An Apology from an Exgf and trying to decide what to do

[truthbeknown]

After about 8 months of NC on my part I replied to an email my exgf sent last week.  I know that it has been really hard to go NC on one hand but the reason I opted for that was based on very childish and disrespectful behavior.  I'm not sure if my exgf is BPD or not. However, she is very ADHD and has a strong child-like personality to her.  She is very sensitive and often blames others when things go wrong.  I broke up because of her severe mistrust of me and insinuating that I was trying to "be" with other women.  Actually, it's almost if she felt that I had no willpower. She would say that because she thought I was attractive that other women would try to hit on me and it seemed that she thought i had no choice in the matter if they did.  So I broke up with her after she sent an email to pretending to be a woman who she thought was going after me and she wanted to see if I would take the bait.  To me that fact that she was 46yo and still acting like a teenager really disturbed me.  After the break up I tried to be friends and she apologized for being in a dark place.  I told her that if she ever did that again I would have no tolerance for it.   Well, guess what guys, she did it again in November of last year.   She went on a forum that i introduced her to and pretended to be some woman and see if I would take the bait again.  I thought it might be her and i asked the moderator/owner of the website to confirm my suspicions by verifying the email.  She confirmed it was her. When I confronted my exgf she denied it and went on to send me a nasty email.  So I cut her off- No Contact. 

Since then she periodically has sent emails saying nice things and asking for us to have some closure.  I hated having to cut off communication with someone that I had loved, was intimate with etc.  However, i thought it was best since it scared me how she had behaved.  I have never stopped thinking about her.  It's like I just obsessed over how i wish the parts of her that were whole and good could be there all the time or at least if her negativity showed itself that it would be something that was so extreme as enacting behavior that some teenagers might do and thinking it is acceptable.   What will always or has always baffled me is how as a lover she was the most mature and empathetic partner that I have ever had and yet she could not maintain that outside of the lover role.   

So, recently i have been going through a tough time in my life.  I had been thinking about her more (maybe the good ole days syndrome) and in a week moment I replied to one of her emails last week.  She wrote me back asking if it were possible to talk because she felt she owed me many apologies and would like to verbalize them.  I requested that she email her sentiments first.  In the past she would never email anything that she thought would "get her in trouble" (which also proved to me that she had trust issues with me).  This time, however, was different, she emailed me a sincere well thought out apology and told me she did not want to be in a relationship but she felt so bad that she completely pushed me out of her life.  She wished me well and seemed to want some closure over all of this. 

I had to admit I wanted some sort of closure too.  So I emailed back saying I was open to clearing the "negative energy" and that I would be willing to have a phone conversation.  So last night we spoke for about an hour.  She admitted how insensitive she was and how she was being selfish and focusing on her own pain and her own wounds from the past.  She told me she had thought that she dealt with the sexual abuse in her past but after the breakup it was evident that she hadn't and she sought out some help.   She told me it's almost as if she needed to lose me to realize how childish she had been and to see how her behavor drove me away.  She wasn't asking for me to be her partner, take her back or even forgive her.  She said she wanted to be able to express these things to me to help ease my burden of having to put up this boundary and she told me that she wasn't angry for me doing it- that it was sort of a gift.  I wasn't angy and did not feel triggered in any way. In fact, I felt a lot of compassion for her but I did express to her how she hurt me and how it hurt to have someone I loved and cared for be so manipulative and deceiving.   As we talked for awhile she commented on how she had a new friend all of sudden turn on her and start to "go dark" on her.  I asked her how that made her feel and she said, "now I can't trust her anymore".  I asked her how I was supposed to trust her again?  She started to get a little emotional and said that she has decided that she wants to be a woman and stop acting like a child.  She doesn't expect me to trust her but was hoping that we could be friends because we had been intimate with each other and cared for each other so she was hoping for at least that.

I am touched but still apprehensive.  I'm in my own double bind now because these are the words I longed for 8 months ago.   The voice of reason in me tells me that as much as she "wants" to be this person, she may always struggle to be this person for what ever reason.  The loving caring part of me used to give her the benefit of the doubt in past scenarios.  I still am struggling with this because I do miss her and wish she could be in this positive, reasonable when we were together.  The truth is that I still can't even think about sleeping with another woman yet.  I still miss the caring nuturing lover that I once had. 

[OutOfEgypt]

She started to get a little emotional and said that she has decided that she wants to be a woman and stop acting like a child.  She doesn't expect me to trust her but was hoping that we could be friends because we had been intimate with each other and cared for each other so she was hoping for at least that.

Run, dude.  Run.  That's great that you didn't feel triggered and everything, but you are definitely playing with fire.  BPD is a pathological disturbance in the core of who a person is.  Pathological means that the same thing will happen every time, like a pattern, a path.  And that pattern, in my experience and in the experience of many, gets deeper and worse over time.  My ex did the same thing to me over and over and over, and each time the lying got worse and her boldness all the more brazen.

And she may sincerely mean what she is saying in the moment, above.  But it won't happen.  And the whole "friends" thing... . you've gotta understand: pwBPD don't have "friends" like that.  They have minions -little ego-boosting slaves that they keep around to manipulate and keep hanging on their hook, to use when the time is right... . even if just to make themselves feel dominant.  Plus, what is likely going on is that she is trying to in some way hook you back in.  They don't want you to have closure.

You need to not listen to her words but look at the signs and listen to the truth.  If she really has BPD, she does not live in reality.  Therefore, her words will not reflect reality.  They will reflect what her distorted emotions tell her about reality and what she wants to see about herself.

[Xstaticaddict]

It sounds like you've gotten what i wish i could get from my ex. I've thought many times about what closure could look like, and for me it would be coming to a place where my ex was able to see the pain she causes to people in her life and start taking actions towards being less destructive.

I've realized through no contact and a lot of reflection on the relationship both rose tinted and bitter and eventually more calm and realistic that even if she was in therapy and making really good progress, and if i was too it would take so much effort to struggle with both of our slip ups and backslides that are bound to happen as we deal with our stuff.

What i wanted from her the whole time was to know who she was, not just do what she did thoughtlessly and then feel bad when it turns out to be self destructive BPD crazymaking. 

I feel your dilemma though, being hopeful for the intention but weary of whether she's actually capable of doing it. That was a constant thread of contention throughout my 6 years with my ex. Talk is cheap. Sounds like the only way to find out if she's sincere is to watch from a distance and see if the clouds of chaos and the trail of destruction ceases.

In my case though I'm dedicated to making myself the kind of man that will only accept a woman who is capable of taking responsibility for her life and isn't struggling with toxic behaviors, and is authentic in her nurturing, giving tendencies. That means seriously working on my own life to become the man that attracts that. I find the more dedicated i am to this mission, the less i think about reuniting with my ex down the road.

Those feelings of longing for the good sex are brutal though. I think about it daily. It'll take time but the drive gets revived.

[truthbeknown]

You need to not listen to her words but look at the signs and listen to the truth.  If she really has BPD, she does not live in reality.  Therefore, her words will not reflect reality.  They will reflect what her distorted emotions tell her about reality and what she wants to see about herself.

That's where I am hung up Egypt, i don't really know if she has BPD because I always thought people with BPD don't have the capability to reflect and take responsibility for their behavior.  I do get what you are saying about actions speak louder than words and despite my inner struggle I am just taking it easy.  As of right now, for all I know that might have been closure for her and maybe she won't contact me again.  Who knows but I have enough to work on in my life to keep me busy right now.

[truthbeknown]

It sounds like you've gotten what i wish i could get from my ex. I've thought many times about what closure could look like, and for me it would be coming to a place where my ex was able to see the pain she causes to people in her life and start taking actions towards being less destructive.

I've realized through no contact and a lot of reflection on the relationship both rose tinted and bitter and eventually more calm and realistic that even if she was in therapy and making really good progress, and if i was too it would take so much effort to struggle with both of our slip ups and backslides that are bound to happen as we deal with our stuff.

What i wanted from her the whole time was to know who she was, not just do what she did thoughtlessly and then feel bad when it turns out to be self destructive BPD crazymaking. 

I feel your dilemma though, being hopeful for the intention but weary of whether she's actually capable of doing it. That was a constant thread of contention throughout my 6 years with my ex. Talk is cheap. Sounds like the only way to find out if she's sincere is to watch from a distance and see if the clouds of chaos and the trail of destruction ceases.

In my case though I'm dedicated to making myself the kind of man that will only accept a woman who is capable of taking responsibility for her life and isn't struggling with toxic behaviors, and is authentic in her nurturing, giving tendencies. That means seriously working on my own life to become the man that attracts that. I find the more dedicated i am to this mission, the less i think about reuniting with my ex down the road.

Those feelings of longing for the good sex are brutal though. I think about it daily. It'll take time but the drive gets revived.

xstaticaddict:  Yes I think it is nice to hear it as long as it isn't what she thinks I want to hear.  She has fallen into darkness before and she does know that she does it.  The problem I had before is she wanted me to believe that I was contributing just as much to the darkness.  It was tricky because in a healthy relationship of course both parties realize that they contribute to the choas.  I don't know whether she is BPD or just heavy emotional sensitivity but either way I'm a little relieved that i don't feel like I'm blocking her messages because that didn't feel good to me. However, i have learned that i need to protect myself and she has given me the opportunity to learn that I must take care of myself and self protect myself and form healthy bounderies with the interpersonal relationships in my life. 

I also realized that my mother may have some kind of cluster disorder and she would be hot/cold to us.  So I never got the nuturing that i desired from a mother figure so I have been easily manipulated by women who show me nurturing in the beginning of a relationship only to turn it against me later.  Because of that i realized that part of me is attracted to "emeshment"  or in the past has wanted a loving approval from a woman in my life.   Combined with the fact that I'm an extrovert, I guess i was susceptible to wanting to be emeshed in a loving relationship.  This experience has taught me that I'm okay on my own even though I miss the physical cuddling, and flat out having someone to love in my life in a romantic way.  But we're all learning right? 

[Xstaticaddict]

I like the way you put it about healthy boundaries. It felt good to read that right now. I've been struggling with that with regard to both my parents lately. It's been amazing to notice their relationship styles after learning so much from this site and other related books and as a result having a lot more patience and empathy for what they went through as a couple and consequently subjected us to as kids in the battle zone.

The enmeshment thing is a big one that I've been trying to figure out as well. I feel compelled very much like a substance addiction draw towards enmeshment and having a deep connection with a woman. I feel it even when i click with someone in a conversation and my mind starts thinking of ways I can make our connection stronger. The part I'm confused about is how much of that desire to connect is healthy? I've always had terrible long term results with relationships where I helped level up the intensity right away, so i find myself intentionally not trying to "pursue" anyone. This seems a little fear based though and what you said earlier about having boundaries in place may be a big piece of the puzzle as far as converting enmeshment tendencies to a more healthy connection.

What do you think? Can there be a healthy version of enmeshment and what would that look like?

Definitely still learning.

Thanks for sharing.

[truthbeknown]

I like the way you put it about healthy boundaries. It felt good to read that right now. I've been struggling with that with regard to both my parents lately. It's been amazing to notice their relationship styles after learning so much from this site and other related books and as a result having a lot more patience and empathy for what they went through as a couple and consequently subjected us to as kids in the battle zone.

The enmeshment thing is a big one that I've been trying to figure out as well. I feel compelled very much like a substance addiction draw towards enmeshment and having a deep connection with a woman. I feel it even when i click with someone in a conversation and my mind starts thinking of ways I can make our connection stronger. The part I'm confused about is how much of that desire to connect is healthy? I've always had terrible long term results with relationships where I helped level up the intensity right away, so i find myself intentionally not trying to "pursue" anyone. This seems a little fear based though and what you said earlier about having boundaries in place may be a big piece of the puzzle as far as converting enmeshment tendencies to a more healthy connection.

What do you think? Can there be a healthy version of enmeshment and what would that look like?

Definitely still learning.

Thanks for sharing.

I think or believe that there is healthy emmshment or healthy codependancy. I've read alot about this, spoken and observed couples who have it and talked to therapists about it.  The difference between health vs unhealthy codependency from is that the couples that exhibit this WANT to be together, WANT to spend time together and yet are very able to function on their own.  They don't NEED someone to sure them up.  However, they respect each other and compliment each other. They even respect their differences.  One couple i know the woman says, "i can go out with my gf's whenever i want but if i had to choose between them and my sweetie, then i would choose him. However, if i do go out he doesn't pout and is totally capable of being with himself."  Whereas my exgf would get mad at me if I was spending time with my children without her.  She NEEDED me to include her in everything to be happy.  There were times when she would complain if I went somewhere without her but then when i invited her she declined. That push/pull was not healthy codependency it was a testing game just to see if "loved her" or "cared about her".  I think the healthy variety requires no testing. 

Now,  since i did not have a nurturing mother figure, i believe I desire or want to have a healthy relationship so much that maybe in the past it forced me to accept or look past certain behaviors in order to satisfy my own void.  So, in reference to your question to wanting or desiring a relationship: I fundamentally believe that humans are "pair bonders" and that we instictively crave to have a partner.  However, I know for me that I need to just relax and take my time.  I'm 48 so I have fears that by the time my life gets stable again (got totally rocked financially through all of this) that I'm not sure i will be able to attract a woman who I'm attracted to. In other words, now I am facing my own demons and I have to get over the emotional upset of all that i have been through.  Recently I just met a man who's a few years older than me and he was lonely so he met a woman from out of the country online.  At first (until he married her) everything was fine.  She was younger, the sex was good etc.  But after being married now for sometime, she is very emotionally abusive to him (yells at him all the time apparently) and he wishes that he had paired with a woman based on intellectual connection versus physical connection or attractiveness.

I recently started a new job and there are alot of women in my department.  Most are between 26-35 yo.  However, I think some of them are more intelligent and more mature than women that i have been with.  Of course, it's hard to tell how they would be behind the scenes. I'm just taking it all in and learning from it.  I'm on a new journey now and hopefully my desire to have a woman in my life will be balanced and not NEEDY.  So alot to learn but the exgf really stirred up some old physical longings and i do miss that very much

[Xstaticaddict]

I'm 48 so I have fears that by the time my life gets stable again (got totally rocked financially through all of this) that I'm not sure i will be able to attract a woman who I'm attracted to. In other words, now I am facing my own demons and I have to get over the emotional upset of all that i have been through. 

I recently started a new job and there are alot of women in my department.  Most are between 26-35 yo.  However, I think some of them are more intelligent and more mature than women that i have been with.  Of course, it's hard to tell how they would be behind the scenes. I'm just taking it all in and learning from it.  I'm on a new journey now and hopefully my desire to have a woman in my life will be balanced and not NEEDY.  So alot to learn but the exgf really stirred up some old physical longings and i do miss that very much

I feel the same way. I'm 37 so I kind of get that I'm in my best years barring any health issues, but development wise and career wise I feel like I'm just starting out in life. I take comfort in seeing the drastic changes in my life in the last 6 months and feel like if I keep this up for a few years and don't take the easy way out and accept a less than loving and supportive relationship out of neediness or loneliness then even if I don't have a "relationship" all my relationships will be strong and healthy which was never really a priority before as I was always looking for "the one" that could save me and that I could save.

We've both got time and feeling like my development was stunted for the last 6 years certainly was a good kick in the a$$. Good luck in your new job. I hope you make a few good friends and have a feeling of belonging and ease there.

Personally I think I'm going to enjoy the dating world and all the dead end and weird connections as much as the good ones. The thing I've enjoyed the most since escaping the eagle eyed scrutiny of my insecure ex has been feeling that I can freely communicate with anyone I want without paranoia of her losing her mind over it, and being able to make any kind of plans with the only factor being whether schedule permits.

I've met so many new and interesting women through taking dance lessons, and I'm doing the cliche of get dumped and get fit, but it genuinely has made a huge difference in the way I carry myself and the interactions I have.

I still carry a lot of sadness and self doubt and shame but there are more and more good days as time goes on.

Thanks for being there to listen and create the opportunity to think about this part of the journey from a new perspective.