Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 28, 2024, 01:34:58 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Parents! Get help here!
Saying "I need help" is a huge first step. Here is what to do next.
112
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: So sick of that computer Now porn.  (Read 540 times)
mama72
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Posts: 135



« on: June 30, 2014, 11:14:08 PM »

I swear most of the conflicts with my BPDd17 are over her computer/cellphone. There would be such peace if they were both gone, or at least used responsibly.

After telling her to get the nudity off of her blog, that she went behind our backs and started, she sassed back that it was "art". Well, low and behold, I go to  her room tonight to give her meds, door was open and I knocked, and on her computer is 3 naked women fondling each other, lesbian porn. Oh yeah, my dd says she is a lesbian now, identify issues over and over again.

I was pissed. How many times do I have to tell her that I do not approve of this filth in my home. For goodness sake, her 7 year old sister could have easily walked in and saw that pic on her computer screen. She has been fought so many times looking at inappropriate material on all of the computers in our house. I suppose the next thing will be sex or porn addiction. Just got over a substance addiction situation, guess it is time for the next shoe to drop. I just can't catch a break.

I took her computer, but she took out the battery saying, "I don't want you to read any of my writing". Ya right, like I would want to read more poems about the wicked mother, her gf obsession, self harm and drug use glorification. No thanks. I bet there is some other shady content on the computer. I could just plug it in and look, she was just making a point. Before I took it, she said, "just take away my wifi, I will just take it to my dads, I need it for work." Totally trying to control what happened. I know many here will think I handled this poorly, but damn it, this is my home, I do not want that filth in it, for my young child to possibly see and I don't think it is healthy for my dd17 either. If it were a son looking a naked pictures, I would do the same thing. But DD thinks she is so smart, calling it "art", that in that case, it is no biggie. More pathological lying.

Forgot to add that this weekend I asked her to remove the other nude photos from her blog, she pushed and pushed and kept giving me a bunch of bs, she wanted a fight. I did not give it to her. I used my SET, then I told her to show the pics to her dad and see what he says. Her tune changed very quickly.  In our text exchanges she called me controlling, manipulative, non-communicative, unsupportive. I did not once name call or attack her.

Most of this is going on while I am in a doctor's waiting room to get a sore throat looked at. During my wait, this is what came up on her blog:

“Most adult children of toxic parents grow up feeling tremendous confusion about what love means and how it’s supposed to feel. Their parents did extremely unloving things to them in the name of love. They came to understand love as something chaotic, dramatic, confusing, and often painful—something they had to give up their own dreams and desires for. Obviously, that’s not what love is all about. Loving behaviour doesn’t grind you down, keep you off balance, or create feelings of self-hatred. Love doesn’t hurt, it feels good. Loving behaviour nourishes your emotional well-being. When someone is being loving to you, you feel accepted, cared for, valued, and respected. Genuine love creates feelings of warmth, pleasure, safety, stability, and inner peace.”

I instantly break out in tears running down my face as I sit in the waiting room. DD knew I was going to check blog to see if pics were off and she added this post for me to see. I felt like a dagger had been shoved through my heart….yet again, but this time different. I texted her back that I would no longer be checking her blog, I am done. I cannot take another blow like that. Of course, she swears post was not put there for me to see, it was for another friend. Right, that is not how her blog works, besides, all of her friend's mom are saints and they are so cool, and they just love her.

Anyway, to make a long story longer, Seeing that pic on her computer tonight was the last straw. She is probably on the phone with her dad right now, planning an exit strategy, telling him how I just up and decided to take her computer for no good reason, how unstable and emotionally abusive I am.

Lord help me for what is to come.
Logged
Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders
tristesse
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Posts: 410


Let your Beauty Unfold.


« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2014, 09:12:17 AM »

mama72, this is quite sad, but such familiar behavior. You definitely have your hands full with this one. I personally do  not condone pornography, so please do not mis-understand what I am about to say here. I think this is a battle you may choose  to either fight or let go. I would not be able to allow nude pics of my dd on the internet, it would be a battle I chose to fight, but if she is curious and looking at nudity and lesbian porn, I am not sure that I would totally fight that battle. I would not encourage her to do so, and would make it abundantly clear that I did not approve, but would probably tell her if  that is something she feels she needs to do, she needs to be certain that it is kept completely private and that there would be no way for younger sibling to accidentally stumble onto it. I have just learned that sometimes we have to take a breath, and turn away from the things we don't approve of. It is hard enough to deal with the rages and crazy emotions. I have also learned that the harder we fight about things, the harder they fight back. I am sure there are plenty of things my BPDd did in her teen years that I don't know about, and probably don't want to know either. Obviously this choice is yours to make, and only you know how strongly you feel about it. I am just an outside trying to give an open minded alternative.

Hugs to you, and I hope you have a better day today.
Logged

pamik27

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 20


« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2014, 09:57:33 AM »

Hi... . I am pretty new here so don't have the wisdom some others do.

But I just wanted to say I recognized your tone of voice... . sounds a lot like me when I reach that point of saying, "What the heck? Have I NO control over this kid as their parent?"

I can't tell you how many times I have wanted to take laptops, phones and throw them out of a moving car.

They are okay for most kids, but poison for some, like my daughter, who also has an Instragram "blog" that glamorizes nudity, smoking, cutting, suicide... . you name it.

I am so sorry to see another mom having a really bad day.

But I somewhat agree with the previous poster... . you have to choose your battles. I am doing that now... . I am trying to draw a circle around the behaviors that will a) get her arrested b) get her pregnant/date raped and c) give her (and us) a really bad reputation in our town and cause her to lose friends etc. The rest (like smoking, and her blog) I need to be willing to let you... . I might even have to let go of "c" and just focus on the first two.

I remember being a kid and thinking I did not care AT ALL whether my parents were shocked, worried, ashamed, etc. Deep down, I thought, "This is MY life." So the only behaviors I have any chance of helping her control are the ones that will interfere with HER life, not mine.

Again, just letting you know someone out there cares and "gets it."
Logged
mama72
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Posts: 135



« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2014, 10:32:50 AM »

Thank you, pamlk27 & trustesse, for you responses.

I do realize that I do have to pick my battles, and for most of this summer, I really have been. I tend to post more when I am frustrated, instead of small the successes. I feel I have come a long way. More to go, but I am getting there.

I am just not sure this is one I want to turn a blind eye to? I have a couple family members, who have had porn cause terrible trouble in their lives. I am not sure she could be any different, with her addictive personality?

This site and BPD books all talk about boundaries to be set in our own lives. To stay true to our values and morals. Having porn in our home, is something that crosses those boundaries. DD has done whatever she wants this summer, is hanging out still with the friends she smoked pot with, still seeing the gf that gave her prescription drugs, not being required to attend church as a family with us anymore. What else do I have to give in on! I don't want to look back years from know and think, "I am sure glad I continued to let my dd look at porn, in our home, with a computer we bought her to participate in debate club, to avoid her throwing a fit and to avoid conflict", I am not sure I want HER to look back on that one day and think her mother allowed that.

I hope I am not coming off defensive to either of you two wonderful mothers, I am just venting. You know how it is. I am grateful for your input more than you could ever know. Just knowing that others can understand what a struggle this is, has been very reassuring.

I don't know who this once wonderful, joy filled child has turned into. I am morning that loss greatly today. I look at my other DD and pray that neither one of us will have to go through this hell.

Logged
lever.
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 717


« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2014, 11:41:31 AM »

Hello Mama72

Boundaries are very personal and we all have to live our own values. I would find what you have seen difficult to tolerate in my home-although I know I have tolerated a lot of things many people would not.

I haven't had the same issue with porn but chat rooms and other computer-based problems have caused massive issues.

My daughter has posted very similar things on the internet about "toxic parents".

She has also posted that I am very coldhearted and we have never been close.

It hurt although I never told her I saw it.

I have pushed myself beyond exhaustion for her and although I know I could be inconsistent we had a loving relationship when she was a child- so I know how much that passage would hurt you.


Try to remember that it is the illness talking. I have found mindfulness has helped me regulate my own distress about this kind of thing.

(perhaps it is the detachment I am cultivating to protect myself that leads her to feel I am cold?)

When setting boundaries it is often how we do it that matters-perhaps have another look at the lesson on boundaries.

I also tend to post when I am frustrated or unsure how to handle things (I think many of us do). It is good to hear different perspectives from others struggling with the same issues and, knowing how upsetting these things are, we all want the best for each other.
Logged
tristesse
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Posts: 410


Let your Beauty Unfold.


« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2014, 12:01:47 PM »

HI Mamma, you do not sound defensive in the least, you are a mother with concerns, I understand those concerns and respect your choices. I was offering a suggestion that may or may not help. I have very strong opinions and beliefs of my own, so I am on board with you. It is all very personal, and we all have to do the best that we can. I know how frustrated you are. Hugs and good luck to you.
Logged

pamik27

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 20


« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2014, 12:35:27 PM »

Mama,

You are not defensive... .I totally hear you. We pretty much let our daughter stop coming to church too (because forcibly making her go seemed not very productive), and I can't force her brother to go every Sunday if she doesn't have to go... .so as a family we only go occasionally now. And I think the same thing... .Is there NO line in the sand I can draw as a parent? I can't even IMAGINE me "opting out" of church as a teenager.

Logged
HealingSpirit
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Relationship status: Married 19 years.
Posts: 425



« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2014, 02:27:53 PM »

Dear Mama72,

Your post struck a chord in me because I deal with boundary violations and differences in DD17's "values" versus my own.  It is so frustrating and sad!

I don't know who this once wonderful, joy filled child has turned into. I am morning that loss greatly today. I look at my other DD and pray that neither one of us will have to go through this hell.

I could have written that myself.  I've been very aware that I'm also grieving the DD I thought she was and coming to terms with who she IS.  It makes me so sad!  Like you, some days, I handle it better than others.

I've had to let go of passing on my values to my DD.  It hurts!  (i.e. I'm not religious, but I feel a deep spiritual connection to God/Higher Power/Universal Intelligence... .DD is atheist.   I value our planet and eating a clean, organic diet and unprocessed food... .DD prefers junk food and soda and won't eat the healthy food I keep in the house.  (I'm not vegetarian.  Just want clean, unaltered nutrition.)  I value an organized living space and I enjoy making my home beautiful... .DD couldn't care less.   I love jazz and classical music... .DD loves heavy metal and scream-o rock,  etc, etc, etc.)

Several of my friends with grown children tell me my DD will come around, and that it is a teenaged phase to NOT share their parents' values.  I hope this is the case.

I share your disgust of porn! That is a really tough situation.  I'm still fairly new here, so I don't have any answers.  One thing I've noticed though, is the more energy I have about something my DD does that I don't like, the harder she pushes back... .relentlessly.  I physically don't have the stamina to stand up to her unless it has to do with safety. 

Good luck and HUGS to you!
Logged
theplotthickens
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Posts: 210



« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2014, 11:36:52 PM »

On the porn... .I agree with setting boundaries and living your values.  Internet access, computers in rooms, etc are privileges not rights!  We have had so many issues for so long, that I only let dd have internet access and devices in public areas and not in her room.  In full disclosure, here is where I land: I don't feel that pornography agrees with emotional or spiritual wellness;  I feel it is filmed prostitution and exploitation of women.  These images change the brain and give a very warped view of sexuality and female submission that my dd (with a weak sense of self who tends to copy) does not need in her head.  Porn is a Plan A here... .something we do not tolerate in our home.

Your values are personal to you, and nobody can decide for you.  So, if I am paying the bills, I am setting the boundaries.  :)on't feel even a tad hesitant to live your boundaries and remove privileges if they are abused.  Your daughter's behavior tell you that if your daughter has internet access in her room, she is going to view porn.  If you are not ok with that, maybe it's time to limit some of those freedoms.

I have thought of internet filters, but heard kids can just get around them.  The media makes parenting soo difficult in this day and age.  Grief-o-rama!

My 17 you also calls her dad to rescue her when she is in trouble.  She is an Academy-award winner, and is a master at making me look like the mean mom no matter how gentle, consistent and reasonable I am.  Like others say, it is the illness talking.  
Logged
jellibeans
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Posts: 1726



WWW
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2014, 03:09:17 PM »

Dear mama

could there be something more to this conflict? It seems to me that it is not the porn that is the problem... .though I understand wanting to protect your younger one from seeing it... .do you think it is more of the lesbian issue? I have seen this many times on this board... .the gender confusion... .the lesbian declarations. I am just wondering how much of this is your dd trying to find herself right now. This is a time when young adults are trying different things... .experimenting.

There was a video posted on here a few months back about been judgemental... .I found it really helpful because I found at times I was very judgemental... .sometimes that is necessary but often it is harmful. Have you tried to explain that these things should be private to her and not shared with younger members of the family? Maybe appraoching it that way might help her maintain some privacy and not throw this in your face constantly. What kind of discussion have you had with her regarding sexuality?

I agree with you about the phone and internet... .it has always caused trouble in my home as well but I do feel it is something they need to master and learn how to use appropriately and that is why she has a phone and internet access. I can see what she is doing and monitor her use. Last night I was able to see she was up to no good and she got to come home instead of sleeping at a friends house. Without the internet I would have not have know so it can be used for good!  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
Logged
sunshineplease
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 159


« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2014, 09:55:44 AM »

Mama72,

I haven't been on the board a while, but I can really hear your pain. Your daughter's online life seems like a betrayal, I'm guessing, of your values and your parenting. Or babyish acting out. Or purposely trying to get attention (think piercings, tattoos, drug use, smoking, and any number of other behaviors that adults see as signs that you're dealing with a spoiled brat with nothing better to do than make trouble).

And I've experienced many of the same shocks upon seeing sexually suggestive (that's an understatement) pictures on my daughter's computer. In fact, they started showing up on various blogs when she was maybe 16, and I was surprised: I had no idea that she might be attracted to girls. A few years later she started to date a girl, and was super-nervous to tell us -- which surprised us again, since we have gay friends and have always been open about our belief that love is love. We couldn't figure out why she thought we would be upset. (We're guessing it all caught her rather by surprise, too, and that was the source of the reticence. Well, that and the overall shame she was feeling about existing at all.)

Even given our viewpoint, accepting our daughter's sexuality has been difficult. Had she been a happy, functional teen, I don't think it would have been so hard. But we found ourselves wondering if the sexual orientation issue was part of the pathology that included impulsive/addictive behaviors, anger, self-loathing. Anecdotally, there seems to be correlation between sexual uncertainty and certain emotional challenges (many discussions on this site!), and it's difficult not to see sexual identity as one of the "symptoms" of disfunction.

No one tells you when you have a baby that the hardest part of being a parent is watching your adult (or almost adult) child take part in a growth process that seems to require experiences and people you don't like/value/approve of. It's taken me a lot of Al-Anon meetings (and my child is not an alcoholic) and therapy and prayer and meditation to realize that I can choose to see my daughter's behaviors as pathological or as who she is at the moment. The constellation of life experiences and biological wiring that got her where she is now is immutable: All that matters is now and tomorrow. Now and tomorrow, I love her. I love her as she is, even if the hardest part of my life is watching her do things I don't approve of -- and things I believe will hurt her. But it's her life, and she must make the choices for herself: It may be the only way she can learn who she is and become the person she needs to be to be happy.

To expect my daughter to share all my values or to blindly follow my lead would be a disservice to her. And if she needs to explore her sexuality, I have to give her some room to do it. Lord knows I wouldn't have wanted my mother involved in mine!

I will enjoy the times we have together that are good; keep my personal boundaries around how I and my home are treated; support her as I am emotionally able; and do everything I can to encourage her to take responsibility for her life, however she decides to run it. If pornography fills a niche, maybe there's a more responsible way to get the need met. Rules about locked doors? Rules around the amount of time spent online (if she's limited to 2 hours a day, will she spend it all on porn sites?)? Discussions about how to keep siblings safe?

Then there's the possibility of just accepting. If your daughter knows you support her efforts at self-acceptance, maybe she'll open up to you about her curiosity or excitement. For many LGBT youth, hanging out with other LGBT teens is crucial. (I think we all like to hang out with folks who share our reality!) Maybe she could attend LGBT awareness or "Pride" meetings. It's a wild world out there, and learning about it from the safety of a loving home base might actually be a good thing. If it's just a "phase," so be it. If it's who she is, there's nothing that will change it, but she may learn to be more comfortable in her skin. 

Good luck. I know this is painful! Take care of yourself (so trite; so true). The more solid you feel, the better you'll be able to love and help your daughter.

Sending hugs. 
Logged
Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders
.cup.car
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Single
Posts: 251

C:\Papyrus


« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2014, 07:50:02 PM »

mama72,

I'm 21, but I share a lot of the same sentiments as you do. While I don't believe light, and I stress light viewing of pornography is inherently bad, there's a time and a place for it. You are definitely correct here - it's not right for her to be viewing it at a time where people are constantly in and out of her room.

I think the problem with a lot of the content you see on these blogs (I'm assuming we're all referring to Tumblr here), is that a lot of misinformation and warped views are able to spread like wildfire as long as they're worded somewhat intelligently. There also seems to be a culture unique to Tumblr where warped views are encouraged, almost as if there's a challenge to "think outside the box" when it isn't necessary - and it spirals out of control from there.

The end result are hundreds of misguided people being convinced that pornography is "art", destructive behavior is "deep" and "beautiful", and a hate for traditional household rules is "revolutionary." At some points I wonder if there are any normal people left on Tumblr, as you cannot go five seconds without someone trying to claim that teenagers who self-harm are more courageous than soldiers fighting overseas. It truly does get that twisted and some days I simply can't read that side of Tumblr.

So I think you have a right to be concerned that your daughter has not only found that content, but feels it resonates with her. What I feel might work when it comes to the online blog/porn issue, is to give her incentives to not be on the computer. Not necessarily grounding her or giving her rewards for spending small amounts of time mindlessly browsing the internet, but she can't sit on Tumblr reading backwards viewpoints and aligning herself with said viewpoints if she's out at the movies with friends. Not to mention, in any kind of social setting, Tumblr's backwards viewpoints flat-out aren't accepted because your average person off the street doesn't find self-harm inspiring.

Maybe the solution isn't taking away the computer, but finding your daughter other things to do that capture her interest, where she is choosing that other interest over searching for adult content and aligning herself with backwards views on the computer.

Logged
sunshineplease
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 159


« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2014, 01:40:28 PM »

@cupcar:

"The end result are hundreds of misguided people being convinced that pornography is "art", destructive behavior is "deep" and "beautiful", and a hate for traditional household rules is "revolutionary." At some points I wonder if there are any normal people left on Tumblr, as you cannot go five seconds without someone trying to claim that teenagers who self-harm are more courageous than soldiers fighting overseas."

I wish these words could be posted on every social media site once a day.

Thank you.
Logged
mama72
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Posts: 135



« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2014, 01:51:31 PM »

@cupcar:

"The end result are hundreds of misguided people being convinced that pornography is "art", destructive behavior is "deep" and "beautiful", and a hate for traditional household rules is "revolutionary." At some points I wonder if there are any normal people left on Tumblr, as you cannot go five seconds without someone trying to claim that teenagers who self-harm are more courageous than soldiers fighting overseas."

I wish these words could be posted on every social media site once a day.

Thank you.

So true.

I still have not given my daughter back her computer. Simply, because I do not want to. She wants it back, obviously, but I am tired of the constant battle over it. It is not a necessity in her life. The influence that Tumblr has had on her actions have been significant & poisonous, IMO. I hate that we bought her that computer for Christmas, but we thought is was for her to use for debate. Instead she uses it to look up inappropriate pics and YouTube how to make bongs.

I am having a hard time doing anything too nice for her. It is so hard to do something nice for someone, who treats you with such disrespect and defiance. I know it is part of the illness, but it seems that she is  capable of following the rules if it benefits her.
Logged
muffetbuffet
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 171



« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2014, 05:18:58 PM »

The computer has caused many battles in our home as well... porn sites, chat rooms and hooking up with older men, etc.  I shut down the computer one day and it caused a major explosion.  We had the police and crisis intervention team at our home over the situation.  Once things calmed down, my husband and I clearly stated our boundries about computer usage in our home.  DD has time limits on the computer and she was only permitted to be on the computer when one of us were in the room.  I never made it very convenient for her.  Of course, having someone looking over your shoulder was not what she wanted so computer usage was minimal.  Now I am not silly enough to know that she was using the computer when she was at friends' houses, etc, but it was not happening in my home. 

Another thought, there are many ways to place restrictions on the computer to monitor and/or restrict what your dd can have access to.  We have something set up through or internet provider, but there are also programs that you can buy where you can be on another computer and see what child is doing on their computer.  May give you a piece of mind about what DD is doing.  IF she can prove appropriate behavior, then maybe loosen the restrictions. 

We also never bought DD a smart phone.  She had a phone that she could use to call and text.  That way we were able to avoid the whole internet on the phone thing. 
Logged
MomWendy

Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 5



« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2014, 10:37:43 AM »

dear Mama72,

I would be pretty upset too, especially since you have a younger child who could have walked in ad seen the porn on the computer. Have you thought of just changing your wifi password for the house, and putting a password on the home computer? that way, daughter would not be able to view porn in your home, and your boundary would be maintained. if she really had homework, then she would have to do it at the wifi coffee shop. my daughter apparently had watched lots of porn on the home computer, but she would get up in the night to do it. I would advise all parents to put on safety program, your youngest nap might get curious sometime him or herself.  sending you support, it's a tough road we are on.

Logged
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!