Boundaries book

[lever.]

I mentioned on a couple of threads yesterday that I was reading this book and that I would report back.

There have been several posts recently about the line between supporting and enabling and other boundary issues.

Well I think the book could be very helpful, particularly for anyone with a strong Christian faith or church affiliation and also to anyone who had a religious upbringing.

In my own case I think the way I was brought up had made me feel guilt about setting boundaries as it should always be "God first-others second-self last" and saying NO to people could be seen as being selfish. I think this is a wider thing than just with DD. The book explains that this is in fact unhelpful as it stops others learning responsibility for themselves and it became clear that I have been rescuing more than I thought and I can change this.

One of the things I found difficult is that to enforce boundaries you have to be willing to accept that they will be kicked against-and someone with BPD is likely to kick very hard-possibly hurting themselves and others either physically or emotionally.

Also they may choose to end the relationship.

Another factor is that to hold a boundary you will need to implement consequences-and a person with BPD may get into a very big mess when you stop rescuing (even life threatening).

Also this can impact on other family members such as grandchildren. However by having very weak boundaries you may be perpetuating the difficulties.

I found it a very interesting read and my initial thought is that my boundaries have been too weak and I am going to work on this.

Also I had an idea of how a mother should be-all giving and willing to sacrifice her own comfort

I would be interested to share thoughts on this book.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[mama72]

What was the name of the book, lever?

[lever.]

It is called "Boundaries" by Henry Cloud and John Townsend

[pessim-optimist]

Here's the link with the book description (It's the best book on boundaries I have seen):

Boundaries

The hard work/struggles and risks/our fears involved in setting new, more appropriate boundaries is what often keeps us stuck and prevents the necessary changes, even if we know how/what needs to be done.

At least that's what kept me appeasing my step-daughter. I felt like it was easier to just go along with whatever and keep the peace. That was, until going along became unbearable. That's when I knew that things needed to change - for both my AND her sake.

I'd say that little by little is the easiest way to go. Unless, of course, the situation is so critical that a major change or two need to be done right away.

This is a great topic! I am also interested to hear other people's thoughts.

[HealingSpirit]

I mentioned on a couple of threads yesterday that I was reading this book and that I would report back.

There have been several posts recently about the line between supporting and enabling and other boundary issues.

I'm so glad you brought this up!  I just downloaded this book the other day and started reading it.  So far, I think the authors do a good job clarifying WHY we need to have boundaries and what that really looks like.  I'll let you know more after I've finished it.  I agree it would be particularly helpful for anyone with a Christian based background because it's so easy to confuse "Christian values" with having no boundaries.

I also agree that we need to weigh the limits we set with our BPD loved ones against a worse possible outcome than not setting the limit.  I also think it is very easy for us moms to have loose or nonexistent boundaries with our kids.  And our very culture praises "self-less" acts.  So it's easy to see why so many of us have trouble in this area.

I'll weigh in too, after I've finished reading it.   

[Daedalus]

  I am so happy you all are sharing your insight and feelings about this topic-   I wanted to chat tonight to ask for some advice and support related to my own boundaries/responses to MY 18 yr. old uBPD child- I have not heard from her in 2 weeks. I am missing her terribly  :'(  but I keep going over our situation in my head and there is no real way of figuring it out.  I want to find a flaw in the limits that I set- which are causing her not to come back home- but I do feel in my gut that my boundaries are definitely best right now for our family, and so does my therapist who is very familiar with BPD... .  But, tonight I just miss her something awful & it really helped to read that many of us are struggling with BPD boundaries... .  what seems like a healthy boundary to set can just feel like a potentially cruel act with a BPD kid, and so it seems we can choose to  be helplessly led around by our child, or to have moments of courage and self preservation that we deeply fear we will regret... .  AAARRRGGGHHHH! Thank you all for opening up about this topic and sharing the book title with us. It helps to know I am not alone with this concern and pain.

[theplotthickens]

I have been meaning to read that book for a while, but just haven't gotten to it yet.  I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on it!  If it weren't for the hope that I have in Christ, I would have been overwhelmed by the darkness of living with this illness, so I'd be very interested in the spiritual component.   

I have gotten pretty good about boundaries since reading "Family Guide to BPD: How to Stop Walking on Eggshells."  However, I actually sometimes get negative attitudes from other moms who believe that having no boundaries=being a good Christian mom.  My daughter will make me out to be an ogre by saying things like, "My mom won't even _____________!"  And then they will do it for her many times, rescuing her.  It is pretty ingrained in our DNA as moms to rescue---even with other people's kids when we don't know the full situation.

I have also found "Parenting with Love and Logic" really good for setting practical boundaries.  I would love to hear more about "Boundaries" and how it applies to parenting a child with mental illness (mine has bipolar and BPD, plus ADHD.)

Without the peace of God's presence and the hope that I have found in the Scriptures, I would have been in a mental hospital myself by now!  I am not exaggerating in the least when I say that.  It would be interesting to read a book on setting boundaries from a Christian perspective.  Thanks for posting this!

[lever.]

This book does have a strong Christian ethos-there are a lot of biblical references and it deals with some misunderstandings about what is involved in loving Christian behavior.

It is of particular relevance to someone with a strong faith or strong religious upbringing but I do think it would be of help to anyone.

I just have some fears about implementing some of the suggestions and what the consequences would be (eg confronting with honesty about unacceptable behavior- i think my DD would twist it all round and use projection or become very dis-regulated). It could easily lead to NC with grandchildren again.

Is that a price I need to be willing to pay?

[theplotthickens]

I just have some fears about implementing some of the suggestions and what the consequences would be (eg confronting with honesty about unacceptable behavior- i think my DD would twist it all round and use projection or become very dis-regulated). It could easily lead to NC with grandchildren again.

Is that a price I need to be willing to pay?

Can you give us an example of what the suggestions are?  I haven't read the book.  I am really curious now!

This book is assuming both parties are neuro-typical, correct?  Some "normal" interventions might seem cruel to a BPDer, since they struggle so much with self-hatred already.   

[qcarolr]

This book is assuming both parties are neuro-typical, correct?  Some "normal" interventions might seem cruel to a BPDer, since they struggle so much with self-hatred already.   

There is a statement on page 192 (section on boundary conflicts: boundaries and our children) that addresses this question:

"As parents, we need to take into consideration our children's developmental needs and abilites to avoid asking them to do something they can't do, or to avoid asking too little of them."

There are other places where he talks about young adults with delayed maturity along these same lines.The section of this book that provided me with the best guidance in relation to the troubled 'kids' in my life is Chap. 14, 'Resistance to Boundaries' on page 245. This clearly talks about what I need to have in place so that there is a greater chance of success in setting/changing boundaries with those that have strong resistance 'skills'.

There are 'outside resistance' and 'inside resistance' battles we have to engage in.

Outside resistance: Angry Reactions; Guilt Messages; Consequences and Countermoves; Physical Resistance; Pain of Others; Blamers; Real Needs; Forgiveness and Reconciliation.

Inside resistance: Human Need; Unresolved Grief and Loss (I underlined lots in this chapter for myself!); Internal Fears of Anger; Fear of the Unkown; Unforgiveness; External Focus; Guilt; Abandonmnt Fears: Taking a Stand in a Vacuum ("Boundaries are not built in a vacuum. They must be under girded by strong bonding to safe people, or they will fail."

"Running into resistance is a good sign that you are doing what you need to do."  My dh gets this so much better than I do and I did not see it for a very long time. I resisted hearing him, supporting him as a parent, and his tactic for self-preservation was to withdraw. This has improved as we both have learned to listen to each other -- well, mostly me listening to him with my full attention and the right meds. for my bipolar II!

I started this book a couple times over the past 5 years, and could not get far in it. There were too many challenges to things deeply hidden in me. It has taken seeking and finding the right support people for me to grow enough to be able to read this book and hear the many messages it has to offer. After searching for the above quotes today I think I need to read some parts of it again.

qcr

[pessim-optimist]

It is of particular relevance to someone with a strong faith or strong religious upbringing but I do think it would be of help to anyone.

Yes, I very much agree. The authors are both PhD clinical psychologists and their material is excellent.

I actually sometimes get negative attitudes from other moms who believe that having no boundaries=being a good Christian mom.

In that case, you definitely need to get the book - it will be a very liberating read!

This is one of the main myths that the book debunks. Hopefully the other moms will be open to hear it as well... .

This book is assuming both parties are neuro-typical, correct?  Some "normal" interventions might seem cruel to a BPDer, since they struggle so much with self-hatred already.  

There is a statement on page 192 (section on boundary conflicts: boundaries and our children) that addresses this question:

"As parents, we need to take into consideration our children's developmental needs and abilites to avoid asking them to do something they can't do, or to avoid asking too little of them."

There are other places where he talks about young adults with delayed maturity along these same lines.The section of this book that provided me with the best guidance in relation to the troubled 'kids' in my life is Chap. 14, 'Resistance to Boundaries' on page 245.

This is where the book is so good - it talks about human development and how that works in terms of boundaries. It teaches you to recognize and respect where your child is developmentally, and what the next step is for them to learn. So, even though they assume neuro-typical, their approach is not rigid, and I think it's possible for you to adjust your approach as a parent who knows their child best.

I just have some fears about implementing some of the suggestions and what the consequences would be (eg confronting with honesty about unacceptable behavior- i think my DD would twist it all round and use projection or become very dis-regulated). It could easily lead to NC with grandchildren again.

Is that a price I need to be willing to pay?

I also wonder what your fears are - they may be legitimate.

On the other hand it also says that parents of troubled teens tend to react with either boundaries that are too strict, or too lenient. I tend to see a similarity with us as parents of pwBPD - in other words - our boundaries are often out of balance on top of our child's illness.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[theplotthickens]

qcr,

Thanks so much for taking the time to post.  I am really interested in this book!  We went to their website to preview some of their materials, and WOW!   I agree with everything they say. www.cloudtownsend.com/video-advice/channel/Parenting/  As parents, we need to be encouraged in what we CAN do; and given practical tips for meeting our parenting goals.  These ideas resonate with me as practical, useful, and empowering to parents.  We need strong boundaries in order to sustain parenting over the long haul!

I think kids do best when parents are empowered to Be The Parent, and not treat kids as some type of equal partner out of a misguided attempt at peace. Our kids can quickly become our  master whose whims and moods we are enslaved to out of fear of another suicide attempt, another runaway episide, another SIB-related injury.  

We cannot support and love our kids when we are exhausted and depleted ourselves.  I have also heard T's favor letting the kids basically be in charge of the house, and "letting go" of anything that doesn't directly affect us.  I don't know if this has happened to others, but as I struggled to set and maintain boundaries, I have been directly undermined by T's who want me to avoid all power struggles and keep peace at all times over anything else.  My dd began running the home, directly bullying and imposing her physical will on me.  She began to sass and harrass me non-stop.  That was disasterous advice; and it cost me a couple thousand dollars to boot.   I would love to have a family T who had the perspective of the "Boundaries" authors!   There needs to be a balance of grace and truth.  Our kids need a healthy hierarchy and healthy structure... .and they need to "make friends with reality."  I love that!

"Boundaries" is SO going in my Amazon "Wish List!"

Today I was tired and I let my daughter disrespect me, and  then I drove her to work!  I usually don't give her rides or cart her around when she disrespects me.  See, if I was in a healthier place, I would have refused to give her a ride.  This tells me that I need to get healthier and strengthen my boundaries!

[theplotthickens]

pessim-optimist,

Thanks for posting!  There have been a couple of books that have really provided me strength and something to put in my parenting tool belt when I needed it most.  It sounds like this book may be one of those!

I see there are several books in this series.  Would the original "Boundaries" be best, or do you think I should buy "Boundaries with Teens?"     

[lever.]

I think I will need to keep going back to this book and re-reading it-it certainly has some challenges for me.

One example of something which I am slightly fearful of P112 - the authors give the example of the parable of the rich young man and how Jesus tells him the absolute truth that he must give away all he has to enter the kingdom of God.

This is given as an example of how God is absolutely truthful with us and that we should similarly be truthful with others ie if they violate a boundary we should tell them very honestly what they have done.

I imagined saying to my DD "actually I feel that you were very wrong to invade your sister's privacy" or anything similar- I can guess what may happen next and it would have implications for all the family.

The authors acknowledge this:

"If telling the truth causes someone to leave you this gives the church an opportunity to provide support and a spiritual and emotional home"

I just find that I am a litttle fearful but also that there is a lot of good in this book and it will help me- I will just have to figure out for myself when I am prepared to hold a boundary.

I do like the sections on natural and logical consequences and not protecting people from the consequences of their decisions and also the section on triangulation -again advocating straightforwardness and honesty.


I can see in this book where I have made errors but I'm not going to beat myself up-just try to learn better ways

[pessim-optimist]

I see there are several books in this series.  Would the original "Boundaries" be best, or do you think I should buy "Boundaries with Teens?"

I have only read the original. I imagine that the others would be age/topic specific, and therefore very good, too.

However, this is my trick for books: I order all of my books through inter-library loan at my public library for free, or check them out right there if they have it. And if I decide I really like and want one for myself, I buy it after I know what it is. Saves me tons of money!

I imagined saying to my DD "actually I feel that you were very wrong to invade your sister's privacy" or anything similar- I can guess what may happen next and it would have implications for all the family.

Ah, that's not your burden to carry - that is someone else's boundary violated... .

I think it would be perfectly appropriate for her sister to say: "I feel very hurt by your violation of my privacy."

[theplotthickens]

So I had a chance to look at the book at the local bookstore.  It has a straight forward, balanced, common sense approach that I connect with.

I found a free version of "Boundaries With Kids" online... .most of the main ideas in the original book look like they are there.  Since our kids have emotional and developmental delays, the "Kids" version is probably the most appropriate anyway!  Here it is: www.workofark.com/pdf/boundaries.pdf

I loved the practical ideas on how to change the language we are using.  I am going to go through this and take some notes.

[Daedalus]

I recently viewed this discussion & it really moved me.    

I wanted to share it with you all because it may help you also.  It is truly empowering to hear- from someone else's mouth- how they have handled their own emotions and their own children with BPD, and come to terms with the intensity of it all... .  please view this away from your child, and have a kleenex handy!             -->  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEKnfomVb_k