considering relocation in custody battle with alienated kid

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

reposted from parenting BPD child board


I am un unusual predicament.

It looks s though alienated D11 could end up residing at her UBPDAD's.

I live 2 blocks away in tinytown.

between UBPDAD's and the school, and town.

We have to cross each other and all see each other numerous times a day Literally THAT small.

He is a public figure. I went email contact only x 3 years, now.

This has resulted in my alienation and ostrasization not only of most the village but D! as well.

My lease is up on my huge 5 bedeoom house and roomate moved out.

we will have deep snow and nobody moves after october.

Im considering moving to the nearest town where I could get a fresh start and my history will not hinderme.

closest place is 1.5 hours away.

D11 is making this choice with mama 2 blocks away.

I do not want to abandon D!.

but staying here feels like a dead prospect.

I am completely isolated, bitter, depressed, lonely. I see the big picture.

I am not getting most of my personal needs met by staying these last 3 years.

no jobs, NOTHING here.

I feel like I must move to save myself.

I know if I move I will have a support network and be much stronger for D11 and myself.

Staying here has escalated the push pull, we cannot get away from it.

I am painted black and constant smear campaign .

I hope to move, get stronger, build a happier life so when I AM with D!, we can have better time.

There are also more resources for D11 as she matures and this family story plays out.

I am consulting a new attorney soon.

Psychologist who saw d11 5 times, says "dont dare move, it WILL be abandoning her"

but I feel like I am almost fighting for my life here.

They are also blaming lots of this stuff on my PPD when she was a baby. most blamed on me, if they only knew .

how could this hurt her?

Im sure she expects me to stay 2 blocks away !

thanks

[nona]

reposted from parenting BPD child board


I am un unusual predicament.

It looks s though alienated D11 could end up residing at her UBPDAD's.

I live 2 blocks away in tinytown.

between UBPDAD's and the school, and town.

We have to cross each other and all see each other numerous times a day Literally THAT small.

He is a public figure. I went email contact only x 3 years, now.

This has resulted in my alienation and ostrasization not only of most the village but D! as well.

My lease is up on my huge 5 bedeoom house and roomate moved out.

we will have deep snow and nobody moves after october.

Im considering moving to the nearest town where I could get a fresh start and my history will not hinderme.

closest place is 1.5 hours away.

D11 is making this choice with mama 2 blocks away.

I do not want to abandon D!.

but staying here feels like a dead prospect.

I am completely isolated, bitter, depressed, lonely. I see the big picture.

I am not getting most of my personal needs met by staying these last 3 years.

no jobs, NOTHING here.

I feel like I must move to save myself.

I know if I move I will have a support network and be much stronger for D11 and myself.

Staying here has escalated the push pull, we cannot get away from it.

I am painted black and constant smear campaign .

I hope to move, get stronger, build a happier life so when I AM with D!, we can have better time.

There are also more resources for D11 as she matures and this family story plays out.

I am consulting a new attorney soon.

Psychologist who saw d11 5 times, says "dont dare move, it WILL be abandoning her"

but I feel like I am almost fighting for my life here.

They are also blaming lots of this stuff on my PPD when she was a baby. most blamed on me, if they only knew .

how could this hurt her?

Im sure she expects me to stay 2 blocks away !

thanks

[nona]

I am in a mindset of moving toward something good, rather than running away. maybe I can transfer this mindset into action while remaining in tiny town, but I wonder if I left her here, at least would it take BPD dad's pressure off her OR... .

the BPD pressure from UBPDX never eased up, d/t his brain/state.

maybe he will never let up on her, even if I moved away... .He COULD make it worse on her?

I DUNNO,

please discuss your wise experienced thoughts.

thanks

Nona

[ForeverDad]

What is happening with the report to children's services by that professional you consulted?  If it is still pending, would it be worth it to rent a small home for maybe 6 months to stay local and see what will result?  Are finances an issue, do you need to work to support yourself?

It's a fine line to walk... .little or no progress for a long time and if you don't move you may go further downhill emotionally... .if you do move, the alienation will be enabled more by the distance and no matter how much you tell your daughter you want her to come with you, his probably claim will be ramped up that you don't care about her, don't love her and now have 'abandoned' her. :'(

How much time does the court order schedule for your parenting?  How much time do you actually get with her now, is it less?

[nona]

Thanks all for being here

CPS letter was this :

I thought it important to respond to all at this time as I sort through the meetings and communications that I’ve been party to.

I wish to clarify that on Friday when I met with D and MOM, it was not for the purpose of providing safety or supervising her return from a Child Protection stand point. It was for the purpose of checking in with D on her state of anxiety around what she’d been exposed to and how that was impacting her feeling of safety with her Mom.

From what was explained from both parents to me, my concern for D was that she’d witnessed a situation that was contentious between her parents. From my previous meetings with D I thought that she may need reassurance that she and her Mom could return to the positive progress they had been making prior to having the emotional reactions reoccur.

The transition to Mom’s went well and fun plans were immediately being made for the day and weekend. Mom left D and I to talk and sort through what had happened. I gave D the reframe of Mom and Dad not having been able to talk for a few years and it appears that they still are not able to do so. I explained that both have different perceptions and she knows both sides and also has her own. This gave opportunity to sort her truth out amidst the parental conflicts. I supported her to know what is real and true for her and to know it is valid.

I can only recommend that D be supported to continue with personal counselling with a highly skilled counsellor and to protect her from situations that involve adult information with conflicting perceptions. As her parents’ I suggest that you look at whether it is healthy for D to be able to clearly articulate both parent’s sides and justifications. In trying to make sense of her own needs amidst the parental loyalties and conflict, she is experiencing a great deal of stress.  

Please know that this is written without prejudice of either parent. I wish to be of help however I can.


However she said on her official file she would recommend D go to Dad's .

UBPDX escalated to getting D actng out screaming to go to dads, he was firing emails everywhere, yet there are no papers filed to see a judge yet.

I told D yesterday, moving childrens custody is very important stuff and does not happen overnight.

UBPDX "threatening taking custody" had us all jumping.

I have decided to slow down and not jump.

except to anew lawyer.


we aer 50/50 weekly exchange custody.

I am holding boundaries and unconditional love and not very good at set or val. yet. but will stidy it !


I see her next week after d goes back to dad.

CANT WAIT !

I am stepping up my looking for a smaller place here, so no change and no abondonment risk to D.

But thank goodness I feel in my bones, im getting my strength back, i need more strength, and the things that feed my strength are not here. I will need to outsource my special needs for now.

I was going downhill. but not anymore.

I LEFT domestic violence 3 years ago, because I do not want to live that way. I will not.

I have not fully succeeded in that goal, as a woman or a mother.

I will up my internal mindset to NOT live in this.

after interviewing a few more attys.,  one suggested I go first, address all my concerns, and see what I can get with that.

UBPDX's parental conduct and ability to follow simple rofr is a failure I can demonstrate.

one suggestion was to get D evaluated ASAP, of course UBPDDOCTORDAD will oppose, as will D, and they will use it fully in the alienation campaign, "mama wants you labeled"

Anothet mother commented to me of the MOB MEntality she observes with UBPDX and his posse.

"everyone has to protect D from MOM"

crap, crap, crap

[nona]

I only get a few years of spousal and it is running out in a couple years i need to get going !

[livednlearned]

Is your question, "If I leave, will the alienation be complete?"

I don't know that there is an easy answer to that.

Alienation never got as bad in my situation as it has in yours. I ended up with full custody and S13 hasn't had any contact with his dad for six months, so my insight is limited.

But I do think that deep down when a weak(ened) parent starts to take care of himself or herself, it affects a deep script in the alienated child's heart. A lot of times, alienated kids align with whoever is perceived as the more powerful parent because that's safer. You taking care of yourself might not change your D's behavior immediately, and it might not reverse the alienation, but you feeling weak, anxious, desperate, and guilty is not going to win your daughter over either.

You've also mentioned that your D might be developing BPD traits. If you have an alienated BPD child, and you're weak, then this might not be as much of a choice as you think. I don't know how you can do the seriously difficult work of emotionally and psychologically reaching your D when you don't know how to take care of yourself.

I'm not advocating that you make a drastic choice either way -- this isn't a black or white situation, even if it feels that way. FD asked a lot of important questions, and new things always come up that make things better and worse, things we can never anticipate. But I do think it's an important new development that you're thinking about ways to take care of yourself. You are starting to think about rescuing yourself. That's important, and it matters.

[nona]

Hey lived and learned... .

Ill have to reread, and see what your experience was with alienation, what woorked, what didnt and how you got custody in your situation.

this once weakened woman is strong again, inside.

I was 41 years old and very stable when I met UBPDX.

I am reclaiming this aspect of myself, my understanding, my foundation, my consciousness.

guilt, desperate and anxiety do not get front row, or much time on my plate. I have really turnrd a corner, finally on remember who i am.

less moved by their drama, especially when I realized D is mirroring the BPD behaviors.

I take it all much less personally.

Please help me understand the paragraph starting "you've also mentioned"

Do you mean I am being driven out rather than chooseing or something else?

I also think I DO know how to take care of myself, and if Im not doing the work to connect to daughter, who is?

I do need support in my situation and am tricky hella unbellievably isolated, insideously not exaggerating.

I have a good t who gets me, closeby, finally.

a couple of them with different strengths.

The other parts of the community I could move to ACTUALLY has some resources... A T who gets BPD with a 6 mo. waiting list, but this is the long haul, for D. So Im on the list.

jobs, training, social scene 10,000 people instead of a couple hundred here

the chior D wants to join, lots of activities that will appeal to D as she matures.

There is seriously nothin here but nature and snow and water. verrry boring for teens,

[livednlearned]

Ill have to reread, and see what your experience was with alienation, what woorked, what didnt and how you got custody in your situation.

My situation is hard to replicate -- N/BPDx represented himself in court (he's an attorney), the full force of his disorder plays out in court, no filter. His illness is compounded by what appears to be bipolar (family history), plus alcoholism, plus a daily roller coaster of adderall and ambien. Then he gets on the computer and writes emails that get him in a lot of trouble. They also tend to show up in our court hearings, and don't do him one bit of good.

Also, S13 was very bonded to me during the marriage. N/BPDx is in no way a hands-on dad. He tried alienation tactics, and there were signs they were having an effect on S13. Not turning S13 against me, but really messing with his head.

this once weakened woman is strong again, inside.

I was 41 years old and very stable when I met UBPDX.

I am reclaiming this aspect of myself, my understanding, my foundation, my consciousness.

guilt, desperate and anxiety do not get front row, or much time on my plate. I have really turnrd a corner, finally on remember who i am.

less moved by their drama, especially when I realized D is mirroring the BPD behaviors.

I take it all much less personally.

You're doing great   This is all good.

Please help me understand the paragraph starting "you've also mentioned"

Do you mean I am being driven out rather than chooseing or something else?

I just meant that you wrote here a while ago that you were concerned your D was showing BPD traits. I think it was you? If so, then all the good work you're doing to take care of yourself is doubly important. It's so hard to parent a child when your ex is disordered, and if your child develops BPD traits, it is doubly hard. So you, me, anyone in this situation -- taking care of ourselves is essential. Otherwise how can we be the healthy person our kids need? We won't know what that means for them if we don't know what it means for us. Does that make sense? I don't think I wrote the original paragraph very well. By not having a choice, I meant that the choice between nona=isolated/alienated D and nona=healthy/alienated D is not really a choice.  

I also think I DO know how to take care of myself, and if Im not doing the work to connect to daughter, who is?

I do need support in my situation and am tricky hella unbellievably isolated, insideously not exaggerating.

I believe you. I'm Canadian, but living in the US. I've worked up north, and my heart goes out to you. You have to be a warrior to endure what you're going through.  :'(

The other parts of the community I could move to ACTUALLY has some resources... A T who gets BPD with a 6 mo. waiting list, but this is the long haul, for D. So Im on the list.

jobs, training, social scene 10,000 people instead of a couple hundred here

the chior D wants to join, lots of activities that will appeal to D as she matures.

There is seriously nothin here but nature and snow and water. verrry boring for teens,

Coparenting with a Toxic Ex has some similar stuff to Divorce Poison about how to help alienated kids figure out what they want. Things like asking her if she likes choir, likes this, likes that. Start asking now, before you move, so that when you move, and those things are there in the new town, she feels that they came from her, instead of you. If she feels that she has her own ideas about what she wants, your ex will have a harder time blaming her choices on you. If you tell D, "They have choir." And D decides she likes the new town because it has choir, then your ex will say, "Nona is forcing you to do this and that." It puts D in a bad place.

But if you ask D, "Have you ever wanted to sing? Be in a choir?" Let D figure out whether this applies or not. Then, when new town is mentioned, you mention "There is choir here." Let D know it's there, let her find her way there. Because if she chooses something, and knows she loves it, and her dad says, "Nona is making you" -- then inside D thinks, "But nona never did. I chose it. This is for me. Therefore dad is wrong about this. Maybe he is wrong about other things about nona."

Sorry, not very articulate today. 

[ForeverDad]

The wondering whether a child could be developing BPD is a topic that reminded me of Sanemom's recent thread about her DSD17, I've copied my observations here and some of it may apply to your daughter.  At least it is food for thought and aspects of it may apply.  It may take years to determine whether you're seeing BPD developing or just an indoctrinated child who has been pressured and overwhelmed and just has BPD fleas due to the close proximity and not knowing any other kind of life.

What she lacks is a solid foundation - something she should have developed from early childhood - of (1) knowing that reality and true/false doesn't change depending upon which family you are currently with, (2) making her own age-appropriate independent & objective observations and (3) trusting and sticking with her own independent & objective observations long term.

My ex's sister had a hard time sticking to her own observations, her opinions would change depending on who spoke with her.  Many years ago we would visit and she would tell us how bad we were.  By the end of the day visit she would be agreeing that uBPD mother and abuser uNPD father were problem.  Next visit she'd again be back to saying how bad we were.  For that reason I learn toward your DSD not likely to have BPD.  Granted, she may display some traits, primarily when in her mother's environment, but we all have traits of this, that and whatever since we're not robots off an assembly line.

Your family is an influence on her just as her mother is an influence on her.  She needs to determine for herself what is true and what is not, what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong, what is important and what is not, etc.  She has it with you, not with her mother.  Perspective and objectivity will be an uphill struggle for her, especially if she doesn't learn to set and enforce boundaries with her mother.  It may take some time, probably years to go through that process of recovery and discovery.  Let's hope she can do that over time.

Thus far your family's good influence is not enough to overcome her other parent's overwhelming influence.  Perhaps you can try to make slow progress, two steps forward and only one step back?  If only she would get into long term counseling with an experienced and perceptive professional... .