update on mentally ill ex, court order...

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

So long story short, our parent coordinator told me my ex went off his medicine and I should do an emergency order for supervised visits until he gets back on.  I did.  Got a temporary order for supervised, but in 2 weeks we go back.  His thereapists both wrote letters saying he's always been compliant with his medication and he's fine to watch the kids.  My L says it'll be hard to continue supervised with those doctor notes and my ex hasn't really done anything bad.  He does imagine stuff and cancels the kids' docs appointments, etc., but even our pc thinks that if he's on medicine he probably won't do anything bad.  Of course, I get nervous, but.

So now I have to drop the complaint or try to get a consent order with stuff in it.  The PC is deferring to the docs (who were the ones who supposedly told her he went off the meds.  Turns out he just was put on a lower dose.)

I already have in our original divorce that he has to continue in therapy.  In a new order, I want to say his docs have to notify us immediately if he stops complying.  OUr PC's time is up because we only had her retained for a year.  ... .my big question is whether to ask for a new PC.  I can get a new parent coordinator, but it seems to me that this will just suck a lot of money and it doesn't change everything anyway.  I got what I needed with the old one - some info and some recommendations.  I can put the money toward the kids.  The purpose of the pc would be 1) May help us with decisions if we argue 2) May be just another person who sees my ex's behavior for what it is, in case I ever need to go to court, and 3) can talk to the shrinks if needed.  Downside is, having this person allows me and my ex to engage more, and even may make things more tense.  Old PC says I need to set better boundaries.  If I see my own shrink, I can probably deal with him better.  Maybe I just have to deal with ex on my own.

So I am going back and forth over what to try to get out of this situation, or largely let it drop.  I don't want to do a psych eval or custody eval at this point because I think (and even our pc thinks) it won't change custody that much.  It may keep the kids away from ex longer, but that may only strain the relationship more, not make anything better really. 

Seems like most people think PC's are a waste of money these days.  I dunno.  Retainers here are at least 1500-3500 to start, and that can go quickly.  Just wondering if I should ask for a new pc.

[momtara]

So long story short, our parent coordinator told me my ex went off his medicine and I should do an emergency order for supervised visits until he gets back on.  I did.  Got a temporary order for supervised, but in 2 weeks we go back.  His thereapists both wrote letters saying he's always been compliant with his medication and he's fine to watch the kids.  My L says it'll be hard to continue supervised with those doctor notes and my ex hasn't really done anything bad.  He does imagine stuff and cancels the kids' docs appointments, etc., but even our pc thinks that if he's on medicine he probably won't do anything bad.  Of course, I get nervous, but.

So now I have to drop the complaint or try to get a consent order with stuff in it.  The PC is deferring to the docs (who were the ones who supposedly told her he went off the meds.  Turns out he just was put on a lower dose.)

I already have in our original divorce that he has to continue in therapy.  In a new order, I want to say his docs have to notify us immediately if he stops complying.  OUr PC's time is up because we only had her retained for a year.  ... .my big question is whether to ask for a new PC.  I can get a new parent coordinator, but it seems to me that this will just suck a lot of money and it doesn't change everything anyway.  I got what I needed with the old one - some info and some recommendations.  I can put the money toward the kids.  The purpose of the pc would be 1) May help us with decisions if we argue 2) May be just another person who sees my ex's behavior for what it is, in case I ever need to go to court, and 3) can talk to the shrinks if needed.  Downside is, having this person allows me and my ex to engage more, and even may make things more tense.  Old PC says I need to set better boundaries.  If I see my own shrink, I can probably deal with him better.  Maybe I just have to deal with ex on my own.

So I am going back and forth over what to try to get out of this situation, or largely let it drop.  I don't want to do a psych eval or custody eval at this point because I think (and even our pc thinks) it won't change custody that much.  It may keep the kids away from ex longer, but that may only strain the relationship more, not make anything better really. 

Seems like most people think PC's are a waste of money these days.  I dunno.  Retainers here are at least 1500-3500 to start, and that can go quickly.  Just wondering if I should ask for a new pc.

[ForeverDad]

In a new order, I want to say his docs have to notify us immediately if he stops complying.

How about "or when his meds are changed"?  Or "changed significantly"?  Though I don't know how "significantly" would be interpreted.  Wouldn't you like to be informed?

It sounds like the professionals view him as low risk since he doesn't have a history of child abuse, neglect or endangerment.  As in, can't do anything unless it happens.  Yes, frustrating and, for you, even scary.

[momtara]

Yup.  Yeah, that's a helpful point about the medication changing.  I think they'll object to that, but whatever.  Worth a shot.

Do you think a PC is worth it? 

[david]

I had a pc for a year. It kind of helped but wasn't the answer I originally thought it would be. It seemed to me it was just a mini court hearing.

When the court ordered time ended ex wanted it continued. Ex used the pc more than I did and I think it turned into a way to engage for her. Our state changed the rules and disallowed pc's altogether.

Over that time I learned to minimize communication with ex. Email only and usually 3 to 5 sentences.

Also our two boys were getting older and I stayed focused on helping them express themselves. Our oldest is 15 and pretty much has figured his mom out. She frustrates him at times but he basically accepted the fact she isn't going to change. Our 11 year old is following in his brothers footsteps to certain degree. He is very different than his older brother so he is finding his own methods of dealing with his mom.

The medication issue is tricky because of HIPA rules. If he stops taking his meds against docs orders that may be allowed in the best interest of the children. If the doc stops writing the script then it is a private matter between the doc and him and you probably have no legal right to know.

[ForeverDad]

Hmm, perhaps you can view the time that you did have a PC as an immensely helpful buffer during your transition out of the marriage.  Maybe it's time for the training wheels to come off, for you to stand on your own two feet and get more comfortable using the aspects of your parenting that you do have under your control.

[momtara]

Thanks to both of you - both well-put.  I guess I am a little nervous dealing with a mentally ill person alone.  I do have contact info for his doctors and can contact them if there's ever a need, but a go-between would be a better person to do so. 

[david]

Boundaries.

[momtara]

Yep.  You guys are smart.

[livednlearned]

If you have a therapist, you won't be dealing with this alone. Mine taught me everything I know about BPD, NPD, bipolar, alcoholism.

And then taught me how to have boundaries.

[momtara]

So a new update.

We've put off court twice (as Livedandlearned once predicted) and exH was able to get letters from both of his doctors saying he has always complied with his medication and that he's fit to see the children unsupervised.

This goes against what our parent coordinator said they told her.  She said they told her that he went off his meds and they were concerned.  So either she's lying, or his doctors are.

So I've been trying to work out a consent agreement of some kind so we don't have to go back to court and spend more $$$$.  Dropping the whole thing may look bad later.  I"m trying to get a consent order at least stating he will continue in therapy.

Tonight he tells me that he hasn't been on his medication or seen his doctors in eight months and they are willing to lie for him if it comes down to it.  He laughed as he told me this.  So really, I may have no case, even though deep down it would be much better for all if he stays on his medicine and sees his doctors.

I don't know what's true now. 

He hasn't actually hurt the kids, and only has them every two weeks for an overnight, but it still makes me nervous.  Off his medication, he's so hard to deal with.

Still have to consider a custody evaluation or independent psych eval - but I don't know if the pain of dealing with that for months, and the $6,000+ that it costs around here to get a good one, will change the situation.  His visitation would have to continue to be supervised during that time, which may just make him angrier.

Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts.  My lawyer says to get a new parent coordinator, but defer starting to see her for a few months, to see if things improve.  This person will ultimately cost an arm and a leg too.

The only value is that she or he will be monitoring the situation a little bit.  But I don't think he or she will have much power otherwise. 

I could drop the whole thing, but I feel like then I'm just setting myself up for more court down the road.

I understand the advice about not getting a PC, just setting better boundaries.  I guess I have to do that.  It sure is frustrating that his doctors are willing to lie, if he was telling the truth.

[david]

A small hidden recording device would be the best thing when talking to him. If you get some of those gems recorded the judge would find it very interesting. Recording may not be legal in your state but in family court and the best interest of the children a judge might want to hear what ex has to say. Also goes to show that co parenting is not possible.

[momtara]

I had that thought and it's a good one.  However, he and I are in two different states.  I read that interstate phone convo taping is against federal law.  If he was in the same state I was, it would be fine. 

[david]

Put it on speaker phone and let him know you are recording.

I live in Pa. and it is illegal to record any conversation without a court order. My ex has accused me so many times of abuse I didn't know what to do. I decided to record myself knmowing full well that she would also be in the recording. I figure the judge would be able to disregard whatever it is she is saying and just listen to me saying nothing abusive. My atty said that was a valid arguement in court.

Perhaps if you tell him you are recording so you don't forget what you were both discussing and you can listen to it later so you can remember. If he agrees then just remind him each time. Eventually he will slip up. You can put all the recordings on your computers hard drive.

Double check with your atty or try to switch to email communication only. If he calls and leaves a message or calls and you talk to him you can record it and then send him an email with everything he said and your reply. That may be a way around the legality issue especially if he then acknowledges in an email reply. I do that when ex leaves a voicemail.

[ForeverDad]

Me?  I wouldn't wait, I'd get a voice recorder today and start recording yesterday.  You just missed a golden piece of documentation.  Technically there may be issues with the state or federal laws but in all the years I've been here - eight so far - I've only heard of a few times when the court told a member to stop recording or threatened judicial action.  And no one went to jail or got fined, as I recall.  There are literally so many ways for a person to be recorded these days that you probably can have a variety of ways - voice mail, cell phone, voice recorders, MP3 player/recorders, pencams (sold in stores & online), etc.  By the way, voice mail has no expectation of privacy.

The speakerphone idea is great.  If you can have another person listening, then that person can testify to what was heard.  (And then if he contests it your response would be, "Your honor, I have the recording here, listen and you can decide which account is true... ."

My ex has known for years I might record.  She's so used to the concept, sometimes when she's angry with me she exclaims, "Go ahead and record, you #$%^&... ."

[momtara]

I didn't necessarily miss the opportunity.

I'm not saying if I did or didn't... .just saying I read it's illegal for interstate communication.    So if I *did* have it on tape, not sure I can use it.  Maybe I should ask my atty.

[livednlearned]

I didn't necessarily miss the opportunity.

I'm not saying if I did or didn't... .just saying I read it's illegal for interstate communication.    So if I *did* have it on tape, not sure I can use it.  Maybe I should ask my atty.

Sometimes you can also just let the judge know that you have it. It might not entered as "evidence," per se, but it tells the judge that you can back up your claim if you need to.

That's what I did. I have a video recording of my ex naked on the floor of our bedroom, trying to pull the curtains over him (thinking it's the bedspread), moaning and babbling nonsense. He was half way through a bottle of alcohol and I recorded it. My lawyer used it when talking to the other lawyer (when N/BPDx had one). She also brought it up in court before the judge, but didn't enter it as an exhibit.

[momtara]

That is great... .although not possibly illegal, like taping an interstate call... .would have to consider the implications of showing my hand... .if he knows I'm taping, may be careful about worse stuff that I'll need eventually... .

[ForeverDad]

So a new update.

We've put off court twice (as Livedandlearned once predicted) and exH was able to get letters from both of his doctors saying he has always complied with his medication and that he's fit to see the children unsupervised.

Be prepared to counter his letters with his taunts.  In my case, my phone calls with ex were allowed but I had to state the full dates the recordings were made and that I had not altered or edited them.

His admissions may or may not ever get presented in court, hard to say at this point but it may end up being necessary.  That's he's flaunting it puts an unsavory twist to your story.  My impression is they're more commonly used with the professionals the court uses, such as evaluators, CPS, etc.  In my virtually never-ending case, it was only in the last case that finally we played her ranges and entitled manipulations.  At least a half dozen times in the resulting order the magistrate remarked disapprovingly about mother disparaging father around son.

[momtara]

Oh!  That's great.

In the end, I don't know what I'm supposed to ask for now, anyway.  His doctors say he's complying.  So what I really want is him to agree to stay in therapy 3x/month like he is now.  And a parent coordinator starting in November, but if we are able to cooperate before then, then we don't take one.  Frankly, I can't really afford one - just feel like this is an opportunity to ask for something that may help.  I'm kinda confused at this point.

I have almost all the parenting time as it is, so not much else to ask for.

I'm tempted to drop it all because court is going to be another $1100+ and what am I really going to get out of it?  I don't even know.  Can't really keep him under supervised visitation with the doctors' notes.  Our divorce decree said the expectation was for him to stay in therapy.

What I really wanted was for him to stay on his medicine.  I thought that when we did this, he'd get back on it.  Not have his doctors write notes to get him off the hook or whatever. I don't really know what the truth is anyway.

[david]

" I don't really know what the truth is anyway" and that is the real concern you seem to have. You have been told he needs to take his meds and you have been told he doesn't need to take his meds. You are not a doc but you have legitimate concerns based on the contradictory information you have received from various sources.

Is there some way the courts can send a letter to his doc asking if he is safe without the meds. That takes the blame off the courts if something goes wrong (and judges like that cover) and puts the pressure on the doc (malpractice insurance concerns, etc). Putting the doc in a uncomfortable legal situation keeps him on notice and on his toes. He may even get rid of his patient in the near future to protect himself so you need a plan for that if you continue with the courts. Having it all in writing by the courts protects the kids. It may even be a good idea to have a list of docs you trust handy just in case.

[momtara]

That's interesting.  Hmmm, I'll have to consider that.

What I don't want is for the court to demand that we get a $6,000 evaluation, just causing more discord that will trigger exH even more.

Could the courts actually consider that?  I like this creative thinking - thanks!

[david]

My ex left in 2007 so it has been a while. I was arrested and put in jail for two weeks in 2010 for false allegationms made by ex. I have learned that the best way to defuse my ex is to either find a way to agree with her and take things to their natural consequences which show ex doesn't know what she is talking about or finding a way to not disagree but protect myself and the kids in a way that any reasonable eprson would agree to.

I built a wall around myself after I got out of jail and ex could not get through. Trust me she has tried.

We recently finished a custody eval. In one of the joint meetings the evaluator asked ex about why S11 did over 90% of his homework when at his dads and the little that was done at his mom was full of errors. Ex replied that, "I already did 4th grade homework and I have no intention of doing it again." The evaluator then turned to me. Instead of saying "you see that is exactly what I am talking about" I said "I have no problem helping S11 with all of his homework, but I do not thing it fair that he is with me less time during the school year and he has to do all his homework when with me." I believe that I eliminated conflict and simply agreed with ex's decision about his homework. Then I gave gave a solution to the problem. That took me years to figure out and I am not always that good at it. I am getting better with practice. The funny part of all this is that without ex doing the things she has done I would never have grown in this manner as well.

When she does things I do usually get upset. That is short lived now and I then begin to find a solution to whatever I am trying to resolve.

[livednlearned]

You can use Google Scholar to search for case law to see what it takes for a court to order supervised visitation in your state. A lot of times, we spin wheels trying to second guess this or that, except this or that isn't what the court is thinking about. The judge is up there probably thinking through points of law and precedents and how to interpret the case before him or her based on other cases. What would you do if you were in that same position? Unless there is something before the judge that justifies supervised visitation, you're going to get a lot of tap dancing, is my guess.

The only thing left to take away from your ex is supervised visitation or parental rights -- and that last one is super tough to lose. So maybe combing through to see what other cases for unsupervised visitation look like.

It could be that the court just leads you two around by the nose and costs you a lot of money for nothing, mostly because there is no one else to act as authority in a really ambiguous situation. Like you said, your ex hasn't done anything yet. By court estimation, your ex isn't a felon, or a drug user, or a threat. He's medicated by doctors, he sees a therapist, what else can they do? I'm at the point now that I don't want to deal with the court unless I have a clear goal and a solid strategy. Otherwise, it's just giving court more power to be an authority over my life and offers me nothing in return to enforce that authority except a lot of expense.

Also, how would the doctors really know if your ex was taking his medication? Did they do a test or something? Maybe they asked him if he was taking his medication and he said yes.    Then they wrote a letter to that effect. Is the language vague and non-committal?

[momtara]

Well, sure, he's not taking his medicine and they don't know it.  The letter just says he's been in compliance.  Blah.

I am thinking of just asking for him to commit to seeing his therapists 3x/month like he does now.  And drop everything else.  At least that would be something.

I feel like dropping the whole thing could look bad down the road.  I also worry that I'll feel guilty if he gets a lot worse, and wish I had at least done something.  But... .what? 

... .going to court could be for nought, and something worse might happen instead of something better.  So I dunno.  My lawyer is tough but I can't trust her on everything.  Wish I could just say to her, "What should I do?"  She recommended I pick a parent coordinator.  I think it'd be worth it to have one to monitor the situation, and still help build a case.  But it also helped him keep engaging with me.  SO, I dunno. 

[momtara]

What ultimately happened:

I agreed to a consent order and stayed out of court.  Already beating myself up over this.  Just was worried cause anything can happen in court.  On the other hand, I was considering dropping it all.  At least this way I got something, if very little.

-It notes that BPD exH is in therapy 3x/month and says he has to follow all recommendations of his treating professionals.

-It says we have to choose a parenting coordinator later this year.  If I can't afford it, I can defer it.  I probably will.  I want to see if we can work stuff out on our own.

In exchange, we:

-Drop supervised visitation (which his doctors argued against in letters) and we fire the last parent coordinator (whose term was done anyway).

-Drop demand for ex to give monthly notifications of therapy.

Of course, I am beating myself up over the last one.  I keep thinking, this was a golden opportunity!  He is likely to unravel as I begin setting boundaries better.

I guess I thought if we wound up in court, that's $1K or more I don't have to use on the kids.  This got expensive fast.  But if something goes wrong, it gets expensive again, as I'll surely learn.

Oh well, you can't have everything, will try to stop second guessing.