Do BPD people ever actively take genuine steps to make ammends?

[Xstaticaddict]

I've been listening to a lot of videos online from people who say they have BPD and i hear a lot about how their emotional dysregulation makes them do horrible things that they regret and then feel bad about which leads to self harm and acting out, but does it ever occur to them (would love to hear from pwBPD who have gone through DBT) that there are "normal" things that people do when they screw up to make relationships better. Is this too much to hope for that at some point they actually take responsibility for the chaos they create?

It feels like the best that can be hoped for even with years of therapy is that eventually you'll have a selfish fragile person who doesn't freak out as often. Am i way off in this thinking?

[arjay]

You might want to ask some of those that have actually salvaged their marriages, that included both being in counseling and the BPD suffer doing CBT and other behavioral treatments.

Additionally there is post by Dragon in the other boards who has been through the process and is curious how "nons' think.  She acknowledges that some emotions just don't exist for her.  Interesting person.  I have known her on this site for several years.

My experience with my dBPDxw was "no".  There was no apology and no "cleaning up her messes", though at times she did "try".  I just don't think she knew how in part.

Hope this helps

Peace

[Xstaticaddict]

Thanks Arjay.

Hearing so many consistent examples of how things rarely change for the better is helping me let go of a lot. It's all more of a curiosity leading to making sure I'm healthy at this point as even if it were possible to "cure" them I don't think i'd be up for the challenge. You finding anyone healthy to be with or talk to about this stuff in your real world?

[mitti]

Hi Xstaticaddict,

My uBPDxbf did actually do a lot to better himself and has been on his knees begging my forgiveness at one time but then again, he cycled back into push and I just couldn't take that one more time so although we worked hard in T for a whole year and he was making a lot of progress we broke up anyway, now over a year ago.

I stayed with the T for a while after we separated and I asked her if she felt he was sincere in his attempts to get better and she told me she felt that not only did he try very hard but that he did change but just not fast enough for me. By the time we started CT we had already a 3-year r/s of BPD craziness. So he did accept that he had caused the chaos. Making it all up to me with the necessary changes was a slow process, really slow, but I guess he did really try.

[Alex86]

Hey there,

I have been reading a lot about BPD and have an uBPDexgf.

I agree with arjay and I believe the answer is no.

One way: they feel guilty after all the mess. But they also feel

so powerless thinking that they cannot turn the relationship back to

the "happy" mode.

Second way: at first they might say "I'm sorry". But after a while

this is turned against you in many ways such as projection and blaming for

unrelated things. 

In both ways, in the end, they feel overwhelmed by feelings of low esteem,

unworthiness, shame and emptiness pushing you away.

[Xstaticaddict]

Mitti thank you, I never thought i'd get to the point in life where i was saving up for therapy, but after the dis-ease of the last 6 years with someone i'm now sure is BPD/HPD it really feels like it's necessary to figure out why i ended up with someone like that for so long.

Would you mind telling me what kind of stuff you worked on with your therapist after it was clear you weren't going to keep working on the relationship? I have no experience with therapy and until 6 month ago it had been basically a family value not to ask for help, so this is about as uncomfortable as i've ever been in my life as i try to figure out what to do next.

Alex86 thanks for your perspective as well, it made me remember how she would still somehow make it so she was a victim while she was saying she was sorry for something she did. So much pain in this growth process for everyone involved.

Much love.

[MissyM]

My dBPDh is a recovering addict and part of his recovery is making amends.  He is working on something right now that is called emotional restitution, towards me.  His therapists thinks this will take a little more time.  My dBPDh has been in therapy for years but wasn't diagnosed with BPD until this January.  We have added in DBT, so the combination of all the therapies and 12 step seems to be helping.  I have a very good friend that is a mostly recovered dBPD (and addict) and she makes amends/apologies quite sincerely and often.  She says it took her a good 10 years of working on herself to get better.  I think BPDs can get better but it requires a huge amount of work, they have to be willing to do the work.

[Xstaticaddict]

Thanks Missy. Thank you for sharing with me, it says a lot about your endurance sticking it out with your husband considering how hard it must have been to have spent so much time working things out throughout the relationship especially before the diagnosis. I often thought while in my relationship that my BPDxgf was in my life to teach me patience because she had kids and i learned a lot about responsibility through helping them grow up. I figured enduring her crazy making was some kind of penance for all the selfishness and impulsiveness of my youth and all the pain and frustration i caused to others. I realize now she was a wake up call and an invitation to a much deeper patience of not trying to fix or control anyone but myself. Finding a deeper connection to mindfulness through coping with the breakup has been amazing but made me so much more aware of the constant struggle of making good choices in every moment. Through that personal realization of how big the struggle feels, my anger and frustration for the way she abruptly split on me without opportunity to work things out is dipping into compassion and empathy for how difficult it must be to not really have a mechanism to even look at herself in a way that she could be in a position to start recovery. Although i don't drink or do drugs i realize i have so many addictive behaviors and habits that are subtly self sabotaging, and maybe that recklessness acts like a homing beacon for others with similar unhealthy lifestyles. I feel like a damage magnet and i really need that to change, obviously from within since i'm the one pursuing them, desperate for the intense infatuation that BPDgirls are so good at giving at times. Thanks for listening to my stuff. This is so difficult. I thought I was normal and ok, but the more i read and realize where all this bad behavior comes from and how easy it is for it to become part of a toxic way of living, add addiction, and co-dependancy, the struggle to become healthy in body and career, building self esteem at 37years old as if i was back to being a teenager, and I was the "Non" in the relationship... . maybe not.

Thank you so much for sharing your lives with me and everyone on this forum. It's like being able to look in on a deadly virus from thousands of different angles to see how it works and somehow understanding the order to the chaos does help a lot. I'm still miserable but way less confused about why.

[mitti]

Would you mind telling me what kind of stuff you worked on with your therapist after it was clear you weren't going to keep working on the relationship? I have no experience with therapy and until 6 month ago it had been basically a family value not to ask for help, so this is about as uncomfortable as i've ever been in my life as i try to figure out what to do next.

Hi Xstaticaddict, I know where you are coming from because I also come from a background where it was "pull yourself together" when you had an emotional response to anything. I became very avoidant as a result.

Our/my T is actually specializes in DBT and SchemaT which I had wanted especially when looking for T for us as I was certain he had BPD or at least traits, so that was very good for both of us because she was extremely validating. With me the T used schemaT where the focus was supposed to be to work on problems from FOO, emotional neglect and a feeling of having to achieve to receive acceptance, to counter my codependent tendencies. But because I had developed PTSD during our r/s and a specific situation with my uBPDxbf I always ended up discussing this particular problem. We tried some PTSD treatment too but that didn't work so well as I was still in the situation that was very triggering for me - this was connected to a 3rd person and so not only to do with my x. I did find it tremendously helpful to be able to discuss our CT and BPD with the T after we had broken up but it was also sad because she could then tell me things there had never been an opportunity for when we both were there. Had I, for instance, known how hard he tried I might have given it longer. In the end I stopped going because I couldn't handle the pain of remembering every week and I desperately needed to feel better.

[MissyM]

Thanks, Xstaticaddict.  I find recovery for my own codependency issues to be so helpful.  Then I added EMDR for my trauma issues, this really accelerated my healing.  You sound like you are on the right path.

[goingtostopthis]

I have been in a long distance relationship with my BPD and we had a major blow out in January of this year. Ever since then things gradually got better, but they did because of the tremendous conscious effort I put into it. To this day he still doesnt see that he was cause of the horrific split he put us through. He uses it now I believe as a control mechanism to try and make me believe that was the only one who had the problem and because of this I have been on trial to him somehow. To me this is so arrogant of him ,Im not sure I want to be in the relationship anymore.     Just recently he said he needs to step back from me(in relationship to what happened 5 months ago) as a reason for breaking a skype date we had made.  I was dissapointed and unhappy about it because it was more important for him to take a bath then it was to spend time with me ,when it was obvious I was really looking forward to it.   PLus he used this old fight as an excuse  for not wanting to, when I had done nothing wrong.  Of course it really hurt my feelings and there he is acting like I should just take that in like it were nothing. 

                  It's like they unable to exstend themselves in a loving way once in a while when it's really important, ever!   Now, if I were to express this to him, I know Id be dead. He'd proabably try to split on me again because what he does that he doesnt want to see, is to not resolves an issue but to keep it going and going and going, by provoking me with cruel mean statements until there is no turning back.  This is what he did before and quick frankly I think he enjoyed it. 

               

[Blimblam]

Ive seen it once and it took a heavy dose of lsd for her to confront that part of herself.

when confronted on those issues there is a genuine lack of understanding they just do not get it even when they are not being defensive. Its like explaining things to a 3 year old, they just do not have the ability to comprehend.  I remember I once asked if she remembered the scene in shrek where he explains hes like and onion because he has layers.  She couldn't even understand that.  9 year olds understand that!

[Johnny Alias]

Ive seen it once and it took a heavy dose of lsd for her to confront that part of herself.

when confronted on those issues there is a genuine lack of understanding they just do not get it even when they are not being defensive. Its like explaining things to a 3 year old, they just do not have the ability to comprehend.  I remember I once asked if she remembered the scene in shrek where he explains hes like and onion because he has layers.  She couldn't even understand that.  9 year olds understand that!

Have to agree with a lot of that.  Just because a person says "Yes" and nods their head does NOT mean they understand.  They can fake it a lot and often impersonate what other people do in these situations but it isn't real much of the time.  Truly a case of arrested development that 99% of the time cannot be fixed or even tempered.  

Part of it too is the narcissim which is shared by all cluster b's.  The idea that they are perfect, godlike, and beyond mistakes is a necessary shield to their low self-esteem.  So many I've known had such an inflated sense of self despite the fact that they live off of other people and have hobby jobs with no real income like photography or makeup.  They were literally in debt to their eyeballs and constantly relied on other people to clean up their messes and BS.  

If you're narcissitic you can do no wrong and anything at fault in your life is due to someone else's betrayl, stupidity, or maliciousness.  Convenient way not to take responsibility for anything huh?  The few times I received an apology were so they wouldn't lose me as a source of supply.  And then I got half assed attempts at change or reconciliation.  Oftentimes they'll only do things like see a therapist and make life changes to appease you so you won't leave, but believe me they don't want to... . AT ALL.  And they will resent you for wanting that apology or that change in behavior.  

Why should you want me to change if I'm perfect?  Its not a big deal that I lied, raged, stole, cheated... . I'm allowed to do that... . because I'm special.  And if you don't think I'm special anymore I'll go find someone else who thinks I'm special and perfect.  

BOOM... . replaced.  Have a nice day... . and you didn't even get a lousy t-shirt after your heart's been ripped out, possibly lost your kids, your money, your house, your reputation, your freedom, and in some REALLY bad cases... . your life.  

I don't say these things out of anger anymore, but I'll never go back to that land of confusion.  

[Dutched]

I agree from experience with arjay and Johnny Alias although it depends on the spectrum in which one “operates”.

It is extremely difficult for a BPD to take responsibility for their actions (in personal relationship with a SO in particular).

Before I figured really out of what was going on, I choose Gestalt therapy (in which feelings and perception are important) as couples therapy . Helped to sort out some minor daily issues.

Later, Exw went to a Gestalt therapist by herself. She always came home broken, never wanted to tell about it. after a visit. Lasted for 1 yr. up to the point the T announced not to be able to help her any further.

Behaviour during that individual T improved in a way.

As a consequence, our family doctor strongly advised her to see a Psychiatrist after listening to her story AND mine (based on my dairies which he received upfront that appointment ...   ).

All complete shock for her! As Johnny Alias wrote why to change if I am perfect?  Why, she is Almighty as I supposedly was the “crazy”one. More as she was/is extremely high functioning, she refused to go! 

Not for herself, not for the stability of the family, consequences, etc.

Now, several years out of the r/s, all understandable, her core was deeply hit, she didn’t have the capacity to confront herself. 

Since I changed interaction with ex (reading, learing and using the techniques), matters calmed down a lot, outbursts minimized to once a year.

I had to do it as a BPD can’t take the responsibility, the fear of being a failure (again, with their on average very low self esteem).

But tears later, indeed BOOM,  over! Leaving 3 others devastated behind.

Years ago there was an active member named LIVIA, she wrote:

"They take with no conscience, and leave with no remorse as an emotional 4 year old” -Livia

[Dutched]

Hey there,

I have been reading a lot about BPD and have an uBPDexgf.

I agree with arjay and I believe the answer is no.

One way: they feel guilty after all the mess. But they also feel

so powerless thinking that they cannot turn the relationship back to

the "happy" mode.

Second way: at first they might say "I'm sorry". But after a while

this is turned against you in many ways such as projection and blaming for

unrelated things. 

In both ways, in the end, they feel overwhelmed by feelings of low esteem,

unworthiness, shame and emptiness pushing you away.

Not to offend you, just to see the perspective

A BPD does not feel guilt in that stage, they feel shame.

Shame is the 1st and most primitive reaction of us all (you can’t control if you blush or not)

Guilt is a higher level of awareness. It means being able to self reflect ones behaviour and change it. 

Shame = I am wrong and hurts our self image

Guilt = I did something wrong and have the capacity to do something about it, to change.

Related to our experiences, most of never received a “sorry” for our SO’s behaviour.

That hurts and leaves us wandering around and around.

They were experiencing intense shame…

[Xstaticaddict]

Not to offend you, just to see the perspective

A BPD does not feel guilt in that stage, they feel shame.

Shame is the 1st and most primitive reaction of us all (you can’t control if you blush or not)

Guilt is a higher level of awareness. It means being able to self reflect ones behaviour and change it. 

Shame = I am wrong and hurts our self image

Guilt = I did something wrong and have the capacity to do something about it, to change.

Related to our experiences, most of never received a “sorry” for our SO’s behaviour.

That hurts and leaves us wandering around and around.

They were experiencing intense shame…

A subtle but important difference, great point Dutched. P.S. the footer statement on your post is amazing. Did you write that?

[Dutched]

A subtle but important difference, great point Dutched. P.S. the footer statement on your post is amazing. Did you write that? [/quote]
Actually I used part of the original poem by Mary Oliver.

I Googled it again, it is in Mary Oliver's book Thirst.

Original text:

Someone I loved once gave me

a box full of darkness.

It took me years to understand


that this, too, was a gift. <Mary Oliver>

[earthgirl]

My H often expresses remorse and apologizes for inappropriate behavior.  But what I sense is that while he's ashamed, what he really feels is not remorse that he's hurt me, but fear about the consequences of his behavior, i.e., his unease that I might leave, and his apologies end up taking the form of needing reassurance.  He will say things like, "Why do you love me,"  "Why do you stay with me," "I'm crazy," "You deserve peace," etc.  I came to realize that my expected part in this was to tell him how much I loved him and the reasons why, reassure him that he's not crazy, etc. etc.  I'm learning not to do that, and to validate him through other means.

This "remorse" phase can be every bit as exhausting as the dysregulation that preceeded it.  Even moreso, because by this point, I am completely drained, and I just want to get away from all of it.

[Xstaticaddict]

This "remorse" phase can be every bit as exhausting as the dysregulation that preceeded it.  Even moreso, because by this point, I am completely drained, and I just want to get away from all of it.

I can so identify with this. By the last year of our relationship anytime she'd apologize for anything i'd just gotten to the point of telling her that i never wanted to hear her say "I'm sorry" again because it meant nothing. If she truly felt anything for the things she kept repeating over and over she'd look at it and figure out how to make it important enough to change the behaviors. But that would require introspection and a psyche that allowed her to acknowledge an imperfection in her. Exhausting is such a perfect description for the feeling I had being in relationship with her... . but a forever tense exhaustion.

[kfifd196]

In the VERY beginning, my then girlfriend, made apologies and amends to me, probably as a part of the idealization phase.  The more rages occurred and other symptoms, the less and less she apologized and spun it on me as if I WAS THE PROBLEM.  I actually started to get brainwashed and believe it.  Now, totally painted black and in Divorce Court, she has a vile hatred for me, that I don't understand, as I honestly didn't do anything different than any other married couple does.  She's acting as if I cheated on her and she caught me in bed with someone close to her!  (PS- That was JUST an example I pulled out of the air)  I am the most loyal loving guy she could have hoped to meet, that would love her unconditionally and NEVER even flirt with anyone else, but she has SEVERE trust issues, abandonment issues and more (she admitted it in several letters, emails, cards, texts, and even her wedding vows to me!).  Yet, she blames me now and there is no apology in sight!  I am living a nightmare, with the woman I would do anything for, but she just doesn't see it that way.  If I TRY to talk to her about it, she threatens me with a Restraining order.  I don't even recognize her anymore... . She is not the woman I met or the woman I was married to.  She is an EVIL, LYING, DEVALUING HORRIBLE PERSON!  I just wish there was something I could do and everyday, hope she will paint me white and apologize! 

Her father died when she was 7, of a heroin OD.  He treated her like crap, abandone her, etc.  (don't know if there was sexual abuse).  Now, she and I have a daughter and all she ever said was that she wanted our daughter to have the life she didn't have.  YET, she is doing everything opposite that.  As I analyze it, MY BELIEF is that she is "Recreating HER Past" and trying to correct it.  She is taking out all of the anger she had for her father and past Boyfriends on me and pushing me away, while raising our daughter, because her mother was never there for HER... . She told me straight up, that once our daughter was born, she wasn't going to work anymore, to stay home and be with her, since her mother wasn't there for her.  Makes sense right?  My wife was pregnant a few years ago with another BF, who convinced her to get an abortion, so they could travel, etc.  He abandoned her WHILE SHE WAS STILL IN THE HOSPITAL... . It devestated her.  I feel she is taking all of this out on me, yet she hasn't apologized and she is destroying a really great guy, that would have NEVER abandoned her... . I still haven't despite all she's putting me through... . Pray for Amends... .

[OutOfEgypt]

Frighteningly accurate:

One way: they feel guilty after all the mess. But they also feel

so powerless thinking that they cannot turn the relationship back to

the "happy" mode.

Second way: at first they might say "I'm sorry". But after a while

this is turned against you in many ways such as projection and blaming for

unrelated things. 

[Lights843]

I don't see how my ex's narcissism, arrogance, and lack of accountability could ever allow her to make amends with me. I would love it if she did so but it's been two and a half years and I never got any sort of acknowledgement about what's happened. I know she feels a tremendous amount of shame so maybe that's stopping her from apologizing. I can't hold my breath.