I feel so weak.

[peiper]

I so want to call her and talk. I just dont understand this insanity.

[hurting300]

Go to the mall, talk to every female you can buddy. Trust me i know how you feel ok. You're a good man, she lost out. She WILL call you. Move on find you a girl who is sane.

[Numbnut]

Peiper, you can do it. You read my story.  I did it, and I was lost in a fog for four years. Please explain to me, as best you can, what it is that you are missing that makes you want to go for another round . . .  Seriously, lay every reason that you can think of right here, so we can understand.  Then write a list for us of every bad thing that happened in your relationship.  Then we can compare those two lists and take inventory and help you narrow in on what you want to do.

We are all weak.  Trust me.  You don't walk into a gym and suddenly have huge muscles.  You have to go lift regularly and work up to it.  Getting free is just like that.  Will you want to skip a workout and eat a huge plate of nachos instead?  Of course . . . it's human nature.  But if you stay tough, it does get easier.  I guarantee it.

[peiper]

The good stuff, I still love her. Shes very pretty. It was nice being married to a flight attendent. Shes a good cook and I love her smile. 

The bad stuff,never knew when I came home from work if she had moved out, always threatening to move out or divorce, constantly griping about how I need to do projects around the house. Insane behavior, the personal insults. She actually said she was running me down to her family, had me served with a bogus restraing order, never helped with the bills. Actually made a list of things I needed to do to keep her from moving out like paint the inside of the house, there were like twenty dang things on that list.

[peiper]

Also she had do it yourself divorce papers. After I was served the RO I texted her to send the papers and I would sign them and pay the filing fee. Which is what she said she wanted. A week later I get served papers from an lawyer. She knows I cant afford one right now. Its a control thing I think. Oh and she filed in a city 200 miles from where we live.

[peiper]

Another thing that happened is I told her she was the most beautiful thing Id ever seen. In a crappy was she said she wanted to see pictures of my exs to prove it. She comes off as having it so together,but thats not the case on the inside. Shes moved out three times always calling in around a month being sweet and wanting to start over. The last time she had leased a house, well she broke the lease after a month loosing three grand of her depost. The threatens to sue the property company to get it back. Totally nutty stuff.

[OutOfEgypt]

Shes very pretty.

I'm not doubting that you love her, but how much of it was more that you lift her up on this extremely high pedestal because she is smoking hot and knows how to lure attention from other men?  In other words, how much of it is infatuation and idolization because she seems to have what you think you lack (i.e. the ability to have the opposite sex desire and fawn all over you), and therefore you treat her like she's a goddess?  I mean really... .if you think of the relationship, what do you actually love about it?  Can you name many good qualities about her?

I know how it goes.  After being with someone like this, they beat you down and show you constantly how desirable they are that it creates a power differential in your mind.  And she seems so "above" you, thus creating this sense that she's some prize.  And you feel so worthless and just want things to work out that you buy into it.  Not to be mean about someone I don't even know, but there are tons and tons of pretty women out there, and there are tons of them who are just like her.  They aren't that great.  I was married to one.  You can have mine if you want .

[peiper]

Well she could save me from a rattle snake by biting it first.

[OutOfEgypt]

Mine too

Sometimes I still look at my ex and can see what attracted me to her.  She's very pretty.  She's endearing in how she acts.  She's like a shiny bait.  But once you bite the hook, you pay dearly.  And then the very thing that attracted you becomes the weapon she uses to punish you and destroy your self-esteem and identity.  She's one of the most beautiful wrecking-balls that I have ever seen.  But not on the inside.  Half of her allure is how she presents herself.  Her false self is working constantly.  She walks into a room and is "cute".  Everything is "cute" about her and how she carries herself.  But man.  Live with her for a few years.  Not cute.  More like a monster.

[peiper]

Man I hear you. She destroyed my self respect. Tomorrow RO hearing for her bogus charges. She threatens divorce once again I told her cool lets do it. The next day she files a restraing order. I think she wanted me to grovel once again and beg her to stay. She didnt get what she wanted and is paying me back.

[OutOfEgypt]

Good luck on that!  My ex filed a bogus R/O on me, too.  She did it because she was afraid I was going to file for full custody of the kids (I certainly had reason to!) because I did before during our previous two divorce attempts.  All I can say, bro, is once you commit to a path... .stick to it.  And be smart.  Avoid all personal contact except when there are witnesses.  Document everything.  She'll sniff on you when you are thinking about bailing on her, and she will be one step ahead.  It's all about control and avoiding the truth.

No matter what she does to you, she can't take away the fact that you are getting free of her.  That is worth its weight in gold.

[christoff522]

Shes very pretty.

I'm not doubting that you love her, but how much of it was more that you lift her up on this extremely high pedestal because she is smoking hot and knows how to lure attention from other men?  In other words, how much of it is infatuation and idolization because she seems to have what you think you lack (i.e. the ability to have the opposite sex desire and fawn all over you), and therefore you treat her like she's a goddess?  I mean really... .if you think of the relationship, what do you actually love about it?  Can you name many good qualities about her?

I know how it goes.  After being with someone like this, they beat you down and show you constantly how desirable they are that it creates a power differential in your mind.  And she seems so "above" you, thus creating this sense that she's some prize.  And you feel so worthless and just want things to work out that you buy into it.  Not to be mean about someone I don't even know, but there are tons and tons of pretty women out there, and there are tons of them who are just like her.  They aren't that great.  I was married to one.  You can have mine if you want .

that was a 'ding!' moment for me reading that. Yes mine is smoking hot, yes she has photos on instagram showing how hot she is. Yes she does seem out of my league... .yes its nice having someone so hot being attracted to me... 'ding'

[christoff522]

Good luck on that!  My ex filed a bogus R/O on me, too.  She did it because she was afraid I was going to file for full custody of the kids (I certainly had reason to!) because I did before during our previous two divorce attempts.  All I can say, bro, is once you commit to a path... .stick to it.  And be smart.  Avoid all personal contact except when there are witnesses.  Document everything.  She'll sniff on you when you are thinking about bailing on her, and she will be one step ahead.  It's all about control and avoiding the truth.

No matter what she does to you, she can't take away the fact that you are getting free of her.  That is worth its weight in gold.

You're a very smart chap. It intrigues me that she was so desperate for us to meet in a secluded place where no-one would see us... .maybe she had a plan to screw me over? This stuff is so twisted!

[OutOfEgypt]

Yup.  I realized that much of my reasoning for needing a "hot" woman is because of how it makes me feel about myself.  It's like having a nice looking lighthouse makes me feel like I'm a worthwhile guy for being able to hold onto her.  Thus, losing her to the zillions of other guys over the years has been a death of self, not merely a death of relationship.  But it's a lie.  The quality of the light is much more important than the appearance of the lighthouse.

Obviously, not all beautiful women are like this.  But the ones who are know it and use it as a weapon.  My ex would tell me that she got turned on by going out to bars, knowing she was the hottest one there, knowing all the guys wants to #$k her, and then rejecting every one of them in her mind, to come home to "her man."  It's like she enjoyed being prized and idolized... .not just by random guys but even by "her man."  Everybody ought to know, apparently, how desirable she is, how well off we are for being able to score someone so great.

But -and no offense to my ex- she's not great.  She lives on the fringe, on the surface... .a self-constructed false self.  Cute and beautiful and alluring on the surface, but petty, selfish, insecure, and empty on the inside.  

Having a beautiful woman would be great.  But what would be better is having a woman who is attractive to me yet who truly sees my light and loves my light, and someone's whose light I can love, too.  It is far better than having someone who only basks in my light for a time in order to get me to worship her lighthouse exterior.  It's a trap.  A deadly trap.  When you take all of that into account, their beauty is ugly.

[peiper]

I hired a Psycho-Linguistic Forensic Statement Analysis done on her statement. This thing blows so many holes in her report.  Like I threatened to kill her but she stuck around and moved all her stuff out, she even took all the pillows and sheets off the beds. Now thats just not right, I think it was a control thing. If someone would have threatened me Id have left and called the cops.  I wouldnt have stuck around and moved my stuff out. I think Ill win.

[OutOfEgypt]

It is twisted.  I would often vacillate between thinking she is just self-interested or she is sadistic and intentionally does things to manipulate and hurt.  I think it may be a bit of both, in my experience.  They have reasons that are very real to them for the things they do.  But I won't trust.

Your gut tells you right.  When we almost divorced the first two times, I wanted to go for custody of the children.  She was neglecting and hurting them and all of us.  She wanted joint custody and to share the kids equally.  I was still of the mind that I needed to "rescue" the children from her, so I filed for divorce behind her back and got her kicked out of the house and went for custody.  Sometimes I wish I followed through, but honestly that would've probably just provoked her to try to alienate the children from me -which would hurt them even more.  But my gut was correct in telling me that she's not a person who can be dealt with directly unless it is intentionally to get things resolved quickly by playing toward her desire to be seen as a good person.  There is part of them that wants to be seen as a good person so badly, that they are almost looking for opportunities to show it.  That's not all bad.  It actually helps.

[peiper]

Yup.  I realized that much of my reasoning for needing a "hot" woman is because of how it makes me feel about myself.  It's like having a nice looking lighthouse makes me feel like I'm a worthwhile guy for being able to hold onto her.  Thus, losing her to the zillions of other guys over the years has been a death of self, not merely a death of relationship.  But it's a lie.  The quality of the light is much more important than the appearance of the lighthouse.

Obviously, not all beautiful women are like this.  But the ones who are know it and use it as a weapon.  My ex would tell me that she got turned on by going out to bars, knowing she was the hottest one there, knowing all the guys wants to #$k her, and then rejecting every one of them in her mind, to come home to "her man."  It's like she enjoyed being prized and idolized... .not just by random guys but even by "her man."  Everybody ought to know, apparently, how desirable she is, how well off we are for being able to score someone so great.

But -and no offense to my ex- she's not great.  She lives on the fringe, on the surface... .a self-constructed false self.  Cute and beautiful and alluring on the surface, but petty, selfish, insecure, and empty on the inside.  

Having a beautiful woman would be great.  But what would be better is having a woman who is attractive to me yet who truly sees my light and loves my light, and someone's whose light I can love, too.  It is far better than having someone who only basks in my light for a time in order to get me to worship her lighthouse exterior.  It's a trap.  A deadly trap.  When you take all of that into account, their beauty is ugly.

OOE thing is I felt so much better about myself before her. My esteem was good, now its in the toilet.

[OutOfEgypt]

I know what you mean.  I was certainly not "Mr. Confidence" before then, but I had no problem sticking with my own point of view.  I remember a few years ago, during her last affair (at least while we were married, not counting the affair during our last recycle), I was back home and I met up with a girl I dated a few years before I met her.  This girl saw me and, after listening to me talk, said to me, "What happened to you?"  She saw me as a defeated heap, a shadow of who I was.  She used to admire me for sticking to my guns and being willing to go against the grain for what I believed in.  I was a shell of a person by that time.  It really does a number on you.

But it gets better.  I feel in many ways STRONGER than I did before I met my ex.  Wiser, stronger, more confident, more mature, more sure of who I am and what I want.  But I still struggle.  I still have flashbacks.  I still have bad days.  But they are getting better and better.

[peiper]

I really think when she talked about leaving and divorce she thought Id kiss her butt to stay, but when I said bring it on and lets do it she esclated to try to keep some form of control.

[peiper]

Abandometent issues probably in my view

[OutOfEgypt]

Yes.  Sounds very familiar.

At the end of our last recycle, I confronted her about her "friendship" with this other guy -how it was killing me and how she showed no care at all for my feelings.  Having a friendship with another man, where you hang out with him (even "just talking" as she claimed) all night and come home at 6am, is inappropriate to begin with, but when you take into account that this is the guy she cheated on me with during the last years of our marriage, then it is absolutely insane for her to think it should be "okay" to hang out with him. So, I told her I couldn't take it anymore.  She fired back, "I just want to be friends.  I'm done."  I cried and broke down.  She lectured me for about 45 minutes about how I failed her, how I disappointed her, how I became the "same person" I was before (hmm... .WONDER WHY?).  I was so despondent.  I felt terrible, like I blew it (again).  I "drove her away" again.  We were supposed to be "just friends" (clearly her way of keeping the door open while being able to do WHATEVER SHE WANTS).

The next day, I found out more information about her "friendship" and how she even fooled around with one of our son's friends (18 years old).  How sick!  I got my bearings, I looked at it all, and I remembered how I felt after she moved back in.  I remembered how I noticed the "switch" flip back (which she claimed was totally in my imagination, or caused by me).  And I called her up as she was "thinking about things" at a hotel room with this guy.  I told her to not come back to my house.  I told her no "friends", I'm all done.  No more.  Period.  She came back.  It took me almost four months to get her out of my house.  And during that time she cried, tried to get me to help her with things (get attention), called me up in the middle of the night declaring that she will always love me, called me at work, called me to talk to me about how her affair-buddy wanted to be with her but she didn't want to, smashed things into pieces that I had given to her over the years during fits of rage in the middle of the night, and laid in bed and skipped doing the things she needed to do, all depressed, for a number of weeks.  It was my fault, of course.  Finally, she caught on that I was not being pulled back in, and her behavior stopped.  By then she had already met someone else.  She finally moved out, and then she became "official" in dating him within a week or two.  She always vowed, as it said to in the parenting classes we took for our divorce, to not expose the kids to new relationships unless she felt it was serious and long-term, but it's a joke.  She has him there all the time.  My kids hate it.  She's all wrapped up into him.  She's decided that she's lived for the kids for a long time, and now she owes it to herself to do what she wants.  Can you believe that?  totally laughable, since she ALWAYS did whatever she wanted.  It must have killed her over the years to think about anybody but herself even a little bit.

[OutOfEgypt]

By the way, in all fairness pretty much ALL people want to be seen as a good person.  It is just human nature, and we can get much further when working with people when we appeal to that in them.  And my ex is not all bad.  But she's bad enough.  I have a very hard time thinking about many of her positive qualities without wondering if they were genuine or completely part of the false self -having some kind of angle to avoid her own shame, feel good about herself, appear good to others, blame someone else, or get other people to like/desire her.

Thankfully, it isn't my problem any longer.  I don't have to figure it out.  I can wish her well and say "good for you" as I let go!

[peiper]

I think so too. She kept wanting me to prove it more and more That I loved her at the same time getting meaner and meaner, which got so old and was killing me. I pleaded with her to stop, but according to her it was always my fault. And crap I actually bought into it... Im realizing its not really her fault, she had a crap childhood. But I go back and forth feeling sorry for her and hating her. Its messed up.

[peiper]

OOE,its hard when your split so much. I tried talking to a friend today about it. He replyed all women are like that. I told him he had no idea what I  was talking about. He doesnt. The abuse is so intense. I hated her for awhile. Until I got a T and on here. Now I just feel bad for her,at the moment anyway.

[OutOfEgypt]

Lot's of people have crap childhoods, though.  Not saying we should have zero empathy for them, but come on... .at some point people have to take personal responsibility for how their issues hurt people.  Can a drunk driver who killed someone say, "I had a bad childhood.  That's why I drink, and I didn't mean to kill that person, but I'm too broken to not do things like that?"  

But I understand flipping between feeling sorry and hating her.  I do.  Pretty normal, my friend.  Eventually I think we get to the place where we can still be rightly angry about what happened, yet without being take over by bitterness, and come to a place where we can see them as a whole person that we no longer want to talk badly about -we just want to stay away from them.  I'm getting there.  I felt that way last week.  I think that is what healing is like

[OutOfEgypt]

Yeah, really nobody knows.  They think they do, but they don't. 

Anybody, women or men, can do "BPD-like" things.  But what makes this different is the level of enmeshment, of mind-numbing crazy-making blame and gaslighting, manipulation... .just the overall severity of it, their utter lack of boundaries and respect for boundaries, and the pathology of it.  The same result will ALWAYS happen.  In that regard, NO WAY.  Not all women are like that.  Nope.   

[christoff522]

Yeah, really nobody knows.  They think they do, but they don't.  

Anybody, women or men, can do "BPD-like" things.  But what makes this different is the level of enmeshment, of mind-numbing crazy-making blame and gaslighting, manipulation... .just the overall severity of it, their utter lack of boundaries and respect for boundaries, and the pathology of it.  The same result will ALWAYS happen.  In that regard, NO WAY.  Not all women are like that.  Nope.  

Peiper I really get what you're going through... I'm struggling so much myself... .I'm so thankful for OOE at the moment. I'm just gonna give this to Jesus - I give up trying to deal with it, its killing me right now. I feel so much 'need' for her that I just can't put my finger on why... but yeah, its enmeshment, we were apart for so long, now she's back and silent - its like I've got the life saving medication I need and its been dangled in front of me like a carrot to a donkey, then thrown into the bin and I can't reach it.

I just gotta move on I guess. God bless you OOE, Piper and this forum, Its so nice to just be able to write this down. I'm not derailing the thread, just had to type this somewhere and it seems relevant to "I feel so weak" cos I bloody do!  

[peiper]

I think its an addiction. My T says it creats dopamen in the brain, just like a drug does. Hense dope. My spelling sucks sorry. The on again off again gives you a need to start it again. I know I love it, but in the end its like a drug when you come off and break away, depression, despair lack of self. Until you find you again, because you let yourself get lost in them and the dream you had. Drive on troop. You will make it

[christoff522]

I think its an addiction. My T says it creats dopamen in the brain, just like a drug does. Hense dope. My spelling sucks sorry. The on again off again gives you a need to start it again. I know I love it, but in the end its like a drug when you come off and break away, depression, despair lack of self. Until you find you again, because you let yourself get lost in them and the dream you had. Drive on troop. You will make it

Exactly Brother! You get that adrenaline rush that makes you get all excited... its not even about her that much, its just that she makes you feel that way. Theres nothing about her that remotely interests me other than the way she makes me feel. I call it love, but its more 'desire'. Yes, I've been depressed these past few days, run down, feel ill. Been crying on and off in despair. I want her, I love her, I hate her, I need her. Its like I have BPD myself. Yet I KNOW that it will never work, I KNOW that shes insane. I know I need to move on, I know that she is utterly - totally - bonkers, and yet I TEXTED HER, I made the first move, something she would have never ever ever ever done. So... yah... move on... .get a grip... focus your attention elsewhere soldier!

Bless you sir

[Numbnut]

It really is eerie just how similar so many of these stories are.  The beauty, how that "prize" validates us, the facade . . . it's all the same. My ex was a real freaking supermodel,who Ford Agency flew all over the world to do runaways.  Talk about validation.  The shy kid in high school was living with a covergirl, who claimed I was her soulmate, the man of her dreams, blah, blah, blah.  That made the "idealization/demonization" cycle all the harder for me.  So we all get it.  Now back to you.  Here's how I tallied your post up:

PRO's:

1.  I still love her.

2.  Shes very pretty.

3.  It was nice being married to a flight attendant.

4.  Shes a good cook; and

5.  I love her smile.

CON's:

1.  never knew when I came home from work if she had moved out. [Gives you a nice sense of stability to help you focus on work, I'll bet]

2.  always threatening to move out or divorce [I'm sure that that is another morale and self-esteem booster]

3.  constantly griping about how I need to do projects around the house. [I suspect that she does no projects around the house or cleans]

4.  Insane behavior  [always helpful for a nice relaxing time at home]

5.  the personal insults. [another ego-booster for you, I'm sure]

6.  never helped with the bills [why would you expect her to? You should be thankful to have her]

7.  had me served with a bogus restraining order. After I was served the RO I texted her to send the papers and I would sign them and pay the filing fee. Which is what she said she wanted. A week later I get served papers from an lawyer. She knows I cant afford one right now. Its a control thing I think. Oh and she filed in a city 200 miles from where we live. [using the legal system and often false claims of DV is not only typical, but dangerous to your career]

8.  Shes moved out three times always calling in around a month being sweet and wanting to start over. The last time she had leased a house, well she broke the lease after a month loosing three grand of her depost. Then threatens to sue the property company to get it back. Totally nutty stuff.

9.  Uses R/O's and threats to make "me to grovel once again and beg her to stay."

10.  If She doesn't get what she wants and she is paying me back by being vindictive.

I don't know your BPD, but I find it hard to believe that her smile is so good, she is such a great cook and it is so much fun being married to a flight attendant, that it is worth Con's 1-10.  Seriously? How often do you go on free flights?  How much is the whole divorce/restraining order deal going to cost?  Get a girlfriend and buy her veneers, and pay for your flights.  I guarantee that you will come out way ahead financially and emotionally.  What is the price that you place on emotional stability, of not walking on eggshells, of not being insulted and denigrated.

RUN, DON'T WALK away and never look back.  Just make sure that the R/O is mutual and includes all contact of any type.