Boundaries

[Celisara]

Things with my SD15 have gotten a bit out of control in the last 6 months. There has been drug use, unprotected sex, self mutilation, lying, ditching classes, and sneaking out of the house in the middle of the night for hours. She has been seeing a Therapist, and recently DH and I sat down with her alone. We expressed our concern about the fact that SD does not seem to care about the consequences of any of her actions, so we aren't sure how to go about punishing her for the negative actions. The T recommended that we make a list of House Rules, and the set consequences for breaking those rules. She says that doing this will allow SD to make a conscious choice as to whether or not the infraction is worth the repercussion. It seems like a great idea in theory, because you would assume that SD would know exactly what will happen when breaking a rule, and that she will hopefully realize that SHE is the only one responsible for the outcome.

Have any of you done this? If so, what kind of consequences did you set and did it help?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

Dear Celisara

I have done this in the past and I drew up a behavior contract... . I don't think it was very successful at all and I think that was due to how severe it was and how restrictive. Punishments that went on for weeks etc... . so my advise it to try to pinpoint your main controls and try to use natural consequences as much as possible.

For school problems I would let the school hand those kind of infractions. They should be giving her Saturday detention etc... . try to find way to get help from the outside as much as possible because at this point your dd has already shown you she does respect your rules and getting the school involved will at least give you a break on that end of things.

I think it is also important to make it difficult for your dd to commit thse offenses... .

Sneaking out of the house... . I have to say my dd just did this recently and we have reinstated some policies in our home to help stop this kind of behavior. We have an alarm system that we now turn on at night so the a beep goes off if a door or window is open. Also we have installed a bar so her bedroom window will not open. (one my my dd's favorite places to escape) In the past if I found my daughter out of my home without premission then I assumed she had run away and I called the police. I encourage you to do the same. Again get help from the outside as much as you can. My dd ran away so many times she was close to going to juvie. So I think rather than having a set punishment like grounding... . it is better to try and put things in place to prevent and consequences that will hit home for her. I do think the police are helpful in these kind of situations.

For cutting I think that is something to bring to the attention of her therapist... . I don't think there should be a punishment but it should not go unnoticed... . if it is bad I might take her to the ER for an evaluation.

Drug use- I have drug tested my dd a few times and if I were you I would invest in get a test for your home. My dd should not have the freedom to leave my home if she was doing drugs when she was out. I firmly believe that if they are going to participate in illegal activies like drug use then they should not be allowed out of the house. Further if I found any drugs in her room I would call the police immediately and report them. Handing over the drugs. The sooner your dd feels the real consequences of what she is doing the sooner she will stop.

I would tackle each problem and maybe limit the rules to three or for things as to not overwhelm her. I think it is important that she earn your trust back and I simply would not trust her to go places without first following up with the parent of the other person she is going to see. My dd is not allowed to sleep at anyones home that I have not meet their parent. I call or text the mom to double check that my daughter will be spending the night and what their plans will be while at their home.

As far as the unprotected sex... . I would take my dd to the doctor and get her on birth control ASAP. I would also ask the doctor to have a discussion with her regarding sexual transmitted diseases etc... . if she wants to take on this very adult role of being sexually active then it is time to have a very frank conversation with her and again ask for outside help via the doctor.

Have you read Valerie Porr's book... . Overcoming BPD? I do think she talks about having behavior contracts... . I am not sure that is the best way to go with BPD. I think it is really important to let natural consequences come into play as much as possible. I will look and see if I can find anything in Porr's book and post again. Good luck.

[hopeangel]

This is a subject I am really interested in right now as it is something I have just recently started to see some success with.

Although my dd is older (22) she has engaged in all those bad behaviours at some point and I just couldn't get through to her!

What I am learning about boundaries is they are for YOU not the other person, you can only control your own reactions and responses not the behaviour itself, the person with BPD has to WANT to change the behaviours!  Therefore we can use boundaries to try to motivate them to change but punishments and tough love do not seem to work with BPD, it is all about motivation and as jellibeans says, allowing natural consequences to occur to allow learning to sink in.

Boundaries are not rules they are limits you set around yourself as to how much you will let the behaviours affect YOU ie when a person with BPD is raging at you and cannot stop you leave their company every time until they can calm down, this is one of mine!

I am finding the way to motivate my dd into relinquishing behaviours that damage only her is to talk to her in a positive way and highlight all her brilliant and positive qualities and what a great person she is for all these  and then I will explain how the behaviour may be detrimental to her in my opinion and ask her questions about her own opinion ie ':)D you are such a beautiful attractive girl and you are intelligent and kind to animals, I am so proud of you and i know you find things hard at times, I am concerned that when you sleep with boys like that they will not see your true value, what do YOU think a boy will think about you if you sleep with him just like that?' 

The answer is usually he will think she is a worthless piece of s**t, so I say to her 'that is what i am afraid of because i know you to be so beautiful, intelligent and kind, you have such a high value and I worry these boys will not see it when you just sleep with them.

DD then gets a bit angry at the boys for devalueing her  but she takes the message on and while I havent managed to stop the behaviour    it has decreased considerably when she is in a good place now.

I now know that at the core of the BPD condition there is a very painful sense of shame and worthlessness and I am always trying to counter that.  I will tell her she is a good and valuable person whenever i get chance and I give her examples of such 'you helped that dog when you thought it looked ill - what a nice thing to do!' etc.

Motivate the good behaviours and demotivate the bad is my aim, I want to try to motivate a fundimental shift in how dd views herself so she will behave accordingly, it has to come from her but I can plant the seeds in her mind that she is of value!


Hope this helps! 

[hopeangel]

On that note did anyone else read the book 'The Help' about treatment of black maids in the 1960s?

I remember the black nanny repeatedly telling the white child in her care 'you is a GOOD girl and you is a KIND girl!' because she knew the child was growing up in an emotionally unavailable and rather unkind white family and she wanted to instill a sense of personal value in that child to arm the child's self-esteem against future damage by the cruel, uncaring mother.

I have been using this for inspiration as I found it to be quite wonderful, sadly, the person I am trying to protect my dd from is her own BPD self!

[theplotthickens]

Things with my SD15 have gotten a bit out of control in the last 6 months. There has been drug use, unprotected sex, self mutilation, lying, ditching classes, and sneaking out of the house in the middle of the night for hours. She has been seeing a Therapist, and recently DH and I sat down with her alone. We expressed our concern about the fact that SD does not seem to care about the consequences of any of her actions, so we aren't sure how to go about punishing her for the negative actions.

The T recommended that we make a list of House Rules, and the set consequences for breaking those rules. She says that doing this will allow SD to make a conscious choice as to whether or not the infraction is worth the repercussion. It seems like a great idea in theory, because you would assume that SD would know exactly what will happen when breaking a rule, and that she will hopefully realize that SHE is the only one responsible for the outcome.

Have any of you done this? If so, what kind of consequences did you set and did it help?

We have tried behavior modification and consequences/rewards since my BPDd17 (also bipolar, ODD, ADHD) was diagnosed with ADHD at age 7.  She never put the consequences with the behavior, but simply escalated.  Long consequences do nothing but make life miserable for everyone, so I suggest daily rewards for meeting expectations.

Better than behavior modification is the "RAINBOW" method outlined in "What Works for Bipolar Kids."   You can substitute "BPD" for "bipolar" with these recs.  

RAINBOW method:

R

Routine

Parenting bipolar children requires you to always pay attention to the importance of routine. Meals, activates and bedtimes should occur at approximately the same time every day. This helps children know what to expect and helps regulate their minds and bodies. Obviously, sometimes this is difficult to accomplish, parents need to just do the to the best they can.

A

Affect (Emotional) Regulation

Essentially this means every day children parents need to monitor and predict their child’s mood. Hopefully parents can also teach their child how to learn to do this for his or herself. When a parent knows their child is excited or agitated, they can focus on balancing that with a calm tone of voice and approach to the situation. When a child become agitated, it is crucial that the parent stay calm.

I

“ I Can Do It”

Children need to feel they have the opportunity to be successful. Parenting a child how is bipolar requires that a parent convey to their child that they have faith that together they will get control of this disorder. Parents need to overdo positive reinforcement. Children need to feel motivated and positive about their ability to solve problems and handle difficult situations. Children need to understand that they may feel less able to handle difficult situations when they are depressed, but that is part of their mood disorder.

N

“No Negative Thoughts”

When parenting a bipolar child it is important for parents not to dwell on incidents after they have happened. Instead the focus is on reconnecting with their child. Process your feelings with them about an incident and allow them to process feelings with you. Focus on positive thinking and facing a new day.

B

“Be a Good Friend”

Essentially this means it is very important to foster peer relationships for your children and to help them learn the skills necessary for building and maintaining friendships. Bipolar disorder parenting should emphasize this priority.

O

"Oh , How can We Solve This?"

Parents need to have a positive optimistic attitude that conveys to a child that there is a solution. Problem solving should always occur during calm phases, children are unable to solve problems when they are raging or otherwise in an agitated state. This step in the parenting philosophy can often best be implemented through pep talks or role plays.

W

"Ways to get Support"

Children need to be reminded that they are loved and cared for by many people. A parent can help them to understand who cares for them and who they can go to support for in the different settings they may be in.

**************************

I know it isn't exactly what you asked for, but we have found behavior contracts counter-productive.  Behavior modification is especially unhelpful, as it triggers her.  Our expectations are that 1) She respects herself  2) She respects us and 3) Respects our property.  If she breaks one of those, I will do something.   It may be a fine, it may be loss of the privilege of getting rides.    I focus on something that I can do, rather than trying to get her to complete some sort of punishment that will only escalate her.  

Respecting herself and others will earn her freedom, trust, use of phone, ability to visit friends, media privileges, rides, outings, etc.

We have gotten away from a contract, because we have a  lot of instability from her bipolar disorder, and at times giving consequences is not helpful.  RAINBOW has helped us the most of anything we have tried.  There is no prescriptive behavior contract that has worked for us.  I am following for ideas!

[mimis]

Hope Angel

My uBPDD is the same age as your D. age 22. tonight we had another very unpleasant incident.  We had our usual family sunday dinner. she made a comment which was really funny and her Dad said something in response and she told her Dad that it  hurt her feelings.  I tried to defend her father because it really was made jokingly while trying to validate her feelings.  she  went on a rage.  She started calling me a F**n C**t . I told her that I did not appreciate being called that and of course she tried to rationalize her behavior.  She said she had an awful day and was in a lot of pain. I told her that this did not give her right to be rude.  The awful things she said to me cut me to bone and made me cry.  This angered her more.  I couldn't take any more and could not bottle it up inside. She has no insight to her behavior at all. It is always everyone else's fault.  I told her that I really missed my old daughter .   Her behavior changed dramatically to what is now last fall , and that we find it so difficult around her as we are always having to be careful of what we say to her. I actually told her that we walk on eggshells around her.  She got very upset, told us not to go to any of her appointments with her  and left.  The appointments are with her Dr's , her pain specialist and other doctors.  shortly after, My DH and I got cancellation notices on our calendar cancelling our invitations to her appointments.  Then   hour later she texted me "sorry" I did not reply.  I am exhausted of the apologies all the time.  I wanted to text her back, " stop saying sorry, instead stop doing things that you need to apologize for"  but I didn't as I did not want to get sucked back into the fight.  half hour later as expected, she texted me again, saying, " you may never get your old daughter back. I know my family is mad at me and I will leave you all alone.  Have a good week"

So my friends,  What should be my next step? accept her apology? How do I communicate to her that we are at our limits? Advice Please?

[theplotthickens]

mimi, I have been abused and called many names, but my dd17 does not apologize.  She refuses to apologize for calling me horrible names and doing mean things to hurt me.  I wonder if your dd at least has some insight and you could hold on to that? 

I know that without a behavior change, apologies seem meaningless, but they at least show that she has insight into how her behavior affects others.  It also shows she is taking some measure of responsibility, even if she is not able or willing to change at this point.

Do you think your daughter is well enough to change these rages and fits?  She does not sound well.  Can you find it in your heart to generate compassion on just how miserable she must feel being emotionally out of control?  I think you hold boundaries and forgive her at the same time.  I struggle with unforgiveness so much, because my dd does the same mean things over and over and refuses to take responsibility.   Unforgiveness and anger does not agree with my sense of well-being, and so I am praying and working on letting it go.

This is SO not what I pictured for my dd and I. 

[mimis]

Thank you the plotthickens for your reply.  I understand how you feel. My DD is always calling me names.  Last night wasn't the worse name she called me. There have been others. And yes my DD does apologize for calling me names but she is not sincere. She normally does not mean it. In past she says she always has to apologize as we always blame her even when its not her fault. In past she says she apologizes other wise we don't talk to her. So really I don't think her apologies mean much as in her mind she didn't cause the argument, we hurt her feelings so she was justified to mean and to scream at us. That is the hard part for me to accept. I can accept but I know the next fight she will bring it all out (she holds major grudges) and tell us all the wrong doings that has been done to her.  She is like this with her friends too. At least the ones she has left which aren't many. She says her friends don't like her either. We so badly want to tell her that her behavior needs to change but we know we can't.

I like you struggle with unforgiveness as my DD keeps repeating the offences too. I find letting go is the hard, last week I attended 3 alanon meetings. I find they help a bit in dealing with it all.  I worry so much for the future for my daughter.  How will she ever find the joy she is hoping to get ? she wants a loving husband, a family.  I just can't see this happening right now.

[jellibeans]

Celisara

I just wanted to check in with you to see how things were going? Have you had any thought on how to proceed?

[theplotthickens]

Mimi,

My dd burns bridges everywhere she goes... . she torches them!  I think that she can only keep up the facade of being "normal" and "nice" for so long before she reveals all the emptiness and negativity that is her reality.  

My 17 yo has one good friend and has her very first REAL boyfriend.  We have strict, old-fashioned boundaries with dating, and so far she has accepted them.  I find that her friends group is the biggest thing, because she easily takes on behavior of others and imitates them to a "T."  

It is normal to a degree, but she imitates them to an extreme, as she doesn't really know who SHE is.

I am trying not to think about what will happen when the friends stops calling and when the bf breaks up with her.  I am enjoying the peace right now, and trying to live in the moment!  She was crying the other night because she is worried that this boy "listens to his parents and enjoys going to church" and she feels like she really can't be 'herself' ('bad' girl, druggie girl, disrespectful girl). This boy has strong morals and is very clean-cut.  It is amusing in a way to see the effects of positive peer pressure; I have seen so much of the other.  I almost feel guilt as I am  complicit in fooling this boy, because my dd is not the girl she is presenting at the moment.  I am telling myself that it is not my job and that this relationsihp will take it's course.  Maybe she will make better choices and become a better, more mature person by faking her way for a while!  

At any rate, it is better than when she was hanging with thugs and sneaking them into my house.  :D

[Celisara]

Thank you so much for all the responses! I'm sorry I haven't responded. Things got really hectic since my last post. I had family in town for my birthday in June, then we have been camping and attending family functions pretty much every weekend. It is hard for me to find a time to get on here, as I usually have to do it at work. DH doesn't know that I am using this site and I fear that him seeing me on it might make him upset. He is still under the impression that the things going on with my SD are just normal teenage girl behavior.

Jelli- I actually did put SD on Birth control. At one point a few months ago, she read me a note that she had written to DH. It basically stated how sad she is and how she feels like no one loves her. She wrote things in the letter about wanting to die. DH was out of town, so I immediately e-mailed her T. The T told me to get her to the Dr. and have her evaluated for depression. So, I did and they prescribed Welbutrin. That same week, I took her to the Dr. and got her scheduled to get norplant put in her arm (I do not trust her to take a pill every day). I expressed to her that sex is a normal part of life, and it's not something to be ashamed of, but that it is something that can have very big consequences in your life if you are not careful. I told her a story about my sister, who got HPV and did not know it for years. She ended up getting cervical cancer because it went untreated and was told at the age of 20 that she may never be able to have kids. I told her that even though she is on birth control now, she still needs to be using condoms to protect herself from STDs, and that BC is not 100%.

SD does respond much better to positive reinforcement rather than punishment. DH and I are working on this. It can be hard when she doesn't seem to do anything positive most days, but even if it is something simple like doing a chore without being asked, I am making sure I tell her I appreciate it.

We had another incident two weeks ago. SD was at her BM's house babysitting her 7 year old brother while BM was at work. DH got a bad feeling about things so around 11 he drove over there to check on her. Long story short, DH caught SD(who is 15 and only has her driving permit) driving BM's car with other kids in the car, while her brother was left at the house alone. When DH confronted her about it, she simply said "Nothing bad happened, everything was fine." Yet again, she is un willing(or unable) to admit fault.

So, in one night she broke the law by driving without a license, and endangered a child by leaving her brother at home unattended. It seems to be getting steadily worse.

SD has said that she is tired of always getting in trouble for "screwing up". I know that she is unhappy, and that she doesn't want life to be like this.

DH and I have decided that we just have to do our best to keep her with us or with people who we know and trust. The more we can limit her exposure to outside influences, the less likely she will be out there making horrible choices.

We are also trying to spend more time together as a family doing activities that we all love. We have been going camping a lot, and SD seems to be a lot more at peace when we do. I know that she has some abandonment issues buried deep down regarding her BM, so I think that us showing her that we are here for her is the most important thing we can do for her.

Theplot- I love the Rainbow Method! we will definitely give that a try!

Thank you so much for the guidance!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders