Am I being naive again?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

After so many months of chaos, me learning (and succeeding) in my early steps of detachment, I finally decided to set up the ultimate boundary. 

Here's my story in case anyone's interested: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=225397.msg12432613#msg12432613

I met up with our daughter's g'dfather and he told me that my dBPDh had hooked up with the woman he had an affair with at one of his clubs yet again.  It's not the hooking up that bothers me as much as him saying he'd like to work things out with me, misses me, loves me, etc. while hooking up with her.  He keeps saying I'm his best friend and the only person he can actually talk to.  I'd expect a best friend to be honest though (I realize lying is part of the BPD criteria). 

Anyway, I called him up and told him I had found out about what was going on with the woman and that now, so that he could be with her and he would finally leave me alone, I'd file for divorce THIS week.  All of a sudden, he's finally willing to give up his clubs, look for an office job AND call the hospital to get himself a place for inhouse treatment (he's already doing T but feels that once a week sessions aren't enough for him).

He tried to explain why he had been hooking up with the woman.  He's moved out and he's lonely.  He just wanted to not be alone.  He supposedly doesn't even like her - he's tried talking to her about his condition but all she seems to care about is that she was able to hook up with the "Quizmaster".  My friend confirmed that she doesn't care about much else except that she gets validation through being "his" girlfriend.

Am I being naive not filing for divorce now?  He's been hurting me (though I believe that isn't his intention).  Should I really wait to see how things progress (and if they actually do)?

It's not that I have high hopes that we as a couple will still exist in a few years but I'd rather part on good terms, after his T has shown good effects because he finally realizes that he put me in place of a missing mother.  I love and care for him, he's the father of my lovely baby but watching him deteriorate like this is killing me!  But he NEEDS to know that his actions DO have consequences!  He can't be with her and say the things he says to me!

[NewMom]

After so many months of chaos, me learning (and succeeding) in my early steps of detachment, I finally decided to set up the ultimate boundary. 

Here's my story in case anyone's interested: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=225397.msg12432613#msg12432613

I met up with our daughter's g'dfather and he told me that my dBPDh had hooked up with the woman he had an affair with at one of his clubs yet again.  It's not the hooking up that bothers me as much as him saying he'd like to work things out with me, misses me, loves me, etc. while hooking up with her.  He keeps saying I'm his best friend and the only person he can actually talk to.  I'd expect a best friend to be honest though (I realize lying is part of the BPD criteria). 

Anyway, I called him up and told him I had found out about what was going on with the woman and that now, so that he could be with her and he would finally leave me alone, I'd file for divorce THIS week.  All of a sudden, he's finally willing to give up his clubs, look for an office job AND call the hospital to get himself a place for inhouse treatment (he's already doing T but feels that once a week sessions aren't enough for him).

He tried to explain why he had been hooking up with the woman.  He's moved out and he's lonely.  He just wanted to not be alone.  He supposedly doesn't even like her - he's tried talking to her about his condition but all she seems to care about is that she was able to hook up with the "Quizmaster".  My friend confirmed that she doesn't care about much else except that she gets validation through being "his" girlfriend.

Am I being naive not filing for divorce now?  He's been hurting me (though I believe that isn't his intention).  Should I really wait to see how things progress (and if they actually do)?

It's not that I have high hopes that we as a couple will still exist in a few years but I'd rather part on good terms, after his T has shown good effects because he finally realizes that he put me in place of a missing mother.  I love and care for him, he's the father of my lovely baby but watching him deteriorate like this is killing me!  But he NEEDS to know that his actions DO have consequences!  He can't be with her and say the things he says to me!

[OutOfEgypt]

Are you being naive?  I think you are having wishful thinking and your desperate and understandable hope in saving your marriage and family is clouding your judgment.  If you knew what you know about BPD and a best friend told you this story, what would you think?  To me, this is classic BPD.  When they are busted, truly busted (like "I'm leaving", they suddenly have a jailhouse confession and promise.  If that doesn't work in manipulating you and keeping the status quo, prepare for the hater to show his face.

My ex wife would have affairs.  With the final one during our marriage, after I let her 'come back' to me, she told me, "I never wanted to actually leave you.  I just wanted to [have sex with] him.  Pretty bad, huh?"  It's like she knew it was bad, but she still giggled about it like she was not talking about reality... . like it was something she read or saw in a movie.  It is likely the case with your husband.  He just wanted to have his cake and eat it to, and hold your head under the water while he does it... . with little empathy regarding what it is doing to you.

In my opinion (based on everything I went through with my ex), she was ready to move ahead with things (like a divorce) when it was what she wanted and on her terms.  However, when it was on my terms or if it looked like she was going to actually face consequences for her actions, she would do everything to stall me, paralyze me, guilt-trip me, seduce me, and play me into doing nothing.  She's okay with dumping, but not with being dumped.  It is based on needing to be in control.  We "almost divorced" twice before we actually went through with it.  And even then she promised therapy and wanted to reconcile with me after the divorce once she saw I was dating someone else.  

My ex wife STILL wants to know she can make me dance.  I took our girls on a day-trip on Saturday, and yesterday my ex came to pick up our girls for her week with them.  She threw out a little smile with a passive-aggressive, "No pictures, huh?"  It wasn't a sweet, "Hey, I don't get any pictures?"  It was one of her little accusations, her little bombs, to try to get me to dance and feel defensive or guilty.  You can feel the difference.  They seemingly come out of nowhere, when you least expect it.  I don't want to stress you out -I'm not encouraging some kind of hyper-vigilance- but we do need to remain aware in our interactions with them.  There is always an angle.  There is always a desire to either keep us hooked or know that they still have control, so we need to be aware of that.

[OutOfEgypt]

You also wrote:

I love and care for him, he's the father of my lovely baby but watching him deteriorate like this is killing me!  But he NEEDS to know that his actions DO have consequences!  He can't be with her and say the things he says to me!

Right.  Although I found it more helpful to think about what I need and what I need to be for my kids than to think about the consequences my wife needed.  These people, sadly, cannot be taught.  The "they need to face consequences" is moot.  It means nothing.  They will just conclude that you are a terrible person or something of that nature.  So, when we decide to finally cut it off, it has to be for *us* and our kids. 

[OutOfEgypt]

Some may disagree with this, but I think this is an apt word picture for our interaction with a BPD person.

Imagine the relationship like sitting down at a table and sharing a cup of coffee and conversation.

With a normal person, you come and sit down across from them at the emotional table with them as equals.  There may be some squirming and some difficulty, but if the relationship is healthy there will be mutual engagement at the table, mutual trust, mutual compassion, shared vulnerability, and shared "control".

When you sit down across the emotional table with a BPD person, you implicitly expect the things from a normal relationship.  In fact, you sorta wait for them.  You do your best to show up.  You even try to drag them to the table sometimes.  You sit there vulernably, you put your compassion on the table, your patience, and your trust.  But the BPD person never shows up, never sits across from the table with you.  It may look like they do for a moment, but really they utilize the fact that you are sitting at the table in order to control you and the relationship.  They lie, they manipulate all the things you put on the table (such as your patience and compassion), and the use your seated position as an opportunity to stand over you and whack you in the head repeatedly.  After all, you deserve it.  I'm not saying they are pathologically trying to be cruel (although I have seen behind the mask at my ex wife's disturbed sadistic side), but they do this in order to destroy the table and never sit there.  The table means death to them.  They won't ever do it.  So they need to wreck it.  They need to turn it into a power-play, a control device, a game.  And they expect that you will keep coming, sitting down, and playing the game with them.  It keeps you there... . wrapped up emotionally in them and whatever they are doing to you... . and they can keep throwing bombs and doing what they do, even blaming you for it.

What we need to do is stop sitting at the table.  We need to refuse the game.  We need to be aware of how they play and we need to be able to step back emotionally so that we are not so emotionally close to it that we remain a player in their game.  We need to write new rules for ourselves -our rules, not theirs- and we need to stick to them.  I picture myself standing up at the table with my hands out, like "stop -keep your distance."

[AimingforMastery]

^ Fabulous previous post.

Check this out:-

- my BPD gf calls me at 2am. I take the call as it's her. She wants to tell me her latest children's book. So I listen for about ten minutes and then thank her for sharing her writing, but I really must get back to sleep.

She signs off but later in the middle of the night leaves me distraught messages for me by text, skype and phone breaking up with me for my "unbelievable cruelty" in not letting her finish reading her book to me... .  

Wow?  

It sums up what you wrote about. How can I get in trouble for being nice to her? And that much trouble?

And this was after she told me she wanted to marry me and was being very loving a couple of hours before... .

Then she carried on as if it had never happened, relationship as usual. Until I brought it up today and asked  her not to dothi stype of thing any more - cue hater... . !

I am really very close to NC now.

[OutOfEgypt]

Hi AimingforMastery,

It's funny, because as I read your story and as I read that you put up a healthy boundary for yourself, "Thank you for sharing.  That was really, really great, but now I need to get back to sleep... . ", I had this "oh s#!t" feeling inside.  That part of me that is so used to walking on eggshells thought to myself, ":)ude... . that guy is gonna GET it."

Haha.  Funny, but NOT funny.  Been there.  I would sometimes get 20-30 messages in the middle of the night, going off on me.  I eventually just would shut my phone off and then read NONE of them.  When I let on that I wasn't reading them, that would piss her off even more.  I finally just told her, "I'm not going to hand you my head to whack at while you're going through a tantrum."  She didn't like that, but surprisingly she heard me (that time, at least).

They *do*, in general, tend to calm down after.  The question is if you want to live that way for the rest of your life... . AND have kids with that... . AND deal with all the other stuff, like the blaming, lying, projecting, tearing down of your self-esteem in order to control you, hating, isolation from others, and having a household that totally revolves all around them (and then being put down for that, like its your fault), constant drama, constant hatred of someone, constant demand to have the rules NOT apply to them, etc.  They are "special" after all (though, granted that part overlaps a bit with NPD, which I believe is concurrent in my ex wife along with BPD).  Oh yeah, and if you are lucky they don't cheat on you multiple times and act as though its because you aren't enough for their "needs".  I wasn't lucky.

This article is phenomenal for explaining how things progres in a relationship with them:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves

Strikingly accurate.

Good for you for addressing her behavior for what it is!

[AimingforMastery]

Hi AimingforMastery,

It's funny, because as I read your story and as I read that you put up a healthy boundary for yourself, "Thank you for sharing.  That was really, really great, but now I need to get back to sleep... . ", I had this "oh s#!t" feeling inside.  That part of me that is so used to walking on eggshells thought to myself, ":)ude... . that guy is gonna GET it."

Haha.  Funny, but NOT funny.  Been there.  I would sometimes get 20-30 messages in the middle of the night, going off on me.  I eventually just would shut my phone off and then read NONE of them.  When I let on that I wasn't reading them, that would piss her off even more.  I finally just told her, "I'm not going to hand you my head to whack at while you're going through a tantrum."  She didn't like that, but surprisingly she heard me (that time, at least).

They *do*, in general, tend to calm down after.  The question is if you want to live that way for the rest of your life... . AND have kids with that... . AND deal with all the other stuff, like the blaming, lying, projecting, tearing down of your self-esteem in order to control you, hating, isolation from others, and having a household that totally revolves all around them (and then being put down for that, like its your fault), constant drama, constant hatred of someone, constant demand to have the rules NOT apply to them, etc.  They are "special" after all (though, granted that part overlaps a bit with NPD, which I believe is concurrent in my ex wife along with BPD).  Oh yeah, and if you are lucky they don't cheat on you multiple times and act as though its because you aren't enough for their "needs".  I wasn't lucky.

This article is phenomenal for explaining how things progres in a relationship with them:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves

Strikingly accurate.

Good for you for addressing her behavior for what it is!

Yes, but I have not left yet.   #lunacyinthefaceoffacts

[AimingforMastery]

Hi AimingforMastery,

It's funny, because as I read your story and as I read that you put up a healthy boundary for yourself, "Thank you for sharing.  That was really, really great, but now I need to get back to sleep... . ", I had this "oh s#!t" feeling inside.  That part of me that is so used to walking on eggshells thought to myself, ":)ude... . that guy is gonna GET it."

Haha.  Funny, but NOT funny.  Been there.  I would sometimes get 20-30 messages in the middle of the night, going off on me.  I eventually just would shut my phone off and then read NONE of them.  When I let on that I wasn't reading them, that would piss her off even more.  I finally just told her, "I'm not going to hand you my head to whack at while you're going through a tantrum."  She didn't like that, but surprisingly she heard me (that time, at least).

They *do*, in general, tend to calm down after.  The question is if you want to live that way for the rest of your life... . AND have kids with that... . AND deal with all the other stuff, like the blaming, lying, projecting, tearing down of your self-esteem in order to control you, hating, isolation from others, and having a household that totally revolves all around them (and then being put down for that, like its your fault), constant drama, constant hatred of someone, constant demand to have the rules NOT apply to them, etc.  They are "special" after all (though, granted that part overlaps a bit with NPD, which I believe is concurrent in my ex wife along with BPD).  Oh yeah, and if you are lucky they don't cheat on you multiple times and act as though its because you aren't enough for their "needs".  I wasn't lucky.

This article is phenomenal for explaining how things progres in a relationship with them:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves

Strikingly accurate.

Good for you for addressing her behavior for what it is!

Thanks for that, makes the pain less to laugh about it... .

May I ask, why did you think I was going to get it? I must still be dumb as I thought and believed I was being nice... .

What made you think, oh ___... .

Yes, but I have not left yet.   #lunacyinthefaceoffacts

[OutOfEgypt]

haha.  No, I thought you were being perfectly reasonable.  I just know how it goes.  I'm so experienced in living in that situation that I can anticipate how my BPD wife (at the time) would have responded if that was me.  I would clearly not been giving her enough attention.

You wrote:

I must still be dumb as I thought and believed I was being nice... .

No, you were.  And really... . what you think and believe is all you have to go on.  Gotta stick to it.  It's your only mostly-reliable anchor to reality.  Their reactions certainly aren't!

My eldest daughter does things like that sometimes, though in a manner much less explosive.  If I don't "like" something she is showing me "enough" for her or give "enough" attention to it, she gets all offended and says things like, "You don't even care!"  Thankfully (for her, too), I have enough sense to tell her to "knock it off!"

I remember one time my wife was masturbating in the middle of the night.  Now, keep in mind our sexual relationship was *not* a safe, trusting relationship -she was extremely critical and abusive in that area once the commitment of our marriage settled in- so I already had inhibitions about that.  But I had been working a LOT and not getting any sleep (not to mention she would keep me up trying to talk to me about things).  I was okay with the time spent with her, though it was always on her time and her terms.  What I was doing (even if sleeping) didn't matter.  She would wake me up or keep the light on and do things in the room, which would wake me up.  Anyway, that particular night she was masturbating and what-not while I was sleeping next to her, and I apparently groaned because I was so exhausted and needed to get up in like 3 hours.  She still holds that single night, that single event, against me, and that was 10 years ago.  My feelings, my level of conscious awareness (being half asleep), the kind of week I was having, the terrible sleep I had been getting -none of that mattered.  All that mattered was the rejection she felt simply because in my half-asleep exhaustion I didn't jump up and tend to her needs.  I didn't criticize her.  I didn't make fun of her.  I simply groaned and muttered something like, "Honey, I just need to get a little more sleep."  Nope.  How dare I!

I actually had an unfortunately short relationship with a woman who was quite normal, and it was really nice to be able to have your own personal preferences and boundaries without having it trigger some kind of rage reaction.  If she or I couldn't talk, didn't want to, was busy, needed to sleep, or wanted to do something else, we were both perfectly okay with it.  We would just "catch up later".  Mutual respect. It was... . new to me, to say the least. Just letting you know it exists!

[half-life]

Funny I have been through many of these sleep deprivation sessions myself. I might in bed by myself while she was doing things. And then she just stormed into the bedroom in the midnight and started to talk to me without having any thought that she was waking me up from deep sleep. It was inconsequential things. Still I have to response to her and wait for her to quit.

Also all the time she complains that we never spend time to talk. We have all these time on the dinner table and we didn't use. Anyway so we make time to talk like 10:30pm. I would love to do a lot of these if they are friendly conversations. But the talk sessions were essentially her complaining all the things about me. It went on and on and ran past the midnight with no sight of ending. I have an image that I'm a prisoner in those interrogation session that they are trying to break me by depriving me from sleep.

I should have just say "Enough, knock it off".

It doesn't happen much these day anymore. She is just convinced I won't "talk" to her.

[OutOfEgypt]

Half-Life... . That's like "come close so I can hurt you and push you away".  My ex did that a lot.  During the very beginning of our divorce, when my ex felt me moving away emotionally, she suddenly had a change of tune.  It was like a switch was flipped and suddenly she was a different person... . sweet, caring, thoughtful, wondered why we didn't spend time (she was long in the phase of the relationship where she would punish and neglect and blame).  And I would fall for it.  And then as we had our intimate moments, sitting on the front porch swing wrapped around each other, she would proceed to tell me all the things she can't stand about me and why she doesn't want to be with me.  It's like... . HUH?

[half-life]

After so many months of chaos, me learning (and succeeding) in my early steps of detachment, I finally decided to set up the ultimate boundary. 

Here's my story in case anyone's interested: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=225397.msg12432613#msg12432613

I have read your first post. My honest comment is your husband is incapable of taking care of himself and the family. He has to prove he is worthy to be your child's father, which I'm not seeing from your post.

To most males I know, fatherhood is a magic moment for people to revisit their life and to become more responsible. Your husband practically abandon you at this time to fool around. To me he fails entirely. You have a long road to go with your child. You have to think if you can handle an emotional unstable and suicidal burden.

[AimingforMastery]

Half-Life... . That's like "come close so I can hurt you and push you away".  My ex did that a lot.  During the very beginning of our divorce, when my ex felt me moving away emotionally, she suddenly had a change of tune.  It was like a switch was flipped and suddenly she was a different person... . sweet, caring, thoughtful, wondered why we didn't spend time (she was long in the phase of the relationship where she would punish and neglect and blame).  And I would fall for it.  And then as we had our intimate moments, sitting on the front porch swing wrapped around each other, she would proceed to tell me all the things she can't stand about me and why she doesn't want to be with me.  It's like... . HUH?

That was simply brilliant.

Tonight I had a f&*%$n breakthrough, perhaps for the first time I was like I don't want this.

WOW WOW

Give, give, give, give, give = get your head smashed in.

[NewMom]

I have read your first post. My honest comment is your husband is incapable of taking care of himself and the family. He has to prove he is worthy to be your child's father, which I'm not seeing from your post.

To most males I know, fatherhood is a magic moment for people to revisit their life and to become more responsible. Your husband practically abandon you at this time to fool around. To me he fails entirely. You have a long road to go with your child. You have to think if you can handle an emotional unstable and suicidal burden.[/quote]
Thank you for this honest message!   I am getting an appointment with a divorce lawyer for next week.  No matter what he says, or does.  He's not interested in getting better (at least not as far as I can see and determine).  He was supposed to spend time with his parents and me yesterday to talk through a few things about how things will be moving on.  He didn't show.  But went out for drinks with a friend in the evening.  So again he proved, we don't mean anything.  I'm going to stop ruminating on him and start looking at how to improve my daughter's and my life.  It starts by me and my D visiting friends for a long weekend.  After getting some peace and quiet I will push on with getting myself out of his reach. 

[NewMom]

This video has helped me a bit:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i8rAKZcnyo&index=14&list=UUsD9QqEpqZYnoRUkMlq0nYw

It's about me now!  And it's a process I need to get to!

[Xstaticaddict]

Funny I have been through many of these sleep deprivation sessions myself.

It's crazy how reading these posts brings up memories and reframes them in a totally different context.

My gf used to get herself worked up over something to do with how she was or wasn't being treated and would make a point of letting me know how upset she was and how she couldn't sleep and she would get so pissed that i could "turn off the conflict" no matter what it was and go to sleep. Granted many nights I would stay up with her until unreasonable hours "working through" things that i now know there was no outcome possible that would have made things better in the long run.

Always seems like an endless no win game where the goal is to be miserable and shift all responsibility for that self induced misery onto their partner.

I sleep really well most nights now.

[OutOfEgypt]

I sleep really well most nights now.

Ha.  Amen.  Me too, generally speaking.  I also don't do alot of the other torturous things I used to do, like drive to the park and just sit there and stare off into space because it was at least a temporary relief from all the tension and anxiety or beg God to either change something or kill me.  Yeah, those were not good days... .

[Fanie]

Now this is great ... . or what

We had severe BPD tornado for the past 5 months

The tornado subsided into a strong wind now

after I asked her if she still want me to leave (she asked me 4 months ago to leave)

She had her binging (drinking and maybe sex?) and I think she "needs a break"

She even sms'd me "what is wrong with me and alcohol?" 2 weeks ago

Since then things are much better

This morning at 0530, guess what, we had sex !

I cant call it making love , but yes we climaxed ?

I don't think it was fake

Funny thing ; she still does not kiss me when I drop her off at her workplace ?

Goodness - BPD ... .

What's next ? this is BPD buddy , you might say

I believe its in the hands of God

BUT - here is the thing

I believe that God can heal !

Faith is our enemy !

I pray for all of us in this  situation - Don't stop praying !

[OutOfEgypt]

God *can* heal.  He can do anything.  But here's what a good Christian counselor told me years ago that I wish I had listened to.  "She's broken.  She's borderline.  She's pathological.  She's going to keep doing this to you.  You've gotta leave her.  The only hope she has is if God breaks her into a million pieces and puts her back together again."  Yes, miracles can happen.  But God generally works through very ordinary means, such as giving us brothers and sisters who share experiences, giving us brains to make hard decisions for ourselves, and giving us pathways and resources to get out when needed.  

I prayed for 12 years for a miracle -for God to somehow fix all of "this" (me, her, our relationship, whatever).  And God didn't heal.  In fact, things only got worse.  Of course, I can't predict what the future holds -I can only make the best decisions I can make for today based on today.  That is really all you can do.  God expects us to live in the grey areas and make the best decisions we can, while trusting Him with what He has revealed and promised.  While he may certainly heal, He has not made any such promise.  So, the mistake I made was in waiting for God to do something as a way to avoid having to do something myself.  The two are not mutually exclusive ideas -in fact, God normally works through the means of our decisions and actions.  Hence, we need to be active, not passive.  We need to be making decisions and moving in directions.  It is not "I will act OR I will trust God".  It is "I will act AND I will trust God."  If God moves in such a way as to bring healing, then great.

But make no mistake... . BPD is "pathological".  That means there is "pathway" it takes, like a well-worn groove.  There is a direction.  So, if we merely sit back and wait for God to fix it (and He doesn't), then we can rest assured that the issue and the relationship *will continue* to move in a direction.  It just won't be the direction we want.  It will be the direction determined by the BPD person and their pathology.  For years I begged God to do something, while He may have been saying to me, "Me do something?  How about you!"

Things did not get better until I acted.  I waited for God to do something.  I waited for my wife (at the time) to do something.  I hung on her every movement, every slight tremor that appeared to indicate that she might be truly happy with me again or that things might be improving.  I even tried to perfect myself, thinking that it would turn her around.  Nothing changed for the better until I started acting to actually stop the crazy cycle and direction things were going in.  And now, while things are not perfect, I am in a much better place with considerably more peace -with myself, with others, with my kids, and with God.