MUST I TELL HER THAT I SUSPECT BPD

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi All

I consulted a psychologist about my wife of 10 bad tears behind us

He suggested that she suffers from BPD

Must I tell her that ?

And how ?

[Fanie]

Hi All

I consulted a psychologist about my wife of 10 bad tears behind us

He suggested that she suffers from BPD

Must I tell her that ?

And how ?

[arjay]

Hi All

I consulted a psychologist about my wife of 10 bad tears behind us

He suggested that she suffers from BPD

Must I tell her that ?

And how ?

I actually considered setting up cameras to document my BPDxw behavior and show it to her.  I did present her with over-the-top emails she had sent to me, and she just laughed and tore them up.  When I suggested she had emotional issues which concerned me, she often would justify them by blaming them on "something I did/didn't do/etc".

My "T" said "no" when I asked the same and that "she" had to be open to being tested and diagnosed, otherwise it would likely trigger deeper hurt and more chaos; that staying in counseling and working on myself was the best thing and only thing I could do.

Maybe suggesting to her that counseling is helping you and something she might consider too would be the simple approach.

Peace

[Fanie]

In the mean-time I searched old threads 2010 / 2012 etc

Everybody says : don't go there !

I read the threads and its makes sense why not ie. not acknowledge

throw it back to you etc.

OK then, what do I do to get her to know she has problems and to

voluntarily go for therapy - OR -

Don't even consider therapy

Of all the threads I read the past few months is  - validate, boundries etc - but don't

mention BPD (she must realize it herself?)

Its been 10 years how long?

In the mean time my life is at a standstill

[Fanie]

Sorry RJ

You know how helpless we feel sometimes

we have 2 toddlers !

[Fanie]

Me again RJ

Ru suggesting that I should go into therapy ?

I am a codependent

[Turkish]

Hi All

I consulted a psychologist about my wife of 10 bad tears behind us

He suggested that she suffers from BPD

Must I tell her that ?

And how ?

"Must" is a strong word, Fanie. Did your psychologist suggest that you tell her?

Maybe you can take a look at this discussion for some insight:

PERSPECTIVES: Telling someone that you think they have BPD

[Fanie]

No he did not

The only thing he said was " I don't think she will change

[Turkish]

Me again RJ

Ru suggesting that I should go into therapy ?

I am a codependent

You know yourself better than I do, of course, but I'll pass on what my T told me, "We don't need to pathologize everything, Turkish!"

He told me that several times over many months as I was arguing with him that something had to be "wrong" with me. Therapy can be a great support and outlet, and may help you work out some issues; perhaps, even reveal some things to you about yourself. But I suggest taking it easy on yourself and not going in assuming there is some hidden, mind-blowing secret ready to emerge.

My experience, while not as dramatic as arjay's, was similar. Denial, projection. Called herself a "woman of character" while I lacked character (so lying, cheating, and neglecting our children show character?). I stopped that conversation. Ditto the one where I tried to discuss through email my co-dependent traits while showing her co-dependent enmeshment with "taking care" of her family, something she always resented, but felt compelled to do. Later, when I referred to my co-dependent traits, she said, "yeah, like your smoking!" 

I threw out the BPD "dX" once to her in an argument. I was triggered because I interpreted something she said to mean that she was going to just take the kids away from me. After we calmed down, she said it scared the crap out of her. I never brought it up again.

She later self-diagnosed herself with a non-specific "attachment disorder," in a weird sort of mirroring story I won't drag the thread down with. I did not reply to that, having been active here on this site by then.

She later told me that I threw her "sickness" in her face, and that was why she "had to leave" (never mind the boy toy). Funny, I was just urging her to get help for her sake and that of our kids. This was when she collapsed on my bed (she had been sleeping on the couch for months) in utter depression and tears. It was a typical BPD mood swing. She awoke an hour later after a nap like it never happened and told me she just needed to reset.

The point is that they need to get to that point where they realize they need help themselves. It has to come from them, and hopefully we can be involved in the support process if they get to this point.

[OutOfEgypt]

Hi Fanie,

Two things for you:

1) In my experience, when I told my wife (at the time) that I thought she was BPD or NPD, she was offended and then called up her friend who works as a nurse in mental health and the laughed and mocked me.  It just became more ammunition to use against me and put me down with and elevate herself with.  Although I sent her a detailed email with the reasons I thought she was BPD, she obviously did not read it.  She mocked me and told me and others that I thought she had "multiple personality disorder" or that she was "crazy."  In other words, she turned it into an attack.

2) You probably are codependent, but I used to tell myself that for years and it did no good.  It was basically me parroting the controlling, manipulative things she would tell me as a way to get the focus off her behavior.  Their goal is to get the eyes off of their awful behavior and get you to think there is always something wrong with you so that you carry the load of all the crap.  So, essentially, if we allow ourselves to get enmeshed with that dynamic (and frankly it is extremely hard NOT to when you are married to someone like this... . you basically are forced to either sell your soul to try to keep them happy and take all the blame or leave them), we become "codependent" for sure.  Therapy helps.  ISTDP (intensive short-term dynamic psychotherapy) is the therapy that helped me tremendously, much more than all of the talk-therapy or CBT I ever did.  Through that therapy, I found myself and realized I needed to leave otherwise I would always be a slave... . which is good for nobody, certainly not me or my kids.  They need at least one stable person who is not totally revolved around their mother.

[arjay]

(counseling)... . "and not going in assuming there is some hidden, mind-blowing secret ready to emerge... . "

I couldn't agree more with Turkish regarding counseling.  What it did do for me was begin to open my eyes that my 'ex' was BPD and that only she could take care of it.  Secondly I did deal with my "stuff" as well.  I came away better understanding my shortcomings and seeing a common thread in my past relationships.  It allowed me to focus on my issues, some of which were contributory to making things worse.

Nothing I did or could do however was going to "fix her".  Notice I said "fix"; what rescuer/fixer/white knight does, something I realized about myself.

This site is where I came to really understand that I was not alone; that others shared similar experiences and that it is a really tough road but improvement can occur if both are motivated.  In the absence of that however, it is a more difficult path.

Peace

[Fanie]

Being here with my BPD family , for a couple of months only... . I wonder ... .

More often its seems as if all of us start at the "Staying" board,

the we slowly downgrade to "undecided"

until we finally realise

it time too "get out"

?

[Fanie]

The honest truth is that I ALMOST" told her !

Thank you Lord that I did not !

And thank you everybody that posted here !


PS

(I also searched this site and found additional reading in archives 2010, 2012 etc)

[Turkish]

Being here with my BPD family , for a couple of months only... . I wonder ... .

More often its seems as if all of us start at the "Staying" board,

the we slowly downgrade to "undecided"

until we finally realise

it time too "get out"

?

I  can see where you might think that,  but most of us come here as Leavers.  There are quite a few  long term  Stayers,  and there are success stories as well.

[Fanie]

Everybody is so very helpful - thank you to everyone  !

Arjay / Turkish please join in the stuff below - In fact all family members !

OutofEgypt (wonder what's behind this name?)

I have so many things to ask / in common with you

I wish we could have a braai together and sit the whole night just talking !

A big thank you to you !

Yep I am codependent (feeling as if I slowly get around it since joining this family)

Now some questions for you:

  You are divorced from her, right?

  Did ur divorce made her (triggered) her to be worse now?

  How often do you see your children?

  I see that your children prefer your company

  Why does she have to see them? Court order?

  It would be better for them never to see her again?

         (I read an article on Sociopath disorder - the advice is 100% NO_CONTACT)

  Your therapy ISTDP, is that for your codependency ?

  You also posted at length on my other thread (Binging) in great detail - thanx again my friend !

I am going to ask you here, on what you posted there to make it easy for both of us

  If the Psychologist said that you must get out, which you did, how is it that she still have to see (influence)   the kids that much?

  Are any of them getting help from a therapist? (is it necessary)

  I mean some damage is done already I guess and more damage ... .

  (I ask coz of my 2 toddlers)

  When you had the last child, was it her, of you who wanted it... . my wife sometimes talks in that direction... .

  not sure  ... . and don't want to have another anyway

  Maybe they want to have another child to "enforce" codependency and / or have some psychological comfort for the infancy period ?

  What is you verdict on bonding between tour children with her and also with you? as infants

Regarding sex  would you say that regardless of sex available at home - a BPD has to get it also from the outside, and then deprive the husband thereafter until she is "ready"?

Lastly, and I mentioned it in another thread some time ago;

  I have a feeling that it is just a too great risk to continue in a relationship with a BPDD when you have children - especially for THEIR sake

I mean one can try when its just the two of you - but the risks for the kiddo's ! isn't it just to big?

Are we not very guilty towards our own blood and to God    to remain and expose them to have a horrible life thereafter?

Or must we continue to try  ... . God says forgive 70x7 times

Is our faith to weak ... .

Of course so many questions ... .

Thank you again guys - I wish we could have had a beer together 

 

 

[Fanie]

A difficult question,

Turkish - have you and the spouse separated ?

Sorry 

[Fanie]

Arjay?

Another sorry ... .

And your relationship after 2000 posts ?

 

[OutOfEgypt]

Hi Fanie,

OutofEgypt - that's my reference to my escape out of slavery  An it took a big sacrifice to get out of bondage!

I'll see if I can answer your questions.  And yes, I find discussing this stuff over a beer is great   haha.  I like a nice Porter or a Stout.

 You are divorced from her, right?

 :)id ur divorce made her (triggered) her to be worse now?

Yes, we divorced.  I filed on her two other times due to affairs and because I wanted to go after custody of the children, but I never followed through.  We wound up getting back together.  This last time, however, she filed first on me after I confronted her about BPD.  She felt that I would try to divorce her again and would try to go after the kids again, so she did it to take control.  She also drummed up false allegations of abuse against me and got a restraining order so that she could gain control of the house and the kids, to gain an advantage in case I tried to go after custody of our children.

Divorcing her was difficult.  She didn't understand how I could think something to "awful" about her.  I tried to explain.  It got nowhere, really.  I finally gave up.  The divorce went through, and I started dating someone who really liked me a lot.  A really good woman.  But then my ex talked to me about reconciling, saying that she did want to go to therapy (though she would not explain what she thought her issues were).  Long story short, the beginning of our reconciliation was blissful, but it did not last (and neither did her committment to therapy).  Once she knew I was "hooked" again, after she moved back in (which was very soon), she exhibited the same attitudes and behaviors.  It was a short but very painful exercise in teaching me that she will never change.

Since splitting up this time, it definitely triggered some of her behaviors.  Crying.  :)epresion, and blaming me for it.  Smashing things.  Calling me in the middle of the night telling me that she will always love me (though not any more).  And then once she got past that, now its like she's in high school... . flitting around, tanned skin, white teeth, fancy hair from the salon, with her new guy (or guys) who is 10 years younger than her.  And my girls say that when they are with her on her weeks she still goes out and parties all weekend long, and then sleeps all day.  Sad.

 How often do you see your children?

 I see that your children prefer your company

 Why does she have to see them? Court order?

I am with my children every other week.  We have joint custody with parenting time split equally 50%/50% for overnights.  Yes, in general they prefer my company though they love their mother (and ought to!).  My ex insisted on joint custody and 50/50 parenting time.  She thought I was a terrible person for thinking she is a neglectful mother (though she is and was).  But I realized that a long and expensive court battle would put my kids through too much and would just incite my ex to more horrible behavior.  In other words, she would lie so that I would lose.  And if I won custody, she would manipulate and make it all hell.  So, I felt that this was the easiest way to go and that if I stayed close to my girls they would be okay.  I also knew that time would take care of this, itself, as my girls would see their mom for who she is and probably prefer to not deal with it.  That is already happening.

 It would be better for them never to see her again?

        (I read an article on Sociopath disorder - the advice is 100% NO_CONTACT)

This is tricky.  This is their mother.  As much as *I* would love to never have to see my ex again, this is their mother and it is in the children's best interests, I believe, if we try to help foster their relationship with their mom.  Their mom is not "all bad", and kids are smart.  They know how mommy is.  They still love her, though.

Your therapy ISTDP, is that for your codependency ?

Yes, codependency, obsessing, anxiety, etc.  It is all linked together.  It has helped me tremendously.

If the Psychologist said that you must get out, which you did, how is it that she still have to see (influence)   the kids that much?

Just the way things finally played out.  The story is not over.  Since custody is joint, I can always file for sole custody later on if I need to.  Though, my children are getting older.  I probably won't have to at some point.

 Are any of them getting help from a therapist? (is it necessary)

 I mean some damage is done already I guess and more damage ... .

 (I ask coz of my 2 toddlers)

My youngest did for a time.  I am thinking about finding someone for both of them to talk to.  Remember, this is about attachment.  It sucks that their mom is how she is, but they have you... . which is why it is *imperative* that you get healthy so that you can be a strong, stable, close attachment to them.  The kids will gravitate toward that.

 When you had the last child, was it her, of you who wanted it... . my wife sometimes talks in that direction... .

 not sure  ... . and don't want to have another anyway

 Maybe they want to have another child to "enforce" codependency and / or have some psychological comfort for the infancy period ?

We both wanted her, but my wife claims she felt "forced" and didn't really want another child.  But she loves her.

What is you verdict on bonding between tour children with her and also with you? as infants

My youngest "bonded" via breastfeeding and napping but, in spite of what my ex would say, was not really there for her much other than that.  I'm sure that yielded some struggles for her.  She's had some issues, but she is doing ok.  She's a good girl.

Regarding sex  would you say that regardless of sex available at home - a BPD has to get it also from the outside, and then deprive the husband thereafter until she is "ready"?

She complaind that I was not good enough.  Everything was great at first, but it fell apart after we married and the commitment settled in.  It really ruined sex for me -it became a very painful experience.  And even as I learned to overcome my anxiety about it more, it still was uncomfortable and all about her.  I always felt sex was a way she controlled men.  She lures them in with it, and then she controls them with it.  She would blame me for "not knowing how to approach" her, though the truth is that she would expect that I could essentially "raise the dead" and then blame me for her coldness toward me ("you are supposed to be able to make me NOT cold".  Nor normal.  So, most of our sex was boring in the shower or she would be up in the night watching pornography and masturbating and then, when she finished, she would call me (I was sleeping in another room) to come down and "finish her off."

I have a feeling that it is just a too great risk to continue in a relationship with a BPDD when you have children - especially for THEIR sake.  I mean one can try when its just the two of you - but the risks for the kiddo's ! isn't it just to big?

It depends on the person.  There are obviously huge similarities in many of our experiences, but not all people with BPD are as severe, for sure.  It is just difficult, and each person must make the decision for him or herself.

Are we not very guilty towards our own blood and to God to remain and expose them to have a horrible life thereafter?

Or must we continue to try  ... . God says forgive 70x7 times

Is our faith to weak ... .

I do not feel guilty toward God about this.  I have worked through this, and I know I have grounds to be divorced from her.  I cannot speak for my ex wife's relationship with God.  She claims to be a Christian.  I have not always spoken the truth to her as I ought to, but there are times where I definitely did.  But you must remember that there are people who will not hear it, and that is not our responsibility.  As far as forgiveness goes, I can forgive her.  I work and pray to forgive her and give up all resentment.  In fact, it is necessary.  But forgiveness and holding onto a relationship are NOT the same thing.  Jesus forgave the Pharisees of much, I am sure, but he did not chase them down or try to answer all of their garbage.  He realized they were manipulating him and had no real interest in anything other than their own self-righteousness.  He did not try to have a relationship with people who you can't have a relationship with.  It takes TWO people.  Forgiveness cannot control what the other person does.

Is our faith weak?  I would not say our faith is weak if we don't want to stay.  In fact, I realized that my faith was weakest because I would not let her go and allow God to be God to her.  I needed to stop holding on and thinking I am her hero.  I am not God.  God is God.

Here's a toast with a virtual beer!

[Fanie]

Nostrovia !

To my virtual friend

[Turkish]

Is our faith weak?  I would not say our faith is weak if we don't want to stay.  In fact, I realized that my faith was weakest because I would not let her go and allow God to be God to her.  I needed to stop holding on and thinking I am her hero.  I am not God.  God is God.

Infidelity is breaking the covenant. It is the spouse "leaving" the r/s. I'm no theologian, but this is one of the few grounds for divorce from a Christian perspective.

I like what you said, OOE, I finally let mine go, "technically" ending our r/s, though it was already done. I got sick of her mirroring her parents' dysfunctional and unhealthy marriage (with the gender roles switched).  She of course presented it publicly like she was the long-suffering, unloved waif who wanted to stay for the kids, when it was really the other way around. I let her go as gracefully as I could, despite her all but throwing her new r/s in my face for the 4 months it took me to move her out of my home, partially neglecting our children while she conducted her "teenage" love affair while I took care of the kids more.

In her mind, we were done, so it wasn't cheating. Then why try to hide it, and lie to me about it? Besides, it was the same guy she started cheating on me with anyway.

I did not want my children to get old enough to realize that this was normal. This was her mother and father, and actually a few of her uncles and aunts marriages. I also did not want them to think that a BPD-Rescuer r/s was normal as well, and I knew at some point that our DD might start mirroring her behaviors towards me. So I gave her to God, and my children and me are my new wolf pack (hence my avatar). I let her do what she does, and try to go as LC as I can while still co-parenting with joint custody (papers hopefully soon to be signed by her! I'm the one who served her. She wanted it all under the table). The interesting thing is that she started bringing the kids to my church on her weekends after she left. Partial guilt, part out of respect for me (this dynamic is something else I won't go into here), partially perhaps because it gives her some peace, and partially I think mirroring me and also the faux-religious, immature young narcissist she hooked up with at a club (while I was home taking care of the kids).

I was out of town last week, didn't attend church. I checked the sunday school log for S4 and it looks like she didn't bring them last week. So I think it's more for her to have the kids see me, and also to reconnect and see me because she signaled that she wanted us to be best buds and do stuff together as a family with the kids. NO WAY was I going to "split" the r/s like that. She chose the narc-boy as the "man" in her life, let him be that. I'm done playing Father to her, because that's what I was.

So Fanie, this kind of answers your question, too. She finally abandoned our home in early Feb.

[OutOfEgypt]

Turkish, I agree.  She had walked out on the covenant. 

Divorce sucks, but it is not the end.  As that counselor who first told me my wife (at the time) was BPD has said... . divorce is terrible, for sure, but it is not the end.  Human history begins with a divorce, Biblically speaking -between God and humanity .

I also did not want my kids to think that was "normal."  Last summer, my step-son witnessed his mom drunk and making out with her affair buddy AND his 18-year-old friend (while she was supposed to be working on reconciling with me).  He didn't tell me.  I found out and later confronted him on it.  He admitted that he knew, and I could tell he felt bad.  But I feel the worst for him... . because it was like he brushed it off like it was nothing.  Why wouldn't that HURT and ANGER you to see your mom do that?  Numbness... . it seems that to survive all the hurt and anger, we all learn to numb ourselves to reality because it hurts.  We become institutionalized.

Its funny what you said about church, too.  My ex is not suddenly very Christian and very spiritual, even trying to give me advice... . and asking me to pray about ridiculous things like uprooting our entire family and moving to another state so that SHE can have a better job opportunity.