and we all fall down

[tristesse]

So  dis_heartened after Today. BPDD30 had a crazy bad rage. I reacted

Without thought, and did not use techniques, all hell broke loose. I'm still so new to this, but really have been trying. I had been so pleased with what I perceived as steps in the right direction, but feel so list right now. How do I pick up that  pieces and start again?  I still believe she can get better, even after all these years, I'm just not sure I'm the one to help her. She went bat sh** crazy today, and her 5 year old son witnessed the entire ordeal, not only did he witness it, but he acted out and was hollering and hitting people... . he was out of control completely, and i felt so bad for him. Poor baby is so confused, and she refuses to accept any responsability for his behavior. I need advice, I'm so defeated right now.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

Sadly bp514etersen this wil not be the only time your dd falls down... . there is sometimes a cycle that just seems to happen. What I have really tried to do and not get too excited about when things go well and try not to get too down when ___ hits the fan. Accept the fact you are not prefect and not every encounter with your dd is going to go great.

I think it is good to go back and look at what happen and try to learn from the mistakes... . take a do over and try to come up with alternative ways to deal with the problem. Also to go back to your dd and acknowledge that you were sorry for what ever part you had to play in the disagreement if there were any. I think that models good behavior to her and shows her how to make amends. Often that is the hardest part of the problem for pwBPD... . their inability to admit fault.

Things with my dd have improved and we can go long periods without a meltdown... . but when the meltdown does come it is hard not to take it as a set back... . I try not to do that... . this is a quote that helps me... . one bad day does not equal and bad life Don't beat yourself up over this... . put it behnid you as fast as you can... . and move on. Learn from it and forgive yourself and forgive your dd.

As far as her son in concerned... . it might be good to try and make a rule that you not discuss things in front of him... . try to sheild the kids from seeing and being involved when they are too young to understand.

Take care of yourself... . rest and heal... . and be kind to yourself too... . you are a good mom and you are doing the best you can.

[tristesse]

Thank you jellibeans, you are very kind and very informative.

My part in the entire mess,is simple, I went into prepared for battle and that is what I got. When she asked to speak with me privately, I immediately braced for the hail storm. First of all, that is a knee jerk reaction to far too many years of bad communication and my untrained mind.secondly, I was in the middle of something and did not want to be bothered... . this true and honest. I could have gone in and listened and validated. I was UN prepared to hear her and how she felt. I have apologized, but she is unforgiving at the moment. I did try to suggest that we protect the Gs from witnessing any fallout, but she told me to mind my own business. Touche'... . I will continue onward, and try not to let this minor set back rule the day. I still believe in her ability to recover and will never give up, even when we stumble and fall.

[tristesse]

let me give some specifics to yesterdays events, so maybe I can be given some insight, and be able to better deal with my dd and my own shortcomings.

We had a large project to undertake in the morning, dh,ds nBPDd, myself and a friend were moving our deck, literally picking it up and moving it from one location to another, BPDd was asked to participate, or lend a hand, but she declined to assist. nobody made an  issue of it, we just did what needed to be done. shortly after the task was complete we were all in the house getting a cold drink and just sitting around,( this was a very hard task ). I entered the kitchen where ds and his 8 mos. pregnant gf, their friend and my BPDd were all at. gf says to son, why don't you let your mom sit down, BPDd says what about me, gf says your mom is tired and it's respectful to offer your chair to her. BPDd says well im tired too ( this appeared to be light hearted banter ) at any rate I was busy and declined to sit, I was trying to prepare lunch etc., a few moments passed when BPDd summoned me to her room so she could speak with me in private. I went( albeit reluctantly )and she informed me that she was pi***D off. she felt like I was taking the side of gf because I didn't jump in and defend her. She wanted to know why I always take somebody else's side and make her feel like sh^^. I started off by telling her that I didn't choose a side, I thought it was all very playful. (I did not acknowledge how she felt at all), and as you can imagine, it was the beginning of the blow up. I was immediately on edge, and ready for a fight, after I realized where I screwed up, I tried to back up and validate etc, but it was far too late for that. after an hour of the tirade and being physically abused by a 5 year old, hitting me with fists and toys etc. I left the house. Of course the frantic texting and calling started. I knew when I left the house that it was going set her into a total frenzy, and that she was going to panic, and honestly at that moment I didn't care, I just wanted to be away from the madness. During her rage she was clawing her face and arms, and she was pulling her hair, and tearing her clothes. she punched a wall and tossed a table, my dh reacted in anger and I not only had to deflect blows from a 5 year old, mental blows from BPDd, I had to protect her from her dads outburst. he was angry and yelling at her, and I had o make him sit down and shut up more than once in that hour. So after 60 harrowing minutes I fled the house to save my sanity. Upon returning 3 hours later, things were calmer, but BPDd is not forgiving. I know I handled it wrong from the beginning, and I know she is jealous of the gf, but how am I supposed to stop and validate when her behavior is so juvenile, and the gf was right in this situation, so it makes it doubly hard. Yes I get that she was hurt, and that she was upset, but what did she really want from me? Somebody please lend me some advice.

[peaceplease]

bp514etersen,

Do not be so hard on yourself.  It happens.  There are times that I forget to use my validation tools, and I react in the moment.  I think they call it being human.   I know when I am overtired, or overwhelmed with many things going on at once, I tend to let validation skills go out the window.

And, my dh (step-dad to my dd) is always adding fuel to the fire.  In fact, there are many times where those two are arguing.  And, my dd accuses me of taking sides, or it will be my dh accusing me of taking her side.    He has some BPD traits, himself.  I can't say that it is BPD, but he definitely has his issues.  He can cool down in a bit, and realize he should not have reacted the way he did.  My dd can rarely do that.

My dd is usually receptive to a delayed validation.  If I go back and apologize and validate what she was feeling.  And, at times, I even get a thank you for it. 

I know it is really,  difficult when our grandchildren witness the arguing.  The best we can do is distract and remove them if possible.  I learned not to tell my dd to think of my gs when she is in rage. 

The key to validation is to validate their feelings.  It is not approving of what they are doing or saying.  I would say in this situation, you can apologize for the way she is feeling.  "I am sorry that you were hurt that I did not defend you.  I did not mean to hurt you.  You are my daughter, and I love you."  Your dd is probably feeling that you are abandoning her by not defending her.  She may be feeling that  you are "her mother."  No matter what she expects you to "side" with her.  I know that my dd always feels like this.(jealousy)  My dd is jealous of my dh at times.  Also, of time I spend caring for my mother.  She feels that she is robbed of my time and attention.  I know that it seems crazy at times but they are her feelings.  It is not saying that she is right, but that I can let her know that I understand what she is feeling. 

I totally get the mass confusion like your dh getting angry.  It really complicates situation.  I know that I experience that a lot with my dh. 

Please be kind to yourself.  You are a caring mom, or you would not be here.

peaceplease

[jellibeans]

bp514etersen

When I read what happened I can see how her brother and his gf are really what is bothering her. This constant sibling rivalry... . the competition. bp514etersen I feel you are making real effort to change how you interact with your dd... . BUT when you are in a room with others that are insensitive to her feels than there are going to be this kind of repeated conflict. What is the rest of your family prepared to do to help reduce the conflict with dd? The gf had no busy lighting the fire for this fight and she could have done better with her interact with dd. Just because she is right doesn't mean she can talk to dd like this and I do believe she could have had a better interaction with her. There seems to be an under tone of of resentment because she didn't help and she might have had some guilt for not helping.

It really doesn't matter why it happened... . next time how can this be handled differently. Having and aurgement go on for and hour is too long and ceratinly when there is physical interaction with a 5 year old... . I am not sure why it needed to go on this long... . everyone should have had a time out much sooner... . stop before thing escalate to this level. You leaving the house finally I think was a good decision because I doubt anyone would have stopped BUT your dd reaction to this was very harsh and telling. Her frustration and pain was pretty over the top. Showing deep hurts from the past still remain.

Don't beat yourself up over this... . like I said before these kind of set backs are common... . they will happen again but the better you get at the communication skills the less conflict there will be. I really think you need to get the rest of your family on board to these tools. I do agree with peaceplease... . going back and validating after the fact I think is an excellent way to move forward... . even if she says she doesn't forgive you... . it is not important for her to forgive... . it is more important for you to acknowledge your part in the conflict. I really see other on this board with the same issues when it comes to siblings... . that seems to be a real trigger for some and I would work on reducing the conflict by trying to educate your son and his gf.

How are you doing today? These kind of encounters can leave a person so weak and tired. Rest and recoup. Don't be hard on yourself. It hink things would have been totally different if it was just the two of you involved. You can't control others behavior... . you can only control yourself... . try to move forward.

[tristesse]

PeacePlease and jellibeans,

first I want to thank you both for the insight.

I have dissected and analyzed the entire event,

[tristesse]

hit the post button accidentally.

at any rate, I am able to accept responsibility for my part, and am willing to validate her feelings today. it's always worth a try.

I do agree that she was jealous of the gf, and that she felt I was taking gf side.

I had a conversation with the ds and gf this morning, I explained it all to them ( again ) and asked that they please try and understand that she can not help the behaviours and to please keep the comments to themselves. I do feel somewhat bad for the gf, she was only trying to be kind to me, when my dd jumped in with her request to be offered the seat. This was perceived as a joke by all, including me, so the banter that ensued was done jokingly( except for my dd was not playing ) I agree that the rage went on for far too long, and I really should have left sooner, but I knew by walking away from her she would feel abandoned and rejected, so I was trying to prevent that. I have had conversation with dh as well, and have asked him to be silent and let me deal with her unless and until he learns the skills. I made sure he understood that if I am in no physical danger, I do not need him to interject, he has said he would try. But has stated that it is hard to do when she is being obscene and belligerent. The ds and gf have agreed to try, but I am not sure the ds is really on board. I will have to discuss the issue with the gs, it is such a touchy subject for her, but he should not be subjected to her raging, ever. And then it is very confusing for him, how is he to determine what is appropriate behavior and what is not.  all in all, I think I know where it all went wrong and will try and mend the fence as much as I can when I get home from work. Thank you for pointing out some of the issues, it truly helps.

[tristesse]

Today is a better day by far. dd just called to tell me she has made her first DBT appointment. I am so proud of her, I know the road will be bumpy, and we are all bound to make mistakes, but hooray for her. BABY STEPS !

[jellibeans]

    such good news  

I really see this as a postitive step forward for your dd. Try not to get to excited and imagine great accomplishments but it is a start and it shows she is ready to work on herself.

[qcarolr]

bp514etersen

Do your D30 and gs live with you or do they live nearby? Sorry I am not familiar with your story yet.

My gd8 (nearly 9) lives with us. My BPDDD28 has lived with us in the past, along with the current bf, until the trauma to all of us became too much. Too much anger, often about gd being in our custody or our limits on her bf's being at the house.  I also am aware now that drug use fueled the intense level of raging in my DD.

I am often physically assaulted by my gd - hitting, scratching, kicking, throwing things. She is in therapy for the trauma she has experienced living in the chaos of our home. PTSD really. And she is being treated for ADHD - successfully with this part in many ways. Gd takes much of the 'fault' for the chaos on herself. This is common for young children. Especially when DD is yelling at me about how I am managing gd, in front of gd. She often starts out hitting herself, when I stop her from that she turns her overwhelm on me. If I can get her in a "safe hug", then sway with her, she does get calmed down.

There has been a lot of conflict for her when the two women she loves the most are angry with each other. She does not know what to do with all that emotion -- developmentally the words and thought processing are just becoming available to her in the past year or so. Reacting in a physical way is the only strategy that she had in the past. Fear is still a driving factor in her responses.

Having DD out of our home, things are better. As I am better able to keep my own composure - keep calm - then I am better able to help her to regain her self-control. I know that her greatest desire is to please us, and if she feels this is not happening then her anger is all over the place.

Maybe this is part of the dynamic with your gs.

My dh, the grandpa, is very like your dh. He loves me and can hardly tolerate the hurt that I am in. His instinctive response is to blame the child and respond based on that instinct. I can ask him to keep calm, stay out of it, or just leave the room. He makes things so much worse sometimes. He refuses to do therapy for himself or read the books, etc.   He does acknowledge that when I am able to use the tools, things do go better. Yet so often I am not able to use the tools when I too am in fear and overwhelmed.

There are some parenting resources that are helping me a lot in this with my gd. They might help you understand what is going on for you gs better. If you are interested you can send me a PM, or just reply here.

qcr

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[tristesse]

Carole, my dd and gs live in my home, this is after 2 years outside my home. I would love any information and materials you have to recommend.

Different from you, I do not have guardianship or custody of gs, so when dd is raging and he is present, she flips out if anybody touches or talks to gs. Those are the influences that worry me, but I don't thesaurus to escalate, so I try and soothe him by remaining calm and reassuring. Key word there, was try.

[qcarolr]

bp514etersen,

I have gained new ways to be a parent both with my DD28 and my gd8. Gd's therapist put me onto "Attachment Based Parenting", Daniel Hughes. She is in training to be certified as a trainer at our county mental health center in his P.A.C.E. model. I was fortunate to be able to attend a one day workshop with him last October when he came to spend a week training the mental health staff.

He has several books. The one that I have read a couple of times is "Brain-Based Parenting... . " The first half is the neuroscience behind our development. The last half is about applying the PACE model with the parents, then the parents can use these strategies and tools with their kids.

Here is a review of that book:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=195469.0

The other resource, that fits well with Dan Hughes training, is from Heather Forbes. You can find her at beyondconsequences.com  I have read several of her books. The one I refer to the most is ":)aring to Love". It gives a good overview of her love/fear based approach. I have also been to a one day workshop with her on her school focused book "Help for Billy... . "

Hope these resources are helpful for you.

qcr

[tristesse]

qcr, thank you for the link and the information, anything is helpful at this point.

I apologize for my random sentences  from the last response I made, I was using my tablet and the darn thing auto corrects everything. I hope you were able to make sense of what I was trying to say.

I totally appreciate any and all advice.

[qcarolr]

The hardest part for me is my DD28 not being able to use all these wonderful resources to have a relationship with gd8. She is so resistant to any kind of treatment and always has been from a young age.

Keep working on the tools here to improve your communication with your DD - things can get better. They have with my DD, though she can no longer be in our home since she refuses to keep her random drug using bf's away.

I will be keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.

qcr