

Thank you Kitty, that is good advice. She lives in a major city and I don't like major cities so... . but it may be best for me to live in a place within an hour's flight (i.e. much closer than I do now) and we can do alternate weekends or something... .

She came to visit and I received the daily blasts even though she is not fully aware of that yet! In the end I said I could not cope and either left or in the end she went home. terrible in some ways but a turning point as now we have an agreement to never go beyond calm... . So far it goes well, and today... .

I even brought up my feelings and concerns and they were handled well, generally. There is hope.

It is still hard though to bring them up as you do get conditioned to just stuff it to avoid the blasts... .

[Theo41]

Regarding your health:

1. Your body is telling you "I don't want or like this and I can't take it."

2. About 10 years ago my doctor said "if your wife doesn't take her anti-depressants you are the one who is going to get sick".

I have been married for decades to an upwBPD. She's smart, attractive, charismatic and also hell  on wheels much of the time. I have survived in the relationship by maintaining space and distance. I spend less than half my waking hours with her and have many active and satisfying interests and relationships apart from her. Despite what my Doctor said I have not fallen ill.

If her shenanigans had the effect of making me sick I would have to remove myself (separate or divorce) We don't deserve to be mistreated the way they do us, and we really owe it to ourselves not to allow a person to ruin our health.  THEO

[Grey Kitty]

I even brought up my feelings and concerns and they were handled well, generally. There is hope.

It is still hard though to bring them up as you do get conditioned to just stuff it to avoid the blasts... .

Yes, there is hope. However when it comes to rages or "daily blasts" I don't think you are going to see the results you want by bringing up your feelings and concerns.

Being consistent in stepping out as the rage starts really works. And once you realize that you can get out of it immediately, you start losing the fear of triggering it.

Once you get past your fear, your part gets better too--you have the energy to be more validating, and that improves the relationship, and sometimes situations that would have turned into a rage are defused early.

[Narellan]

Hi... Can I just add my .2c worth

You said when she visits you, she blasts you and rants at you. Is this recent? You also say she is making good progress in therapy she's been in for 6 months. But I'm confused because you're in a long distance relationship so how can you see any progress? Maybe you're just seeing what she wants you to see ? If she's still raging at you when you are face to face that is the real her Not who she pretends to be during a phone call. I would be very cautious about moving myself from my job/ friends anytime soon. I would also not be considering marriage or children if things are still volatile.

The most important thing  is your health. You say it's already taken its toll. I would really start putting myself and my needs first if I were you. You have the benefit of having distance between you and your BPD, use it to find things you enjoy doing. Hobbies, gym, walking etc.

I wish you well.

[AimingforMastery]

Hi... Can I just add my .2c worth

You said when she visits you, she blasts you and rants at you. Is this recent? You also say she is making good progress in therapy she's been in for 6 months. But I'm confused because you're in a long distance relationship so how can you see any progress? Maybe you're just seeing what she wants you to see ? If she's still raging at you when you are face to face that is the real her Not who she pretends to be during a phone call. I would be very cautious about moving myself from my job/ friends anytime soon. I would also not be considering marriage or children if things are still volatile.

The most important thing  is your health. You say it's already taken its toll. I would really start putting myself and my needs first if I were you. You have the benefit of having distance between you and your BPD, use it to find things you enjoy doing. Hobbies, gym, walking etc.

I wish you well.

Thank you. I appreciate this. You may be right that she is putting on a face, but when we Skype it seems very genuine. She does not hide the rages well, so its pretty transparent.

The daily blasts are getting less. Phone calls and skypes used to be pretty terrible too. Now they are a lot better. Yesterday, as an example, we spent several hours on Skype during the course of the day, and she did not go off once. I also trust Skype video much more than voice as I can see if she is pretending more easily as I can see her face and body language. She does not have the ability to hide her anger. The worse I get now is a frown and the beginnings of a child emerging, and you can see she kind of wants to go off, but she checks herself and doesn't say anything. It's like she has the ability now to *not* go there. (I need to see many more months of that... . :-) )

She has also written to me recently recognizing that for her, her need for love is often expressed through anger, and she is working on that in therapy too.

Is that awareness signs of progress, or is the only thing that counts behavior change?

And yes when we were face to face on the last trip it was not raging so much as daily blasts. It is better than when I lived with her last year, but I felt VERY relieved when I set a boundary at the end of this recent visit clearly saying no more of this lashing out at me ever. Expressing your feelings in a decent way or I am out. I was very, very firm about this, and so she bailed and almost ended the relationship. The only other time I set a very firm boundary (get EMDR therapy or I'm out) she did eventually end it and go off - so this reaction is also some progress, but still too much volatility as she threatened to end it and push pulled.

Since then by my taking the lead in radiating the behaviour I want to see in her, and talking about it, that has worked. and I am saying no more push pull at all from now on and she agrees. we will see... .

I am not considering children or marriage at this time. It is far too soon. Nor am I going to move myself wholly into her world. I would need to see two things change and improve consistently - one significant behavior changes on her part (consistent consideration for my feelings, no more abusive attacks etc.) and secondly a completely different reaction in my body.

I appreciate the suggestion that I have the benefit of having distance between her and I. That is a very good way of looking at things during this period where I am looking to see if there is genuine progress. yesterday I started doing meditational practices for my health and will keep that up as a daily routine for my health.

FWIW - you may all enjoy looking at EMDR and its efficacy in BPD. I think it is the best treatment for PTSD and trauma, which I believe underlies BPD.

However, all this being said my health has really suffered in the last 6 months of this relationship. I wish I had learned to speak up for my needs in a BPD appropriate way earlier, or walked... .

[Narellan]

It's great you can see progress. That's great for her.

Her behaviour towards you is the main important thing here. It's ok if she's learning, I think they all can do that, it's being able to modify the behaviour that they can't sustain.

You sound like you've got a good grasp of it all. Well done and peace to you... .

And you can still walk... . Anytime. X

[AimingforMastery]

It's great you can see progress. That's great for her.

Her behaviour towards you is the main important thing here. It's ok if she's learning, I think they all can do that, it's being able to modify the behaviour that they can't sustain.

You sound like you've got a good grasp of it all. Well done and peace to you... .

And you can still walk... . Anytime. X

Thanks Narellan and all.

Yes we spoke again this morning and she was loving and we turned back from a moment where she could have gone nasty. I realize, and I am not sure if this is true for all, but the non has to lead.  I think the BPD SO has to realize that the peace, love, joy they crave is within us. Of course, this is next to impossible when thunder is raining down on us from them. Like a bad movie... .

I just gently stress to her that it is like being an alcoholic and we go one day at a time, staying calm, nice and loving. But I include myself in that - so it's "we" are alcoholics... . I try to stress we are in tis together and very rarely use the word borderline now.

Again, I like what you said about not sharing the same place. I am thinking of moving down there for 3 months (for me - my plan anyway) and now because of what you said, for the first month not living together but have her visit at weekends and use that to see the progress and measure it face to face... .

Let me know what you think of EMDR, because I think BPD and other labels are just that. In essence, we have people who have been terribly hurt and they need tp face and reprocess the traumas they have been through.

Personally I think it is better than CBT, although I am no expert in CBT, as I think it is more consistent with a depth approach.

Thanks again.

[Narellan]

That's a really good plan to have separate living quarters... . It doesn't lock you in to something that could go either way. Well done! I won't comment on the different therapies because this I am not read up on. All the best 

[Grey Kitty]

Is that awareness signs of progress, or is the only thing that counts behavior change?

I think awareness is indeed progress--it is harder (impossible?) to change something in yourself when you don't even see it.

If awareness isn't leading to changes in behavior, then what good does it do you?

However, all this being said my health has really suffered in the last 6 months of this relationship.

I'm pretty sure that what you describe here is the result of her behavior.

See if you find yourself healthier and happier as you get closer to her. If not, that is probably your cue to do something different.

[AimingforMastery]

Is that awareness signs of progress, or is the only thing that counts behavior change?

I think awareness is indeed progress--it is harder (impossible?) to change something in yourself when you don't even see it.

If awareness isn't leading to changes in behavior, then what good does it do you?

However, all this being said my health has really suffered in the last 6 months of this relationship.

I'm pretty sure that what you describe here is the result of her behavior.

See if you find yourself healthier and happier as you get closer to her. If not, that is probably your cue to do something different.

Thanks Kitty, I think that is the test. So far I have often felt unhealthy being "with" her. The body rarely lies. I am now fighting for everything I believed in and wanted. It is one thing to have her family thanking me for what I have done for her, but... . at what cost to me? Going into battle for someone ill is never free.

So yes awareness is key. Without that no change is possible. But I am now seeing behavior changes.

BUT the next question, when looking ahead comes from this - I am not so nieve to expect that life will not contain many, many stresses over the years ahead. And under those stresses, what will happen? Will she revert? There is always a high chance unless completely well. That is why I am such a fan of depth work. As I feel it is the only work that gets to the route causes.

So will the changes stick?

Or, worse to consider, are the changes a smart person's ability to put on the right face for this particular audience? Ouch... .

Harsh? or Fair?

For if the root symptom (not root cause) of BPD is no, or very, very weak sense of self, then unless healed can they still be simply playing the chameleon to each audience? For example, stop raging - sure - but yet still be exhibiting the core issue of acting to fill the hole in different ways depending on who the audience is - lock, stock and barrel.

In other words we have to be aware that almost every sign of progress could just be a better act, due to attachment? I don't like to even consider that, but I am obliged to at least consider it - what do you all think?

It is, of course, a terrible thought but progress could be ironically the worst thing to "see". It strikes me the key is where is the progress coming from - the soul? or the emerging skill set to meet the need to be accepted?

For if, if, if (and I truly hope not) the latter, then once accepted - the clock may well be ticking to the next catastrophe... .

Life is hard, and by getting closer to a person like this it can become terribly difficult. Buddhist detachment has never been so important.

Sorry for arguably being so deep, but I welcome all your thoughts... .

[Grey Kitty]

I'm going to take a slight turn to the left; you are asking questions I cannot possibly answer. There is no way for any of us to know what her personal journey through mental illness and (hopefully) toward better mental health will go.

You mention Buddhist concepts. I personally have found mindfullness meditation to be very helpful to me in coping with this among other things. I recommend you read this workshop, which is drawn from these concepts.

Radical Acceptance for family members

My question for you is this:

Can you accept her being who she is right now, complete with mental illness?

Do you want a relationship with her, as she is right now?

[AimingforMastery]

I'm going to take a slight turn to the left; you are asking questions I cannot possibly answer. There is no way for any of us to know what her personal journey through mental illness and (hopefully) toward better mental health will go.

You mention Buddhist concepts. I personally have found mindfullness meditation to be very helpful to me in coping with this among other things. I recommend you read this workshop, which is drawn from these concepts.

Radical Acceptance for family members

My question for you is this:

Can you accept her being who she is right now, complete with mental illness?

Do you want a relationship with her, as she is right now?

If the behavior changes are a reflection of true healing, yes.

If they are an act, no.

Pretty darn difficult to know... .

[Grey Kitty]

You can't see what is in her head.

All you can see is her behavior.

And having been on the other side of this (being accused of thinking or feeling something about my wife), I can vouch for it being crazy-making to think about this sort of stuff.

The (useful) question is not whether she is "truly healed" or not.

The question is what relationship do you want with her given her actual behavior.

[Narellan]

I'm going to throw caution to the wind here, and suggest you go to L5 staying board, and read through some of these people's posts. These are real life stories of people who chose to stay and what they are going through. It may help you get some clarity. If you view BPD as alcoholism, there is always a high chance the BPD sufferer will return to what they know.

A second thought is... . This is a hard long journey and it sounds to me you don't have much left to give. Your health is already suffering as you say due to you putting her first. I'm not going to give you advice one way or the other, but ill say one thing, this is by far the most difficult and devastating relationship I've been in. Are you up for that? . Because truly relationships should not be so difficult.

Peace x

[AimingforMastery]

 

Thanks Kitty and Narellan... .

Will go take a look... .

AM