Honest opinions please

[Aussie JJ]

Ok,

I am still mostly on the separating board.  I am getting a lot better in many respects however I have to say that their are some things comming up that I am concerned about.  

Background here for you all:

Known since school.  12 + years?

Dating start of 2010 - start of 2013.  

Usual BPD stuff but she got pregnant within 3 months of moving in together.  Push pull massive emotional abuse.  

Didn't know anything about BPD until recently.  She was physically abusive at start of 2013 and I kicked her out to parents for a bit.  Normally she left after a rage and then came back after a week or so.  All patterns are there but it was always my fault I accepted all the blame.  :)ifference was this time I called her dad to pick her up.  I didnt know bit this must have triggered abandonment stuff.  

Anyeay.  She kept me on a string emotional abuse got worse telling me we would fix it until end of 2013.  Then tried to cit me out of sons life.  I had breakdown feb 2014.  Been seeing a psycologist and he has helped me alot.  

I confronted her 7? Weeks ago and said, we can work through anything but fact is you have BPD.  Lets fix thois like a sipportive couple blah blah.  She played responsive and dragged it out for 3 weeks before telling me to die in a fire.  She is aware of it but never truthful.  She let it slip twice during relationship and told me she could manage it.  I didn't understand and took her word for it.  I was simple in this respect.  I am now oh so aware.  

I have got her to agree to mediation again and she has said rock solid boundarys.  I think she has a perception of what she wants and NFI that I am going to put in double brick walls.  

I dont want to goto court.   I am lawyered up so to speak but I know that our son deserves parents that can work through it without courts.  I am fearful that she will flip out when I don't respond to her usual twisted thinking patterns.  I have really put her in a corner on a few things and she hasn't been able to cope.  

If I push for solid boundarys she will likely snap.  I am going to do this but so to speak, I need to know what the reaction I should expect is.  From the wealth of knowledge that you all have.  

What will be her reaction when I try to cover every aspect of ROFR and many other things.  

Should I be prepared to walk out of mediation and go to court straight away?


What is the typical response from them being in hate mode and someone trying to enforce boundarys?  


ATM its major hate mode... . when she sees me the shame mode is triggered as I know her behaviours. ...  what should I expect ?

[ForeverDad]

If I push for solid boundarys she will likely snap.  I am going to do this but... . 

Accept reality.  Do what you have to do (legally and morally) for yourself and your child.

What will be her reaction when I try to cover every aspect of ROFR and many other things. 

Denial. Obstruction. Continued rejection. Afterward she will reinterpret it all to suit her own perceptions.  In her mind rules are for others and don't apply to her.  When you try to reason with her she will say you're not being fair and even throw in that you don't care about or even love your child, etc.  Expect a return to court to resolve it, perhaps with Contempt of Court filings.  In other words, what you build up she will try to tear down.

Should I be prepared to walk out of mediation and go to court straight away?

Make a sincere effort but if you see it has failed then there's no point to wasting the mediator's time and your money.  Of course, politely explain why to the mediator and in court do state you really tried.  In my case, the magistrate never asked why it failed.

What is the typical response from them being in hate mode and someone trying to enforce boundaries? 

"Extinction Burst" of retaliatory allegations and obstruction.  Unfortunately the court likely won't care that she is making false allegations, if she alleges DV or child abuse, it will be investigated, every time, no matter how many times or how little proof she has.  Fortunately the court ignores a lot of this conflict and proceeds with the case.  Slowly of course.

[Matt]

Yeah, I agree - it's best to try mediation, and make a sincere effort at it, but it almost never works when one party has a severe psychological disorder like BPD.

In my state, mediation is mandatory, for three one-hour sessions, and any issues that are agreed can be finalized legally, very quick and cheap, with no lawyers.  So the scope of the legal process is narrowed and it might cost a little less.

Also, during mediation, you can let your wife talk as much as she wants, and notice what she is saying.  She may reveal her strategy, and she may make accusations she will later repeat in the legal process.  So mediation, even if it is unsuccessful, might give you a heads-up what to expect later, and that could be very useful.

In all likelihood, you'll need to learn about how the law works where you live, and what criteria are used to decide custody.  Find out about depositions - very helpful to me, because my wife was making false accusations, and depositions can be used to show when accusations are false.  Find out about Custody Evaluations - how they work and how much they cost.  Find out about psychological evaluations - objective testing not just interviews - how you can get psych evals for both parents so that information can be taken into account.  Find out about expert witnesses and whether one is needed to prove how a parent's BPD or other psych disorder is likely to impact the child long-term.

And above all, make sure your attorney has experience with issues like this.  Don't take his word for it - ask for examples and lessons learned.  Listen carefully for BS.  Lots of attorneys claim to know how to handle cases like this but not all really have solid experience, and if not, he might do you more harm than good.

[ForeverDad]

Mediation seldom works early in the divorce or custody process, the other is simply too entitled that early in the process.  Later, close to a big hearing or a trial, yes, a settlement can be possible, especially if the other believes you may win.

[Matt]

Mediation seldom works early in the divorce or custody process, the other is simply too entitled that early in the process.  Later, close to a big hearing or a trial, yes, a settlement can be possible, especially if the other believes you may win.

That's exactly how it worked in my case, and many other members here.

We accomplished nothing in mediation, so I authorized my attorney to move ahead with the divorce.  Others here suggested depositions and a Custody Evaluation, with objective psych evals, and those helped a lot.  At the end - literally the day before the trial was scheduled - my wife agreed to a proposal very similar to what I had proposed many months (and dollars) earlier.  Her attorney clear saw the writing on the wall - if they didn't settle, we would go to trial, and a lot of stuff would go into the public record that they didn't want there... .

[MommaBear]

Well, you wanted an honest opinion, so here is mine.

First off, our situations are VERY similar.

We tried mediation, but because the mediator didn't know about his BPD, she went in thinking we were 2 completely reasonable people. He pushed. He tried to break my boundaries. He made threats and played games. He dragged our child into it, as a means of terrifying me.

I got a lawyer and never looked back.

My lawyer is an investment in PEACE OF MIND. I sleep at night. When he plays games and tries to push my boundaries, I make a call, and before long his lawyer is reminding him of the consequences of his behavior.

The lawyer keeps him in check, and that, to me, is worth every penny.

Yes, he's freaking out over boundaries. He's pushing, fighting, getting rude, crude and bullying any and every way he can. He's playing dirty games and doing everything in his power to rattle me emotionally.

I kind of see my lawyer as a pitbull trained to scare off his invasion of my new (and still rather fragile) boundaries.

If you have any evidence  / proof of her having BPD, then I would suggest taking your chances with the courts (it's scary, yes, but of course, talk to your lawyer and see what your odds are).

I mean, if mediation is working and you're able to sleep at night, feeling like you can still heal and have your boundaries respected, more power to you. If not, then have your lawyer fight the good fight for you, get some sleep, and be strong and stable for your son.

Those are my priorities, and while it's intimidating to start, and terrifying at first, suddenly it gets easier and you realize you don't have to put up with their tantrums, rages, bullying and all around craziness anymore. Suddenly you can BREATHE and HEAL and start to see the light.

Anyway, that's my honest opinion. Biased as a result of my own situation, but still, that's my honest opinion just the same. Lawyer up, and don't let her get to you. Be strong for your son. He's already got one parent with BPD, he needs to other to heal, to take charge, and to be the one stable parent left in his life.

[Aussie JJ]

*SIGH*

She just put in complaint to national board about my psycologist diagnosing her.  Now he cant attend mediation with me and another headache.  He never diagnosed her said she sounds and behaves like... .BPD.  She actually told me once she is supposed to have BPD in slip up when talking once so it all tied together. 

Isolating me from more and more supports.  Im practicing all my one line responses for mediation and everything but it is driving me crazy. 

[Aussie JJ]

I am so >.<

Just stuck on the next BS fight after the next BS fight.  Trying for 11 things with mediation and only want to get three things through.  Hopefully I can compromise on others and get those three important things. 

[MommaBear]

Have your lawyer fight for you. She'll never let you discuss those three things. They drag everything but the kitchen sink into these negotiations just to wear you down, obscure the issues, and force people to give them what they want just to shut them up, like children having a tantrum.

Unless your mediator is skilled with BPD, have your lawyer take the lead.

[livednlearned]

I don't think it's a failure to use lawyers when you're dealing with someone who has a severe psychological disorder. Your child is going to thrive based on how your interact with him, how you validate him, how you teach him to think flexibly and manage his emotions and behave in moderate ways. If you have strong boundaries, he will learn that from you.

Negotiating with someone who doesn't have a stable sense of self is extremely difficult. The best thing you can do is to focus on getting the best custody arrangement for you and your child. We often think our kids don't see what's going on, but they do. They may try to cope with a mentally ill parent in ways that break your heart, but they still see the behavior and know that this person is one seriously difficult high-conflict person. You'll be forgiven by your child for choosing to set strong boundaries, is my guess.

BPD sufferers don't have boundaries. Everything you do from now on has to be about strong boundaries. Pretend you have a titanium backbone and create watertight custody orders. Even then, your BPD sufferer will test everything. Like FD said, there will probably be an extinction burst. Some bursts involve empty threats and verbal abuse. Some may involve false allegations. That's why people recommend not being anywhere physically close to your ex without a third-party witness or a recording device, especially when a boundary is being set, or a hearing is coming up, or legal papers are being served.

[Matt]

Like FD said, there will probably be an extinction burst. Some bursts involve empty threats and verbal abuse. Some may involve false allegations. That's why people recommend not being anywhere physically close to your ex without a third-party witness or a recording device, especially when a boundary is being set, or a hearing is coming up, or legal papers are being served.

Yes, and there's one other pitfall here... .

When you set a boundary, or make an important decision that you think is right - and often you can't be sure exactly what's right, so you have to consult with others and then make your best judgment - and when (not if!) the person with BPD reacts negatively to your choices and boundaries - when he pushes back through the legal system, or makes accusations that aren't fair, or finds some other way to punish you for not doing what he wants you to do - it's very easy to buy into the idea that "I did X and that caused him to do Y, so I'm responsible for Y."

You file a motion that gives him less time with the child than he wants, so he tells the child you're trying to keep them apart.  "You did this - you caused Child to be upset - by trying to keep us apart!"

Or you ask the court to appoint a psychologist who can administer psych evals, so he threatens to leave and not be in the child's life.  "You're trying to prove I'm crazy and I can't deal with you so I'm going to leave and you'll have to tell Child why you drove me away!"

Etc.  You make a choice, the disordered party reacts to that choice, and whatever he does is your fault.

You have to be prepared for that and see it for what it is.  You are responsible for your choices - and some of them will be tough - but you are not responsible for how the other person reacts to your choices.  And your decisions are not wrong because he does something destructive in reaction.

About mediation:

I think your strategy is good - identify the most important things, and add in some other things that you want - "gotta-haves" and "wanna-haves" -  sounds like you have 3 gotta-haves and 8 wanna-haves.  So you can be flexible about the 8 but firm about the 3.

That's a good approach, but it probably won't work, because successful mediation requires two parties who are ready to deal with each other rationally, and from what you have shared, that's probably not the case.  So you will go into mediation well-prepared, and the result may not be what you want.  Don't feel bad, and don't agree to something you don't think is right - stand firm, at least on your three gotta-haves.  Accept that mediation didn't work and didn't produce a good outcome, and it's not your fault - it's just pretty impossible to negotiate with an irrational person.

If you agreed to give up some of the 8 less-critical items, but you didn't come to an agreement in mediation, those items aren't lost;  you can still make a proposal that is more favorable to you, and take it through the legal process.  And that's probably what you will have to do.  Most of us find that it is possible to get a good settlement, but not until shortly before the court will make its final ruling.

My case settled less than 24 hours before the trial, and the settlement was pretty good, but we could have come to the same agreement several months before, and saved a lot of stress and money.  But my wife wouldn't negotiate seriously til the writing was on the wall and she was very close to getting a very bad (for her) result at trial.

[livednlearned]

*SIGH*

She just put in complaint to national board about my psycologist diagnosing her.  Now he cant attend mediation with me and another headache.  He never diagnosed her said she sounds and behaves like... .BPD.  She actually told me once she is supposed to have BPD in slip up when talking once so it all tied together. 

Isolating me from more and more supports.  Im practicing all my one line responses for mediation and everything but it is driving me crazy. 

This is one of the reasons why some therapists won't work with BPD sufferers.

My ex filed complaints against my son's therapist, my therapist, and the parenting coordinator (psychologist) involved in our case. Fortunately, he tipped his head well in advance when he made threats. All of them contacted their boards in advance and nothing came of the complaints.

[Matt]

*SIGH*

She just put in complaint to national board about my psycologist diagnosing her.  Now he cant attend mediation with me and another headache.  He never diagnosed her said she sounds and behaves like... .BPD.  She actually told me once she is supposed to have BPD in slip up when talking once so it all tied together. 

Isolating me from more and more supports.  Im practicing all my one line responses for mediation and everything but it is driving me crazy. 

This is one of the reasons why some therapists won't work with BPD sufferers.

My ex filed complaints against my son's therapist, my therapist, and the parenting coordinator (psychologist) involved in our case. Fortunately, he tipped his head well in advance when he made threats. All of them contacted their boards in advance and nothing came of the complaints.

Sounds like there might be two issues here.

One is that the accusations are false, and your psychologist can probably stand up for himself and show that.  And if you can get all the documentation about that, it will help you show that your ex makes false accusations and doesn't play well with others.

The other aspect is having your psychologist present during mediation.  That may be a lost cause;  even when he shows he did nothing wrong, he still won't be welcome in those sessions, and he probably won't want to be where he isn't welcome.  I don't think this is a big loss, because mediation is about finding mutually acceptable solutions.

Is there another mediator involved or was he the only professional involved in mediation?  Is there someone else who can mediate, or will you need to scrap mediation and move directly to the legal process?  (I don't think that would be a bad thing, since your ex clearly isn't able to negotiate productively anyway.)