Should I feel guilty for doing this?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hello all. Need some advice.

A little background. Moved out of the house over a month ago due to udBPDw (hopefully I typed that acronym correctly) making my life miserable with threats, stealing my personal things, damaging my personal things and making daily demands. We have been married for 2 years and we have no children together but she has two that live with us from her previous marriages (D12 and D19). Because of her poor credit all of the household bills are in my name. Even the mortgage is in my name but she is on the deed so she is still half owner. She did move the electric over to her name prior to me leaving but everything else is in my name. I have been paying for her and both her daughters cell phones and her and her 19yr olds car insurance. In addition I pay the mortgage, the electric, the cable, the internet, the water and the garbage. In the past I would pay all of these bills and the D19 would pay me cash for her cell and insurance and the D12 would pay me for hers (she would do chores for money). My stbx would write me a check for half the bills. However since I left my stbx has not paid any bills for June or July and her D19 owes for May and June as well because stbx told her not to pay me. I cannot afford to maintain all of these bills alone while she is living bill free in the house, so my attorney recommended I send her an email stating that I will be closing the accounts on the internet, cable, cell phones and car insurance in 2 weeks time and she should mail me a check for half the bills. I did and of course the stbx texted me back saying that "wow, all I get is an email?... .I don't deserve a face to face discussion? How am I supposed to pay you when you wont even meet with me?" I am not going to meet her face to face because she has done nothing but name call and berate me over the phone and text. I do not feel safe around her. I told her that bills can be handled through email and phone. She of course disagrees and then starts guilting me and insulting me because I left. She cant believe that I could do this to her and her daughters. She also mentioned that she doesn't even get paid until August 16th which is total BS. She is a teacher and is out for the summer. She gets a lump sum check at the beginning of summer for the entire summer... .3 months pay up front. The fact that also has not paid a dime towards any bills also proves she should have money as well. She also said that I wasn't giving her enough time... .once again, she is a teacher and is off for the summer... .she has nothing but time.

She never said that she was going to send me a check. She is just adamant about meeting face to face which I will not do. I plan to stick to my guns and close the accounts mentioned above in 2 weeks. I have to do this to survive but I feel horrible for her daughters. I keep imagining that they go to use their cell phones in 2 weeks and then they realize they have no service. Breaks my heart, but I cannot be expected to just support them and my stbx forever. I love her girls dearly but they both have fathers that live in our town so I know they will be ok.

Should I be feeling guilty about this? At least I notified my stbx of my intent and I didn't just do it with no warning.

[power thru]

Hello all. Need some advice.

A little background. Moved out of the house over a month ago due to udBPDw (hopefully I typed that acronym correctly) making my life miserable with threats, stealing my personal things, damaging my personal things and making daily demands. We have been married for 2 years and we have no children together but she has two that live with us from her previous marriages (D12 and D19). Because of her poor credit all of the household bills are in my name. Even the mortgage is in my name but she is on the deed so she is still half owner. She did move the electric over to her name prior to me leaving but everything else is in my name. I have been paying for her and both her daughters cell phones and her and her 19yr olds car insurance. In addition I pay the mortgage, the electric, the cable, the internet, the water and the garbage. In the past I would pay all of these bills and the D19 would pay me cash for her cell and insurance and the D12 would pay me for hers (she would do chores for money). My stbx would write me a check for half the bills. However since I left my stbx has not paid any bills for June or July and her D19 owes for May and June as well because stbx told her not to pay me. I cannot afford to maintain all of these bills alone while she is living bill free in the house, so my attorney recommended I send her an email stating that I will be closing the accounts on the internet, cable, cell phones and car insurance in 2 weeks time and she should mail me a check for half the bills. I did and of course the stbx texted me back saying that "wow, all I get is an email?... .I don't deserve a face to face discussion? How am I supposed to pay you when you wont even meet with me?" I am not going to meet her face to face because she has done nothing but name call and berate me over the phone and text. I do not feel safe around her. I told her that bills can be handled through email and phone. She of course disagrees and then starts guilting me and insulting me because I left. She cant believe that I could do this to her and her daughters. She also mentioned that she doesn't even get paid until August 16th which is total BS. She is a teacher and is out for the summer. She gets a lump sum check at the beginning of summer for the entire summer... .3 months pay up front. The fact that also has not paid a dime towards any bills also proves she should have money as well. She also said that I wasn't giving her enough time... .once again, she is a teacher and is off for the summer... .she has nothing but time.

She never said that she was going to send me a check. She is just adamant about meeting face to face which I will not do. I plan to stick to my guns and close the accounts mentioned above in 2 weeks. I have to do this to survive but I feel horrible for her daughters. I keep imagining that they go to use their cell phones in 2 weeks and then they realize they have no service. Breaks my heart, but I cannot be expected to just support them and my stbx forever. I love her girls dearly but they both have fathers that live in our town so I know they will be ok.

Should I be feeling guilty about this? At least I notified my stbx of my intent and I didn't just do it with no warning.

[enlighten me]

Hi power thru

No you shouldn't feel guilty. The daughters are old enough to understand so perhaps if you texted them and said you were sorry but as you cant afford it due to having to pay everything else then you will have to cancel the contracts and car insurance.

Don't directly point the blame at their mum though.

If she will only discuss it face to face then ask her to meet at your attorneys office that way she cant blow up in your face.

If she is not willing to do that and still wont pay up then say they you are left with no choice but to cancel the services stated.

Do it all by email so there is a record.

[ForeverDad]

No.  It is what it is, a dysfunctional and unhealthy relationship.  However, the blaming won't work unless you let it.  That's what you have gain more skill, setting proper boundaries and enforcing them.  From now on treat this as a business relationship, merger two years ago, un-merger now.

You do have a real problem financially, you are joint on the deed but you're on the hook for the mortgage.  Make sure that whatever settlement you reach - or court order if she won't agree to a reasonable settlement - that you get a QUIT CLAIM DEED from her.  You need to limit the grief she can cause you and the biggest financial risk is her part-ownership of the house.

Two things you need in any settlement or order:

• That she signs a quit claim deed, preferably right then in court so always have a quit claim deed prepared and handy at all times.



• That if she fails to sign a quit claim deed as agreed or ordered then there are strict time and financial consequences specified right in the settlement or order.  One way is to not let go any leverage you have until she signs, for example, if you agree to pay her any money then it is held in escrow and not released until she signs.

A real problem, besides delaying signing a quit claim deed, is that she plays the poor victim and refuses to move out and court allows endless delays and is reluctant to enforce anything.

[power thru]

No.  It is what it is, a dysfunctional and unhealthy relationship.  However, the blaming won't work unless you let it.  That's what you have gain more skill, setting proper boundaries and enforcing them.  From now on treat this as a business relationship, merger two years ago, un-merger now.

You do have a real problem financially, you are joint on the deed but you're on the hook for the mortgage.  Make sure that whatever settlement you reach - or court order if she won't agree to a reasonable settlement - that you get a QUIT CLAIM DEED from her.  You need to limit the grief she can cause you and the biggest financial risk is her part-ownership of the house.

Two things you need in any settlement or order:

• That she signs a quit claim deed, preferably right then in court so always have a quit claim deed prepared and handy at all times.



• That if she fails to sign a quit claim deed as agreed or ordered then there are strict time and financial consequences specified right in the settlement or order.  One way is to not let go any leverage you have until she signs, for example, if you agree to pay her any money then it is held in escrow and not released until she signs.

A real problem, besides delaying signing a quit claim deed, is that she plays the poor victim and refuses to move out and court allows endless delays and is reluctant to enforce anything.

Funny you mentioned treat this as a business relationship. Her exact words to me through text after I sent the email was "Im not a customer or business acquaintance, I am someone you lived with and married!" She was basically saying she deserves a face to face meeting and that emails were childish and beneath her.

As a side note, I live in a no fault state, equitable distribution. I am asking the courts that the house be placed on the market and sold. Her parents helped with the down payment so if we can sell the house we can pay them back. I'm trying to be fair about this.

[david]

I only communicate through email. Eliminates he said / she said nonsense.

We just finished up a custody eval and ex's number one complaint is I will not talk to her. I have been accused of too many things to risk that. Ex left in 2007 and that is her number one complaint. She made little mention of our two boys during the eval.

[Nope]

I only communicate through email. Eliminates he said / she said nonsense.

We just finished up a custody eval and ex's number one complaint is I will not talk to her. I have been accused of too many things to risk that. Ex left in 2007 and that is her number one complaint. She made little mention of our two boys during the eval.

This seems like a really common theme. Kid's BPD mom has made this same complaint numerous times to everyone involved in court. He won't talk to her, he won't co-parent with her, he keeps sending his mom to do pick ups and drop offs instead of facing her himself. None of the authorities seem to care about that one bit. The Guardian ad litem even said she wants the new parenting order to state contact should only be through email.

So please don't be duped into thinking email only contact is wrong. She likely just thinks she can manipulate you in person of over the phone by saying horrible things that she certainly doesn't want documented. It's also important to remember that any time you go near her you are at a huge risk for false allegations of domestic violence. Even an arrest is permanent public record in most states. Too many innocent people here at this site have gone through that. Please, protect yourself. Stick with the plan, and you'll be just fine.

[power thru]

Thanks all. The comment about eliminating the he said/she said nonsense is a great way to look at it. I too fear that she will try the "but he wont talk to me" tactic as well.

She has been sitting in our house living bill free for over a month now and she is using "you will not have a face to face with me so how am I supposed to pay you?" line. She has consciously made a choice not to pay me a dime. She has my cell phone, my work email and my personal email as well as my PO Box address. She could have very easily sent me a text or email and asked "hey I know bills are due, how much do I owe or where do I mail the check?". Meanwhile I'm sitting here living in a spare bedroom of a very generous friend, living off of ham sandwiches and water with $50 to my name for the rest of the month while she spends her paycheck on whatever she likes!... .sorry just venting a bit, its so aggravating and unfair.

To me the in person meeting is pointless. Are we supposed to have coffee together and laugh about the old times we had and politely agree to disagree on things... .it never worked that way with trivial things when I was living at home so why would it be different now when money and assets is on line? She cannot even be civil in text messages. Thanks for the support all.

[david]

I am repeating just to make a point. My ex complains I refuse to talk to her.

In 2007 she tried to have me evicted from our house. Court didn't buy it. She filed three protection orders against me since that time accusing me of physical and verbal abuse in each one. She hand wrote each complaint. In her own writing I have threatened her about numerous things. She took several checks that were written to me and forged my signature on the back, deposited them, and emptied all joint accts when the checks cleared. The courts didn't do a thing about any of it.

The last time I was physically near her without a recording device she accused me of assault. I was arrested, convicted of disorderly conduct, and put in jail for two weeks. I am a school teacher and my union put me on a leave of abscence to protect my job. I have to wait 5 years until I can get my record expunged and go back to teaching. Two more years to go.

I never did any of the things she has accused me of.

After all this my ex complains I refuse to talk to her. 

We have two kids together ( 15 and 11 ) so NC is not possible at this time.

[livednlearned]

She never said that she was going to send me a check.

Have you filed? Because you can always include the amount owed in the financial settlement.

I found that lawyers are very loose with money during the settlement, so you have to be the one pointing out the nickels and dimes. The lawyers in my case were tossing around amounts in the tens of thousands like it was nothing. But you can get a specific amount in writing and any costs subtracted from the down payment owed to her parents. Or closing costs on refinancing the house, or wherever there is a split down the middle for costs/debts.

Funny you mentioned treat this as a business relationship. Her exact words to me through text after I sent the email was "Im not a customer or business acquaintance, I am someone you lived with and married!" She was basically saying she deserves a face to face meeting and that emails were childish and beneath her.

People with BPD can't seem to see their own bad behavior. My ex just erased it like revisionist history. Too shameful, I guess. So half of reality was eliminated. All he sees is someone who won't communicate with him, he won't acknowledge that maybe his own abusive behavior led to this new arctic communication style. That's why the logic is so bizarre, it's completely one-sided to only see someone else's bad behavior without seeing your own. If someone berates you and insults you, then they lose the privilege of being in a warm, caring relationship with you. Business emails follow. That's a consequence that makes sense to people who take responsibility for their own behavior.

So yeah, if you just upped and walked out, and then sent an email saying you're cutting off the accounts, then maybe she could be righteous. But that's not the reality.

Can you let both daughters know that their service is about to end?

[power thru]

She never said that she was going to send me a check.

Have you filed? Because you can always include the amount owed in the financial settlement.

I found that lawyers are very loose with money during the settlement, so you have to be the one pointing out the nickels and dimes. The lawyers in my case were tossing around amounts in the tens of thousands like it was nothing. But you can get a specific amount in writing and any costs subtracted from the down payment owed to her parents. Or closing costs on refinancing the house, or wherever there is a split down the middle for costs/debts.

Funny you mentioned treat this as a business relationship. Her exact words to me through text after I sent the email was "Im not a customer or business acquaintance, I am someone you lived with and married!" She was basically saying she deserves a face to face meeting and that emails were childish and beneath her.

People with BPD can't seem to see their own bad behavior. My ex just erased it like revisionist history. Too shameful, I guess. So half of reality was eliminated. All he sees is someone who won't communicate with him, he won't acknowledge that maybe his own abusive behavior led to this new arctic communication style. That's why the logic is so bizarre, it's completely one-sided to only see someone else's bad behavior without seeing your own. If someone berates you and insults you, then they lose the privilege of being in a warm, caring relationship with you. Business emails follow. That's a consequence that makes sense to people who take responsibility for their own behavior.

So yeah, if you just upped and walked out, and then sent an email saying you're cutting off the accounts, then maybe she could be righteous. But that's not the reality.

Can you let both daughters know that their service is about to end?

Yes I already filed and I plan on using the amounts she has not paid at mediation, if she doesn't pay.

I could call the stepdaughters but I don't feel like they need to be placed in the middle of this. I feel that its their mothers responsibility to handle that talk. I guess im also scared that it could get turned around on me for example :

SD12:"Hey mom Power Thru just called me and told me that he couldn't afford to pay my phone and he has to cut the service"

STBX: "Really? He called you and threatened to have a 12yr olds phone turned off? Wow what a monster he is. Don't worry about it baby, mommy will get you phone service elsewhere. He's just being mean don't worry about a thing"

... .I can totally see this happening. 

[livednlearned]

I could call the stepdaughters but I don't feel like they need to be placed in the middle of this. I feel that its their mothers responsibility to handle that talk. I guess im also scared that it could get turned around on me for example :

SD12:"Hey mom Power Thru just called me and told me that he couldn't afford to pay my phone and he has to cut the service"

STBX: "Really? He called you and threatened to have a 12yr olds phone turned off? Wow what a monster he is. Don't worry about it baby, mommy will get you phone service elsewhere. He's just being mean don't worry about a thing"

... .I can totally see this happening. 

How about emailing them? Even if they don't read emails -- which a lot of teens don't. For your own sanity, and for documentation. Not because of court, but because you might want to read it in a few years to comfort yourself that you're a good guy, you cared about these girls, but you were putting boundaries in place and trying to do the right thing. Maybe write it to D19, and ask her to share with her sister.

":)19, when I made the decision to divorce your mom, it meant that our finances would no longer be co-mingled. I wish I could call you and tell you this in person, but right now that isn't a good idea. I don't want you to be blindsided by me terminating the account, so I'm letting you know in advance. I hope you understand."

[Forestaken]

My kids are older, S24 & D20 (they are with me)

I did a spreadsheet of where the money is going and showed them.  They volunteered some more ideas.

[ForeverDad]

Here is an example about child support, something the courts care very much about... .  If either of you file just for a protection order, the court may not delve into child support.  But if a parent files for child support or files for divorce, then the courts will step in and order child support, quite probably making it retroactive to the date of filing.  That happened to me, court took nearly two months to set a temporary order in the divorce process and in one day I was told I owed two months of past support.  Two weeks later at the end of the month the state child support enforcement agency sent me a letter that I was DELINQUENT and would be reported as IN DEFAULT if not paid in full within 30 days.  Unfortunately I had just emptied my bank account to pay my lawyer and had to borrow money from my brother to get the last of it paid in time.

That's one reason not to be overpaying your spouse if you're already separated, you think your payment of so many bills will show you're a responsible person and get credit for doing the right thing.  Sadly, the system ignores any extra you do as 'gifts' and not payments or pre-payments.

Be aware that courts and agencies put child support near the top of the list, next to that is spousal support, if ordered, most other things you have to pay for don't get nearly as much attention, scrutiny or concern.  And it's up to you and your attorney to object in court if any order is too financially crushing to live with.  Don't expect the court to look out for your welfare, don't expect court to be fair by default, too often in court the squeaky wheel gets the grease and in our cases it's the disordered ex.

As has been often noted, the poorly behaving person seldom gets consequences and the properly behaving person seldom gets credit.

[power thru]

Here is an example about child support, something the courts care very much about... .  If either of you file just for a protection order, the court may not delve into child support.  But if a parent files for child support or files for divorce, then the courts will step in and order child support, quite probably making it retroactive to the date of filing.  That happened to me, court took nearly two months to set a temporary order in the divorce process and in one day I was told I owed two months of past support.  Two weeks later at the end of the month the state child support enforcement agency sent me a letter that I was DELINQUENT and would be reported as IN DEFAULT if not paid in full within 30 days.  Unfortunately I had just emptied my bank account to pay my lawyer and had to borrow money from my brother to get the last of it paid in time.

That's one reason not to be overpaying your spouse if you're already separated, you think your payment of so many bills will show you're a responsible person and get credit for doing the right thing.  Sadly, the system ignores any extra you do as 'gifts' and not payments or pre-payments.

Be aware that courts and agencies put child support near the top of the list, next to that is spousal support, if ordered, most other things you have to pay for don't get nearly as much attention, scrutiny or concern.  And it's up to you and your attorney to object in court if any order is too financially crushing to live with.  Don't expect the court to look out for your welfare, don't expect court to be fair by default, too often in court the squeaky wheel gets the grease and in our cases it's the disordered ex.

As has been often noted, the poorly behaving person seldom gets consequences and the properly behaving person seldom gets credit.

Well the good news is... .we do not have kids together. Both of the girls are hers from previous marriages. i have no obligation to them... .and besides, the oldest is 19, technically an adult. Our marriage is a short 2yr marriage and she has worked the entire time (sometimes a 2nd job) so her chances of alimony are slim to none. The only thing that im asking is that she pay me for her portion of the bills and get the bills in her name if she is to remain in the home until its sold or she can somehow pull off a miracle and get it refinanced in her name. If she chooses the refi route then she will have to sign an agreement drafted by my attorney to do so by X time and day and if not she will have to vacate the home and it will immediately be placed on the market. This will be in writing and part of the decree, no exceptions.

[ForeverDad]

"No exceptions."  I bet even with that she can fail to pay bills, get continuances, etc... .  Coffee Shop left her spouse in the house and she lived though chaos and delays for nearly two years.

[livednlearned]

Here is an example about child support, something the courts care very much about... . If either of you file just for a protection order, the court may not delve into child support.  But if a parent files for child support or files for divorce, then the courts will step in and order child support, quite probably making it retroactive to the date of filing.  That happened to me, court took nearly two months to set a temporary order in the divorce process and in one day I was told I owed two months of past support.  Two weeks later at the end of the month the state child support enforcement agency sent me a letter that I was DELINQUENT and would be reported as IN DEFAULT if not paid in full within 30 days.  Unfortunately I had just emptied my bank account to pay my lawyer and had to borrow money from my brother to get the last of it paid in time.

That's one reason not to be overpaying your spouse if you're already separated, you think your payment of so many bills will show you're a responsible person and get credit for doing the right thing.  Sadly, the system ignores any extra you do as 'gifts' and not payments or pre-payments.

Be aware that courts and agencies put child support near the top of the list, next to that is spousal support, if ordered, most other things you have to pay for don't get nearly as much attention, scrutiny or concern.  And it's up to you and your attorney to object in court if any order is too financially crushing to live with.  :)on't expect the court to look out for your welfare, don't expect court to be fair by default, too often in court the squeaky wheel gets the grease and in our cases it's the disordered ex.

As has been often noted, the poorly behaving person seldom gets consequences and the properly behaving person seldom gets credit.

Well the good news is... .we do not have kids together. Both of the girls are hers from previous marriages. i have no obligation to them... .and besides, the oldest is 19, technically an adult. Our marriage is a short 2yr marriage and she has worked the entire time (sometimes a 2nd job) so her chances of alimony are slim to none. The only thing that im asking is that she pay me for her portion of the bills and get the bills in her name if she is to remain in the home until its sold or she can somehow pull off a miracle and get it refinanced in her name. If she chooses the refi route then she will have to sign an agreement drafted by my attorney to do so by X time and day and if not she will have to vacate the home and it will immediately be placed on the market. This will be in writing and part of the decree, no exceptions.

I highly recommend making sure your motions or orders have consequences written right into them. Most lawyers will say that the parties have a deadline to refinance. It's amazing how many different ways there are to delay a refi, and to blame you for it, so have consequences if she does not comply. That way the judge has something to go by. Script it out as best you can. She gets to live there without any consequences, so there is no motivation to do anything. I gave N/BPDx the house, and it took me three motions for contempt to get him to comply. He was over a year past the deadline, and the judge believed all N/BPDx's bunk about why this and that.

Add something about how if the refi is within a certain percentage, and she won't agree to sign, she waives her right to consent, or you can sign without her. Or something like that. Ask your L what you can add in there -- I think there are better precedents to help with this language if both parties have to sell, so see if there is something you can roll over into refi language. Also make sure it is clear that she pays for the closing costs. Or she pays for them if she hasn't paid her share of the bills by then.

Maybe you write something like: If she does not refi by a certain date, then you take possession of the house and she must move out within x days/weeks. If you have to take her to court for not complying, she must pay your legal fees. Your lawyer can help you figure out how to phrase it. It might have to say "if either party" but you know you'll comply, and you know she won't.

If she does not pay her bills by x date/month then you start charging her interest. Or garnish wages. Or take possession of the house. If she fails to comply, she pays your legal fees. Etc. Think through all the contingencies. If she cannot refi the house, then xyz. If the house has to be put on the market, she must move out to sell it. If she has not moved out by such and such a date, she will be evicted and you will take possession of the home.

Also, ask to have the QCD put in escrow with her lawyer. That way, if she doesn't comply, and the consequence is that you take possession of the house, you don't have to take her to court to get it. It's standard to have the lawyers hold it in escrow, at least in my state. But you might want to ask what is standard for where you live.

Is it possible to get back into the house and record what it looks like? Just in case she decides to trash the place and make it impossible sell, in the event she can't or won't get a refi.

[power thru]

"No exceptions."  I bet even with that she can fail to pay bills, get continuances, etc... .  Coffee Shop left her spouse in the house and she lived though chaos and delays for nearly two years.

Noted, but couldn't she also cause major problems even if I was able to get the courts to place the house on the market?

I.E. ask courts to remain in home until home sales, sabotage viewings, not agree to viewing times, take down the for sale sign when no one is looking?, etc... .

[ForeverDad]

"No exceptions."  I bet even with that she can fail to pay bills, get continuances, etc... .Coffee Shop left her spouse in the house and she lived though chaos and delays for nearly two years.

Noted, but couldn't she also cause major problems even if I was able to get the courts to place the house on the market?

I.E. ask courts to remain in home until home sales, sabotage viewings, not agree to viewing times, take down the for sale sign when no one is looking?, etc... .

Of course!  That's why we were warning you to make settlement/order details and the consequences as specific, wiggle-proof and bomb-proof as possible.  The judge might still allow it to be bent beyond recognition, but at least it will be as good as possible when written.

I was mistaken about the history of Coffee Shop, her scary ex came back and took over the house.