Meeting with DSS investigator this Wed afternoon

[Matt]

I think you're handling stuff well.  The situations where you are all together, outdoors among other people, and everything is about the kids, seem OK, with maybe a little risk.  Make sure you know what you will do if your wife begins to act out - will you leave the situation?  Or handle it some other way?  You can't wait til she flips out and then try to figure it out;  you have to have a plan you can execute quickly to end the escalation.

I think it was probably good that you mentioned BPD to the psychologist, and good that you leave that topic alone when you talk with him and with your wife.  You have made your point.

Since he has a Ph.D. he is qualified to diagnose her (and you).  Watch for a tendency to diagnose without any objective instrument like the MMPI-2;  that could be dangerous.  You might ask him at some point if he will be diagnosing either or both of you, and if he ever uses objective evaluations in his diagnoses.  ":)o you have the authority to ask us to take objective psych evals?"  Make it clear that your interest is in getting all the relevant information into his hands, not in accusing your wife of something, or in avoiding evaluation yourself.

Let him take the lead, for the most part.  Know how many sessions there will be.  If the process is nearing its end and the focus has all been on you, point that out, and ask that the remaining time be focused on your wife's behavior and the results of that.

Find ways to bring up "parental alienation", but avoid that term.  Talk about anything you have seen or heard which suggests that your wife may be - consciously or unconsciously - doing something that makes the kids scared of you.  Ask the Ph.D. what he thinks is causing the kids' fears.

Be open to suggestions.  If he says, "Maybe you should quit doing X and start doing Y.", say, "OK, I can do that." or maybe, "I don't do X - why would you think that I do?" (if you really don't do X at all).  Listen to his ideas about how you can make improvements, and show him, from session to session, that you are making changes that can help (even if you don't think these are the biggest issues).

Make factual statements about your wife's behaviors - not broad characterizations.  :)on't say, "You are always angry!".  Say, "Twice this weekend you yelled at me in front of the kids."

He will evaluate you (and your wife) largely by how you act in the sessions.  Listen to your with and the therapist carefully and don't interrupt.  Say your truth clearly - don't tip-toe around important issues.  Don't exaggerate or get upset, but if something she says makes you mad, say, "When you accuse me of something I didn't do, I feel angry."  Name your emotions - "Right now I feel very frustrated that we have spent the whole hour talking about something that happened several years ago and we aren't focused on what is happening over the last few weeks."

[formflier]

I think you're handling stuff well.  The situations where you are all together, outdoors among other people, and everything is about the kids, seem OK, with maybe a little risk.  Make sure you know what you will do if your wife begins to act out - will you leave the situation?  Or handle it some other way?  You can't wait til she flips out and then try to figure it out;  you have to have a plan you can execute quickly to end the escalation.

The quick plan is to say something non-committal... . I'm sorry you feel that way... . and exit the situation.  If I say I'm sorry... . that kind of points at me.  Of course if I actually do make a booboo around the kids I want to model good behavior and apologize.  I have not pressed for any signs of affection but have expressed to her and the kids that I had a great time and was looking forward to the next event.  Today we were at safe summer kickoff at Sheriff's.  It was an awesome event for the county and my family.  We truly had a great time with the kids.  My general plan is to keep doing that... . so we are positive and allow her to get several T sessions under her belt. 

Tomorrow is fish fry after church.  That will be a few hours together and that will be it for the day.

I think it was probably good that you mentioned BPD to the psychologist, and good that you leave that topic alone when you talk with him and with your wife.  You have made your point.  yep... and I was clear about source... . that it was traits... etc etc.  But you are correct... he has info... .

Since he has a Ph.D. he is qualified to diagnose her (and you).  Watch for a tendency to diagnose without any objective instrument like the MMPI-2;  that could be dangerous.  You might ask him at some point if he will be diagnosing either or both of you, and if he ever uses objective evaluations in his diagnoses.  ":)o you have the authority to ask us to take objective psych evals?"  Make it clear that your interest is in getting all the relevant information into his hands, not in accusing your wife of something, or in avoiding evaluation yourself.

I have a gut feeling about him from that is he more focused on behaviors and feelings rather than diagnosis.  Hard to explain but he seems to want to get to know us more (than test us) and take a look at our patterns. 

Let him take the lead, for the most part.  Know how many sessions there will be.  If the process is nearing its end and the focus has all been on you, point that out, and ask that the remaining time be focused on your wife's behavior and the results of that.

The plan seems to be that this will continue for a long time (the family therapy with wife and I have separate individual sessions with same guy

Find ways to bring up "parental alienation", but avoid that term.  Talk about anything you have seen or heard which suggests that your wife may be - consciously or unconsciously - doing something that makes the kids scared of you.  Ask the Ph.D. what he thinks is causing the kids' fears. 

He seems to have picked up her controlling streak. And he says their fears are coming from "us"... . either individually or from the issues in our relationship.  So... . his tactic seems to be why deal with kids fears when I can stop the activity that is causing them.

Be open to suggestions.  If he says, "Maybe you should quit doing X and start doing Y.", say, "OK, I can do that." or maybe, "I don't do X - why would you think that I do?" (if you really don't do X at all).  Listen to his ideas about how you can make improvements, and show him, from session to session, that you are making changes that can help (even if you don't think these are the biggest issues).

Make factual statements about your wife's behaviors - not broad characterizations.  :)on't say, "You are always angry!".  Say, "Twice this weekend you yelled at me in front of the kids."

Good point... I'll remember that.  For instance... . one time yesterday I got a hint of a negative comment from her about the event we were at.  Not directed at me.  Today... . nothing at all was amiss.

He will evaluate you (and your wife) largely by how you act in the sessions.  Listen to your with and the therapist carefully and don't interrupt.  Say your truth clearly - don't tip-toe around important issues.  Don't exaggerate or get upset, but if something she says makes you mad, say, "When you accuse me of something I didn't do, I feel angry."  Name your emotions - "Right now I feel very frustrated that we have spent the whole hour talking about something that happened several years ago and we aren't focused on what is happening over the last few weeks."

[Matt]

That's encouraging, especially the part about taking his time and getting to know you.  The danger might be if he comes to conclusions based on a few sessions with your wife on her best behavior.

Be patient and remember the outcome you want:  Identification of all the factors contributing to the problem and ways to make them better.  If you believe that one factor is that she may have BPD, that won't get fixed without a lot of work on her part and the right help.

One theory is that a person with BPD may be more likely to get and accept help if the disorder is never named.  This was explained to me by the person who first told me about BPD:  our fourth marriage counselor.  She said that if someone is told they have BPD, they will look it up, and they'll be scared, so they will deny it, and either attack the other party (me), or the therapist.  Sometimes therapists are physically attacked, or the person with BPD may complain to the therapist's boss, or file a complaint against her.  And nobody wins - the person with BPD gets no help.

So her method was to spend time alone with each of us, and use her time with my wife to treat her as if she had been diagnosed with BPD - gradually begin individual therapy with her.  This didn't work, but it might have if the therapist had more time.  (We ended therapy because I saw that it was not going to save the marriage so I proceeded with the divorce.)  Success in treating BPD takes years.

The therapist told me not to mention BPD to my wife, and I didn't, until we had given up on therapy and proceeded with the divorce.  Then I filed a motion to have a Custody Evaluator appointed, and he diagnosed my wife with BPD and some other stuff.

So... . it may be sensible for your couples therapist to not mention BPD to your wife, and it may be best for you to cooperate with that for now.

[formflier]

I agree it is encouraging.  I need to challenge myself... . and will need backup from you guys to keep myself "centered" and focused on getting my wife and family help... . and me... . and not have me getting happy... declaring this all fixed... . and jumping back in.

That's not going to happen... . me going back with no good fixes or changes to what has been wrong for past 5 years.

That being said... . I do hope for healing... . I need to be able to acknowledge and act on good progress... . but keep it in the proper perspective.

When I try to step back and look at where I am at... . so far... . I'm not repeating any old... failed patterns.  This is good... . doesn't mean what I am doing will be successful... . but it is good nonetheless

That's encouraging, especially the part about taking his time and getting to know you.  The danger might be if he comes to conclusions based on a few sessions with your wife on her best behavior.

Be patient and remember the outcome you want:  Identification of all the factors contributing to the problem and ways to make them better.  If you believe that one factor is that she may have BPD, that won't get fixed without a lot of work on her part and the right help.

One theory is that a person with BPD may be more likely to get and accept help if the disorder is never named.  This was explained to me by the person who first told me about BPD:  our fourth marriage counselor.  She said that if someone is told they have BPD, they will look it up, and they'll be scared, so they will deny it, and either attack the other party (me), or the therapist.  Sometimes therapists are physically attacked, or the person with BPD may complain to the therapist's boss, or file a complaint against her.  And nobody wins - the person with BPD gets no help.

So her method was to spend time alone with each of us, and use her time with my wife to treat her as if she had been diagnosed with BPD - gradually begin individual therapy with her.  This didn't work, but it might have if the therapist had more time.  (We ended therapy because I saw that it was not going to save the marriage so I proceeded with the divorce.)  Success in treating BPD takes years.

The therapist told me not to mention BPD to my wife, and I didn't, until we had given up on therapy and proceeded with the divorce.  Then I filed a motion to have a Custody Evaluator appointed, and he diagnosed my wife with BPD and some other stuff.

So... . it may be sensible for your couples therapist to not mention BPD to your wife, and it may be best for you to cooperate with that for now.

[livednlearned]

I agree with Matt -- you're handling things really well. And you're shining some light on the family dynamics, and it can really help to have experts see how everyone functions. It sure rocked my world.  

The quick plan is to say something non-committal... . I'm sorry you feel that way... . and exit the situation.  If I say I'm sorry... . that kind of points at me.  Of course if I actually do make a booboo around the kids I want to model good behavior and apologize.  I have not pressed for any signs of affection but have expressed to her and the kids that I had a great time and was looking forward to the next event.  Today we were at safe summer kickoff at Sheriff's.  It was an awesome event for the county and my family.  We truly had a great time with the kids.  My general plan is to keep doing that... . so we are positive and allow her to get several T sessions under her belt. 

Maybe something to talk to your T about is how you should handle a situation like the one Matt describes. Tell your T about the time in church when your wife demanded you kiss her or she would divorce you. Was it best to get up and walk out? Is it helpful to email the whole family and explain what was going on -- which I think you did.

Ask for input on how to work on this with your family. You have kids of all ages, so it could be that addressing the family in one swoop isn't appropriate, but maybe to the older kids, you can be proactive, and explain that your goal is to manage conflict in a healthy way -- so going forward, when someone does abc, you are going to do xyz. You think it's best to let emotions cool so people can avoid heated arguments, etc. Or whatever it is you're trying to do.

[formflier]

Maybe something to talk to your T about is how you should handle a situation like the one Matt describes. Tell your T about the time in church when your wife demanded you kiss her or she would divorce you. Was it best to get up and walk out? Is it helpful to email the whole family and explain what was going on -- which I think you did.

Yep... . I should chat with the new therapist (the family guy) about this.  I have not to this point.  Here is my opinion.  I think I handled church spot on the money.  The limit that I use for myself is that if I get a do this or else threat... . I walk away.  In the past I would try to implore her to be reasonable. 

The emailing everyone... . might be a good idea.  I'm convinced that I put in too much info.  I do not think I should leave without explanation... . the trick is how or what to explain.  Just like "sorry you feel that way"... . can be used to defuse... . I need something I can send to everyone... . that doesn't blame.  ":)addy decided to reduce conflict by going home... . (still seems to be some blame there).    Please help with this

Ask for input on how to work on this with your family. You have kids of all ages, so it could be that addressing the family in one swoop isn't appropriate, but maybe to the older kids, you can be proactive, and explain that your goal is to manage conflict in a healthy way -- so going forward, when someone does abc, you are going to do xyz. You think it's best to let emotions cool so people can avoid heated arguments, etc. Or whatever it is you're trying to do.

I want to start talking about "healthy relationships"... . and what are the markers of a healthy relationship... and what is not.  Do this or else... . is not healthy... . unless the house is on fire.

[livednlearned]

I want to start talking about "healthy relationships"... . and what are the markers of a healthy relationship... and what is not.  

You and everyone here  

I don't want to throw another book title at you -- you have a lot of reading already on your plate! But Parenting with Love and Logic is a good one when you get around to it. For now, reading about BPD is important, and seeing a therapist will really help.

My hunch is that being vulnerable with your kids will bowl them right over. "Guys, I'm learning that you feel this way about me. It's the last thing I would want the people I love most in this world to feel. I'm trying to learn new ways of doing things, and it's going to be a work in progress. I'm going to make some mistakes. But I'm ready to get started, and want to hear from you about whether some of the new changes make you feel better about our relationship."

But first, like you said -- sometimes taking a walk is the best line of defense so you can collect your thoughts. Change is hard, and being able to recognize when it's time to gather yourself is important. I think your instinct to address the family was a good one, my thinking is that you and your T might come up with something similar, but proactively instead of after the fact, which made you feel like you had to explain your actions on the defense. Telling the family in advance what you're working on, and why you're choosing to solve it by doing xyz might help them support you instead of feeling alarmed. Doing it after the fact also gave your wife a chance to take over your message instead of letting you be in front of it.

You're doing good work, formflier! It's hard stuff. Not for the faint of heart.

[formflier]

I want to start talking about "healthy relationships"... . and what are the markers of a healthy relationship... and what is not.  

You and everyone here  

I don't want to throw another book title at you -- you have a lot of reading already on your plate! But Parenting with Love and Logic is a good one when you get around to it. For now, reading about BPD is important, and seeing a therapist will really help.

My hunch is that being vulnerable with your kids will bowl them right over. "Guys, I'm learning that you feel this way about me. It's the last thing I would want the people I love most in this world to feel. I'm trying to learn new ways of doing things, and it's going to be a work in progress. I'm going to make some mistakes. But I'm ready to get started, and want to hear from you about whether some of the new changes make you feel better about our relationship."

Yep... . the above is something that I have thought about.  I need to think on this for a while... . but something along those lines will need to be said... . and then most importantly lived in front of their eyes.  I also need to be very open about the kinds of things that most likely will not change.  Such as needing to go to bed and keep sleep numbers up high.  The stay up late and watch movies thing really doesn't work any more... . and being tired sets me up for a bad interaction with uBPDw... . or anyone.

But first, like you said -- sometimes taking a walk is the best line of defense so you can collect your thoughts. Change is hard, and being able to recognize when it's time to gather yourself is important. I think your instinct to address the family was a good one, my thinking is that you and your T might come up with something similar, but proactively instead of after the fact, which made you feel like you had to explain your actions on the defense. Telling the family in advance what you're working on, and why you're choosing to solve it by doing xyz might help them support you instead of feeling alarmed. Doing it after the fact also gave your wife a chance to take over your message instead of letting you be in front of it.

And hopefully this will get others in the mood to share what they are "working on" as well.

You're doing good work, formflier! It's hard stuff. Not for the faint of heart.

Amen to that... . sometimes I think I would rather be single engine, at night, trying to get aboard in rough seas... .

I honestly don't know how I would have gotten this far if I had found a home here.  Thanks to everyone here... . please keep all the advice coming

[Grey Kitty]

formflier, I'm with Matt on the  planning idea here... .

The situations where you are all together, outdoors among other people, and everything is about the kids, seem OK, with maybe a little risk.  Make sure you know what you will do if your wife begins to act out - will you leave the situation?  Or handle it some other way?  You can't wait til she flips out and then try to figure it out;  you have to have a plan you can execute quickly to end the escalation.

I think your plan for this is good... . but I've got another area to suggest you plan for:

The DSS evaluation period will end. During this period, you are prohibited from non-public situations with your wife. I've heard you mention hopes that DSS will require your wife to get help. But they could just decide that your kids aren't really at risk from either parent and drop all restrictions... . or even if they require/recommend therapy, there may be no teeth in it for your wife.

At this point, you are free to just move back in. If you do that, you will need to make plans for much more difficult situations that are likely to come up.

[ForeverDad]

Conversely, if DSS wants more time to evaluate things, or asks you to have supervised contact with the children or contact anything less than what's considered normal for a parent, ponder your options with your lawyer.  Being 'ordered' to limited or supervised contact without basis is one thing, 'agreeing' to a settlement is another.  That's my feeling on this.

In my case, my ex and I separated, we had cases pending against each other.  During that time court assigned me alternate weekends and an evening in between, clearly not seeing me as any sort of risk.  Due to her allegations, CPS had even stepped up and stated in court they had "no concerns" about me.  Yet when the cases were dismissed a few months later we were cast back into the limbo of "both parents have rights but nothing specified".  She refused to allow contact, telling me she would only allow supervised visitation.  I told her that wasn't appropriate seeing we'd just had 4 months of orders with no restrictions for my parenting.  She promptly walked out.  Of course she wasn't listening, the court had made her entitled again by ending a schedule she didn't like.  So I didn't get time with my son for over 3 months while I prepared and filed for divorce and waited for the initial hearing - and the orders then were the same as before.   But I was not going to 'agree' to supervised visitation when the court had already accepted I wasn't a risk to our child.  Your case is of course a little different, you have yet to get a fact-filled conclusion from the court or agencies about you.  But I mention this in case any factors apply in your situation.

[formflier]

formflier, I'm with Matt on the  planning idea here... .


I think your plan for this is good... . but I've got another area to suggest you plan for:

The DSS evaluation period will end. During this period, you are prohibited from non-public situations with your wife. I've heard you mention hopes that DSS will require your wife to get help. But they could just decide that your kids aren't really at risk from either parent and drop all restrictions... . or even if they require/recommend therapy, there may be no teeth in it for your wife.

At this point, you are free to just move back in. If you do that, you will need to make plans for much more difficult situations that are likely to come up.

Right now... I'm NOT thinking a rush to move back in is a good thing.  If the DSS monitoring period ends... and we are all going to the counselings... . and that seems to be progressing... . or at least she is not storming out.  I think I would like to step up contact... . but not move in.  Come over for family dinners and that kind of thing.  Trying to take the long view... . go slow... . reduce chances of triggers.  I think your and Matt's point is that at some time... there will be a trigger... . and I need to be ready.  Oh yeah... I've thought of that.

[formflier]

Conversely, if DSS wants more time to evaluate things, or asks you to have supervised contact with the children or contact anything less than what's considered normal for a parent, ponder your options with your lawyer.  Being 'ordered' to limited or supervised contact without basis is one thing, 'agreeing' to a settlement is another.  That's my feeling on this.

Yep... . last meeting with my lawyer was in person... . in my office.  One of the perks of working in the courthouse.  Meeting was twofold.  1.My legal situation and his advice.  From the point of view of having best chance to heal my family... . I'm sitting pretty.  This was done as privately as possible, but a stand was taken against her behavior.

2.  We had a long talk about how his family situation played out and how even to this day issues come up with kids.  Years ago his wife was hospitalized after a suicide attempt.  Has been under psychiatric care since.  She was in hospital for 10 days... . out for couple... . back in for a while longer.  Apparently the quick relapse was a sign of deep seeded issues... . really deep.  After that he hung on for couple years and then got full custody of kids because she literally wasn't capable of caring for them in any sort of stable fashion.  She is still around... . and a few days earlier his 20 some son said that he had "stolen" the kids from Mom in custody trickery.  He has a very long view on this as well... . he knows where that is coming from... . and unstable mom... . and it is just part of his reality he deals with.  50% of their genetics are predisposed to whatever issues Mom has.  The mom's mom had passed away in a mental institution. 

Why do I mention this?  One... to be thankful that issues in my family are not more severe and two... . that I realize I am settling in for a long road... .

In my case, my ex and I separated, we had cases pending against each other.  During that time court assigned me alternate weekends and an evening in between, clearly not seeing me as any sort of risk.  Due to her allegations, CPS had even stepped up and stated in court they had "no concerns" about me.  Yet when the cases were dismissed a few months later we were cast back into the limbo of "both parents have rights but nothing specified".  She refused to allow contact, telling me she would only allow supervised visitation.  I told her that wasn't appropriate seeing we'd just had 4 months of orders with no restrictions for my parenting.  She promptly walked out.  Of course she wasn't listening, the court had made her entitled again by ending a schedule she didn't like.  So I didn't get time with my son for over 3 months while I prepared and filed for divorce and waited for the initial hearing - and the orders then were the same as before.   But I was not going to 'agree' to supervised visitation when the court had already accepted I wasn't a risk to our child.  Your case is of course a little different, you have yet to get a fact-filled conclusion from the court or agencies about you.  But I mention this in case any factors apply in your situation.

Only other thing I will mention here that would make me go slow and follow family Ts advice... . is that I an now convinced that my kids fears about me are not all from coaching.  I can't put a percentage on it.  Seems to be from the time when after being woken up at night... . I would argue with wife... . standard loud JADE stuff.  Basic attitude was if you are going to wake me up... . then let's have it out.  Unfortunately... . I can overrule her with my loud shouting.  The kids would be woken up and would listen to this... .   Heartbreaking.  Somehow I need to give them the confidence that it is in the past

[formflier]

 

We met at church and sat as a family.  She had told me that most likely she would come to church but skip the fish fry fundraiser afterwards.

Big group of people were talking after church... . several of the kids were saying they were hungry... . so I asked if they would like to go down to fish fry.  She was open to it and we went down to have lunch as family... nothing rushed.  Lots of good conversation.

Things I noticed. 

When she first showed up at church.  There was some tightness to her face.  I'm guessing there was some internal struggle of some sort. 

They sat in pew and then I moved over to sit next to her.  I had been with my parents. 

In my opinion she was much more relaxed after being there 10 min or so. 

Note... . her mom is still in town and her sister is at the house as well.  Both shown signs of BPD.

So... . I can only imagine what was in her mind.

Tonight we will meet at a church function for our marriage "class or group" at church.  We had been going through a series about what the Bible has to say about marriage.  This is an end of season thing where we bring families for a get together.


We have our first marriage counseling (since the DSS intervention) this Thursday.  I will try to confirm with her she has this on her calendar.  That is about the only edgy thing I seem coming up... . it could trigger something.  I doubt it... but want to be ready.

[livednlearned]

Only other thing I will mention here that would make me go slow and follow family Ts advice... . is that I an now convinced that my kids fears about me are not all from coaching.  I can't put a percentage on it.  Seems to be from the time when after being woken up at night... . I would argue with wife... . standard loud JADE stuff.  Basic attitude was if you are going to wake me up... . then let's have it out.  Unfortunately... . I can overrule her with my loud shouting.  The kids would be woken up and would listen to this... .   Heartbreaking.  Somehow I need to give them the confidence that it is in the past

It's hard to look at our faults like this -- you're doing really good work here.

I have found that being vulnerable with my son, like admitting I didn't handle something well, has created a lot more closeness and intimacy between us. In general, I find that asking him questions without defending myself has built the most trust. That is seriously advanced validation  -- to let you kids speak how they feel, what they think, even if it's not entirely accurate, especially about something you did or said or felt. And then just letting them have their feelings. No defending on your part. Letting it be about them.

My son told me -- after a really difficult conversation -- that he didn't trust me. Ouch. He said I didn't tell him things and he knew I was hiding things from him. I wanted to give him 1000 reasons why, as a kid, he didn't need to know everything, but you know what? He was right. The fact is that I didn't tell him things, and it doesn't matter why when you're a kid. He felt hurt, and that's what I acknowledged. "You feel hurt because I wasn't telling you everything. Did that make you feel angry at me?" Then he went on to say how he felt, because he realized I was listening. Really listening. He told me he wasn't angry so much as he felt really alone. It was until the next day I brought up the conversation and talked to him about how grown ups sometimes don't tell kids everything blah blah blah. By then, he was ok hearing that. And he didn't get defensive or feel like I wasn't listening.

If you ask your kids how the yelling made them feel, and just focus on how they feel, and not defending why, they'll recognize that you're changing. The hardest part for me in similar situations was slowing things down so that I didn't rush in and start explaining. Really give your kids time to take in this new you. Let there be long pauses and big feelings, even if it hurts, even if you have a different view from what they're perceiving.

[formflier]

Thanks... . I had general thoughts about this... . but this post tightened up the tactics on how to get this done.

I'm hoping that my genuine feelings of heartbreak, my desire to be a new dad, and some help on tactics from this board will help produce a better result.

When I say things about going slow... . you explained it much better... . I shouldn't rush in... . I should let it be about them.

I'll switch gears and say I'm having similar thoughts about my uBPDw... . I'm in no rush to rush back to her... . whatever I can do to focus on positive interactions... . show my openness with the kinds... . might help build our relationship up. 

However... I need to keep in mind my limits with her... . and not ever violate them.

Thanks again and keep the suggestions coming.

Only other thing I will mention here that would make me go slow and follow family Ts advice... . is that I an now convinced that my kids fears about me are not all from coaching.  I can't put a percentage on it.  Seems to be from the time when after being woken up at night... . I would argue with wife... . standard loud JADE stuff.  Basic attitude was if you are going to wake me up... . then let's have it out.  Unfortunately... . I can overrule her with my loud shouting.  The kids would be woken up and would listen to this... .   Heartbreaking.  Somehow I need to give them the confidence that it is in the past

It's hard to look at our faults like this -- you're doing really good work here.

I have found that being vulnerable with my son, like admitting I didn't handle something well, has created a lot more closeness and intimacy between us. In general, I find that asking him questions without defending myself has built the most trust. That is seriously advanced validation  -- to let you kids speak how they feel, what they think, even if it's not entirely accurate, especially about something you did or said or felt. And then just letting them have their feelings. No defending on your part. Letting it be about them.

My son told me -- after a really difficult conversation -- that he didn't trust me. Ouch. He said I didn't tell him things and he knew I was hiding things from him. I wanted to give him 1000 reasons why, as a kid, he didn't need to know everything, but you know what? He was right. The fact is that I didn't tell him things, and it doesn't matter why when you're a kid. He felt hurt, and that's what I acknowledged. "You feel hurt because I wasn't telling you everything. Did that make you feel angry at me?" Then he went on to say how he felt, because he realized I was listening. Really listening. He told me he wasn't angry so much as he felt really alone. It was until the next day I brought up the conversation and talked to him about how grown ups sometimes don't tell kids everything blah blah blah. By then, he was ok hearing that. And he didn't get defensive or feel like I wasn't listening.

If you ask your kids how the yelling made them feel, and just focus on how they feel, and not defending why, they'll recognize that you're changing. The hardest part for me in similar situations was slowing things down so that I didn't rush in and start explaining. Really give your kids time to take in this new you. Let there be long pauses and big feelings, even if it hurts, even if you have a different view from what they're perceiving.

[formflier]

 

I've discovered a snag in plans for this week.

Kindergarten promotions are schedule for same time as marriage counseling.

I think the right play is for me to point this out to my uBPDw this evening.  I think I will try to reschedule... I want to see my guy get promoted... and I'm sure she will as well.

This would be the first reschedule with this counselor... . no idea if I can get it in same week... or if I will have to delay a week.

Any thoughts on this? 

I discovered this when I got a robo call from school talking about upcoming activities for the week and I was plugging them into my calendar.

[Matt]

Counseling is important but it can probably be re-scheduled.

The ceremony can't be.

[formflier]

Exactly... . just wanted to make sure I was thinking correctly about this. 

Today ended up being a good day.  She bowed out from the church event this evening.  Lots of cousins in town. 

I didn't make an issue of it via text... . just let her know I hoped they had a good time with the cousins. 

Will work on the counseling scheduling thing first thing in the morning.

Also need to check in with DSS to see what the schedule looks like and if they need more information... . basically to see where we are on this.

Counseling is important but it can probably be re-scheduled.

The ceremony can't be.

[ForeverDad]

Tonight we will meet at a church function for our marriage "class or group" at church.  We had been going through a series about what the Bible has to say about marriage.  This is an end of season thing where we bring families for a get together... .

... . She bowed out from the church event this evening.  Lots of cousins in town.

So family visiting trumped marriage workshop at this critical time?  Hmm.

My advice:  Be careful of accepting 'guilt' where it may not be appropriate or would make you look worse than you should look.  I'm talking about the times in the past where she would wake you up and you two got into shouting matches.  She was loud or shouting too, right?  (If not, then maybe she was setting you up... . )  So all the children heard was you two yelling at each other.  Then why are the children saying they're fearful of you and not her?  After all, it was an argument the parents had separate from the children, why should that make them fearful of one parent?  It wasn't directed at the children, right?  And if you agree that you did wrong and the other parent isn't included, then you're enabling that perception.  So I recommend that when talking of those events you make it clear you weren't the only one behaving improperly.  Yes, you can explain or apologize only for yourself but still protect yourself from information gaps, don't let her off the hook either.  If the children only know part of the story then you apologizing and her not apologizing will send the wrong message, that only you had culpability in those events and won't help you.  Does that make sense?

I'm thinking that these middle of the night arguments were the only bad things she could find to make you look bad and so she's ramped up the kids about it and, lo and behold, here we are, you being painted as a bad father for things that hadn't even happened recently and didn't involve them anyway to boot! ... . See how diverted and off-track this has gotten?  This can only happen in xPD-Land.

[formflier]

Yep... . I have been thinking a lot about what I would say... and when it might be appropriate.  I can only apologize for what I have done.

Now that lots of the family drama is out in the open... . I think it will become more an more obvious who can accept blame and alter behavior... . and who can't.

I'm also in the uncharted waters of her being in T for the first time ever... . to talk about her.  Not just in the context of MC. 

Back to my original point... . I want to own what I did.  I don't want to leave information gaps (I like that phrase)... . but I do want to stay away form any hint of "she made me"... . that is the same stupid argument that she makes... . Daddy made me mad... .

When what we should be teaching our kids is that we are all responsible for our own behavior.

Thoughts on how to walk that tightrope.

Tonight we will meet at a church function for our marriage "class or group" at church.  We had been going through a series about what the Bible has to say about marriage.  This is an end of season thing where we bring families for a get together... .

... . She bowed out from the church event this evening.  Lots of cousins in town.

So family visiting trumped marriage workshop at this critical time?  Hmm.

My advice:  Be careful of accepting 'guilt' where it may not be appropriate or would make you look worse than you should look.  I'm talking about the times in the past where she would wake you up and you two got into shouting matches.  She was loud or shouting too, right?  (If not, then maybe she was setting you up... . )  So all the children heard was you two yelling at each other.  Then why are the children saying they're fearful of you and not her?  After all, it was an argument the parents had separate from the children, why should that make them fearful of one parent?  It wasn't directed at the children, right?  And if you agree that you did wrong and the other parent isn't included, then you're enabling that perception.  So I recommend that when talking of those events you make it clear you weren't the only one behaving improperly.  Yes, you can explain or apologize only for yourself but still protect yourself from information gaps, don't let her off the hook either.  If the children only know part of the story then you apologizing and her not apologizing will send the wrong message, that only you had culpability in those events and won't help you.  Does that make sense?

I'm thinking that these middle of the night arguments were the only bad things she could find to make you look bad and so she's ramped up the kids about it and, lo and behold, here we are, you being painted as a bad father for things that hadn't even happened recently and didn't involve them anyway to boot! ... . See how diverted and off-track this has gotten?  This can only happen in xPD-Land.

[livednlearned]

FD makes a really good point -- there is a difference between owning your behavior, and letting others use you for target practice.

When it comes to talking to the kids, it's best to focus on what they feel, and your relationship with them. If they mention mom, set that aside. It's about your relationship with them, and letting them tell you how they feel. If they say, "Mom said you wake up in the middle of the night and yell at her," the best response is to ask them how that makes them feel. You're working with emotions at this point.

Later, like the next day, you can bring it up. "Hey, I was thinking about what you said yesterday. I'm glad you told me how you feel. I'm trying to figure out what to do when mom wakes me up and has an argument on her mind -- the doctor says I really need sleep because of stuff that happened to me when I was away. I'm going to ask her to not wake me up anymore during the night, and to wait until it's daylight to talk about stuff. That's a better time to talk about things anyway, and I won't feel like yelling when I've had enough sleep. I don't want you to feel bad at night like that anymore."

Something along those lines. Correcting the false assumption or accusation after they've been able to unload how they feel.

[Matt]

Focus less on apologies (though those are good if they are true), less on promises, and mostly on practical solutions.

Less on your wife and more on the kids.  Less on her behavior and more on what you can control - your own choices.

Less on telling the kids stuff and more on hearing their stuff.

Envision how things can be better - what choices you can make - and make it happen.

[Grey Kitty]

I gotta say that it matters that the kids speak to being afraid of you... . and don't mention being afraid of your wife. You will do best with your kids by validating what they feel and what they say. (And you have good advice already on that count)

But just so we understand the situation, let me re-ask Matt's question: In these nighttime shouting incidents, what was your wife doing while you were shouting? Was she shouting too?

[formflier]

Love it... .

This is exactly the kind of help I was looking for.

Something like this... . I can pull this off. 

It slows things down a bit... . and gets away from he said... she said... .

Allows kids time to process

FD makes a really good point -- there is a difference between owning your behavior, and letting others use you for target practice.

When it comes to talking to the kids, it's best to focus on what they feel, and your relationship with them. If they mention mom, set that aside. It's about your relationship with them, and letting them tell you how they feel. If they say, "Mom said you wake up in the middle of the night and yell at her," the best response is to ask them how that makes them feel. You're working with emotions at this point.

Later, like the next day, you can bring it up. "Hey, I was thinking about what you said yesterday. I'm glad you told me how you feel. I'm trying to figure out what to do when mom wakes me up and has an argument on her mind -- the doctor says I really need sleep because of stuff that happened to me when I was away. I'm going to ask her to not wake me up anymore during the night, and to wait until it's daylight to talk about stuff. That's a better time to talk about things anyway, and I won't feel like yelling when I've had enough sleep. I don't want you to feel bad at night like that anymore."

Something along those lines. Correcting the false assumption or accusation after they've been able to unload how they feel.

[formflier]

Sure thing...

Nighttime shouting.

I'm not one that uses always... and never... . and 100% lightly... . but I can guarantee you that I NEVER woke my wife up to shout, argue or any of that.  Sorry to be a bit graphic... . but sometimes I would be interested in sex... . most of the time it happened.  Sometimes she would be interested in a middle of the night quicky... . almost always obliged.  I NEVER complained about that.  Being a bit tired in the morning... . but with a smile on your face and spring in your step due to some middle of the night bonus sex was a good thing.

But... being woken up to talk about the "tricky women" (exact quote), some whore that I was wanting, why I lied about there being a burger king in a certain town (there actually was a burger king there... . I eventually proved it), and on and on... . why I hated her... . that was NEVER initiated by me.

So yes she would be loud and there were times I honestly didn't care... . I knew that I could be louder... . I was... . and usually after a while that would end it... . she would leave room or just hush.

So there would be times at the end of the incidents where I was still shouting and she was not.  I'm sure some of the times I said nasty things while shouting... . names... . or said that hated her mouth... . or the things she said.

Hopefully that answered enough.  I shouldn't have reacted that way... . and now I know better.  What's done is done.  I didn't know... . what I didn't know.  etc etc.

There also is another connection her to PTSD.  The medication I take lowers blood pressure... . it actually is a blood pressure medication.  They just noticed that it reduces hyperarousal and nightmares.  Prazosin... . really neat and effective drug. 

But... . it reduces blood pressure.  So... I've had to train myself to get up slow in the morning.  Sit up on side of bed... . wait a few seconds.  Stand up... . wait a few second... . just to make sure everything catches up and heart and blood pressure don't spike quickly.  This is known side effect... . you just have to get used to it.

But... . when you get woken up suddenly to talk about tricky women... . she's upset and you hop out of bed to get away from here... . then your pressures start flopping around.  1.  your panicked because you just got jerked out of sleep.  2.  your panicked because your body feels weird because pressures are jumping all over the place.  3.  Your panicked because of PTSD response predisposes you to this.

You see where this is going... . there is a panic response there for a while where it is tough to figure out if I don't care... . I'm not in control... . or if I don't care if I am in control.  I just want to be asleep and not feeling that way.

Bad stuff all around.  It was scary for me... and I can imagine it was scary for anyone to listen to. In MC I would complain... . she would claim that it had happened... . but that it was months ago and would never happen again.  I would then correct and say something like "what about 2 nights ago"... . and what about the previous promises... . then she would get pissed that I contradicted her.

My pastor (the MC) always seemed to think I was overdoing the emphasis on the nighttime wakeup thing.  It was tough not being believed.  Another reason I'm now big on making recordings.  When I go to sleep I put phone next to my bed and put it on a mode where it will only record if there is noise to hear.

And... . as you can tell from how long I rambled on about this... . this is probably the biggest BPD behavior that really made life unbearable.

Because then it set you up for failure for the next days allegations.  So... when I have been knocking down 8 hours of sleep regularly... . and I get asked about some whore... . it was bothersome but wouldn't trigger me.  If I was in a feisty mood I might start asking about which one... asking about physical features... . "the pretty one with big xxxx?"  sort of an attempt to beat back the attacks.  Note... long time ago... I know this was wrong tactic

But... . if my sleep numbers had a 7 day average of about 4 hours (my sleep machine records this... the averages)... . a question about a whore could devastate me... might shout back at her in daytime... . even if I was smart enough to exit the scene (which I did sometimes)... . I would still be all twisted up in addition to being dog tired.

That was a dark time of my life... . never again.

I gotta say that it matters that the kids speak to being afraid of you... . and don't mention being afraid of your wife. You will do best with your kids by validating what they feel and what they say. (And you have good advice already on that count)

But just so we understand the situation, let me re-ask Matt's question: In these nighttime shouting incidents, what was your wife doing while you were shouting? Was she shouting too?

[Matt]

So I have a story I've never told here.  (A big relief for FD and LnL.  They might have heard a few of my stories just one too many times... . )

I was home, downstairs, and the kids were upstairs.  I saw a scorpion - not a very unusual thing where we lived.  They can be pretty dangerous.  I was barefoot.  So I went to the kitchen and got a big glass bowl to put over it, while I figured out what to do.  But when I got back it was gone.  I looked everywhere but couldn't find it.

About that time, my wife got home, and the kids came downstairs.  I wanted to tell them to be careful - put on shoes - but not to scare them.  So I told the story in a funny way - I said the scorpion chased me into the kitchen and I stood on a chair to get away from it.  They laughed, and then I told them, "But it might still be here so let's all put on shoes to make sure, and then when you guys go to bed you'll be upstairs and the scorpion can't climb stairs."  (Not actually true but the best I could do.)

My wife started in on me, in front of the kids, blaming me for the whole thing - somehow it was my fault there was a scorpion.  I wasn't the one who had done my best to catch it, I was at fault.  She went on and on and on.  Finally I had had enough, so I cleverly retorted, "Shut up!".  But she kept on, so I yelled louder - "SHUT UP!" - so loud it drowned her out.  When she started in again, as soon as she opened her mouth, I yelled SHUT UP so loud she couldn't say anything.  Finally she shut up.  Then I turned to the kids and talked about something completely unrelated... .

This wasn't good.  Yelling wasn't a good solution to the problem.  Actually, it worked - it interrupted her raging - but from the kids' point of view, it wasn't a good thing.

Looking back, I'm not proud of how I handled it, but in the moment, I couldn't think of another way to deal with it, and I just could not put up with any more of her mouth.  The key is that I (eventually) took steps to make sure it never happened again.  For me, those steps were to not be around her any more.  I truly believe that the only way I could prevent more problems - and bigger problems - was to never be around her, without a non-family adult third party present.  I believe that her behavior left me only bad options, and that her behavior would not have changed as long as I remained in the relationship, unless she got treatment.

For you, I think it's important to take responsibility for what you did, and also to forgive yourself for mistakes you made under circumstances you should never have had to deal with.

I think it's important for you to decide what is your truth, and tell that consistently to the kids.

Maybe your truth is, "I went away to serve my country and I'm proud of what I did over there.  Some things that happened didn't hurt my body but they made it hard for me to deal with stress.  So when your mom woke me up in the middle of the night it was hard for me to deal with that and I yelled.  I'm sorry for that and I'm not going to let it happen again.  I'm going to talk more with your mom and maybe she will get help so she won't want to wake me up at night - it's OK if you guys need to wake me up for something but not to say something mean to me - and if we can figure all that out we might get back together, or if not we'll be your mom and dad but we might not live together."

Something like that - your truth not anybody else's - as clear and as focused on the kids as possible.

[formflier]

 

Maybe your truth is, "I went away to serve my country and I'm proud of what I did over there.  Some things that happened didn't hurt my body but they made it hard for me to deal with stress.  So when your mom woke me up in the middle of the night it was hard for me to deal with that and I yelled.  I'm sorry for that and I'm not going to let it happen again.  I'm going to talk more with your mom and maybe she will get help so she won't want to wake me up at night - it's OK if you guys need to wake me up for something but not to say something mean to me - and if we can figure all that out we might get back together, or if not we'll be your mom and dad but we might not live together."

Something like that - your truth not anybody else's - as clear and as focused on the kids as possible.[/quote]
That's very good advice... . I'll keep that in my hip pocket... .

Direct and to the point.  And... . it is truthful... .

[formflier]

 

So... . I sometimes still chuckle and shake my head and how many of us have similar experiences.

Another Naval Aviator buddy of mine (who got sole custody from nutso wife... . she had mulitple diagnosis)... . said it best several weeks ago when I called him.  I think this was before the spanking incident... . but I can't remember for sure.

Anyway... . he kinda laughed and said there must be a secret manual that only the "bat sh#t crazy b$tches" get access to... . because they all do the same things.  Sometimes I wonder... .

Oh by the way... . he was same guy that was straight up about saying he didn't "prove" anything about his wife... . he said your job is to shine the light consistently... . they will provide the ammo... . don't worry.

Hopefully didn't offend anyone too bad... . sometimes Naval Aviators can be a bit "frank and direct" with each other... .  

[livednlearned]

So... . I sometimes still chuckle and shake my head and how many of us have similar experiences.

Another Naval Aviator buddy of mine (who got sole custody from nutso wife... . she had mulitple diagnosis)... . said it best several weeks ago when I called him.  I think this was before the spanking incident... . but I can't remember for sure.

Anyway... . he kinda laughed and said there must be a secret manual that only the "bat sh#t crazy b$tches" get access to... . because they all do the same things.  Sometimes I wonder... .

Oh by the way... . he was same guy that was straight up about saying he didn't "prove" anything about his wife... . he said your job is to shine the light consistently... . they will provide the ammo... . don't worry.

Hopefully didn't offend anyone too bad... . sometimes Naval Aviators can be a bit "frank and direct" with each other... .  

I dunno... . someone must've translated that manual for guys. 

[formflier]

Maybe your truth is, "I went away to serve my country and I'm proud of what I did over there.  Some things that happened didn't hurt my body but they made it hard for me to deal with stress.

I'm in a mood to type... so I'll keep going on something else that I thought of.  About the best way to describe PTSD to another service person... to put it in the right perspective

So... I had the pleasure of being in command for two tours.  I tell you what... . America produces some fine men and women... . everyone should be proud of that.  The things they get asked to do... . hard stuff... .

None of them bat an eye at getting care for a wound that they can see.  So... . get shot or some shrapnel... . they will follow doctors orders exactly on how to care for that and get themselves back in fighting shape.  

Far to many of them still see a "stigma" about PTSD or mental issues.  Sometimes the system reinforces that by telling pilots they can't fly or keeping guys off the front line for a while if they fess up to stress... . nightmares... whatever.  So... . many guys "stuff it" and keep going... . and further exacerbate their (mental) wound.

Anyway... . I spent lots of time talking to my guys about proper (mental) wound care.  Some heeded the advice... . sadly some didn't.  

But... I believe... . the best way to approach this with someone is to explain, while nodding your head yes, that if you were wounded by being shot you would obviously seek care... . so why should a (mental) wound be any different.  There was no weakness on your part in getting hit with a bullet... . and none on your part for having PTSD.

Anyway... . my two cents worth.