How do you ask your BPD offspring for help without triggering a rage attack?

[HealingSpirit]

Hi Everyone,

We have been enjoying a much quieter household for the past few weeks, thanks to my learning to validate and use S.E.T.  So I have found what works to de-escalate my BPDD17's rages most of the time.  But another reason she's raging less is because I have given up on insisting that DD follow through with the few chores we've asked her to do every day.  Our T told us that I need to back off and let DH step in and handle ALL the discipline.  Therefore, there has been very little discipline lately.  I love DH, but he is clueless as to how to go about this.

I really thought I was onto something when I suggested to my DH that he come up with a Human Resource model for family discipline, and a family Policies & Procedures document (to illustrate how we want things done) and Quality Control Standards that explains the standards we wish to live by.  But, my DH got hung up with "analysis paralysis" again.  So we have no written limits that he will enforce.  -sigh-  (I still thought it was a good idea to speak to an engineer in his own language.)

I have not yet found what works to get our DD to follow through daily with the few simple household chores we've asked her to do, like HER laundry, making sure the dogs have food & water, and keeping the kitchen clean.  She ignores verbal or text reminders, and won't follow a written list or chart.  Her room is another story.  We let her keep her room however she wants it.  It is her room, her space.  So, naturally, it looks like a toxic waste dump.   

MY problem is that her "toxic waste" (usually several piles of laundry, shoes, knick knacks, papers, and junk she is sorting through) is continually spilling out of her room and landing in the hallway outside her door, which also bleeds into the laundry room/service porch.  Some of the stuff belongs to her BF, and she was supposed to send it to him when he moved two months ago.  I have tried various tactics to assist her in packing and sending the poor guy his stuff, but she won't have it.  I finally realized it was probably too emotional for her to say goodbye to his things (by sending them to him), as his clothes & "things" are a physical part of him that she can still hold onto.  So, I get that. 

But, I can't stand walking through their clutter every time I enter the house!  And I'm getting very tired of coming home to a messy house with dirty dishes and food wrappers everywhere, a sink full of DD's dirty dishes and evidence of whatever "project" DD did during the day on the table, like nail polish, drawings, empty DVD boxes, wet bathing suit, etc.  I have talked with her about this many times.  DH has talked with her many times.  Nothing changes.  If we leave the dishes there until she does them, they accumulate all week.  It seems, she will only do the dishes when DH cuts off something she wants.  Then, she acts like such a martyr for cleaning up all the messes SHE made in the first place.  To hear her tell it, you'd think she was our slave, for insisting she clean up after herself.  It's almost comical, really.

Yesterday, at DD's suggestion, we went out to lunch together for the first time in months.  We actually had a nice meal together and I was proud of both of us for not arguing.  So things ARE getting better between us. When we were done, I asked her if she'd like my help packing up and sending BF's things.  She turned stone cold and said, "No.  I told you, I'll handle it!"  So, then I set my boundary.  I told her I was fine with letting her handle it in her own time, and I understand how hard it is for her to part with his stuff, but that the perpetual mess outside her room and in the laundry room was really bothering me and that I would not tolerate it anymore.  I told her, "It isn't fair to make the rest of the family have to tread around your stuff every day for weeks.  I'd like you to keep it all in your room from now on."  She said, "Ok. That's fair." 

When we got home from lunch, I asked her to please clear out the hallway and laundry room.  Hours went by.  Her "stuff" was still there that evening, so I picked it up and placed it all into her room and shut the door.  It took me about a minute to do.     I've decided that is what I will do from now until she moves.  -sigh-  I need to save my energy for the real battles.  It's obvious, DD17 is merely biding her time until she can move across the country to live with her BF.  I suffer more by asking for cooperation than I do by just handling it myself.

I've heard many of you say that your BPD offspring also make messes and won't lift a finger to help you.  Does anybody have any successful strategy to post?  What do you do that works in getting your pwBPD to help you? 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

I'll give you a bit of a different perspective (please bear with me)

I can't stand walking through the clutter... .  I'm getting very tired of coming home to a messy house.

You are, she isn't (no reason for her to lift a finger)

I have talked with her about this many times.  :)H has talked with her many times.  Nothing changes.

Why should anything change? If someone else will eventually do the job, it's easier to "endure" the "annoying talks"

It seems, she will only do the dishes when DH cuts off something she wants.  Then, she acts like such a martyr for cleaning up all the messes SHE made in the first place.

Aaah, now we're onto something... . 

The best way to do that though, is to have a system of "positive reinforcement" rather than punishments:

'These are your responsibilities, and these are the privileges you earn by that.' (her choice - no need to remind, plead, talk, etc. she does it - good, she keeps her privilege. She doesn't do it, she can earn her privilege as soon as she fulfills her responsibilities)

I suffer more by asking for cooperation than I do by just handling it myself.

And that's the music to the ears of all teenagers - (not just the ones w/BPD) "mom's gonna do that if I drag my feet long enough"  

It's not as easy as I posted - but you get the picture. I loved the part of the Boundaries book where the parents of a grown child come to the counselor and complain how he has all these problems, won't lift a finger to do anything etc. etc. and the counselor says: "Looks like he doesn't have a problem." followed by a stunned silence "You are the ones left with all the problems. His irresponsibility is not causing him any discomfort, you are carrying all of his burdens. Why should he want to change? Now, would you like me to help you make it his problem, instead of yours?"

Hang in there HealingSpirit. This should help you get some ideas rolling. However, like you say - your dd is probably going to leave soon, I'm sure you'll find the wisdom to choose the right balance in this.

[lever.]

It's difficult,healingspirit- I have just spent a week of slavery and drudgery to a woman in her 30s and her children-picking up laundry, cooking all meals, bringing plates and food down from bedrooms, finding wet towels in odd places-but at least I knew it was temporary!

What does she rely on you for still?

Do you give her money or lifts?

Whatever it is I would make it contingent on the chores being done first.

It gets harder as they get older and have their own money etc.

At the age your daughter is I found transport (lifts or use of car) my best bargaining tool.

I also agree with using them as positive re-enforcers rather than withdrawing them as punishment (it just depends how you phrase it)

eg "when you have tidied the kitchen you can have your money"

It may help to some extent but this seems to be a common problem

[Sstepdad]

Yes it is difficult and its easy to be conflict avoidant  and not bothering.

Last weekend I successfully had SD move her boxes of stuff from the living room since she moved back 5 months ago.

I am making new screen doors for the French doors her boxes were in front of, so I asked her to help me by moving them out of the way and put them in her room so I can get to the doors, I have not even put them together yet. But if I had asked her to please move them she would perceive it as an order and get all defensive why they were there.

I have to think a while to phrase requests so they don't sound remotely like an order.

[tristesse]

Hello Healing Spirit

This is the problem all parents have with their children, BPD's and nBPD's. It is just far more difficult with a BPD child , and even more so once they become adults. ( I have the adult experience ).

I agree with lever and pessim-optomist, make a positive reinforcement instead of a discipline.

give her the assigned list of chores and outline the positive ... .Once you have completed the dishes you may use the laptop, or once your laundry has been done for the week, you may use car. No dishes were done today, so no laptop use this evening etc.

My DD is 30 years old, so it is hard to enforce this type of stuff with her, although I do try since she currently has no drivers license or vehicle, she will rely on me or dh or ds for rides, I have said that I am unable to take you right now because I have an entire house to clean and dishes that need to be done, etc. She gets mad, but she also knows that I just worked a 60 hour week and she has been home every single day, so she could have had it done.

Whatever method you try, I hope it works to everybody's benefit and satisfaction. Hang in there.

[HealingSpirit]

Pessim-Optimist,

Thank you so much for all your wisdom in this.  You are so right, the ONLY thing that ever works to get DD to help is when SHE wants/needs something.  I read a parenting book a long time ago that called this "Grandma's rule:" wait until the child wants something and then tell them to finish what you asked first.  I love it because it conveys the concept of earning what she wants.  I have practiced that technique ever since... .but for some reason, it stopped working when DD was a young teenager.

I loved the part of the Boundaries book where the parents of a grown child come to the counselor and complain how he has all these problems, won't lift a finger to do anything etc. etc. and the counselor says: "Looks like he doesn't have a problem." followed by a stunned silence "You are the ones left with all the problems. His irresponsibility is not causing him any discomfort, you are carrying all of his burdens. Why should he want to change? Now, would you like me to help you make it his problem, instead of yours?"

I LOVE THIS!  I wish our T was this direct. That "Boundaries" book is next on my list!  Ever since DD was little, I did my best to reinforce the behavior I wanted, and to ignore (or give less attention to) behavior I didn't want. I have always tried to analyze a situation first and try to arrange the consequences so that DD was the only one to suffer when she did not follow through.  It worked ok until DD hit junior high.  I was very upset with myself because I didn't understand what I was doing wrong.

Then, our T told me my DH was inadvertently undermining my limits and authority by giving in to DD when I wasn't around.   (Not deliberately. DH is just clueless due to ADD & Aspergers.)  So DD learned to "play us" like cards.  Our T has been working with DH, but very slowly.  And because DD now thinks that my use of "Grandma's rule" is just another form of punishment and she thinks I don't love her because I don't let her have everything she wants, our T suggested that DH do ALL the discipline.  She is Daddy's Little Girl, so she pretty much gets whatever she wants from him. -sigh-   I guess I realized the other day that some battles (like getting help around the house) are not worth fighting.  I don't have the energy for it, and when I realize I'm the one being drained, I need to stop and change that.  Like you said, it's finding the right balance.

Lever,

This is brilliant!

Whatever it is I would make it contingent on the chores being done first.

It gets harder as they get older and have their own money etc.

At the age your daughter is I found transport (lifts or use of car) my best bargaining tool.

I have found this to be the case as well.  The car, cell phone data access, and internet connection are really the only bargaining tools we have that get her attention anymore.  I'm not sure if it's something I've done wrong, or the way my lovely DH undermines me, but our DD sees right through "Grandma's rule" now.  When she doesn't get her way, she thinks she's being punished when I ask her to do something first.  It used to work, now it doesn't. We stopped paying for her gas and gave her a list of things she could do to earn gas money by helping us around the house.  She hasn't lifted a finger, and the empty gas tank eventually got to her.  She raged for hours!     Unfortunately, DH gave her gas money the next day when she needed the car for a job interview.  That bought her another week of freedom without lifting a finger first AND it reinforced that her rage will eventually work.  Ugh!  On my worst days, I just want to crawl in a hole and give up. (Thank heaven for Prozac!)  But, when I weigh what I want/need DH or DD to do against what it would take for me to have that happen in the light of DH giving her what she wants anyway, I realized sometimes it's better for me to just do it myself.

On a positive note, the other night, DH got her attention by turning off her wifi connection. She came out asking for his help to reconnect her iPad.  He told her he would turn the wifi back on AFTER she did the dishes.   DD couldn't do dishes fast enough.  

I'm trying to get DH to write out our clear expectations and what she gets to earn by following them AHEAD of time.  He says, "I'm working on it."  -sigh-  Alas, nothing happens very quickly in my household.  

Sstepdad,

I think you're onto something here that may just work... . Like you as a step-parent, my "authority" as a parent isn't working, so I have to think outside the box.

I am making new screen doors for the French doors her boxes were in front of, so I asked her to help me by moving them out of the way and put them in her room so I can get to the doors, I have not even put them together yet. But if I had asked her to please move them she would perceive it as an order and get all defensive why they were there.

I have to think a while to phrase requests so they don't sound remotely like an order.

This is Brilliant!  Ask DD to help ME do something, rather than asking her to do it.  Hmmm.  I'll try that.  She does usually help me bring in the groceries when I ask, unless she's on the phone.  And to prevent that, I call her when I'm leaving the store so she knows I'll be home in 15 minutes.

You've helped me clarify that my approach in dealing with our DD needs to be coming from a place of influence, not authority, even though I am her mother.  Our T has been telling me this, but I've been too frustrated to understand what he meant.  Your example helped me clarify that.  If I behave more like an aunt, or a step-mother, rather than a parent, maybe she'll respond better.  

Thank you all for your great insight!

[HealingSpirit]

Tristesse,

I just saw your reply.  Thank you so much for your very clear ideas!  I will share them with DH.  Until I learn better boundary skills, the only way my limits will work with DD is if DH is 100% on board.  I can't tell you how many times I've made chores charts and incentive programs for our DD to earn privileges.  None of it worked because DD would just convince her dad (privately) to give her the thing I was trying to make her earn.

It's nice to have your reference that BPD makes this all the harder.  I only have one child, so I don't have any reference that the skills I do have might actually work with a different child.  It helps to be reminded of that.