Do I have to pay her back?

[SpringInMyStep]

I'm divorcing my wife of less than a year. (we're both women) We don't have kids and we each own our own condos, so we've agreed to just keep our own stuff and make a clean break.

We're not speaking or communicating at all because of the last blow-up we had and also the fact that I'm just too angry with her to have any sort of contact.

Early on in our marriage, she loaned me around $7000 to pay off my credit card debt. I should also mention that she has a trust fund and I'm not claiming any of that and don't want to. She lived with me and we figured out the cost of the utilities + groceries and she agreed to pay me half of that minus $200/month to pay off the loan. Meanwhile, she didn't pay me rent or anything towards my mortgage payment AND I spent a LOT of money on her. She rarely left the house, so I'm the one who stopped by the store to pick up anything she needed. I'm the one who paid for cabs home from places so she wouldn't have to take the bus and be "triggered" by people. I picked up her prescriptions and most of the time paid for them myself, without asking for reimbursement.

So while we were still speaking, she asked how I was going to pay her for the loan. I told her I'd work on that and she agreed to pay for the lawyer, so she deducted the $1500 lawyer fee from what I owe, claiming that it's now around $3500.

Seriously? I just want her out of my life so I want to just pay her back and be done with it. When she loaned me the money, we wrote an agreement on a little piece of paper that now cannot be found. Anywhere. So in my mind, there is no loan. My friends and family are telling me I shouldn't pay her back and that I should send her an itemized bill for all the money I spent on her and tell her we're calling it even.

For some reason I'm afraid to do that because I don't want to risk her refusing to sign the divorce papers when the time comes AND I worry that she'l get her family involved and try to take me to court for the money.

What do you guys think? Do I have any leg to stand on here or should I just pay her?

[ForeverDad]

I don't know what is fair or not, there are a number of factors here, some in your favor, some in hers.  And you're right, it could be expensive to pin down the exact numbers, especially with some documents lost.  It might be simpler to take a page out of the BPD Handbook, page 101, "Ignore, distract and hope no one pushes the issue."  Maybe, just maybe, by the time it is time to sign the divorce papers, the loan issue will be swept under the rug with so much of the other claims.  Just make sure the divorce states all financial claims either may have against the other are settled.  So... .could that work?

Otherwise if you raise the issue it could trigger and overreaction from her.  It may not be technically 'fair' but the reality is that her perceptions probably are skewed and aren't 'fair' either.

[SpringInMyStep]

Thanks. Yeah, my friends/family think I should "send her a bill" itemizing all the times I spent money on her above and beyond what she paid me. Besides being a very difficult thing to figure out with any precision, I really think this would just provoke her into some kind of rage and make her do something stupid to get back at me. I just don't think it would go well.

My instinct is to just pay her back, divorce her, and move on.

[pallavirajsinghani]

I think that the operative word here is, "... .early on in our marriage, she loaned me... ."

I sense two diverse approaches in your post.  Your first post is whether or not it is a legal issue of having to return this money.

The second is whether or not it is fair.

The first approach begs the question... .is there something called a loan between married spouses?  Or is it all commingled assets.  When do commingled assets become communal property (in some states a marriage has to last at least 10 years before the assets are considered communal.

The second approach is an emotional one.  What defines fairness?  Obviously, you believe that she gave you a gift and you paid it back manifold and therefore the balance is even.

Your choice of the word, "loan" instead of "gift" tells me that you do feel that is your obligation to pay it back.

My advice is to use this as a tactic... .only offer to pay it back once all other financial issues are settled... .and then too, see if you can get it subtracted from what she owes you.

Yes, you both can claim that what she gave you was a spousal gift, especially since it was after the marriage... .and she can claim that you gave her was a spousal gift as well.

And I would strongly recommend that you read all past posts of Forever Dad... .because he solicited feedback from this board on every aspect of his divorce and based on that, developed very successful legal and emotional strategies... .which resulted in the best outcome under the circumstances for him and the children.

[BlondeRunner]

Yeah, my friends/family think I should "send her a bill" itemizing all the times I spent money on her above and beyond what she paid me. Besides being a very difficult thing to figure out with any precision, I really think this would just provoke her into some kind of rage and make her do something stupid to get back at me. I just don't think it would go well.

My instinct is to just pay her back, divorce her, and move on.

Just my two cents... .I don't find friends and family always give the best advice This comment stuck out to me as I'm currently considering whether to launch a legal action on my dBPDexbf (also to do with owed money). I have reasons for and against it which I am still weighing up but my friends and family are extremely militant about it: "You should do this! You must do that! You cannot let him do this!" and so on. They mean well - all they see is us hurt and they want to ensure that we get what is rightfully ours, especially if we have been treated badly. The thing is they are not the ones directly dealing with it, dealing with emotional strain, the hurt and so on.

I agree that to send an itemized bill like that is extremely provocative. Listen to your instincts 

[SpringInMyStep]

Thanks guys. Yes, I did use the word "loan" because that's what she called it. But I really do think there is no such thing as a loan when you're married, plus there is no actual proof that she loaned me money except the bank records that she wrote me a check.

Good point about the advice from friends & family because they're really pissed that she hurt me. However, they wouldn't be the ones dealing with the explosions if this did go bad. And I really have to think about my own sanity... .even the thought of pouring over my bank statements trying to figure it all out makes me really really mad. I don't think that would be good for me.

I think the best thing is to pay her and move on.

[ForeverDad]

Seriously? I just want her out of my life so I want to just pay her back and be done with it.

Many of us have thought that.  We just wanted it over with.  For some it worked.  For others, it became something they regretted because they gave away, gifted away, too much in the urgency to get out.  For example, five years from now will you look back and say you should have tried to consider the money as just part of marital expenses?  Would the amount paid be a hardship for you?  I presume it wouldn't be a hardship on her since she's a trust fund baby.

Weigh the factors, pros & cons, risks & benefits.  Since you would like to avoid a costly divorce, I think the big questionn is, How important is the money to her?  Would she make a stink about it or is she likely to not dwell on it if you don't bring it up?  As pallavirajsinghani wrote, in your state an undocumented 'loan' may be considered community property.  If not, then if she can't prove the check was a loan then wouldn't it be considered similar to your expenses for her?

As long as you don't put a hardship on yourself or that you would regret it later, I guess it boils down to the hassle factor.  (However... .I suggest you don't volunteer to pay.)

[SpringInMyStep]

Oh interesting, ForeverDad, because my original plan was to just send her a cashier's check as soon as I have the money. But I sorta like your idea of not offering to pay, but making her ask for it.

I really do want this over with. I've paid the attorney's retainer and he told me it shouldn't cost that full amount as long as there are no complications, so I really don't want to/can't afford for it to cost any more than that. My fear is that yes, my wife will think the money is important and would make a big stink about it if I refused to pay.

She recently actually asked a mutual friend about a jar of cash we had lying around that contained about $40. I said NO, we can call that even for the last time I paid for her prescription meds. So yeah, if she made a big deal over $40, I know she'll want her $3500 back.

So I'm going to just sit on the money once I get it and let my attorney send her the papers and see what happens.

[ForeverDad]

Understand that a person with BPD is unlikely to reciprocate your kindness, thoughtfulness or fairness, at least not consistently.  'Reciprocity' is a concept foreign to them since their perceptions are skewed and their focus is on themselves.

Definitely do not give money early in the divorce process.  It is probably your only 'leverage'.  Don't 'gift' it away too soon.  If she requests it then see if you can agree on a lesser amount (such as reduced by half the expense of the lawyer's fees) and not to be paid until the papers are actually being signed.  That ought to reduce the risk of new demands not to sign once your leverage is gone.