Disciplining a Borderline Teen?

[scudrunner]

I apologize if this has been covered 1000 times before.

We have a 16 year old borderline daughter.  All this started about two years ago.  Since then it's been regular treatment, but progress (if any) can best be measured in furlongs per fortnight.  

My question is how have you found to best discipline a borderline teen?

Going a couple of weeks with good behavior has gone from being "guardedly optimistic" to just waiting for the upcoming crash.  What is so frustrating is that she knows she's going to get caught almost immediately due to the checks that are in place.  If she gets on a computer, I know it, if she gets on the phone, we know it.  Recently we had to alarm her room because she decided to sneak out in the middle of the night, steal money from her mother's purse, and walk 7 miles across a busy interstate to buy a burner phone from an all night Walmart because she was grounded from the phone.  And of course the reasons/justification they come up with for why they had to do it, well that gives a whole new definition to "fuzzy logic."  Those are the exchanges that would make Abbott and Costello proud.

After the theft from my wife she is no longer the enabler, but how do you enforce rules and discipline effectively?  Grounding doesn't work as she never gets to the end of the grounding.  Taking away her television, DVD player, iPod, computer, etc. doesn't work as she just keeps losing things.  You name it; I think we've tried it.

As you all know, finding books about BPD with teens is hard enough, but try finding one that addresses how to enforce rules and discipline them?

I know many of you have been here.  Have you found an effective answer?

Thanks for your time and letting me vent.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

Hello scudrunner,



Welcome to the Parenting board!

You are correct, this topic tends to come up a lot. 

To your disappointment, there isn't a quick and easy fix out there... .Every child is unique and some things work for some, not for others. Given the fact that your daughter is a teenager (a turbulent age for any child - healthy, or not), you have a handful on your plate - but you already know that, and that's why you are here, correct?

The main similarity between the kids w/BPD that we see here on the board is that punitive discipline (taking things away as a punishment) usually doesn't work too well, or at all. It starts a down-hill spiral of defiance or depression/discouragement, or both.

Now, that doesn't mean you loose this important tool - you just need to make an adjustment to turn it around into something positive = earning privileges by desired behavior:

"You can use your computer as soon as you finish your chores for the day."

It is a really tricky territory, scudrunner.  At 16, you can't control your daughter. You CAN control her environment, and try to find what motivates her. By setting reasonable expectations for your particular situation (what you know your dd is capable of) and setting up the stage for her to succeed, you can create opportunities for her to learn more skills to become more responsible, to tolerate frustration, to navigate conflict, etc. etc.

Those things don't come easy, and require a high level of skill on your part. But also, your dd needs to be motivated to get better.

What is your situation? Does she have therapy? How does she relate to you about her problems - are you at continual odds, or does she have moments when she shares with you and is open to talk about her problems from her perspective?

[scudrunner]

Hi pessim-optimist,

Thanks for all the information.

You're so correct.  If I were to try and plot things on paper it would look like a bimodal statistical graph and you wouldn't be able to tell where psychosis ends and teenager begins.

To answer your questions, she has been in therapy 2 hours a week for the past two years, although we even have issues there with her stonewalling the therapist ("I'm in a good mood, I don't want to talk about that," etc.)  She she is also under the care of a psychiatrist who regulates her meds. 

The fear of abandonment is useful because she will quickly buy into an opportunity to talk, but by the same token she will try and use the opportunity to try and monopolize all of her parents time to the detriment of others in the household.  Of course her perspective is that it's everyone else's fault, no one understands her, she's being mentally abused by being punished for breaking the rules, etc. 

The huge issue here that she has created for herself is a lack of social interaction.  To gain attention and sympathy she would start telling friends and people at church that a boy she knew blew her off and told her to just go kill herself.  That never happened and the boy was devastated when he found out.  Her contact with others has now been limited because to get attention she would tell people in the youth group she was being abused.  As you can imagine that set a wheel in motion that she had not planned upon.  When she found out they were going to involve CPS, she had to come clean.  At that point her whole dirty past was brought out, her psychologist had to be called in, etc. to get things resolved.  The huge issue here is other children.  It's one thing to endanger herself, but claims like that can involve younger siblings.  So, she's created a very small world for herself, and by continually breaking the rules it gets smaller.  That said, what can you do?  You can't just say, "Oh well I give up" and let it all go.  So we just have to stay the course.

As you already know, I could go on and on.

[jellibeans]

Dear scudrunner

I want to suggest a book for you to get... .Overcoming BPD by Valerie Porr... .it really has helped me a great deal... .also the support is helpful too. I have a dd17 and this summer has been exhausting for me... .I heistate to give advise to you but know that you are not alone.

Some things I have done to keep my home safe... .we bought a safe and we lock up all car keys, purse, meds etc. This gives me some comfort that she is not sneaking out of the house in the middle of the night. We also secured her bedroom window so she can't get out that way. We have an alarm system that peeps when a door or window is opened so I know if she is getting out in the middle of the night. I also have locks on my office and bedroom doors so she can't steal from me. My office protects my privacy and my computer has a passcode so she can't get on it.

My dd17 struggles agreat deal with relationships and we see an increase in wild behavior when she is struggling with a friend. I am hoping my daughter improves with time and she matures a bit more. I think that is going to be a bit painful for us all. Try to find a therapist your dd likes and is willing to go to... .my dd17 is doing a dbt therapy course right now and parents are included so I do think that can help more. AT least I have read when the family is involved there is a better chance for success.

My dd17 lies a lot as well and has told stories of abuse. Also makes up stories for sympathy. It is funny how similar these kids all are... .the book by Porr is very helpful and I would start with that. Tools here help to like validating, SET and setting boundaries... .read the side bar to the right. We are here for you... .hang in there

[scudrunner]

WOW jellibeans,

It sounds like I was reading my own story! 

Right now my wife keeps her purse etc. locked in her car out in the garage, and I just made the remark last night that I'll put in a simple keypad style wall safe.  The doors have double-sided deadbolts and for the first time ever we take the keys with us to bed at night.  Her bed now has an infrared fence around it so once we go to bed and I throw the switch she can't get out of bed at all without us knowing.  That protects against both her getting out of the house, and getting up to wander the house, or try to hurt herself. 

Like you all of my things are locked in my office, and the computers, phones, etc. are all secured appropriately. 

We have no answer for what brought this on although the doctor suspects the maternal genetic component.  She was bullied in 7th grade, and a new sibling that came along around the same time probably made her feel like she wasn't getting as much attention.  She was always a daddy's girl and if anything was probably spoiled.  When all of this started, of course daddy's girl got daddy's attention to try and get her well.  The therapist quickly told me I needed to back off the little girl treatment as it was feeding things and I knew he was right, so I did.  Of course that also had an effect, and when she gets punished now she demands to know why I hate her and wants me to admit it.  [Insert heartbreak here.]

Anyway, thanks so much for sharing.  I hate it that you're dealing with this, but it does help to know that it's not just me handling things wrong.  Also thank you for the book suggestion.  I'm pulling it up on Amazon as soon as I post this!  Trying to find books about BPD in teens is really hard to find.  It seems they're all for spouses of borderlines.  God help them all; I can't imagine what kind of rough that has to be.

[pessim-optimist]

Trying to find books about BPD in teens is really hard to find. 

That's correct. However, this one might be helpful:

Borderline Personality Disorder in Adolescents

[jellibeans]

Dear scudrunner

I am impressed with your security measures... .all our stories are very similar. My dd also was bullied and raped. Not sure I can believe the rape but I have given her my support. My dd just turned 17 this summer... .she counting down until she is 18 and can leave the house and live on her own. I do see small improvements with her but there are always the familar set backs that always come along.

Valerie Porr's book is really good and I have read them all. I spent tonight also reading it again. Keep trying to find the middle path. I read something interesting about lying that gave me some comfort. Porr feels the pwBPD lies to avoid stress and shame etc associated with the deed she is lying about. I think it helps to think of it this way rather than negatively that they are trying to manipulate and they don't care about the consequences. I actually think they care very much about the consequences but they don't have the impulse control and that is what leads them into trouble.

It is a kind of dance we do with our kids... .giving them freedoms and trust until they lose it... .then starting over again. It is tiring for sure. Your post really got to me... .I really don't know how to discipline my dd17 and I hope others chime in on this topic. I know how to communicate/validate and stay calm but I am always left with the destructive behaviors.

Get a big safe... .my dd was able to get into our last safe with a hammer... .it took a while but she was pretty committed to getting inside. The new safe is twice as big and it secured to the wall in the garage.

I hope things get better for you and your family... .I have been doing this a bit longer and although at times things are pretty tough... .I do think she shows some improvements. Be hopeful is important... .hard to do daily but I try.

[scudrunner]

pessim-optimist: Thank you for the book suggestion.  I don't recall who, but someone mentioned that book to me in the past, but I didn't buy it because in looking through the Table of Contents it just didn't seem to have what I was looking for.  Specifically how to discipline and make a teen with BPD understand that actions have consequences.  Perhaps my hopes of finding direction in that area are unrealistic.  I'll go see if I can find a hard copy in a store this week and give it another look.

jellibeans:Thank you again for sharing, and for your insight.  I have a large commercial grade safe in the garage, and perhaps I should just use that one.  I was just thinking that something in the kitchen that was easy access would be less of a pain when it came to putting up the meds etc., but it may be that we're far beyond the old "just trying to keep the honest people honest" as the saying goes.  The one saving grace I have is that mine is never left alone for more than 10 minutes or so which limits her abilities to get into trouble.

I feel my daughter is likely counting the days until 18 as well, and I've had that conversation with her therapist.  In doing all a parent can do to protect their child, when that day comes it has been suggested that the prudent move is to petition the court for guardianship as left to her own devices, the outlook is scarey.  The court could very well not approve the petition, but at least then I would have tried.  The fear of the late night knock on the door after they turn 18 is horrifying.

Thanks for the kind words.  Security is an area in which I've had some experience, so through the course of all of this I had to implement measures to track everything that took place on the computers, on the cell phones, on the home phones, etc.  You hate to have to do that, but in doing so we were able to head off many bad events.  The sad thing is that I didn't try to hide it.  My daughter even knew I was monitoring everything, but as you know with borderlines it's "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead."  All they seem to care about is that impulse, right then, with absolutely no regard for the consequences even if they know the  consequences are only 15 minutes away. 

I did download Valerie's book last night and have started reading it as time permits.  Thanks again for all of the insights. 

[jellibeans]

scudrunner

although gaining guardianship of your child might be temping I do think that when she turns 18 it is better to let her go. I really think it is then that they realize how much we helped and supported them. With my dd I am not worried about her departure... .I doubt she will actually leave and it will be me setting new boundaries and encouraging her to go out on her own. My dd is all talk and no action. She had a job for about a month and then was fired... .I hope this year she can find a job and keep it. I do think that would help with her self confidence and add to her independence. Trying to keep her at home I feel might be just an attempt to control her and that is not something I want to do.

I posted the following on another thread but I will repost here. Here are the things to avoid when dealing with a person with BPD... .this is from Porr's book

Denying your loved one has BPD

Making it about you by personalizing, defending or justifying yourself

over-apologizing

expressing anger

expressing disappointment

being over-controling

capitulating to demands

being inconsistent

feeling hopeless or believing nothing will help

stuffing down your emotions, fearing your own feelings, avoiding the experiencing your feelings

willfulness, or focusing on being right rather that being effective

focusing on being liked rather than being effective

and finally she says we need to learn how to tolerate our own distress, especially when we have to say no to our kids. Above all it is important to radially accept BPD and it's effect on us and our families. This last point is very important I feel... .I am also in distress when my dd17 acts out... .learning how to tolerate and get through it is very important.

[scudrunner]

Thanks jellibeans,

Working my way through this book is very interesting.  Every page has more things we've been through.

You make some good points, and I doubt that my daughter would stay gone for long either, but it's what happens while she's gone that is the danger.  When she took off in the middle of the night, her plan was to go buy a burner phone, and get in contact with a delinquent that she had known in school to come get her.  I asked how she was going to get her meds and her response was that she would just quit taking them.  In the past, even trying to scale them back sent her to the E.R. after a single lesser dose.  Then I asked what she was going to do about food, and her response was, "I wouldn't eat."

From a selfish perspective there are also greater risks with girls.  I love my daughter, but left to her own devices I could see her using sex or anything else she had at her disposal to get the validation and attention she seeks.   She has brought our entire family life to a devastating halt for the last two years.  The last thing I need is her showing back up on our doorstep, pregnant by some derelict, hooked on drugs, or infected with some terminal disease.  What is the other option though?  Do you tell them once they walk out the door, don't come back looking for help?  I don't see either of us doing that, so we're back to trying to mitigate the bad things that can happen which is exponentially harder once they are free to go do whatever they want.

I suppose there are no easy answers. 

Thank you again for your thoughts and insight.  Talking to counselors and doctors is one thing, but none of them I've ever met have ever lived with a BPD child day in and out. 

[theplotthickens]

I really like the parenting strategies in "What Works for Bipolar Kids" and "Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: How to Stop Walking on Eggshells."  Thousands of dollars worth of therapy and such did not improve our family functioning one bit; in fact my daughter uses therapists as enablers to rescue her from consequences.  She is really very good at tricking therapists.   Also, I found DBT of limited effectiveness for ME, as my role as guardian does nor center around emotions, letting go, or reframing the truth is by finding a 'middle path.'    I found these ideas incredibly unrealistic for real life parenting.

I am a practical person.  :)on't give me hippie theories or buddhism; give me a plan of action.  What will replenish your energy as a parent really depends on what your personality is.  What has helped me the most is:

1) Defining my MOST important goals as a parent.  Keep the main thing the main thing.

2) Focus on the strengths that I have; and what I CAN give.  Rock in your areas of strength.  

3) Be comfortable with who you are, and be comfortable in your authoritative role as a parent.  :)on't ever go against your intuition, or relinquish your authority to the supposed experts who are here today and gone tomorrow.  Remember, you are the one who will have to live with your child, and you are the one who will be there picking up the pieces in 5 years, 10 years.  Be open to whatever you can gain, or learn, or grow from; but stay in your parenting role and maintain a healthy hierarchy.

4) Set up an environment for sucess.  For us, this means I have a locked room; n o sharps or knives out, pills locked up etc.  We have an alarm system.  Internet is coded and my daughter doesn't have a cell phone.  Set up the physical environment for safety and peace of mind.

5) Focus on your role as guardian, and what is in the best interests of your child.   Establish routines, hire a therapy team that works well for your family, establish support networks, establish areas of interest/strength.  I do not expect my child to like me; I focus on using whatever leverage I have to encourage my child's growth and health.  I am perfectly comfortable living my values without apology and establishing rules in my home; a healthy hierarchy is what is best for our kids and ourselves.  Kids do not feel safe when they are running the place with their illness.

6) Have a life.  Outside of the mental illness and caregiving!  Get excited about a new hobby.  Have friends and a social life.  Learn something!  It is so easy to get wrapped up in our children's needs and forget to stay healthy ourselves.  Being excited about our own lives is positive role modeling for our kids!

Take it easy on yourself and realize that what works at one home may backfire in another.  Our kids are all different!  I am always open to trying something different; but will not continue to do things that are ineffective or damaging.  I have gone against recommendations at times, and never been sorry. The professionals are not God, and are not all-knowing or all-seeing.  :)on't put them on a pedestal; follow your gut as a parent.

My daughter has done the best when I am strict with her and yet loving and empathetic.  Mental illness is not a free pass to be rude, abusive or to engage in criminal behavior.  Our kids need somebody who can set limits and not be a pushover.  When my daughter loses control of herself, I recognize that this is something she isn't choosing and I try to support her in regaining control and staying safe.  I find that she does well with positive situations and people.  I purposely have her cultivate interests, using leverage if I need to.  Without joy and a feeling of worth, our kids will never succeed.  I find that living a worthy life is the best way to feel self-worth.  They must learn to make esteemable choices before they will feel esteem.  

I have found that common sense and practicality are the best parenting tools.  Throw in some of the validation techniques and a pinch of learning to tolerate stress and you are THERE!  Learning to communicate in a way that our kids will "hear" is pretty huge.  I don't care for SET, unless it is genuine and authentic, but I think of "speaking to the feelings."  When our kids are dyregulated, they need us to speak to the feelings and help them get back in control.  At a minimum, I try not to make the situation WORSE or do harm by reacting in anger.   It is very tiring to stay calm all the time - they tell us not to stuff our feelings, but also not to react in anger!  HA!  It is a difficult situation and we are all doing this imperfectly.  

I hope something is useful.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[scudrunner]

theplotthickens:

Yes, in fact your entire post was useful. 

Up to now, pretty much everything you said is what I have been doing.  I do enforce the rules because I absolutely agree that after years of them pushing, if you let a single thing slide with a borderline, then you've sent that message.  After tens of thousands of dollars on therapy, as with you I'm not sure we're any better off, but that one point was made clear to me and I have found it to be true.  I guess that means that I just need to continue staying the course.  At times I know I must seem like a drill sergeant, but as my wife and I keep explaining to her, she has created this environment, and only she can change it.

I also got a laugh out of your comment about reacting out of anger.  Yes I agree that those fight or flight chemicals our body produces were meant by design to me metabolized quickly, and I believe that unburned, they're toxic.  I guess that means you smile, say "no," and then go outside and beat a karate bag with a baseball bat. 

BTW I love your avatar.  Old school cartoons are the best.  I'd have used Scooby if they'd had it as an option. 

[HealingSpirit]

Dear Scudrunner (aka. Scooby),

I just wanted to say hello and to thank you for posting this subject that is such a struggle for us all!  I don't have time to respond tonight, but I wanted to let you know my DD is 17 and I understand much of what you're going through, though your DD sounds a lot more like Jellibeans' DD.

Plotthickens gave you great advice to learn as much as you can, but to trust your own instincts.  We have certainly found that some of the so-called mental health experts we've seen were very sick individuals themselves.  It's a frustrating world out there!

I'll post more later.  I just wanted to say hello and I think you're doing a great job with a very difficult BPD teen at a difficult age!

[scudrunner]

Hi HealingSpirit,

Thanks so much for stopping in to say hello.  It really has been interesting to hear of the challenges of others with their teen daughters.  I have even had some very enlightening PMs and it really is like someone else is telling your story when they share theirs.

I'm finding a little time each day to get through the book that jellibeans recommended, and it too has been an eye opener in some regards.  In fact I just finished a part earlier that essentially said "punishment doesn't work."  Well I guess that answers my question in this thread. 

I'm beginning to see what you mean by the "experts."  What's really sad is I'm beginning to see that two years and tens of thousands of dollars were flushed on treatment modalities that are ineffective for BPD at best.  In some regards it reminds me of many college professors.  I have a family member who while in college to earn a degree as a special education teacher was being taught by professors and a department head who had never spent a day teaching in a public school classroom, much less taught in a classroom with special needs children.  Unlike an academic view, the people here have lived it, and are the only ones I have talked to that truly know the challenges.

Blessings to your family and daughter.  Thanks for the kind words, and I look forward to hearing what you have to share soon.   

[pessim-optimist]

Hello again, scudrunner,

I think that the reason why you cannot find a book on disciplining BPD teenagers is because today's use of the word is misunderstood to mean something punitive: as in "how to punish" your teenager. And because a system of punishments doesn't work well with pwBPD, a book on that topic is unlikely to be in existence.

However, I very much agree with theplotthickens that a sound structure of confident guidance is what's necessary, coupled with loving attitude.

Many people who start learning about BPD misunderstand validation and empathy as advice to give in to their pwBPD and giving up any hopes of rules and structure. Oftentimes the exact opposite is needed: by the time the child/adult child regularly acts out of control, sound structure and house-rules are long out the window together with sanity for the whole family.

By then, emotional connection and closeness in the relationship has often been replaced by continuous negative exchanges and struggles.

What is needed is BOTH:

1. The calm confidence and authority that brings in the structure and peace out of chaos. (After all - we are the healthy party, we are the adult in the situation, we need to take charge in a responsible, wise way.)

2. Now that the emotional connection has been harmed, or even severed, we need to work extra hard to renew that loving connection.

BPD has it's quirks (different communication skills work to make them feel safe, and heard and to really connect)

Yet a way, it's like with toddlers - those parents that provide very clear, safe structure calmly and lovingly, are more likely to have happy, well adjusted kids than parents who give in to the toddlers' tantrums, let things get out of hand and then react in anger toward the misbehaving toddler.

I want to say - I am not pointing accusing fingers at you guys - in spite of the fact that I've been skillful with toddlers, I haven't applied the same principles to my SD. And to my shame, I have been the second kind of "parent" with my adult SD - and with disastrous results!  

How did I get there?

1. I did not have appropriate boundaries, I was afraid of making her upset, I did not understand that even though she is an adult and I cannot treat her as a child, I can still assert my authority where appropriate.

2. At the same time, I did not like her, because she became a bully, I did not want to be around her, because it was chaotic and downright stressful.

Now we've turned the tide - working ever harder on the appropriate structure and boundaries, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME working on that loving connection.

Now, that I don't let her run my life, and she doesn't act out all the time, I like her much more!

That being said, - I really feel for all of you parents with teenagers - those are the hardest years all around. Hugs to all of you.  

Just cross-posted w/ you scudrunner and see that "punishment doesn't work" that's in my post as well.

All the best to you!

[scudrunner]

I think that the reason why you cannot find a book on disciplining BPD teenagers is because today's use of the word is misunderstood to mean something punitive: as in "how to punish" your teenager. And because a system of punishments doesn't work well with pwBPD, a book on that topic is unlikely to be in existence.

Thank you again for your input.  This is certainly a learning curve, and as referenced earlier, I'm a little frustrated that the experts haven't explained this over the years.

That said, it's been posited that punishment doesn't work. 

It has also been stated, and I think all of us as parents agree that we must set boundaries, and enforce them.  Additionally I think we can agree with the experts when they say you must be consistent.  Any sign of inconsistency will show a pwBPD that there is a chance, and they just have to keep pushing as "maybe this time will be the chance to get away with it."

So with that said, how can you enforce a boundary with no punishment?

If you were to tell your daughter that she cannot use the phone after 10 o'clock, or until the dishes are done, and then you come into to find her on the phone what do you do?  You obviously can't just ignore it.

Additionally the experts go on to say that any punitive action must take place immediately adjacent to the event for which the child is being punished.  So again, let's say that you have now had issues with your child stealing things.  You have made it clear that this is wrong, and will not be tolerated.  You go shopping today, and three days from now you find stolen merchandise in her bedroom.  How do you handle this?

Thanks again everyone.

[pessim-optimist]

i... .agree with the experts when they say you must be consistent.

Yes - super consistent! 

So with that said, how can you enforce a boundary with no punishment?

Well, the pwBPD may perceive it as a punishment anyway, but that's another topic.

It should not be presented as a punishment. It should come off as positively as possible, giving them a "way out", so to speak - to improve their behavior - by choosing to do what we want them to.

If you were to tell your daughter that she cannot use the phone after 10 o'clock, or until the dishes are done, and then you come into to find her on the phone what do you do?  You obviously can't just ignore it.

Correct. It depends on how your dd acts.

If she is fairly cooperative and will hand the phone over when you ask, I'd take the phone right there and say something like this: "Honey, you haven't earned your phone privilege yet, tonight. You can have the phone as soon as you are done with the dishes". If she does that, good. Afterward, I'd tell her - "I know it's really temping to get on the phone, and I want to be able to trust you. How about you do the dishes right after dinner, and then we don't have to worry about it?" If she says no, she want's to relax, I'd say, "ok, in that case for the rest of the week, I will ask you to leave the phone with me after you come home and you will get it back when the dishes are done. I'll let you keep the phone starting next week again."

Now, if she's defiant and will not hand over the phone, you need to find another privilege for her to loose until she hands the phone over: "Ok, honey, I can either get your phone now, or keep your car tomorrow - that's up to you."

Additionally the experts go on to say that any punitive action must take place immediately adjacent to the event for which the child is being punished.  So again, let's say that you have now had issues with your child stealing things.  You have made it clear that this is wrong, and will not be tolerated.  You go shopping today, and three days from now you find stolen merchandise in her bedroom.  How do you handle this?

That's not an easy one. And I am sure there are more than one way to go about it... .

Let's see what others might have to say... .

[scudrunner]

Well I have to admit I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this one.  I would have taken that to be more of a parental enabling behavior.  Fortunately if caught in a situation like that, my daughter would never refuse to give me the phone.  I don't have those kinds of issues because she simply knows better.  The impulsive rule breaking when no one is standing over her is another thing.

If I'm understanding this correctly, it just seems like there would be no downside to breaking the rules.  Although a pwBPD, they're still teenagers, and from a teen's point of view I see them understanding, "If I manage to not get caught, I get away with it, and if I do get caught, then I'll just get told to stop." 

I'm certainly open to being wrong, these are just the thoughts I'm processing. 

[theplotthickens]

You've got it!  Punishments don't work, and there is an excuse given for everything your child will ever do.  If you let things go, you are "not providing structure and boundaries."  If you enforce rules, you are told, "punishments don't work and you need to just catch your child being good."  

Have you figure it out yet?  You can't win!  :D  :D

The experts have been telling parents to do bizarre things since the Victorian times.  Let common sense guide you as you learn the theories from the "scientific" experts.  Psychology is not a hard science, it is more like a religion.  Kinda like witch doctoring, actually.  Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.  

I have tried so many approaches, and my child does MUCH better with strict boundaries with empathy.  Our kids need consequences AND positive reinforcements.  :)oesn't your intuition already tell you that?   Psycho analyzing every parenting decision you make will lead to an analysis paralysis and that is an ineffective place to be.

Think of yourself as your child's guardian; not her friend or therapist.  She has friends, and you can hire therapists.  NOBODY can take your place as parent-guardian.  It is a very humbling and special role.

I really find a lot of agreement with what Pessimest-Optimist said.  Good advice!

[HealingSpirit]

Hi Scudrunner,

I'm finding a little time each day to get through the book that jellibeans recommended, and it too has been an eye opener in some regards.  In fact I just finished a part earlier that essentially said "punishment doesn't work."  Well I guess that answers my question in this thread.   

Has punishment ever worked for your DD?  Until this year (DD is 17), punitive measures seldom worked with mine.  She has been grounded or had things taken away after doing things she knew were wrong.  When she knows she screwed up big time, she used to take her lumps.  I read a book about positive parenting a long time ago.  I have always tried to make DD earn privileges, rather than take stuff away.  Unfortunately, I haven't found punishment OR earning privileges to be very helpful for 2 reasons.  :)D17 sees right through the "earning" privileges by doing what I ask as being punished for not getting what she wants immediately.  The other reason is my DH has inadvertently undermined every "privilege" chart or incentive program I came up with.  If I told her we'll turn the wifi on after you do the dishes, she will pull DH aside and ask him to turn it on... .without finishing the dishes.   DH has Aspergers, so his skills aren't the best.

So, you HAVE to be consistent and you and your wife HAVE to back each other up 100%.

I'm beginning to see what you mean by the "experts."  What's really sad is I'm beginning to see that two years and tens of thousands of dollars were flushed on treatment modalities that are ineffective for BPD at best. 

This is our experience as well.  The T we have now is the best one so far because he knows his stuff and he gave DD a DBT workbook.  But, he's overscheduled and way too busy to be effective anymore.  I was extremely disappointed with the pediatric mental hospital our DD was in too.  I was looking forward to getting different opinions from their staff doctors who do nothing else except work with troubled teens all day.  I thought they would have set her up in some kind of "after care" support program.  But, the doctor there did not call me even once and he did not return my calls.  He discharged DD on the 3rd morning without ever speaking to us OR the T she has been working with.  I mentioned to the case manager that I'd like to talk to a doctor before DD was discharged.  She said, "You mean you haven't talked to him yet?"  Nope.  

An hour later, the case manager called me to say the doctor had "rescinded the discharge order."  HUH?  We think the doctor realized he screwed up, and rather than just call us, he tried to cover his behind.  :)H went and got our DD that same evening "against medical advice" which was so stupid because they had called me with her discharge in the morning.

I wish you peach and good luck keeping your very challenging DD safe.







 

[theplotthickens]

On the stealing... .this is an ongoing issue!  I am watching to hear what others say.  Some things I have tried:

1) New items need to have a receipt

2) Items with no receipt will be donated to charity.

3) Items with appear out of nowhere will be donated to charity

4) Suspicious behavior will result in loss of shopping privileges and/or needing to be chaperoned during shopping trips.

These were helping some, but my dd became so suicidal, threatening and violent that stealing sort of became a Plan C.  My dd has stabilized a lot, so I think I will bring these back!  The problem is that she is a hoarder, and her room is so overwhelming that I wouldn't even know what was new at this point. Her hoarding is also a Plan C.  She gets so triggered by attempting to remove items that it just isn't worth the safety risk most of the time.  I wonder if anyone else's BPDers hoard as well as steal compulsively?

I have pretty much had to stick with chaperoning shopping trips because she has sticky fingers.  When I don't have to worry about her shoplifting, she can be at the stores independently.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[scudrunner]

Has punishment ever worked for your DD?

Actually yes it has, and in fact that's how I put an end to the cutting about a year and half ago, but when you love your child you hate to constantly be bringing down the gavel.  Sure, I'll continue to do it if necessary because our job is to prepare our children for life as an adult, and to keep forcing them to grow and learn responsibility. 

The truth is that I came here hoping to find that I was just doing something wrong, that it was my fault, and that by changing modalities I could make life better for my daughter as well as the family.  What I found though is that I really don't have any reason to complain.  After speaking with many of you by PM and hearing different stories, what I realized is that most of you have it so much worse than I do, and my prayers go out to everyone of you.

Sure this recent incident where she decided to steal money from my wife and sneak out of the house in the middle of the night hit us hard, because you realize what could have happened, and it's made worse by the fact that we knew she was out there with less than stellar decision making abilities.  That said though, plenty of kids sneak out, nothing did happen, and with a daddy designed infrared fencing system surrounding her bed and room that would make MacGyver proud, we don't have to worry about it again.

My daughter makes poor choices, she's impulsive, and if no one is around she might try to jump on the phone to call a guy when she's not supposed to time and time again, and her reasoning would give Dr. Seuss a headache.  I don't deal with the rage issues though simply because she knows that disrespect will not be tolerated.  As in the telephone example I asked about above, she would never dare refuse to hand me the phone.  (I guess I still have my bluff in.)  In fact now that she knows the score on shoplifting, I'm not sure she would try that again, but I know better than to bet against it. 

I think a whole lot of it comes down to what theplotthickens said in her posts.  Parents have been dealing with various psychoses since long before we had a name for them.  We've just got to be parents, and do what we know how to do.  If we had a toddler, we would lock the doors.  If our kid is a pwBPD, we put double-sided deadbolts on the doors.  Other than that I guess we just set boundaries, lovingly enforce them, love our kids and continue trying to teach that actions have consequences.

[pessim-optimist]

scuddrunner:

I am glad to hear that your dd is not defiant to the point of refusing to hand over her phone. That in itself is a big asset in your favor!

There are two goals at play here (the first one a prerequisite, the second one essential):

1. We are trying to set up the rules, so they will respect them. (break rules-follows consequence).

2. We are trying to teach them appropriate self-management and self-control and a host of other skills that they need to internalize - they will need them as adults. This one is very important. If they only obey strict rules until they are 18, they become out of control right after.

So, with that in mind, we set up the rules and consequences, giving them a little bit of space at a time to build/learn their skills, and yes - an opportunity to shine or fail:

If I'm understanding this correctly, it just seems like there would be no downside to breaking the rules.

There definitely needs to be a consequence - every time. Some of them come on gradually, giving them chance to improve/straighten out before the 'big guns' come in. Also, it is the best to separate the issues to not end up in a power-struggle from the get-go.

In your example, dd would have to hand over the phone after being caught. The "consequence" in this case would be her having to do the dishes right after dinner, or having to hand the phone over until she does the dishes for the rest of the week (somewhat humiliating for a teenager).

The next step would be to let her have the phone next week with a talk explaining that she is almost a grown up, so you are giving her a chance to prove that she can be responsible with it and NOT break the rule - this is the skills building part. If you caught her again, breaking the rule, then, the consequence would be handing the phone to you right at 10pm, and not getting it back until after the dishes are done indefinitely (until you feel like there might be time for her to try to building her skills in this area again).

From a teen's point of view I see them understanding, "If I manage to not get caught, I get away with it, and if I do get caught, then I'll just get told to stop."

Does it make more sense now that - yes, the first time around - the first night, it might look like she pretty much got away with it, the second day and for the rest of the week there would be no chance of breaking the rule; and the next week, yes, it would look like it again, however, upon being caught, the chance to break the rule would be lost indefinitely.

theplotthickens:

I like your way of handling the stealing issue! And I am also curious what others might say.

I think I would approach it with a talk and a consequence:

1. The talk: explaining that if she steals, the business looses money they would otherwise have (if everyone stole, pretty soon, the business would go bankrupt). So, again: if she steals, the business has no merchandise, no money for it. I am going to impose the same consequence on her - I will confiscate the stolen merchandise, AND take the equivalent of money away.

2. Consequence: stolen merchandise found (cost approx. 80 dollars) - merchandise confiscated AND she needs to hand over 80 dollars. (if she doesn't have it, it will be docked from her allowance). If that's unreasonable, she will "earn" the money from me by doing chores, and "repay" until it's paid off.

[lbjnltx]

After all is said and done... .  after all the "special skills" I learned to parent a child w/emerging BPD... .  there really are none outside of the scope of good parenting.  The skills need to be used more intensely and consistently than most children need... .  yet they are the same skills.  Keeping the big picture in mind while managing each crisis is difficult for even the best of people/parents.  Love and logic can be difficult to hold in the forefront of our minds when our children are so often in crisis.  Yet we must for their benefit in the long run.

Having a road map to follow can help keep us focused when we are confused, afraid or feeling like giving up. 

Take advantage of any resource that helps.

Here is a book review that members have weighed in on regarding Parenting

Parenting Teens with Love and Logic - Foster Cline MD

[livednlearned]

Parenting Teens with Love and Logic - Foster Cline MD

I learned so much from this book and highly recommend it. Like lbjnltx said, it is hard to hold love and logic in the forefront of our mind all the time but I do think it's like any practice, and that over time it gets to be a habit. Initially when I changed things up after reading this book, S13 really tested the boundaries, but I've been consistent more than not, and honestly the love/logic has been a big relief. I'm a single parent and it's been exhausting to be both the nurturing parent and the disciplinarian, and this book helped me figure out a way to balance both without becoming worn down.

I especially like the suggestion to negotiate consequences ahead of time. Waiting until S13 was in a calm, attentive mood to discuss something that happens over and over, that keeps creating stress for both of us. And then trying to figure out something that is a logical consequence, similar to what would happen in life, like pessim-optimist suggested.

Then, when (inevitably), that thing happens, we refer to the logical rule that we agreed to follow.

It doesn't stop the actions 100% of the time because that's not possible. And it doesn't reduce the rage/drama, because S13 doesn't like boundaries when he doesn't like them. But there is definitely less intensity. Sometimes it feels like the reactions are more for the theater effect, if that makes sense. Like he's supposed to be upset. The outbursts don't seem to last as long. I think he realizes that he's reacting to his own rules, and that's a bit silly  so he returns to baseline faster.

[madmom]

The love and logic book is great.  It has a very common sense approach.   Good luck, you are dealing with a tough age.  I lived through it, but I still very vividly remember how hard it is.  Do something nice for yourself.