Parental alienation

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Does anyone have any suggestions regarding the best ways legal or otherwise to combat severe parental alienation? How difficult or unwise is it to attempt to get a court order for therapy for the child to work with the target parent? Presently the psychologist working with my son is supporting the fact that he is not seeing or speaking to me, which I find stunning to say the least.

[nvrgivup]

Does anyone have any suggestions regarding the best ways legal or otherwise to combat severe parental alienation? How difficult or unwise is it to attempt to get a court order for therapy for the child to work with the target parent? Presently the psychologist working with my son is supporting the fact that he is not seeing or speaking to me, which I find stunning to say the least.

[ForeverDad]

Richard Warshak, author of Divorce Poison, has a chapter (in the edition revised a couple yeas ago) about Family Bridges Workshop for Alienated Children, a focused counseling approach.  His website also describes it.  One point they make clear, they won't accept any cases where the alienating parent is ordered to pay for all or part the workshop program.

[sanemom]

There are many mental health workers who are not educated about parental alienation.  And what are mental health professionals taught to do?  To empathize with their client... .so that means if their client is anti a parent, the counselor will adopt that if they are not well trained in family systems or parental alienation.  Is there anything you can do to stop the counseling?  Can you schedule an appointment with the counselor to talk with him/her about it?

Sometimes a counselor can become one of the worst negative advocates ever and can make the situation even worse.

[livednlearned]

I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this, nvrgivup. How old is your son?

Like FD said, Richard Warshak's book is a good starting point. You may also want to ask around to see if there are lawyers who specialize in high-conflict divorces and parental alienation. They will likely know how your court treats parental alienation and whether there are judges that are particularly proactive about treating it. Some judges may still be caught up in the whole PAS thing. There was a period when parental alienation was being treated as a syndrome, but that didn't stand up to a medical definition. Even so, if you can get an expert involved who will attest that your ex is disparaging you or not supporting your relationship, that will help in court. There are reunification therapists trained specifically to work with alienation cases, but you would need a court order for that, and probably a hearing to determine whether your son's T is part of the problem.

[Thunderstruck]

I learned a lot of tips from Divorce Poison. There are a lot of things that you yourself may do to further alienation without meaning to.

One thing our L suggested is to create "hooks" with the children... .things that keep them interested in spending time with you. Pets. Friends in your neighborhood, activities that you two do together... .things that create positive memories with you.

[Eodmava]

NVRGIVUP,

The "hooks" that I chose to utilize are the following. 

First off, I rented an apartment with a pool.  Simple enough but the kids (Age 9 and 4) loving coming over on their weekends with me as they know that they are going to have fun at the pool.  I also get to spend time with my little one teaching her how to swim.  Memories made. 

Second, I have a little routine we do on Friday nights when they come over during the school year which consists of a.) going to the grocery store together where they each get to pick a treat for the weekend b.) each get to rent a movie of their choice (thank you red box) and c.) we always get pizza from their favorite local pizza place. 

Third, I have my own set of friends with children and these other children represent friendships that they only can maintain through access to me.  In addition to access to their friends through your adult relationships, you are also helping the children understand what healthy adult relationships between friends look like... .I have friends for 10-20 years while the ex cycles through friends about every 2 years.  Sad!

When I have enough money... .after paying for this divorce and her insane debts that were passed to me,  I plan on getting the girls a puppy... .but still probably a year or two away from that... .:-)

Hang in there,

Mava 

[Panda39]

My SO had issues with parental alienation too.  The best antidote for him was spending as much time as he could with his kids.  Spending time together even if awkward and uncomfortable still demonstrated to them that he wanted a connection.  Being with them was also a way to show them he was still the same dad he always was.  Being with them allowed him to demonstrate his love for them and show them he was not the person he was being portrayed by his uBPDex.  So my advice spend as much time as you can with your son and don't give up.

[livednlearned]

One surprising counter-intuitive piece of advice from books like Divorce Poison is to deal with any lies head on. The whole "don't put your kid in the middle" is advice for two non-disordered parents. When you have one parent putting a kid in the middle, and the other one doesn't, your child has only a distorted version of reality to work with.

Maybe looking around to see if there are reunification therapists in your area that you can ask questions -- that's if you can't get a court order to have you child be placed in therapy with you.

[Thunderstruck]

One surprising counter-intuitive piece of advice from books like Divorce Poison is to deal with any lies head on. The whole "don't put your kid in the middle" is advice for two non-disordered parents. When you have one parent putting a kid in the middle, and the other one doesn't, your child has only a distorted version of reality to work with.

Maybe looking around to see if there are reunification therapists in your area that you can ask questions -- that's if you can't get a court order to have you child be placed in therapy with you.

Yes but you have to be VERY careful on how you approach this! I know I've done the wrong thing a time or two... .I learned that SD9 doesn't like hearing that uBPDbm is lying or us insinuating she is a liar. So instead we just state our position and stick to it. Or sometimes we ask SD9 what she thinks the truth really is. This gives her a tool to be able to objectively consider the things the pwBPD is saying.

[Boss302]

One surprising counter-intuitive piece of advice from books like Divorce Poison is to deal with any lies head on. The whole "don't put your kid in the middle" is advice for two non-disordered parents. When you have one parent putting a kid in the middle, and the other one doesn't, your child has only a distorted version of reality to work with.

Agree with this 100%... .and I didn't do it based on some very lame legal advice. There's a case to be made for leaving the kids out of this kind of thing, but when it's basic dishonesty that goes un-confronted, that sends a VERY toxic message to children.

[nvrgivup]

Thanks so much everyone! I do have an appointment this coming week for a consultation with a different lawyer who has alienation background, just to get a different perspective/advice from what I have been getting with the present lawyer. Hopefully she will be knowledgeable regarding how to prove the alienation and what can be done therapy wise.

Im not sure what "hooks" I might be able to use with a 17 yr old boy who's father is ":)isney Dad" in general and has already taken him to Switzerland last fall(we are in US), believe it or not, but I will think about it.

I have already confronted blatant lies with my other child who is not as alienated and is older (D19). Frustratingly, she still challenged some of it! I am so amazed at the strength of his brainwashing with them. Right now I can't even speak to the 17yr old, he is flat out hostile currently because legally my husband did not succeed in getting me out of the house with either the petition for possession of the home or the pfa.

The whole "state your position and stick to it" seems like all that can be done when such conflicting info is being given to the children constantly.  I've kind of come to that also because right now it doesn't seem possible to totally convince them, since they are being lied to with such conviction by BPD spouse. Its been posed to me by a counselor that in our case my spouse seems to sincerely believe his own distortions which is very frightening to me.

[Boss302]

Thanks so much everyone! I do have an appointment this coming week for a consultation with a different lawyer who has alienation background, just to get a different perspective/advice from what I have been getting with the present lawyer. Hopefully she will be knowledgeable regarding how to prove the alienation and what can be done therapy wise.

Im not sure what "hooks" I might be able to use with a 17 yr old boy who's father is ":)isney Dad" in general and has already taken him to Switzerland last fall(we are in US), believe it or not, but I will think about it.

I have already confronted blatant lies with my other child who is not as alienated and is older (D19). Frustratingly, she still challenged some of it! I am so amazed at the strength of his brainwashing with them. Right now I can't even speak to the 17yr old, he is flat out hostile currently because legally my husband did not succeed in getting me out of the house with either the petition for possession of the home or the pfa.

The whole "state your position and stick to it" seems like all that can be done when such conflicting info is being given to the children constantly.  I've kind of come to that also because right now it doesn't seem possible to totally convince them, since they are being lied to with such conviction by BPD spouse. Its been posed to me by a counselor that in our case my spouse seems to sincerely believe his own distortions which is very frightening to me.

I wish you'd said how old these kids are - and given that, I think you might have a different problem on your hands. On the one hand, you don't have to soft-pedal as much when it comes to outright lies on BPDx's part when the kids are older - you can treat them more as "adults." And they do have enough age and experience to understand outright lies better than little kids do. I have two kids - D18 and D13 - and when the divorce began, they were 13 and 9, respectively. I can talk rationally to both of them now about their mom's failings without "trashing" her, but it was a very different story four years ago. That's the good news.

The bad news is that kids this age are old enough to come to their own conclusions about what's happening, and do so in a fairly "adult" fashion. That means they're free to utterly reject what you're saying. My D18 did that. She's starting college, and my plan was to have her stay in town for a couple of years, while she got her grades up and saved money so she could go out of town and finish her degree at a school she really wanted to go to. But BPDx has convinced her that she is fully able to afford an expensive private college that D18 would really like to go, versus the far less expensive in-town options. Keep in mind BPDx has a history of EXTREME financial irresponsibility - she's been kicked out of several residences since the divorce began for failure to pay rent, and was once arrested for financial fraud. She's also displayed delusional thinking about money on many occasions - she once told me she was expecting a $5 billion (yes, that's billion) payout once. So, as far as I'm concerned, the idea that BPDx is somehow able to shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars for an expensive private school that's 2000 miles from where we live, when she won't verify where the money's coming from, makes the whole plan utter rubbish.

The good news: I was able to say that to D18 in "adult to adult" terms, and she was able to acknowledge BPDx's financial issues. The bad news is that she decided to go with BPDx's plan, which is scary to me... .and more than a little heartbreaking. It's a rejection of my perfectly logical and adult arguments, made to a kid who's more than capable of understanding those arguments. And she's going with Mommy's plan anyway. I have no idea where the money's coming from, or how she's getting back and forth from breaks (again, this school is 2000 miles away), and can't afford to do that on my own. I see disaster on the horizon, but all D18 sees is that she gets to attend a cool school in Vermont that's 2000 miles away from all her family BS. And off she goes.

So here I am, helpless... .and more than a little hurt that she'd believe her crazy mom versus me. But as time went on, I had to accept that she's a grown up now, and can make up her own mind. I presented her with the facts, and she made her choice. If she was still a little kid, I could make the choice for her, but I can't anymore. All I could do was give her my concerns, and let her know I'm here if she needs me. I cannot tell you hard that is... .I'm still coming to grips with it. And I feel rejected, which hurts. But in the end, I think that's all I could do.

I think that's what you have to begin to accept to a certain extent when you're dealing with kids this age. You can't force them to do anything, and it's unlikely that a judge would force a 17-year-old to either, unless there were obvious safety / abuse / neglect issues. But you don't have to give up on them either - you can tell them you're still there for them, no matter what.

So, in the end, alienation at this age looks and feels different.

[nvrgivup]

Thank-you to "Boss" and his reply of Aug 18.  I haven't been on in awhile.  Sometimes I don't have the strength even to log on depending what's going on. I definitely agree that alienation looks different with older teenagers.  They are making their own conclusions about what BPD dad is saying and deciding to stick with him. Of course he's the one with the money and no rules.

I spoke to the other lawyer with the alienation experience that I mentioned in my previous post, and was basically told its too late to do anything with the 17yr old that is most alienated.  By the time any psych testing of Dad would be accomplished, he would be almost 18. She was sympathetic but basically turned me away.

I am distraught and cannot believe I am in this position. How can an entire family just turn on you and you can't fight back?  I have told them both I am here for them but am still trying to process the blatant rejection. I never thought in a million years I wouldn't be front and center with my children through their college years.

[Panda39]

nvrgivup,

This makes me so sad and hurt for you.  Are you seeing a therapist? You really need some support right now. 

My only advice is to keep that door open for your kids (try to spend some time with your daughter and maybe eventually you can reach your son)... .time will pass and things can change.

Take care of yourself, I really mean that take care of yourself!

               

[livednlearned]

It may seem legally difficult to do anything, and I can understand if you feel despondent after your attorney blew you off like that. But I also think it's important to prepare for an eventual reunification. If a door opens, you want to be healthy enough to see things from your son's perspective so there's no potential to lose him again.

Birth mothers who give their kids up for adoption have to go through this process, and you may be able to transfer some of those skills and lessons to your own situation. Reuniting with an estranged loved one can set everyone back to the original "trauma," and the way to help people through the rockiness of that emotional passage is to have as much awareness as possible that certain stages and reactions are normal. He may be angry at you, for example, and the therapeutic response (despite being difficult), may be to let him vent his anger until he can set it aside. It could be fury that has more to do with his father's betrayal and deceit than you, but he will need to handle his anxiety through blaming, at least at first.

I'm estranged from my father right now. What I want more than anything is for him to validate how I feel. He's a pretty narcissistic, egoistically fragile man, and it isn't likely I'll get that. So I'm trying to shore up enough strength to handle the rejection I expect. If he let me express how I feel, as complex as it is, and as negative as it might feel, it would allow me to move to the next step, where I feel grief and loss and sadness. And then to the next step, where we can repair and recover.

Don't give up hope. Spend this time learning how anger and grief and rage and anxiety work. If you resolve your own hurts now, it will make it much more likely you can allow him the space he needs to resolve his. When he's ready.



LnL

[nvrgivup]

Thank-you all for input. Im doing a bit better today.  I did spend some time with my daughter today and she was more like herself.  It seems she is on an emotional roller coaster too. I do see a counselor who has been very supportive throughout the unfolding of my circumstance.  I am hoping for reunification with my son.  Right now I do see some glimmers of hope but it always backslides on his part out of the blue. I sincerely believe when my BPD spouse sees improvements, he "stirs the pot" which is the only explanation I can think of for the backsliding at this point.  Its sick but I can't do anything to stop it, so despite the rejection behavior leveled at me, I keep showing support.  Ive never done anything this difficult in my entire life.  Its amazing what you will do for your kids.

[Boss302]

Thank-you to "Boss" and his reply of Aug 18.  I haven't been on in awhile.  Sometimes I don't have the strength even to log on depending what's going on. I definitely agree that alienation looks different with older teenagers.  They are making their own conclusions about what BPD dad is saying and deciding to stick with him. Of course he's the one with the money and no rules.

I spoke to the other lawyer with the alienation experience that I mentioned in my previous post, and was basically told its too late to do anything with the 17yr old that is most alienated.  By the time any psych testing of Dad would be accomplished, he would be almost 18. She was sympathetic but basically turned me away.

I am distraught and cannot believe I am in this position. How can an entire family just turn on you and you can't fight back?  I have told them both I am here for them but am still trying to process the blatant rejection. I never thought in a million years I wouldn't be front and center with my children through their college years.

My heart goes out when I read this... .that's exactly how I felt when my kids made up stuff about me during the divorce. I was betrayed by my own children. It took me some time to realize that was OK to feel that way, and I think you need to accept that as well, so it can be processed emotionally.

I know how hopeless you feel. Here's BPDx shamelessly manipulating your kids with the two things that are absolute catnip to any teenager - stuff and no rules. And here you are thinking: what do I have to offer?

You have quite a bit to offer, whether you know it or not. Even teenagers need some structure and some stability, whether they know it or not. Eventually, I have a feeling your kids will come to you for something that BPDx can't offer.

My D18 got sucked in with BPDx's promises of being sent away to an expensive private school in New England, but who did she call when she was unsure about the classes she was taking? Who did she call when she was worried that she was majoring in the wrong thing? Who did she call when she was miserable the first night in her dorm and was afraid she wouldn't make any friends? She called me. Why? Because she knew if she'd told her mom that stuff, the next morning BPDx would be on the phone to the college in full ":)evil Wears Prada" mode, demanding a total re-do of her schedule, a change in roommates, etc - which in the end was about validating how "awesome and powerful" BPDx is, and would not help D18 one damn bit. D18 knew that, and wanted nothing to do with it. She wanted someone who told her that no matter what she did, she'd still be loved and accepted. And that meant a call to me. She knows that even after all the things that happened between us in the divorce, she can trust me with this.

Your BPDx may be able to buy the kids off with stuff and no rules, but you have a far more powerful gift you can give them: unconditional love. The key difference between you and BPDx is that you can do this, and he can't. His acceptance and love for his kids is inexorably wrapped up in their love and acceptance of him... .just as it was with you. Your kids will come to understand this with time. Be the parent who's there for them emotionally, no matter what, even if it means accepting anger at you that you don't necessarily deserve, which you will be on the receiving end of. That may sound unfair, and it is, but remember how BPDx reacted to YOUR anger. That's exactly how he'll respond to your kids' anger too... .and imagine how much more that anger resonates emotionally with a child than with an adult.

They need you far more than you can imagine.

Hang in there and make sure you're getting help so that you can process your feelings.

[nvrgivup]

Thank-you Boss 302.  Your unconditional love paragraph hits the nail on the head. These are things that were said almost verbatim in counseling.  He is not capable of it. It was also said to me that BPDx is getting his emotional needs met by the children and not the other way around. He's using them as sounding boards, confidants, allies.  It makes me sick. My D19 actually told me that she said to him at one point, "I'm not your peer, I'm not your therapist".  Despite her insight and being able to say that to him, she is still very much playing the fence between the two of us.  The pull of a parent/authority figure is stunning, despite the obvious things even she is picking up on.

I am getting help, trying to stay consistent, and being present despite the rejection. It is definitely not easy but I am encouraged by what I read here.  The fact that there are such similarities in relationships with all who respond here is amazing.  I finally know what's going on. Bpdx's words and actions confused me for so long but so many here describe the same things... .It doesn't make it go away but at least I know what it is and know that others understand.

[ForeverDad]

All your children are older, they can handle direct comments, things that usually are kept (at least by us) from the small children.  Still, their childhood was almost certainly a dysfunctional one, your spouse no doubt obstructed their ability to observe, evaluate, and reason for themselves.  For them 2+2=4 when talking with you but it might be 3 or 5 with their other parent - and they may not even realize it for years to come.  That's how deep the impact is on their ability to reason, reach valid conclusions and hold on to those conclusions.

A major aspect now for you is to validate any correct observations and conclusions.  They had tons of invalidation in their early years, mostly by the ex's poor behaviors and distorted thinking, partly too for your acquiescence in not standing up to logic, truth and validation.  Of course, now you are informed, educated and know better.  None of us can change the past, but the future is an open book.

However, it's been said that often most children do eventually look back and see that we reasonably normal parents were caring, loving, honest and correct after all.  Whether that is sooner or later, who knows?

[livednlearned]

I worked with my therapist when it came time to talk to my son more directly about what was going on. It was time -- and N/BPDx walked so far over the line it was becoming negligent for me to not have a more "adult" conversation with my son (now age 13).

I'll say that I found it was very difficult to put my son's feelings ahead of my own. Just because your ex uses the kids to satisfy his emotions needs, don't assume that you aren't doing it as well. Understandable if you are -- your ex has put your kids in the middle and alienated them, and you want them to love you. Your feelings are deeply hurt and it's perfectly normal to want to defend yourself, or validate the kids only when they say something you want to hear.

My son is so weary from the alienation, he has a sixth sense when I become... .I don't know how to say it exactly... .inauthentic? I thought it hurt S13's feelings when his dad said something bad about me. It turns out that's not what really hurts. What hurts our kids is that adults have unresolved pain that they expect kids to heal. Growing up in a dysfunctional family, I'm a bit dense when it comes to catching this stuff.

If you have unresolved pain when your kids are talking to you, they'll feel it. They may tell you what they think about their dad, and validating them might help relieve some of the emotional and psychic pain. But don't use that as an opportunity to heal your own pain, as tempting as it might. They can smell it a mile away, and you just become another adult who doesn't have it together.

[Boss302]

If you have unresolved pain when your kids are talking to you, they'll feel it. They may tell you what they think about their dad, and validating them might help relieve some of the emotional and psychic pain. But don't use that as an opportunity to heal your own pain, as tempting as it might. They can smell it a mile away, and you just become another adult who doesn't have it together.

I'm not sure I agree with this 100%. I think my kids found it somewhat refreshing to see that Dad is human too, and has been hurt by BPDx, just as they were. It's OK to feel hurt over the things she does, even if she's your mother. Obviously, I don't share EVERYTHING with them, but I share the stuff they know about. I think it's important for them to know that BPDx's behavior isn't their fault, and revealing some of the hurt she inflicted on me with the same behaviors validates that for them. I also relate communication methods I use with her to keep the conflict down.

I think this has given us an opportunity to discuss Mom's illness in a constructive way, versus stuffing or uncontrolled anger.

[livednlearned]

If you have unresolved pain when your kids are talking to you, they'll feel it. They may tell you what they think about their dad, and validating them might help relieve some of the emotional and psychic pain. But don't use that as an opportunity to heal your own pain, as tempting as it might. They can smell it a mile away, and you just become another adult who doesn't have it together.

I'm not sure I agree with this 100%. I think my kids found it somewhat refreshing to see that Dad is human too, and has been hurt by BPDx, just as they were. It's OK to feel hurt over the things she does, even if she's your mother. Obviously, I don't share EVERYTHING with them, but I share the stuff they know about. I think it's important for them to know that BPDx's behavior isn't their fault, and revealing some of the hurt she inflicted on me with the same behaviors validates that for them. I also relate communication methods I use with her to keep the conflict down.

I think this has given us an opportunity to discuss Mom's illness in a constructive way, versus stuffing or uncontrolled anger.

I'm not talking about not being human (not sure what that is?). I'm not talking about hiding feelings, or masking vulnerability.

I'm talking about monitoring intentions to make sure we aren't trying to get something from our kids.

It's much healthier for S13, when he is angry at his dad, if I don't starting talking about my anger at his dad.

Related to this, and much more subtle -- there were so many things I did inadvertently to steer S13 away from deep hurt when it came to his dad. That just prevented S13 from learning how to regulate strong feelings. If you don't learn to deal with those feelings, you become very defended, and that makes it hard to create genuine connections with people. It makes it hard to be intimate and vulnerable.

Being that way with S13 was about my unresolved pain. I've spent a lifetime of stuffing those feelings as a way to cope. I thought making S13's pain go away meant he would feel loved. But instead, he learned to avoid feeling negative feelings, which is the unhealthy issue I brought to the table. I was too focused on N/BPDx's bad behavior to see that I wasn't helping S13 deal with his dad in a genuinely healthy way.

I have been a master at keeping the conversation very tidy. It was safer for me. It shows up in a variety of ways. Sometimes, it's humor (which is not to say that all humor is about deflecting pain). Sometimes, it's moving S13 too quickly through his feelings. Sometimes it's me thinking I'm validating S13, when really I'm feeling this smug feeling that he and I are both disgusted at his dad.

None of that helps S13.

[nona]

nvrgivup... .I hear you. I am on these board with halacious alienation of D11.

It went on all her life, truly with this disordered father, this is just the next development.

My UBPDX caused so much pain in our daughter and consequently me.


My good lawyer said, "you have already lost your daughter" and "your D11 is already F****** up".

let her go

any legal fight, any word even to ruffle UBPDDAD s feathers will result in more pain for my daughter. FACT

Dr. Craig Childress Blog has an article, "the stark reality" message to parents and ultimately SW

BUT HE also has an amazing set of YOUTUBEs ... .speaking to alienated kids. Extremely thorough.

check it out !

I am interested in others thoughts, I started another thread on this and no response.

He Discusses the precarious situation our kids are in, and they need so much empathy. I am to the point of letting go unconditionally... .somehow it raised D and my relationship up a few notches, cause I really DO understand her, love her and support her as she navigates crazy with a child's mind. !

[nvrgivup]

Nona... .It is so comforting to know that other people are experiencing the same things.  My lawyer told me to let it go also and that my son is already gone.  It's very hard to hear. Its frightening to hear but I do realize that the more I push the worse BPDx will act out.  I'm trying to stay consistent and give S17 space to see for himself what dad is doing.  It's hard but I think it is all I can do right now.  Thank you for blog info, I will watch them when I have a chance.

Several days ago foreverdad mentioned the possibility of  acquiescence on my part in not speaking out regarding truth and logic over time as contributing to the current problems.  There may have been times when I "let it slide" I will admit, but I wanted to clarify that unfortunately my speaking out on a regular basis over the last several years escalated the tension and fighting in the home.  It became a frequent occurrence and BPDx is stating now that my "anger management issues" are the main reason for divorcing me.  His unwillingness to see/admit his distorted views and what he was relaying to the children, increased my anger and frustration. If I could say anything it would be that in my case it wasn't so much acquiescence but trying to fight the battle on my own... .incorrectly... .having absolutely NO idea what I was dealing with, not understanding the almost complete lack of logic and why he was aligning himself with the children more and more as they got older. Unfortunately in my case, counselors now are also telling me that there seems to be a tendency within BPDx's whole family to distort reality which is compounding my problems in general and in the divorce scenario. I have as they say... ."a perfect storm".

[ForeverDad]

You may feel that his very intense claims would overwhelm your facts and no one would believe you.  Emotional claims versus documented facts.  It sounds like you'd lose but since custody isn't an issue, domestic relations court won't care much what he claims, it ought to be fairly easy to keep the court focused on the financial facts and not get involved in blaming.  Well, it ought to be, but it's astounding how much chaos and hassles an entitled and disordered person can do.

However, you need to remember that one of his tactics will be to pressure, intimidate, control and manipulate you.  He's had years to hone his skills and you've had years being targeted, pressured, intimidated, controlled and manipulated.  But now that the marriage is ending and about to be unwound, his demands will gradually feel less and less threatening, like a barking toothless old dog, sounds scary but really isn't once you know you can only get gummed.  Still, there are more days of discomfort and even distress ahead, just know that there will be an End to it.  Keep your eyes on the light at the end of the tunnel.  Fight your way through the cobwebs and then you'll bask in the sunlight of life and freedom.

[Panda39]

nvrgivup... .I hear you. I am on these board with halacious alienation of D11.

It went on all her life, truly with this disordered father, this is just the next development.

My UBPDX caused so much pain in our daughter and consequently me.


My good lawyer said, "you have already lost your daughter" and "your D11 is already F****** up".

let her go

any legal fight, any word even to ruffle UBPDDAD s feathers will result in more pain for my daughter. FACT

Dr. Craig Childress Blog has an article, "the stark reality" message to parents and ultimately SW

BUT HE also has an amazing set of YOUTUBEs ... .speaking to alienated kids. Extremely thorough.

check it out !

I am interested in others thoughts, I started another thread on this and no response.

He Discusses the precarious situation our kids are in, and they need so much empathy. I am to the point of letting go unconditionally... .somehow it raised D and my relationship up a few notches, cause I really DO understand her, love her and support her as she navigates crazy with a child's mind. !

Hi Nona,

My SO experienced some Parental Alienation during his separation & divorce.  Lucky for him the court gave him more custody and his kids eventually came back around. (he had the chance to show them his love) The courts custody change took the kids out of the middle which was helpful for them.  They could just say to uBPDmom we have to see dad because the court says we do. That made their time with dad not seem to mom like a betrayal.  uBPDexw is still playing disneyland mom and using money as a tool to buy her kids affections and indebtedness but the longer their parents have been apart the more they are able to see who is stable and who isn't.

I read some of Dr Childress' blog and he seems to "get it" what he says makes sense and I see where you are going by thinking about giving up the fight and letting your daughter go... .Radical Acceptance... .accepting what you can not change.  This is an incredibly difficult and painful decision you are contemplating.  But you would be doing for your daughter what the courts did for my SO... .you would be taking your daughter out of the middle.

Have you thought about starting a thread on [L5] Coping and Healing in a Family with a BPD Parent, Sibling, or Inlaw?  Maybe ask if there are some children of pwBPD parents that were in an alienation situation and what it was like for them, what would have helped them, or what do they think about you letting go until your daughter is able/wants to reach out to you again.

I wish you a solution that works for you and your daughter.

I wish you a daughter's love.  I wish you peace.   

[nona]

I can report that the last 2 visits with D went smooth, and we had wonderful times, almost no acting out.

I cannot know for sure why

1) time distance from UBPDADs abusive outburst mid august

(UBPDX told me to expect court summons, BUT HE NEVER FOLLOWED THROUGH !)

2) I have a supportive lawyer for finally some real "counsel"

("counsel" says "stay strong ,look ahead, build on good with D, award the positive with UBPDX , ignore the negative of UBPDX, including holding him accountable for ROFR, tax liability of $5000.00. , putting child in middle etc, etc. To save r/s with D, dont do ANYTHING that might upset MI dad, to keep it smooth as possible for DD. She says $5000.oo tax bill, pay it instead of courts and atty fees trying to get accountability. Thats how we are dealing with PA, she says courts will just make it worse.)

I find this Advice hard to trust as my experience was his behavior was not R/T me... .as far as I could tell, so how is not holding him accountable the piece that is keeping peace for D? THIS seems counterintuitive to MY EXPERIENCE, but so far so good.

THIS feels like the "he is just gumming thing " Forever DAd ! LOL !

D DOES seem reassured that I am not phased by crazy dads threats and her threats. I just keep on.



3) more letting go, moving on , looking forward energy in my life, no longer "living in the divorce"

last week only called her twice instead of nightly.

I think she actually appreciated it !

excruciatingly hard for me.

One day I saw her father alone down the street, I knew D was home alone at BPDDADS house, so I called her when he was not there and she was HAPPY to talk to me. AHA ! again... .


4) more practice validating D


In brief conversation, I told D, "I think I understand what its like, wanting me to NOT CALL when You are at dad's"

she responded "I dont think you do, Mom. "

BUT THAT WAS POWERFUL COMMUNICATION. even though brief... .

I am demonstrating that I AM trying to step into her world to support her ANYWHERE, ANYTIME, ANYHOW in ways that work for HER!

Trust building it felt like in our fragile situation.

As this does not happen in a vacume, but a continum; 3 1/2 years out I am finally really healing from the grief of the loss of everything, the hopes dreams, lies, all of it. SO DONE. It took soo long in my mind.

PA is just so devastating, eh?

This has really helped me step out of the ego part of my parenting and heal my part soo much. kinda wierd.

Im so happy to see your boys are older... .are they ready for those videos?

They are so awesome, I think.

D11 responded so fast when I made this shift, as painful as it was, I feel the rewards today !

Best wishes

It is so validating, having you all here

THANK YOU

[pilgrim]

Dr. Craig Childress Blog has an article, "the stark reality" message to parents and ultimately SW

BUT HE also has an amazing set of YOUTUBEs ... .speaking to alienated kids. Extremely thorough.

check it out !

Wow . . . I checked out the youtube videos and am working my way through Dr. Childress' website materials and blog, a ton of great stuff.  Thank you for turning me on to his work.  He came up with an original attachment-based view of parental alienation which seems to hold much more promise than the PAS developed by Richard Gardner.  I'm practically obsessed with this topic because I've pretty much lost my older daughter to this, and my younger daughter is rapidly following.  It's really the death of a child; even though they're still alive, the parent's influence causes them to make themselves dead to you.  Trying not to let grief overtake my life, need to compartmentalize and experience some joy wherever I can.

My heart goes out to each of you also experiencing this.

[Swiggle]

Near the end of my marriage just before I left I had an affair, this was a my slap in the face to myself that something was terribly wrong with me, my marraige and I had to figure it out so I left. I cut all contact with the person I cheated with and began working on myself. I blamed everytihg that failed in my marriage on myself. I found a T who helped me work through things and helped me through the roller coaster I had with my ex as we were physically and emtionally recycling for almost a year after the divorce. He degraded me for the cheating and punished me verbally, emotionally and mentally everyday. Ironically during this year of on again, off again he was involved with a woman who he was with when not with me. He even went to T with me and my T is still to this day convinced that he has NPD. We could have reconciled our RS but he refused to let this other woman go, so I walked away from him for a second time. He blames me for everything and does not like the fact that my daughter and I are so close.

My DD is 11 and a year ago while at dinner with her she asked daddy why aren't you and mommy together. When I've had the convo with her I have always said "it was mom and dad issues, had nothig to do with you or your brother. Daddy and Mommy love you more than anything and it was no ones fault, it was best if we weren't together anymore. Mommy was unhappy and neede to work on things so I decided it was best for me to move out. Well Dad decided to tell our 10 yr old at the time that we weren't together because mommy cheated on him 

She asked me about this the next time she saw me. I was stunned that he would have told her something like this, he was trying to turn her against me, to see me in a negative way and somehow make him look better to her. So my response to his behavior was "While I"m sorry daddy told you something that was between him and I, I am not going to lie to you about this. Yes I did cheat on daddy but that is not the reason wer aren't together. I kept it age appropriate and factual, I explained it was complicated and that one day when she was older and able to understand more I would share things with her that I couldn't share now.

This convo with my daughter brought us even closer together. Want to know waht my 10 year old at the time said to me after talking. "I'm upset that you would do something like that and it isn't ok, but I can see why you would. Daddy is so hard to love and it feels like he never loves me back, Did you feel that way too" I didn't respond. "She then said I wish I could divorce Daddy it hurts so much that he doesn't love me" A 10 year old said this about her father. Her perception of him is that he doesn't love her, it breaks my heart because inside I know how she feels. So his efforts to turn her against me failed. I didn't bad mouth her dad at all I just simply gave her the healthy/appropriate version of the story.

I've said before, actions speak louder than words. No matter what your ex says about you just make sure that your actions say otherwise. This kids will soon realize that what mom says isn't true.

[ForeverDad]

Well Dad decided to tell our 10 yr old at the time that we weren't together because mommy cheated on him 

She asked me about this the next time she saw me. I was stunned that he would have told her something like this, he was trying to turn her against me, to see me in a negative way and somehow make him look better to her. So my response to his behavior was "While I'm sorry daddy told you something that was between him and I, I am not going to lie to you about this. Yes I did cheat on daddy but that is not the reason we aren't together." I kept it age appropriate and factual, I explained it was complicated and that one day when she was older and able to understand more I would share things with her that I couldn't share now.

Mtrip, I'm not so sure I would have been able to bite my tongue and avoid blurting out, "However, once I realized the impact of that choice, I immediately stopped.  What he didn't tell you was that he did the same but didn't stop."

It worked out well for you, your child had already made her own observations and conclusions, often hard for a child of an acting-out disordered parent to do.  I do have a concern that once half the story is divulged for the purpose of blaming that it might then be appropriate to ponder whether to tell the other half of the story.

Validation of our children's independent observations and conclusions is our goal.  It may take some age-appropriate guidance and even redirection but the better our children can observe, reason and reach their own valid conclusions, the more prepared they will be for their lives when adults and on their own.