Can co-parenting work when you are split black?

[Mutt]

I am looking for advice and feedback from members that can relate to my situation and advise with parallel vs co-parenting when you are split black. I have been split black for 24 months and counting by my uBPDw. I cannot say that it's all black all of the time. There are moments and communiques where I would designate as white but it plays into a narcissist need for herself and it's not for the kids or anyone else but herself. If I'm confronted with what is interpreted as a nice gesture it benefits herself by making her feel better about herself or displaying herself as a good person but this is rare.

I would describe my ex as a BPD Queen ~ very controlling and another BPD behavior is disassociation. When I say disassociation I mean lying because she can't confront her out of place feeling. What worries me is how the kids see mom and dad interact and if they will mirror that in their own relationships when they are older. I'm also worried that I'm mirroring her splitting. What I mean is, I communicate by email usually in BIFF format or I don't respond when she is out of bounds, I have count appointed boundaries, I uphold personal boundaries of steel with her and I interact with her in person for 3 minutes or less at exchanges and that's it.

I think that I have PTSD and I really cannot stand to be around her because I get severe anxiety and feelings of dread before it is exchange times. I think that the PTSD will taper off in time. I have difficulties with communicating with her due to feeling anxiety and wanting to leave as quickly as possible so I don't say much to her. Usually one line and I am gone with the kids. I trigger her sensitivity rejection and she will fire off emails and disassociate. A couple of weeks ago at an exchange she was devaluing me in front of the kids and saying that I'm crazy (projection) and  lying. She said that she was going to text her lawyer saying that my behavior was crazy at the exchange and unfortunately I did not capture this with my voice recorder. It's a threat due to her out of place feelings and I know my wife. Her bark is worse than her bite but I cannot take chances so I have to record every exchange.

Anything that would help my kids with seeing a better relationship between mom and dad, I am open to it. I feel like maybe I am too hard on her with my resolve and that I should ease up and eventually work towards co-parenting and away from parallel parenting. She is a low functioning borderline and I don't know if communication tools like SET helps in situations like these. I cannot control her splitting, control (Queen) and disassociation that is something that is her dysfunctional defense mechanism to deal with stress in her life. I'm also having a hard time with PTSD but the feelings are enhanced at exchanges 15 minutes before hand, during and up to a half an hour afterwards.

Am I too hard on her? Is it realistic to try to move towards co-parenting for the kids? I feel that for now it works best for me with the divorce and it's business now but is parallel parenting something that I may have to stick with and the idea of co-parenting is unrealistic? My estranged SD is 15 and she is my wife's first born. Her ex more than a decade later is still split black but I think that is partially due to him triggering her. I know this because she never had anything good to say about him during our marriage and she would triangulate him into persecutor and I as rescuer and I had sympathy for her and my rescuer traits would come into play. I have had the advantage to open a repetoir with his family after the split, to delve into the past and see if her behaviors were there and to convince myself that she has been mentally ill for a long time. She is Queen / Disassociates with him as well and the same issues I have with her at the present are the same controlling behaviors that were in the past with him and his daughter. He's a different person than my wife described him as all the years that I was with her. Her pattern is the same.

Thank you for reading my post and any experiences with a parent that has been split black and co-parenting will be helpful.

[livednlearned]

Hi Mutt,

Apologies for the novel! I worried about something similar with my son and have thought a lot about this over the years.

What I've learned is that we can model healthy behaviors even if we can't have a healthy relationship with our ex. If parallel parenting allows you to protect yourself and take care of yourself, then do it. But the tradeoff is that you have to work extra hard modeling the kinds of behaviors you want your kids to internalize. Because the truth is that they have to learn healthy ways to deal with conflict and stress from you -- they aren't going to learn that from their mom in all likelihood.

For example, when you get in the car after your ex has been abusive in front of the kids, and your feelings are through the roof, it's ok to say how you feel. The kids know you're feeling the effects, and they're watching to see how you cope. Whatever you do, they will learn that's something they can do too. And if you not only take care of your feelings, but make them feel less tense, they will hopefully start to internalize your example for themselves. They might start to do it when they're with their mom and she's doing the same thing to them.

A healthy way to deal with these feelings is to say, "I'm feeling tense right now, and all my muscles are tight, my heart is pounding. I might need a few minutes to collect myself. I notice I feel better when I take some big deep breaths so I'm going to do that right now." You've taught them to slow down and feel the feelings, then name them. You've taught them how to care of themselves by telling someone else how you feel, and you're doing it in a way that isn't inflicting abuse on someone else. They just saw what mom does (screams and belittles). Now they're seeing what dad does (centers himself, expresses his feelings).

You might also tell them in advance that you are going to take care of yourself at the exchanges. "I don't like when there is tension and conflict at these exchanges. What's a good way to minimize the chances of this happening? It isn't ok with me that someone yells at me and I don't like having you two experience it either. I have been thinking maybe the alternative is for me to stay seated in the car. What I have learned is that I can't change how someone else acts, but I can take care of myself. But that means you two have to get your things and come to the car. What do you think?"

I wish I had done this kind of thing earlier with my son. When I dropped off S12 at his dad's and his dad dropped him off at my place, our court order said neither parent could get out of the car. I never said anything to S12 because there was this demilitarized zone between me and N/BPDx, and I never commented on it. As a result, S12 felt extremely tense at school events when both of us were present. My T helped me learn how to manage in a healthy way, and maybe this will be useful for you.

If it was a school event, I would say before we got there, "I'm going to sit with friends, probably over on the left. Your dad is coming and he's going to sit somewhere different. After the show is over, if you want to go see him and say hi, go ahead. I get to see you more than he does, so just come find me when you're ready to go." You could see the tension visibly leave him -- he no longer had to figure out what to do about these grown-ups and their intense stress. He could just be a kid and enjoy the night. I also learned to acknowledge when he handled things well. "Your dad came to the show and neither of us expected that. I looked over at you and saw you were very tense. That's why I came over to say that I was going to sit with friends and that even though I didn't know he was coming and felt surprised, it was ok. I wanted you to have fun, and go talk to your dad during intermission, and I would see you after the show, which you did." Then I would point out how well he handled the anxiety. "You really handled that surprise very well, and quickly realized it was going to be ok. I could tell you were relaxed during the performance. It must make you feel good that you could be surprised like that and still put on a performance. It means you're resilient, because you can get yourself to a good place even when something throws you off."

On a side note, I do think you'd be better off staying in your car during the exchanges -- that way, you can tell your L (if necessary) you never get out of your car, so her allegations aren't founded. If she approaches, you turn on your recorder. If this is something you decide to do, just email your ex to say that the kids are going to move their things from her car or yours and vice versa, and that you have talked it over with them. Ask her to not approach your car. If she has any questions, she can communicate by email.

If you do this, be sure to have a conversation with the kids ahead of time. Your ex will portray you as a coward or worse, so you want to get ahead of the message. "I'm going to deal with conflict by protecting myself, and protecting you. I learned that I cannot change how someone else treats me, but I can change how I let myself be treated."

They'll get it. They might even use this in their peer relationships.  

[mywifecrazy]

I am looking for advice and feedback from members that can relate to my situation and advise with parallel vs co-parenting when you are split black. I have been split black for 24 months and counting by my uBPDw.

Let me start by saying that the BEST advice I got on these boards was from You and Matt. I was struggling TRYING to openly communicate and PARALLEL parent with my uBPDxw. It was keeping me in the FOG because she was still LYING and manipulating me and our sons. You both told me it's IMPOSSIBLE to co-parent with a disordered person that is on an emotional level of a 4 yr old. I was asking the question how do you co-parent with a person that has accused you of rape and physical abuse and continues to lie to my kids about me. The advice of NC (extreme LC do to kids) and parallel parenting was a LIFESAVER to me. It's what started me on the ROAD TO RECOVERY and got me OUT OF THE FOG! Now I can see things for WHAT THEY ARE!

When I say disassociation I mean lying because she can't confront her out of place feeling. I communicate by email usually in BIFF format or I don't respond when she is out of bounds, I have count appointed boundaries, I uphold personal boundaries of steel with her and I interact with her in person for 3 minutes or less at exchanges and that's it.

I know how you feel. Sometimes I feel guilty about NC, email ONLY communications and my personal boundary of not allowing her on my property because she is shaking up with my neighbor. I think the guilt comes on us when we envision them as a person that relates on a normal ADULT emotional level. It's understandable to look at it that way from time to time. Both you and I know the TRUTH though! THEY WILL NEVER CHANGE, NO MATTER WHAT YOU OR I DO!

I think that I have PTSD and I really cannot stand to be around her because I get severe anxiety and feelings of dread before it is exchange times. I think that the PTSD will taper off in time.

You're not alone Mutt! Every other weekend I start getting that anxious feeling 24hrs before the exchange, the shortness of breathe starts in the morning and doesn't go away till the next day. I even get that anxious feeling reading her emails. It's only been 1 yr out for me and it IS getting better. Exercise (biking for me) is a BIG stress reliever for me. I'm even going to get a punching bag to workout as recommended by my T.

Anything that would help my kids with seeing a better relationship between mom and dad, I am open to it. I feel like maybe I am too hard on her with my resolve and that I should ease up and eventually work towards co-parenting and away from parallel parenting. I'm also having a hard time with PTSD but the feelings are enhanced at exchanges 15 minutes before hand, during and up to a half an hour afterwards.

You can't OWN your X's $hit. Only she can own it.  You need to work on changing the things about YOU that need changing. Don't fall into her TRAP of feeling guilty. That's their biggest weapon to get us back into the FOG. MAINTAIN YOUR BOUNDARIES!

Your kids need to see and experience a Great and Loving relationship with their Dad. That's what YOU CAN CONTROL. If your focus goes back to her you're going to neglect your kids relationship with you. That's what you should be focusing on because it's the only thing in your control. Worrying about your X's feelings and worrying about her is being co-dependent.

If your X ever got help and changed for the better a decent co-parent relationship would develop NATURALLY not by you trying to MAKE IT HAPPEN!

Am I too hard on her? Is it realistic to try to move towards co-parenting for the kids? I feel that for now it works best for me with the divorce and it's business now but is parallel parenting something that I may have to stick with and the idea of co-parenting is unrealistic?

No your not being hard on her. Your doing something that's not easy for you but what's BEST for you and your kids! Co-parenting is unrealistic with a disordered person. If you get back into her realm of manipulation YOU will become disorderd again (like all us NON's were when in the FOG).

Matt, I do know how you feel as I get these feelings of doubt too!

Hang in there brother... . mwc

[enlighten me]

I had all sorts of dramas with my ex wife. I didn't understand about PDs and was mostly reacting to her unfair behaviour.

One day I picked my boys up and the ex had been complaining about something they had done. I decided to speak to them about it in a calm manner and see if we could get the behaviour sorted.

Both boys denied any wrong doing. The eldest was around 10 at the time and had occasionally told lies but his brother 8 never lied.

My heart melted when the 8 year old said ":)addy don't listen to Mummy she tells lies"

I had never bad mouthed their mum in front of them and his statement made me realise that as long as I set a good example to them then they would see how people should behave. Both my boys have asked to live with me rather than their mum which hasn't been possible due to working abroad on a 6 week rotation. That said it has got to the point that my eldest (12 now) has said he's had enough and cant take living with his mum anymore.

Co-parenting is difficult but if you set boundary's and limit communication to email then it can go a lot smoother. 

[Mutt]

I'm going to need to apologize as well livednlearned for the length of my post but I've been sorting through some feelings. I also feel like I have come here to vent because I haven't posted much on this board and I've been a hermit in regards to parenting   

My mind has been in one track for slightly over a year and it was defending my kids rights in court. Family court and custody is over as of two weeks ago and the court hangover is over. I've been thinking about what my next goals are. I feel resentment towards my ex and I thought that maybe those feelings of resentment are connected to parallel parenting. I've been guilty of passive-aggressiveness in the past because of my lack of boundaries and not looking out for my own needs and expecting others to know them. I would feel resentment and act out passive aggressively because I didn't know that I'm allowed to have boundaries and not worry about the other persons feelings.There's still resentment from her infidelity and I wanted to look at my feelings without distorting them and I thought maybe I'm being passive aggressive?

The replacement is not dealing with the kids well and she is too narcissistic to see that he is. I forgot to mention how many kids there are. There's 4 but SD is living with friends, mom split her black and my kids are D8, S6 and S2. He's not coping with family life. I can see that my D8 is being parentified and I try to curb that on my time and let her be a little girl and not worry about taking care of the other two kids. The replacement sleeps or will retreat into their room and go on the computer or plays Minecraft. Mom will go out and leave D8 in charge of the other 3 kids and he's home. This is coming from my daughter. I don't believe in alienating mom but I do let them vent about what's going on in their lives and these are tidbits that have been coming out over several weeks. I noticed her mothering the other two kids as well.  If I say something I fear that she will know that it's coming from D8 and she is going to split her black as well. What is the trade-off? I can't control the dysfunctional environment in my exes home and the damage is greater for a child to be split black I think. But I believe this is material that may be appropriate for another thread. I want my ex to be as far away as possible from me when her and the replacement fallout. Centering myself works here and radical acceptance. It is what it is. I'm causing myself more anxiety and stress over things that I can't control which is the future.

You might also tell them in advance that you are going to take care of yourself at the exchanges. "I don't like when there is tension and conflict at these exchanges. What's a good way to minimize the chances of this happening? It isn't ok with me that someone yells at me and I don't like having you two experience it either. I have been thinking maybe the alternative is for me to stay seated in the car. What I have learned is that I can't change how someone else acts, but I can take care of myself. But that means you two have to get your things and come to the car. What do you think?"

I've been wondering how to deal with this and what can I tell them that isn't going over the line and stays within a healthy zone? I do not like that the kids see mom emasculate their father in front of them. I've learned not to take her projected feelings on myself and it comes down to PTSD. It looks and feels strange at exchanges when the kids are jumping up and down and excited while mom is devaluing dad and dad is a shield. I wouldn't describe it as raging but she had a clear rage at me once when she was going through an extinction burst. I start talking about their week and how they've been. This is a concern for me because kids mirror their parents and I'm not sure if I was doing the right thing with not bringing attention on mom's behaviors at the exchanges? I think that I don't give them enough credit.

If it was a school event, I would say before we got there, "I'm going to sit with friends, probably over on the left. Your dad is coming and he's going to sit somewhere different. After the show is over, if you want to go see him and say hi, go ahead. I get to see you more than he does, so just come find me when you're ready to go." You could see the tension visibly leave him -- he no longer had to figure out what to do about these grown-ups and their intense stress. He could just be a kid and enjoy the night. I also learned to acknowledge when he handled things well. "Your dad came to the show and neither of us expected that. I looked over at you and saw you were very tense. That's why I came over to say that I was going to sit with friends and that even though I didn't know he was coming and felt surprised, it was ok. I wanted you to have fun, and go talk to your dad during intermission, and I would see you after the show, which you did."

I'm glad that you have said this. I can't tell you if the kids have been tense, they seem alright when they are with me but I cannot say for sure because I have been wrapped up in my own anxiety with my ex. We recently had a family BBQ at the school. Ex went with replacement and the kids last year and this year I had told her it's my turn and that I wanted to go with the kids. She volunteered and she was there. I didn't want to miss out with going with the kids and I can't control if she is going to volunteer or not. It was a BBQ and they had bouncy castles for the kids and she was working at one of them. I was tense at that the one that she was at. If I say anything to her it's a short line and that's it.

She has a lot of friends at the school and I went through a smear campaign. I went to two school events since the split, the first one she was not there (Christmas 2013) but I was a little worried about being judged by her friends but I try not to let her distortions get the best of me. They are unmitigated stories about me and it's their choice if they want to be gullible and buy into it. It pains me when I see some mutual friends that we had in the marriage see me and freeze up and look the other way but that feeling passes over me quickly. It is their choice and I have lost respect for them because they choose to listen to one side of the story and not both sides of the story. It's exposing myself to mutual environments and I think it's getting over that initial anxiety of what people think after the split.

On a side note, I do think you'd be better off staying in your car during the exchanges -- that way, you can tell your L (if necessary) you never get out of your car, so her allegations aren't founded. If she approaches, you turn on your recorder. If this is something you decide to do, just email your ex to say that the kids are going to move their things from her car or yours and vice versa, and that you have talked it over with them. Ask her to not approach your car. If she has any questions, she can communicate by email.

If you do this, be sure to have a conversation with the kids ahead of time. Your ex will portray you as a coward or worse, so you want to get ahead of the message. "I'm going to deal with conflict by protecting myself, and protecting you. I learned that I cannot change how someone else treats me, but I can change how I let myself be treated."

She is literally right across the street so I walk over there. I was doing both. I had the kids come over to the corner of the complex and I did on a few occasions go up to the door. On my part, I was seeing how she would reciprocate and I thought maybe it was better that I go to the door for the kids. I'm moving over this summer. She wanted to come to my place and pick up the kids when it was time for the kids to come back to back home to her. She had wanted that in the court order. I gave her a couple of small concessions but 95% of what is in the court order are my demands. I was getting them and dropping them off and now she wants to come to my door half of the time.

Let me start by saying that the BEST advice I got on these boards was from You and Matt. I was struggling TRYING to openly communicate and PARALLEL parent with my uBPDxw. It was keeping me in the FOG because she was still LYING and manipulating me and our sons. You both told me it's IMPOSSIBLE to co-parent with a disordered person that is on an emotional level of a 4 yr old. I was asking the question how do you co-parent with a person that has accused you of rape and physical abuse and continues to lie to my kids about me. The advice of NC (extreme LC do to kids) and parallel parenting was a LIFESAVER to me. It's what started me on the ROAD TO RECOVERY and got me OUT OF THE FOG! Now I can see things for WHAT THEY ARE!

Thanks mywifecrazy. I think that what we are all mutually dealing with is we are dealing with low functioning borderlines. Borderline personality disorder is complex and it is a spectrum disorder. From my experience so far with my ex is that there is really no co-parenting that comes from her side. Co would mean both?

My ex is Queen. My way or the highway. Don't let Queen have control. It's not say to have her in a one down position but I should not have to put myself in a one down position either. She is playing out her insecurities through co-parenting. If I try to co-parent with her she projects her negative feelings in what is going on in her life with her replacement or whatever other stresses in life on me or she is trying to control me. Conflict is secondary but I choose to get off of the emotional roller-coaster. As a human being I have a fundamental right to be treated with respect and live my life happily without her insecurities inteferring with my happiness.

I agree mywifecrazy that co-parenting with my low functioning ex is not possible because she tries to throw up FOG.

You're not alone Mutt! Every other weekend I start getting that anxious feeling 24hrs before the exchange, the shortness of breathe starts in the morning and doesn't go away till the next day. I even get that anxious feeling reading her emails. It's only been 1 yr out for me and it IS getting better. Exercise (biking for me) is a BIG stress reliever for me. I'm even going to get a punching bag to workout as recommended by my T.

Parallel parenting with my ex gives me a buffer, emotional well-being. I don't like PTSD but it would be far worse to be on her ups and downs with her FOG. It comes down to the needs of the kids and I need to be emotionally healthy for them and focused on them and not worried about her insecurities I agree. My interpretation of being split black is that she needs to have someone in her life to be in this position. I am one of those people. It gives her a scapegoat so that she can have an excuse for her maladaptive coping skills and inappropriate behaviors.

No your not being hard on her. Your doing something that's not easy for you but what's BEST for you and your kids! Co-parenting is unrealistic with a disordered person. If you get back into her realm of manipulation YOU will become disorderd again (like all us NON's were when in the FOG).

Matt, I do know how you feel as I get these feelings of doubt too!

Hang in there brother... . mwc

It's learning to go with instincts and not second guess. It is unfortunate but we are talking about a disordered person. It would be something different if she was self aware enough and she made a choice to get help for herself but she isn't and it's her choice to make that decision or not. She chooses not to. I have compassion for her and empathy but that's where it ends. Her actions are her own.

I had never bad mouthed their mum in front of them and his statement made me realise that as long as I set a good example to them then they would see how people should behave. Both my boys have asked to live with me rather than their mum which hasn't been possible due to working abroad on a 6 week rotation.

I agree enlightenme. I believe that the kids have a right to have unconditional love for their mother. It is their mother after all and I chose to rise above and not play the same games. I have a feeling it's going to be going this way for my kids as well. My daughter has a strong bond with me. She often says that she likes it at my house more than at her moms because things stay the same at dad's (routine) and things go very quickly at her house. She is smart and mature for an 8 year old. She is burdened at her house with responsibilities and she has some at my house but I let her relax and be a kid. She trusts me, I think she is going to choose to stay with dad later on when she is legally old enough to make that choice.

[livednlearned]

I feel resentment towards my ex and I thought that maybe those feelings of resentment are connected to parallel parenting. I've been guilty of passive-aggressiveness in the past because of my lack of boundaries and not looking out for my own needs and expecting others to know them. I would feel resentment and act out passive aggressively because I didn't know that I'm allowed to have boundaries and not worry about the other persons feelings.There's still resentment from her infidelity and I wanted to look at my feelings without distorting them and I thought maybe I'm being passive aggressive?

Do you mean that you are getting something out of the parallel parenting, a feeling that the briskness and distance is hurting your ex, and you enjoy it? Sorry if I am misunderstanding this. Even so, it's a pretty big deal to recognize this. I also think that when we figure this stuff out, there is usually a big shift in our behavior soon to follow.

Whatever the answer is, I believe it's ok to tell your kids how you feel, as long as you aren't expecting them to take care of you. It's ok to say that you feel angry, that you aren't always sure how to do things. We think our kids don't know, but they do -- then when we say it, they're thinking, "Yah, we know." I regret that I didn't do this earlier -- fear of court really messed me up here. What I learned to do was to focus on what I was modeling to my kid. It was really hard to stay focused on my feelings, and to not let the conversation drift to what N/BPDx was doing. That's the fine art of it, and it's hard. Sometimes I would admit that I was feeling anxious, and then say, "I feel really anxious right now and it's making it hard to enjoy my time with you. Sometimes when people are anxious, everyone around them can feel it. You can let me know if you feel this way too. Maybe we can come up with a way to make the anxiety go away. How about we play a game together?" Your kids are different ages, so you'll have to adapt this to the different ages.

If you ever feel you messed up, you can say, "Hey guys. I don't feel good about what I said earlier. I am angry about something, and it's ok to feel angry. But it's not ok to blame someone else for how I feel. I was wrong to mention your mom because that might make you feel sad." They'll tell you if it did or not. Kids with BPD parents don't hear that parent admit making mistakes often, or apologizing, or taking responsibility. And all those things make people feel more connected. It's showing your kids that you can be vulnerable, and the payoff is connection.

What is the trade-off? I can't control the dysfunctional environment in my exes home and the damage is greater for a child to be split black I think. But I believe this is material that may be appropriate for another thread. I want my ex to be as far away as possible from me when her and the replacement fallout. Centering myself works here and radical acceptance. It is what it is. I'm causing myself more anxiety and stress over things that I can't control which is the future.

You can't control the dysfunctional environment over there, but you can help your kids cope with it. My son stopped talking about what things were like at his dad's, which was really hard for me. Eventually, I worked with a therapist to figure out how to help him, and realized that when I stopped talking about his dad, S12 thought that meant we can't talk about him. So he was coming home and stuffing all his feelings, and had no one to talk to about them. It rips me up thinking about it. But eventually, I figured out how to draw him out and it lifted an enormous burden. Sometimes you have to build up to this and for you, deal with it in different ways with each of your kids because their ages are different.

With your D8, maybe you can encourage her to express how she feels being parentified. Let her know that you can't change what her mom does, but when she's with you, you're the parent, and D8's job is to be a kid. Let her know that no matter how hard it is at mom's, she will get a break when she's with you. I really understand what you mean when you say that the past year has been about working through your own feelings, and PTSD makes it hard to lift your head up and see what's happening around you. As you start to heal, your empathy for your kids is going to deepen, and some of this will come more naturally to you. Once you start feeling more empathy, it's a lot easier to know what to say and how to protect them.

I do not like that the kids see mom emasculate their father in front of them. I've learned not to take her projected feelings on myself and it comes down to PTSD. It looks and feels strange at exchanges when the kids are jumping up and down and excited while mom is devaluing dad and dad is a shield. I wouldn't describe it as raging but she had a clear rage at me once when she was going through an extinction burst. I start talking about their week and how they've been. This is a concern for me because kids mirror their parents and I'm not sure if I was doing the right thing with not bringing attention on mom's behaviors at the exchanges? I think that I don't give them enough credit.

One thing you can do when your ex does this is to keep repeating "No" or "Stop" over and over and over until she does. No matter what she says, repeat No or Stop. Say it assertively. If you feel steady enough, maybe say something for the sole purpose of modeling healthy behavior for your kids, "I don't let people talk to me this way." You can also tell your kids in advance that you notice their mom sometimes yells at your during exchanges. Tell them that if she does, you are going to do xy and z so they know ahead of time that this is all part of the plan. After you regroup with them, check in to make sure everyone is doing ok, how was their day, etc.

She is literally right across the street so I walk over there. I was doing both. I had the kids come over to the corner of the complex and I did on a few occasions go up to the door. On my part, I was seeing how she would reciprocate and I thought maybe it was better that I go to the door for the kids. I'm moving over this summer. She wanted to come to my place and pick up the kids when it was time for the kids to come back to back home to her. She had wanted that in the court order. I gave her a couple of small concessions but 95% of what is in the court order are my demands. I was getting them and dropping them off and now she wants to come to my door half of the time.

Either way, it's ok to tell the kids how you plan to handle this, and get them on board. "Sometimes when your mom comes to the door, she gets angry. That makes me feel bad, and I think it makes you guys feel bad too. I let your mom know that if she gets angry when she comes over, and can't use her nice words, then she goes into time out and I will close the door. You guys just put your stuff away and get ready to play a game and tell me all about your week."  

My ex is Queen. My way or the highway. Don't let Queen have control. It's not say to have her in a one down position but I should not have to put myself in a one down position either. She is playing out her insecurities through co-parenting. If I try to co-parent with her she projects her negative feelings in what is going on in her life with her replacement or whatever other stresses in life on me or she is trying to control me.

I think queen is a form of narcissism, and depending on the severity, it can be very difficult to coparent. You may eventually heal some of your wounds to the point where you can handle her stuff with less trauma, but for now, it's ok to focus on your boundaries. If that means parallel parenting, then so be it. You'll know if and when coparenting is going to work for you.

I believe that the kids have a right to have unconditional love for their mother. It is their mother after all and I chose to rise above and not play the same games.

What I learned these past four years is that I am ambivalent about how my son feels about his dad. But I feel very strongly that S12 understands that certain behaviors are not right. When you internalize that for yourself through your own healing, it becomes crystal clear in your parenting -- you can disparage the behavior. The key is to be very grounded in your own healing, because kids can smell a mile away when you have an agenda. The agenda needs to be helping them navigate their feelings, and learning to have boundaries. They'll put total trust in you if you consistently do that, or ask for a do-over when you slip up.

[Turkish]

my kids are D8, S6 and S2. He's not coping with family life. I can see that my D8 is being parentified and I try to curb that on my time and let her be a little girl and not worry about taking care of the other two kids. The replacement sleeps or will retreat into their room and go on the computer or plays Minecraft. Mom will go out and leave D8 in charge of the other 3 kids and he's home.

Freudian slip, Mutt?

One thing you can do when your ex does this is to keep repeating "No" or "Stop" over and over and over until she does. No matter what she says, repeat No or Stop. Say it assertively.

My T told me something like this. If my Ex was doing something weird, to say, "What are you doing, Ex?" If she kept doing, it, to repeat myself until she stepped back.

Oddly, my Ex used to tell me if she was doing one of her smoldering rages to tell her "knock it off!" I never could wrap my head around treating a 30-something woman like a 4 year old, pluss, I was triggered by FOO with uBPD mom's anger.

Thanks for posting, Mutt. I am processing a lot of what is said here, especially about it being ok to show our kids how we feel. Many of us were probably invalidated in that manner as children ourselves, and we may have taken it into adulthood.

[Mutt]

Do you mean that you are getting something out of the parallel parenting, a feeling that the briskness and distance is hurting your ex, and you enjoy it? Sorry if I am misunderstanding this. Even so, it's a pretty big deal to recognize this. I also think that when we figure this stuff out, there is usually a big shift in our behavior soon to follow.

I think that I may even be misunderstanding this because I'm sorting through my feelings. In the context of passive-aggressive behavior I will give an example of it in the marriage. I knew that there was something fundamentally wrong in the r/s and the environment was not healthy for everyone including the kids. I was enmeshed with my ex and I didn't have the courage to end the r/s. I knew that things were bad in the devaluation phase and that it was going into a very bad place. I couldn't bring myself to end the marriage and I left it to her devices to end it. It's not an act that I got pleasure or enjoyment out of, but I believe that quantifies as passive-aggressiveness?

I feel resentment for my ex because of the audacity of how she expects everyone around her to buy into her dissociative behaviors. What I mean is, she doesn't understand or see her behaviors and it feels as if you're supposed to pretend as nothing happened. The affair still hurts. Affairs happen with non disordered as well but it's the inability to express how her impulsive behaviors were hurtful. I feels like a barrier has been put up. I also don't think that I'm completely indifferent to her behaviors with her name calling, emotional immaturity and projections and it pushes all of that nonsense as far away as possible. I don't get enjoyment out of it livednlearned, I feel like I can't tell her how I feel about her actions and behaviors and that parallel parenting is speaking for my feelings with distance and isolation. It feels like I'm giving her the silent treatment and I apologize if I sound confusing. On the plus side it's putting down my foot with her abusive behavior and takes away opportunities for her to create conflict. It is disappointing because it's not how I envisioned divorce and parenting after the split. I hope I'm making a little more sense

You can let me know if you feel this way too. Maybe we can come up with a way to make the anxiety go away. How about we play a game together?" Your kids are different ages, so you'll have to adapt this to the different ages.

I don't have the kids take care of me no. I believe that D8 has to do that at her home and at my place I want her to let her hair down and relax. I have noticed since I have gotten shared custody that the kids spirits have lifted, they are happier. I've been using tools that I didn't know before like validating their feelings and I notice a positive difference. I've been in better spirits as well and I have a sense of humour and I joke around with the kids a lot and I know they are young and impressionable but my daughter enjoys it. She says that my BIL and I are really funny and it brings their spirits up.

If you ever feel you messed up, you can say, "Hey guys. I don't feel good about what I said earlier. I am angry about something, and it's ok to feel angry. But it's not ok to blame someone else for how I feel.

Yes I have been doing this with my kids because I want them to trust me. It's OK if I messed up, I own up to it with the kids and I apologize and explain to them that what I am feeling is not about them, it has to do with something else and it's not how I feel about them or for them to associate their feelings with mine if I feel anger. If they go to mom and mom says something funny and not quite honest and dad is honest about how he feels and doesn't blame someone else, they will trust dad and come to dad.

You can't control the dysfunctional environment over there, but you can help your kids cope with it. My son stopped talking about what things were like at his dad's, which was really hard for me. Eventually, I worked with a therapist to figure out how to help him, and realized that when I stopped talking about his dad, S12 thought that meant we can't talk about him. So he was coming home and stuffing all his feelings, and had no one to talk to about them. It rips me up thinking about it. But eventually, I figured out how to draw him out and it lifted an enormous burden. Sometimes you have to build up to this and for you, deal with it in different ways with each of your kids because their ages are different.

This is a difficult area for me at the moment because of the way that I feel. I don't initiate a conversation about mom because I feel very awkward with talking about the replacement and I feel embarrassed about what she is putting my kids through. If they talk about mom, I let them talk about mom and I don't say anything bad about mom but I don't say much because it's not a subject I like talking about which connects to how I feel about her. I didn't think that by saying nothing, it encourages the kids to not say anything about her either and that they don't feel like they can talk about her. That makes sense.

With your D8, maybe you can encourage her to express how she feels being parentified. Let her know that you can't change what her mom does, but when she's with you, you're the parent, and D8's job is to be a kid. Let her know that no matter how hard it is at mom's, she will get a break when she's with you.

Yes I have had this conversation with her. I told her my place is for her to relax and I'm the parent and I do the parenting. She says she is bored sometimes because she is less busy than when she is at her house with the responsibilities she has with S6 and S2. I feel resentment towards my ex and the replacement for what they are putting her through. He is a 36 year old man, why are you have an 8 year old watching out for the kids? It gets my collar hot thinking about it, because I can't protect them all of the time.

One thing you can do when your ex does this is to keep repeating "No" or "Stop" over and over and over until she does. No matter what she says, repeat No or Stop. Say it assertively. If you feel steady enough, maybe say something for the sole purpose of modeling healthy behavior for your kids, "I don't let people talk to me this way." You can also tell your kids in advance that you notice their mom sometimes yells at your during exchanges. Tell them that if she does, you are going to do xy and z so they know ahead of time that this is all part of the plan. After you regroup with them, check in to make sure everyone is doing ok, how was their day, etc.

Thank you for the advice. If I say something my ex talks over me, it's what she does. I agree, I think letting them know ahead of time and what to expect is the healthiest thing to do. You're right. I was scared that I may be alienating mom by pointing out the behaviors.

Either way, it's ok to tell the kids how you plan to handle this, and get them on board. "Sometimes when your mom comes to the door, she gets angry. That makes me feel bad, and I think it makes you guys feel bad too. I let your mom know that if she gets angry when she comes over, and can't use her nice words, then she goes into time out and I will close the door. You guys just put your stuff away and get ready to play a game and tell me all about your week."

I really needed to hear this. I feel isolated at times from parallel parenting. I'm on my own.

I think queen is a form of narcissism, and depending on the severity, it can be very difficult to coparent. You may eventually heal some of your wounds to the point where you can handle her stuff with less trauma, but for now, it's ok to focus on your boundaries. If that means parallel parenting, then so be it. You'll know if and when coparenting is going to work for you.

I was scared of teaching the kids all or nothing thinking with parallel parenting or mirroring her splitting. It is hell trying to co-parent with a Queen. I can't say anything without it triggering her because we're not going with what she needs. Life is somewhere in the middle and I didn't want to go all the way to one side of the scale but I don't have a choice. It removes conflict and gives me a chance to heal.

The key is to be very grounded in your own healing, because kids can smell a mile away when you have an agenda. The agenda needs to be helping them navigate their feelings, and learning to have boundaries. They'll put total trust in you if you consistently do that, or ask for a do-over when you slip up.

You're right. I've been in protector mode agenda for a year fighting in court with mom and I found it emotionally difficult. I'm trying to find my way. Thank you for your guidance in this regard.  

[Mutt]

Freudian slip, Mutt?

I see what I did there  

Thanks for posting, Mutt. I am processing a lot of what is said here, especially about it being ok to show our kids how we feel. Many of us were probably invalidated in that manner as children ourselves, and we may have taken it into adulthood.

Thank you Turk. I was adopted. I have met my bio mom and she works with children in mental health and she helps me tremendously but I think she lacks the practical experience. My adoptive parents live quite distant from me and my father is dysfunctionial. I can't have a conversation with him for more than 2 minutes on the phone because if I mention anything about parenting or what is going on my life, he doesn't know what to say and he is uncomfortable and rushes me off of the phone. My SM has a kind heart and she means well but I can't really go to her either for parenting advice. Then there's my ex.

I feel like I'm alone with parenting. It's hard being a single parent at times but as difficult as it is, my babies are with me half of the time and single parent or not, they are the world to me.

[Turkish]

I think that I may even be misunderstanding this because I'm sorting through my feelings. In the context of passive-aggressive behavior I will give an example of it in the marriage. I knew that there was something fundamently wrong in the r/s and the environment was not healthy for everyone including the kids. I was enmeshed with my ex and I didn't have the courage to end the r/s. I knew that things were bad in the devaluation phase and that it was going into a very bad place. I couldn't bring myself to end the marriage and I left it to her devices to end it. It's not an act that I got pleasure or enjoyment out of, but I believe that quantifies as passive-aggressiveness?

That describes how my r/s deteriorated, the dynamic on both of our sides... . even with my more Waifish uBPD.

What I get from a lot of the rest that you said is that you are thinking that your parallel parenting style may be you just exhibiting passive-aggressiveness in a similar way in which you exhibited it in your marriage. Correct me if I am wrong. Maybe there is something to that, but who says you have to co-parent instead of parallel parent?

You've been through a legal hell this past year to finally get joint custody of your kids. You did what you thought was right, and you are still doing it   If the kids are better now, then who is to say that what you are doing is wrong or needs to be changed? One of the articles on this board even says that parallel parenting for at least the first year is a good thing. Have you seen this thread, Mutt?

Shared Parenting  

"Parallel parenting stops the bleeding... . "

I think it's great to examine our own behaviors, and certainly it's natural to keep processing our past relationships for a while, which can be triggered by continually having to deal with our Exes due to children. Perhaps, though, we can step back and view:

1. What's best for the kids?

2. Is what we seem to be doing in their best interests?

3. How do we measure this whether we are doing 1 and 2 correctly? Viewing their behaviors.

By all that you have said, I think you've got a good handle on #3 at this point. The advice others have given about the dynamic shown to the kids is good gravy and advice on raising the children more healthily.  

[livednlearned]

In the context of passive-aggressive behavior I will give an example of it in the marriage. I knew that there was something fundamentally wrong in the r/s and the environment was not healthy for everyone including the kids. I was enmeshed with my ex and I didn't have the courage to end the r/s. I knew that things were bad in the devaluation phase and that it was going into a very bad place. I couldn't bring myself to end the marriage and I left it to her devices to end it. It's not an act that I got pleasure or enjoyment out of, but I believe that quantifies as passive-aggressiveness?

Maybe more conflict-avoidant? I think of passive-aggressiveness as a deliberate way to mask aggression. Meaning, you are angry at someone, but don't want them to know you're angry, so you hurt them in more covert ways. Say you're mad at your wife during the marriage, but instead of expressing your anger directly, you pretend you forgot to pick up medication she asked you to get at the store. That way you hurt her without looking like you're angry. Not saying you aren't capable of being passive aggressive, but the example you gave sounds more conflict avoidant.

I feel like I can't tell her how I feel about her actions and behaviors and that parallel parenting is speaking for my feelings with distance and isolation. It feels like I'm giving her the silent treatment and I apologize if I sound confusing. On the plus side it's putting down my foot with her abusive behavior and takes away opportunities for her to create conflict. It is disappointing because it's not how I envisioned divorce and parenting after the split.

You divorced someone with BPD, which might be one of the hardest things anyone can do. You have kids with her, and they're young and struggling. You recently had a bad experience with your lawyer in court after a long, protracted year-long battle. Your family isn't really able to support you emotionally. And, on top of everything, your ex lives across the street with your replacement. Parallel parenting is a way to steady yourself and take care of you. Sometimes when people like us take care of ourselves we feel guilty -- we feel it's selfish. You seem to be thinking your behavior is passive-aggressiveness instead of selfishness, but it has the same effect. You end up feeling bad taking care of yourself. When someone says take care of yourself, what comes to mind? Guilt? Do you wave it off? Do you feel relief? Do you feel grief?

Taking care of yourself isn't just putting your feet up and having a beer at the end of the day. It's believing that you deserve to take care of yourself. Like putting some emotional and psychological distance between your abuser. You won't stay stuck here, I promise. It sounds like the move will put some physical distance between you and your ex? That may do surprising things for your healing.

[Mutt]

Correct me if I am wrong. Maybe there is something to that, but who says you have to co-parent instead of parallel parent?

You're absolutely right Turkish. I got that strange look from her L because I was Pro Se for the last bit and her L and my L didn't know what parallel parenting was. Her L was explaining to me that it's like this after the split but things get better down the road. I wouldn't listen to it and stuck to my guns. I got the look from her as if I'm not getting it and I'm the problem  I told her L I've gone through countless marriage counsellors and I'm done listening to all of it. I'm not extending olive branches anymore, it has to be this way.

Have you seen this thread, Mutt?

Shared Parenting  

"Parallel parenting stops the bleeding... . "

I think it's great to examine our own behaviors, and certainly it's natural to keep processing our past relationships for a while, which can be triggered by continually having to deal with our Exes due to children. Perhaps, though, we can step back and view:

1. What's best for the kids?

2. Is what we seem to be doing in their best interests?

3. How do we measure this whether we are doing 1 and 2 correctly? Viewing their behaviors.

By all that you have said, I think you've got a good handle on #3 at this point. The advice others have given about the dynamic shown to the kids is good gravy and advice on raising the children more healthily.  

I have not seen the thread and thank you for pointing it out. I will check it. I've been so focused on court and I realize that my priorities and attention is needed elsewhere. I thought that I had a handle on this on my own and that I didn't need help. It makes me realize that I don't have all the answers and parenting when a parent is mentally ill has it's own set of challenges that come with it. Thank you.

In the context of passive-aggressive behavior I will give an example of it in the marriage. I knew that there was something fundamentally wrong in the r/s and the environment was not healthy for everyone including the kids. I was enmeshed with my ex and I didn't have the courage to end the r/s. I knew that things were bad in the devaluation phase and that it was going into a very bad place. I couldn't bring myself to end the marriage and I left it to her devices to end it. It's not an act that I got pleasure or enjoyment out of, but I believe that quantifies as passive-aggressiveness?

YES! As I read through that line I heard my sister's voice "Mutt you don't like conflict" She has said that several times over the years but it's true, I don't like conflict. I felt guilt because I thought I was passive-aggressive. Court is difficult but I hated it because I wanted to avoid conflict as much as possible, but I had no choice as much as I wanted to avoid conflict. I had to go to bat for the kids no matter how much I despised it. It felt like it was against my personality but the stakes were too important, it felt like hell but I had to do it.

You seem to be thinking your behavior is passive-aggressiveness instead of selfishness, but it has the same effect. You end up feeling bad taking care of yourself. When someone says take care of yourself, what comes to mind? Guilt? Do you wave it off? Do you feel relief? Do you feel grief?

Taking care of yourself isn't just putting your feet up and having a beer at the end of the day. It's believing that you deserve to take care of yourself. Like putting some emotional and psychological distance between your abuser. You won't stay stuck here, I promise. It sounds like the move will put some physical distance between you and your ex? That may do surprising things for your healing.

Taking care of myself feels alien to me, it's something that I struggle with but I try not to feel guilt I'm the caretaker/ rescuer type of personality. I try taking care of others situations and needs and I tend to neglect my own needs. I've been working at it and I try to feel less guilt because I have a right to take care of myself. I think the move and the distance from my abuser will help because I don't have to be reminded as much. It will take time to heal, but seeing the replacement from time to time with my kids is tough. Seeing her triggers PTSD. I'm glad that I won't get stuck here.