Suspect S2BX is BPD - past week has been a nightmare.

[Matt]

I read some really good research about dads and primary custody -- it's true that dads are less likely to get primary custody. But it's also true that fewer dads ask for it. How many lawyers are contributing to that? 

Your lawyer might be feeding right into the bias.

A lot of people at the beginning of divorce are still very beaten down and passive from years of abuse. We tend to bring that demeanor into our lawyer's office. Your lawyer works for you, and has an agenda that is different than yours. You have to advocate for what you want, and make sure this person cares as much about your kids as you do. Your lawyer is going to be involved in some of the biggest, most expensive decisions of your life, impacting you and your kids for decades. It's really important that you have faith in this person, and believe he has your best interests at heart. He needs to have a strategy to help you achieve your goals, and you need to approve it and understand the how and why of it.

The strategy can involve depositions, parenting coordinators, custody evaluation, an MMPI-2 psych eval -- all of these tools and more are available to help you get what you want. Matt talks about the importance of shining sunlight on the issues you know but lawyers and judges don't. These are tools to shine sunlight, and they can be put together to create a strategy depending on how BPD presents in your wife.

Yeah, this is a perfect description of my case and many others here.

I was a mess at first, and I sent all the wrong signals.  Looking back, I should have made it clear from the beginning that I wanted primary custody and that I was ready and able to do that.  I should have gotten a good lawyer, with experience in cases like mine;  it took me almost a year to do that.  And I should have communicated to the attorney exactly what my goals were, in terms of custody, financial issues, etc., and asked her for a plan to achieve them.  I didn't do any of that til much later, and that made it much harder to get the best results.

Clear objectives are one big part of this that many parents struggle with.  It's hard to know what is realistic and what will be best for the kids.  I think attorneys may make assumptions if you're not clear about your goals, and as LnL says, many attorneys assume that a father only wants (or can handle) every other weekend with the kids.  They shouldn't make assumptions like that;  we need to figure out what will work best and make our goals clear, as soon as possible, and if the attorney isn't willing to accept our goals, he or she probably isn't the right person for the job.

[AlonelyOne]

"That's all he needed to know to default to giving my then-spouse temporary custody." 

Yup... . that's where I lose by default. I work 40 hours, and have a 2 hr+ daily commute.

She works a flexible part-time to full-time as she chooses career.


"We tend to bring that demeanor into our lawyer's office"

Yup, that's me... . I'm trying.


"an MMPI-2 psych eval"

This is the primary item I am pursuing. Whether I pursue/receive primary custody or not. I really do NOT want her to have the children alone without me as a balancing agent if she does not get diagnosed and receive treatment.

My question is, how easy is it for a smart person to game the MMPI-2.

This is a woman who is basically telling flat out lies and perversions. But I'd wager would pass a polygraph test with flying colors due to the fact that she often seems to believe herself.


Met with a second lawyer. Much more aggressive. Going to go with her. She even mentioned pursuing having my wife pay me. (Presently, she is living at home, working pretty much full time, and contributing zero income.)

[Matt]

My question is, how easy is it for a smart person to game the MMPI-2.

My ex is very intelligent and well-educated - a paralegal.  Also very crafty and able to convince people she is telling the truth when she's not.

I filed a motion to have a Custody Evaluator appointed - a Ph.D. psychologist - and he asked us both to take the MMPI-2.  I knew nothing about it but trusted that it would be good to get the information out in the open, so I took the test - takes about two hours - about 500 questions like "I am more of a morning person or more of an evening person" or "When I responsible for an important task I always do my best."  Each question by itself seems pretty innocent, but they show patterns;  for example, some people won't agree to a statement with "always" in it because they don't see things so black-and-white, and others answer the same statement "Yes" because they either see themselves as flawless or want others to see them as flawless.

Anyway, the way the test is scored is by computer, by a company that doesn't know anything except the age and sex of those taking the test.  The age and sex are important because those are taken into account in scoring;  decades of experience have taught them which responses are most common for men and women of various ages.  It's "blind" - the Custody Evaluator got back the results - he didn't score the tests.

There are several "scales" - combinations of items which show patterns related to specific issues.  One scale indicates if you have Borderline Personality Disorder, or borderline traits but not the disorder, or are in the normal range on that scale.  Another scale for narcissism, etc.

There are, if I remember correctly, three scales called "truth scales", which use three different methods to estimate whether the person is taking the test honestly or is "presenting falsely".  Again, you might do very well on those scales (I did), or you might do not so well, or your score on those scales might indicate that you are "presenting falsely".  My wife's results showed she was presenting falsely, and that went into the CE's report.

But... . he was also able to include in his report a diagnosis of "multiple psychological disorders" indicated by the MMPI-2 and supported by his own observations.  This was possible because the MMPI-2 is designed to enable diagnosis even when the individual tries to fool it.  The CE explained it to me - I'm a math guy and I think I understand it but I'm no expert and I don't think I could explain it here.

Bottom line, someone like my wife who is smart and thinks she can fool the test is just making things worse for herself.  She probably can't fool it and her attempt to fool it will become part of the result.

[ForeverDad]

That's all he needed to know to default to giving my then-spouse temporary custody.

Yup... . that's where I lose by default. I work 40 hours, and have a 2 hr+ daily commute.

Yes, and it was an excruciatingly long two year divorce while living as an alternate weekend parent.  But there was enough information exposed during the divorce for me to walk out of it with shared parenting, equal time and (my personal prize that lawyers pooh-poohed) Residential Parent for School Purposes.  I worked it out with the elementary school to allow our son to remain in class until the end of the school year.  Within a couple months she had enough incidents at school that they gave me one day's notice to get our son enrolled in my own school district.  Imagine, kicked out of kindergarten.  It took 3 more years to get custody.  My point:  It's not hopeless, not by a long shot.

This is the primary item I am pursuing. Whether I pursue/receive primary custody or not. I really do NOT want her to have the children alone without me as a balancing agent if she does not get diagnosed and receive treatment.

So who's watching her parenting while you're away at work 5 days a week, hmm?  Frankly, unless the court limits her to supervised parenting, she will have solo time with the children.  Your goal is to set up a home for you and the children where you have consistent peace and stability for as much of the children's lives as possible.

She may or may not get diagnosed, probably not if you compare to how our cases usually turn out.  In my case the CE pointedly declared in my first session he was not there to diagnose, just to make recommendations for custody and related matters.  Basically, he was telling me it's not that bad.  Months later his initial report to the court stated Mother cannot share 'her' child (his quotes!) but Father could.  He went on to say mother should immediately lose her temporary custody.  He *saw* more than he expected.  But still, no diagnosis.  Sadly, court sat on it and just went on to the next step in the divorce process.

While you can seek to get a diagnosis, you're not a doctor and so you're not qualified in the professionals' eyes to suggest anything.  Solution:  Do what the court, evaluators, agencies, CPS, etc all do, focus on the behaviors and behavior patterns.

She may or may not be ordered to therapy.  After some 8 years in court my ex finally got ordered to attend therapy - with son's children's agency!  The T put the kibosh on that, said they don't treat adults and declined to invite her to sessions.  Fortunately the order left the details up to the T and so T declined it all.  (Why order mother to go to son's sessions?  The court reasoned that mother might not have insurance or have enough money for her own sessions!  This in a country which proclaims it has the Affordable Care Act.)

This is a woman who is basically telling flat out lies and perversions. But I'd wager would pass a polygraph test with flying colors due to the fact that she often seems to believe herself.

Then it's a good thing courts don't do polygraphs.   In my case my lawyer called my ex both crazy and a sociopath, depending upon the occasion.  My ex had to gradually lose her credibility with the court.  She still has a lot of parenting, more than I had when I started as non-primary parent, she still has on her side (1) default gender preference and (2) the deferential gloves that court uses when dealing with a squeaky wheel, but... . the court has her number now, her credibility is low.

[AlonelyOne]

"So who's watching her parenting while you're away at work 5 days a week, hmm?"

a) I usually work a 4-day work week.

b) In 2013 she worked an average of 20-25 hour work week.

c) I am able to provide a significantly greater counter-balance now, than I would be able to if I only saw my kids

So it is not so much a constant observational thing. But rather my having significant presence to counter-balance their mother's influence. That will likely be greatly reduced.

My desire is to ensure that she is getting treatment, so that increased solo time is not harmful.


"She may or may not get diagnosed, probably not if you compare to how our cases usually turn out."

That may be... . I am not sure how I can get an actual diagnosis short of having her lose it, hit me, leave marks and calling the police.

Our marital counselor observed the behavior. But that doesn't result in a diagnosis either.  My hope is that enough is observed to sustain justification for all parties to receive mandated therapy.


Yes, she has all the defaults. Good presentation and charisma, intelligence, good respectable career, gender, youth, attractiveness, etc.

:-|

[Matt]

A couple of comments here that are very, very common among our members... .

"My desire is to ensure that she is getting treatment, so that increased solo time is not harmful."

This is what lots of us say, and I believe you mean it, but it's kind of like saying, "My desire is to ensure that the weather will always be nice, and my team will always win the Super Bowl."  It's possible, but not very likely, and mostly outside your control.  You would be wiser to keep that possibility in mind - at some point she might decide she wants treatment, or might ask your opinion about that, and you could say, "I think that's a good idea."  But that's about it - other than that, it's a waste of your time to focus on her getting treatment, until/unless she decides to do it.

"I am not sure how I can get an actual diagnosis short of having her lose it, hit me, leave marks and calling the police."

Well first of all, if your strategy includes violence, even if she is 100% responsible for it, it's a lousy strategy, because when the police are called - even when it's the man who was attacked and the man who calls the police - it's much more likely that you will be arrested and charged with a crime than her.  There are reasons for this - in many states the federal Violence Against Women Act is interpreted to require law enforcement to remove the man from the scene, no matter what the evidence shows, and their only way to do that may be to arrest you and charge you with a serious crime.  But the reasons don't matter;  what matters is that if there is violence, or threats, or if she accuses you of doing something wrong, even if the evidence proves you did nothing wrong, it's likely you will go to jail, and your life will get way worse and more complicated.

So your strategy should be the exact opposite:  Avoid any contact with a woman who might become violent, or might accuse you of violence or threats, unless there is a non-family adult third party present all the time.

As to the diagnosis, there is another way... .

I filed a motion with the court, asking that a Custody Evaluator be appointed - a Ph.D. psychologist who could administer objective psych evals like the MMPI-2.  The other side fought that, but the court approved the motion because of my wife's behavior, and apointed an experienced psychologist, who administered the MMPI-2 to both of us.

This enabled the psychologist to diagnose my wife with "multiple psychological disorders" including BPD.

A diagnosis of BPD and/or another psych disorder doesn't mean you will get primary custody, but it is one factor.  At that point you can probably get the court to order the other party to get treatment, but she will only benefit from it if she tells the therapist the truth, which isn't likely;  you just can't force someone to open herself to change.  But you can find evidence about the impact of BPD (or whatever) on kids, and that may help you in the custody case.

[AlonelyOne]

I have been striving to be water. Not reacting to any antagonistic comments, criticisms, etc. Allowing everything to pass through me.  And basically only engaging on practical matters.

No, my strategy isn't to involve violence. 

"other than that, it's a waste of your time to focus on her getting treatment, until/unless she decides to do it."

My concern is potential harm done to my children. That is the reason for my focus on therapy/treatment. Cause I fear without it, she'll cause emotional harm to our children.

"I filed a motion with the court, asking that a Custody Evaluator be appointed - a Ph.D. psychologist who could administer objective psych evals like the MMPI-2."

Right, this is what I'd like to do. But my understanding is that it costs around $4K-$8K. Which at the moment, I do not have.

[Matt]

You could ask around and find out what it costs there, but $4 to 8k is probably about right.  Ours cost $5k, plus $500 each for the MMPI-2s - right in the middle of your range.

I think you are wise to want therapy for your wife, and/or family therapy, and/or individual counseling for the kids.

I just think it's unlikely your wife will choose to get therapy, and work at it, and stay with it for the years needed.  Very few here have been able to persuade their partners to do that.  (In my case, even after my wife was diagnosed, and agreed in writing to get therapy, and then was ordered by the court to do it, she never did it.)

My concern is that things may get worse for you, and focusing on therapy for your wife - which is outside your control - won't make them better.