Expert Witness...

[Aussie JJ]

Hi all,

What experience do you have with getting an expert witness on the effects of BPD on  children's development with a BPD parent.  My lawyer said the diagnosis has to be there (it is) and also that even though I can say what happened and what I can see happening having an expert is better. 

Essentially I have 12 months to prepare for this probably more... .  I have been told by my lawyer (he read bill's divorce book) that essentially it describes 1/2 of the mothers he goes up against BPD and when it doesn't describe the mother it describes the father the other 1/2 of the time.  He is a lawyer that predominantly represents kids on behalf of the court in these cases. 

Its quite daunting having him tell me that it will end up going through every phase drawn out and all of the other jazz. 

There are ALOT of her accusations I have already countered but I don't know what she will make up.  What is your experience on having a expert witness and what should I look for in this regard.  The L I have has said their are not many who specialise in BPD that he knows of and the ones he does know are on diagnosis and treatment and not any that deal with effects on children. 

My main concern is the latter... .

[SeekerofTruth]

Hi Aussie,

Just writing to say hello.  You are not alone.  Similarly, my request on 7/17 for some info that I have previously seen on the boards, pertaining to damaging impact upon recipient of abuse longer-term economic recovery/career earnings remains met with a goose egg.

I believe we are ahead of the curve!  In the last 2 years I have noticed a substantial and growing awareness of personality disordered individuals with psychopathic traits and the pervasive damage calculatingly perpetrated upon their victims who hang on.

The truest insight I have read on these boards is:  "... .when lawyers become involved, things/matters become worse... ."

THERE IS AN INCREDIBLE LACK OF KNOWLEDGE REGARDING THE ABOVE BY THE FAMILY COURTS AND DIVORCE ATTYS.  The current models in the USA allow for capitalistic profiting by many attorneys who have learned they can make more money by driving emotional conflict further.  A particular nuance in the US is the distinction between states that have a "no-fault" divorce paradigm than those that do not.  For example, in some states, a judge may legally exercise his or her discretion in ascertaining the untoward impact of domestic violence in making an appropriate compensatory "reward".  In those states that are "no fault", accountability is not in anyone's lexicon... .which makes for the court system to be used and abused as a playground for the PD to further inflict pain damage if a vindictive, mean, hating, power and control, motive is operative.   

In my experience, I have had to deal with my wife's misconduct/deception + her attorney's misconduct/deception... .that I finally threw in the towel from my Pro Se efforts and lawyered up.  I was crystal clear with my lawyer regarding what my expectations for his services were... .as I PRO-Actively sought to gain a level of detachment in order to facilitate my own closure along side years of active therapy.  I turned my back... .and when I looked again, my attorney went into an entirely different direction while attempting to rack up fees.  And this is after I had consulted with well over a dozen different attorneys over the last year and a half.  At least, I was able to get all of my money back from my attorney when I called him out in no uncertain terms.  Of course, THEy always cover for themselves, he made no admission of wrong doing or adding to further psychological damage.

My hope is that in the decades to come: such practices will be considered a type of white collar crime when attorneys prey upon the vulnerabilities of both parties, drive emotional conflict further, making matters worse, and extracting further fees in the process.  Nice system, hey? 

At some point, expert testimony on this issue... .ah... .will find it's place.  But first, that expertise needs to be cultivated because it is NOT BEING TAUGHT in most graduate programs and many maritial therapists remain clueless about the non-pd (often codependent) need to extricate from a toxic relationship and recover.  Most expertise is by those who happen to be therapists/analysts who found themselves in these types of quagmires and became activists in increasing awareness around these type of dynamics.  That is the growing edge... .imo and it sorta organically follows alongside the other nonprofessional common people who became experts as a result of their toxic relationships with PD individuals and began to speak out while sharing greater awareness.  In many respects, the light bulb finally began to turn on when I came to this forum and was blown away by the experiential oneness.

That your atty makes a overgeneralized statement that it describes 1/2 of the mothers or 1/2 of the fathers the other half of the time... .sucks.  It does speak to the pervasiveness of the issue.  However, he seems to subscribe to an all-or-none attitude that would leave me feeling further helpless and paralyzed ... .while the meter runs, and nothing gets better... .and I try to avoid banging my head against the next same tree all over again.

I'm sorry I have nothing more to offer you at this time.   Please note, I am working on cultivating compassion and forgiveness for my ex in the context of her neural substrates, see it as essential to my own sense of humanity and values... .and just as often struggle with feelings of revenge or anger or getting even... .it is very tough to  let go and cut one's losses, to just move on... .ah, yeah... .kinda trite if you've been adored idealized then beaten down, abused, taken advantage of, devalued, discarded, then left for roadkill... .and like a moron you still feel love in your heart at a moment's notice.

This much I DO KNOW.  You can take it to the bank!  The severity and pervasiveness of PDs in USA is on the rise... .and guess what... .yup, many of the next generation of PDs will be the children of today that come from divorce and high conflict couples.

Please backchannel me if anything I have said strikes a chord in your interest to join this one-person rally... .

Thanks for the inspiration... .I'll cut and paste on my own thread, so as not to piggy back upon your thread.  I'm sorry.

[ForeverDad]

The lawyer's statement that it may take a year or more is probably true.  Around this site the general consensus is that an obstructive or entitles ex can require two years, more or less, going through every single step of the divorce process.

In my case, excluding ex's continuances or the court's continuances due to lack of allotted time, I had to check off the initial temp order (30 minutes putting ex in charge since she "worked from home" even though i had temp protective possession of home), required mediation attempts (we did 1 of 3), court's social worker's parenting investigation (I should move up from alternate weekends to 50% time), custody evaluation (ex should lose temp custody immediately), settlement conference (ended after about 5-10 minutes when she threatened to claw my eyes out if I sought custody), trial (narrowly averted by settlement), final decree.  In all, it was 2 weeks shy of 2 years.

Why does it take so long?  Partly due to the court needing to check off every item in the checklist if the parents don't cut it short.  Partly because the courts are so clogged with cases.  Partly because the court 'expects' the divorcing parents to realize they'll get a much quicker and more amicable outcome if they settle with their own terms and conditions.  Yes, you know, that's not going to happen when we're dealing with an entitled, obstructive and controlling spouse.  Disclaimer: Even in our cases settlements do happen - but only near the very end, when a big hearing or trial is looming and the ex is under pressure knowing the control and obstruction will be addressed by the court.  For that reason our best tactic is not to waste too much time trying to mediate early in the divorce process, at that point they're too entitled and not pressured enough to accept reality.  For example, I went through every step in the process, mediation had failed in the first session, but a year and a half later I arrived at court on Trial Morning and was greeted with the news that she wanted to settle.  Talk about "on the court house steps"!  Summary:  Mediation typically fails at the beginning but if enough of the poor behaviors become known then settlement is possible at the end.

Courts are often reluctant to speculate about the future and future behaviors, they deal with the here and now.  How to show that (1) past behaviors establish a pattern that is predictable for the future, (2) past behaviors indicate child abuse, child neglect or child endangerment is too great a risk or (3) that there is more going on than just a diagnosis without impacting poor behaviors?  That's what an expert witness is supposed to do.  I know Bill Eddy has done it and he's trained others.  Whether his website lists any near you or his staff can provide you with any assistance, well, I don't know.  For most of us the behavior was "just under the radar" of being actionable.

[Matt]

My second lawyer had a lot of experience with expert witnesses, and we began to plan to get one, but we were able to get a good settlement by other means - psych evals and depositions - so we didn't go down that path.

My suggestion would be to do three things:

First, double-check whether your lawyer really has the experience needed.  He sounds a lot like my first lawyer, who claimed to know all about BPD, but then told me it didn't matter and tried to get me to let it all go rather than learn about how kids are affected.  That is, a loser.

Second, I would suggest you spend some time reading and researching to find out what you can yourself.  Start with "Understanding The Borderline Mother", and follow up on the relevant footnotes - get those studies and read them, and look at their footnotes too.  Google "BPD impact child", "personality disorder affect children", and every other phrase you can think of that might turn up studies on the subject.  Read the abstracts and the conclusions to see if they are helpful, and if so read the whole paper and highlight the important parts.  Become a semi-expert on the subject yourself - you can probably do that in a few weekends.

Third, talk to psychologists in your area to find one who has good experience and knowledge and is willing to testify.  Each one you talk to who isn't right, ask for a referral to someone else.  "Who would you suggest I talk to who might be a good expert witness on this subject?".  Put in some quality time on this search.  You might have to go outside your immediate area, which could add to cost, since you'll have to pay the expert's travel costs and maybe even for her time in traveling to your city - could add thousands of dollars to the cost.  Find someone who is right for the job but also as close as possible.  Talk to her and "make friends" - get to know her - maybe meet her for coffee or lunch (at your expense) so you can decide if she is the right person.

If you only had a month to prepare this would be very difficult, but if you get started on it, you should have plenty of time.  Maybe you can find more than one person and choose the best and cheapest and closest.

If you handle it right, the court will be confronted with solid information.  This subject has been studied a lot and the truth is known:  a child raised by someone who has a PD and has not been getting effective treatment is at much, much higher risk of addiction, suicide, depression, and pretty much everything else that's bad.  This is proven fact, not an argument - anybody who looks at this subject with any objectivity - looks at the information, not speculation - will come to the same conclusion.  So the key is to present data credibly.  The other side cannot meet your data with theirs, because there is no data to the contrary.  (There are some muddy studies but they can easily be shown to be worthless - studies that use poor methods so they don't come to meaningful conclusions.)

Notice your attorney's role in all this.  Will he give you good idea and coaching, so you can do this work well and save the cost of having your attorney do it?  Will he give you examples of similar cases he has worked on successfully, or what he learned if he wasn't successful?  Will he encourage and support you?  Will he give you ideas for who to contact?  Will he show concern for you, and even more importantly for your child?

Or will he put down your efforts and tell you to throw in the towel and accept whatever the court decides to give you in terms of custody?

You also mention false accusations.  What kind of accusations have already been made, and how did you handle those?

[SeekerofTruth]

Aussie:

I SURPRISINGLY found this earlier today after coming across this particularly illuminating site for the first time last nite.  I hope it's okay for me to share the link here:  www.lovefraud.com/resources-guide/ 


  Perhaps you may find it useful.  Indeed, there appear to be an increasing number of available resources in the arena of a having an expert witness knowledgeable about the impact of PDs inside families and inclusive of divorce processes.