Help me understand LC while divorcing

[Heartandsole]

So I left the house back first week of May and I told my uBPDw of 10yrs (no children) that the next time we would be talking "live" would be in front of a couple's counselor or a Judge until she learned some "manners and a respectful way of dealing with conflict".  I was so sick of being yelled at, berated called names and devalued I couldn't take it any longer.  This is the first time I have ever set a boundary and held it so firmly.  We email, text and she leaves voicemails when she calls because I won't pick up. 

We went to a MC and she quit after two sessions.  We did not even get to the 4rth tenant of healthly communication.  Three weeks later when we went to another MC she picked out, I told her I was done.

So here we are in a weird place... .  We still have not worked on communication skills, I've been living away, she's changed the locks, hired an attorney and says she's 100% committed to the marriage and is begging me to "fight for our marriage".  I'm done, but want to see if we can talk with civility about deciding how best to divide up our marital assets instead of throwing lawyers at eachother which in the end will be to our mutual detriment. 

Problem is, to talk to her, I have to relax my boundary of no "live discussions" and working with a counselor on communication when I am aiming to get a divorce and she's aiming to get back together has problems too. 

How do you detach, do LC and still deal with mutual bills, the dog, house maintenance, etc. I still feel like she is going to bulldoze conversations and I don't want to stay in divorce limbo.

[catnap]

I think it very important that you consult (some offer a free or low cost first consultation) with an attorney to see how divorce works where you live. You do not have to retain them, but gather information.  It would be extremely helpful to find an attorney that has experience with high conflict personalities. 

Book recommendation: Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy & Randi Kreger.

I think trying to have a one on one discussion in person (if this is what you mean by "live discussion" with her could be very dangerous--especially since you are done with the marriage.  False allegations of domestic abuse are fairly common. 

[Heartandsole]

I have met with three lawyers as a first consultation, just haven't retained one yet.  I have selected which one I would use though. 

Certainly I agree with you that a 1:1 conversation is not happening.  I would have to have a third party there, but it is still hard to imagine having a conversation with her about this stuff.  I don't want there to be a fight, and I don't want the proximity of her to draw me back in if she is nice and start manipulating me again.  I want to be able to manage this process and since we have a house together and an investment property as well, it would be good to discuss what we think is best. 

We don't need lawyers to do that for us.  I kinda like not having any contact, I am afraid as soon as we have "something to talk about" I will be inundated in emails an voicemails again, and it has taken a concerted effort to not respond in order for that to calm down.

[Eodmava]

Hi HeartandSoul,

Bite the bullet and launch the lawyer.  The right lawyer will know exactly how to box her in and force an agreement before trial.  That should be your goal.  My $.02

Mava

[Heartandsole]

Am I just Naive to think we can work out some details and go to a lawyer with what we have decided and have them help us from there?  Getting lawyers talking is like a combined $500 per hour! 

I know you can't realistically answer that without knowing the personalities here, but I just would like to think there can be some kind of "Reason" Rational thinking and civility... .  GEEEZ what I am I thinking.  This is going to be a nightmare.

[ForeverDad]

The problem with working it out in advance is that, if you think it is succeeding, at any point she can throw it out and demand more and more.  Computer programmers call it "feature creep" where more and more features are added thus delaying the final product, I guess we could call it here "demand creep".  It is exceedingly hard to keep an agreement intact until you can get a judge to make it an order.  What you see as negotiation a pwBPD will see it as weakness inviting demands for more and enabling her entitlement and sense of "Pick one, I win or you lose".

We're not saying you can't or shouldn't try, many courts require mediation as an early step in the divorce process, but don't delay the case hoping she will finally see reason.  (Believe us, she will find ways to delay the case without any help from you!)  Mediation seldom works early in a case, best to try once and then quickly move on to the next step, though if she has a good lawyer then her lawyer may be able to convince her to take a reasonable settlement.  Maybe.  Many here have related how they did reach a settlement but only when the case was nearly over, such as with a big hearing or trial looming.

In my case, my ex had a favorable temporary order and so refused to settle for some two years until Trial Morning.  If my court house had steps I would say the settlement happened "at the last minute on the court house steps".

Without children, the case is much simpler, it will focus on the financial and material aspects, the assets and debts.  If you two can't settle, then tell her and her lawyer you'll let the judge decide.  As is often noted here, you are likely to get a better outcome from a judge than from a disordered ex.

Hint: And then you can later blame the outcome on the system, judge and lawyers.  As in, let them be the blamed fall guys.

[Heartandsole]

As is often noted here, you are likely to get a better outcome from a judge than from a disordered ex.

Oh man, I have not seen that noted here, everyone I talk to says the best thing is to negotiate a settlement and not go before a judge.  Is that just not the case when dealing with a pwBPD but would typically be sound advice?

It seems like you are giving up a sense of control over the outcome when you just toss everything on the judges bench for him to swing his cleaver and cut everything in "half".

[Boss302]

As is often noted here, you are likely to get a better outcome from a judge than from a disordered ex.

Oh man, I have not seen that noted here, everyone I talk to says the best thing is to negotiate a settlement and not go before a judge.  Is that just not the case when dealing with a pwBPD but would typically be sound advice?

It seems like you are giving up a sense of control over the outcome when you just toss everything on the judges bench for him to swing his cleaver and cut everything in "half".

Unfortunately, you're waking up to a very unpleasant fact: divorces with BPD spouses are exceptionally unpleasant. I proposed the "let's sit down and work things out to avoid legal fees" approach. She responded by filing restraining orders on me, and beginning a BRUTAL campaign of alienating the kids from me. I wish I could say this is going to go smoothly for you, but I don't like lying.

Reaching consensus with a disordered person is EXTREMELY difficult because 1) their emotions are such a whirl that what feels acceptable one moment is not acceptable the next, and 2) the disordered person's boundaries for acceptable behavior are very different than yours, so she's going to be perfectly willing to go WAY over the top to get what she wants from you.

The best advice I can give:

1) All communications need to be on email... .not phone or text, but email. This means a) you will have an easily printable written record of all your communications with her, b) written communications allow you to take the emotions out of your words, and 3) you can pick and choose what's critical to respond to immediately, and what can wait.

2) Make sure your attorney knows what your spouse is about... .and if not, find one who does.

3) If possible, take as much financial control as you can over your debts. Or come up with a written agreement on who pays what.

4) Get into therapy... .today. Right now. This process will be an emotional nightmare for you, and you can't afford to show your anger to any of the "professionals" who'll be dealing with your case. Save that for this board and your therapist.

[Panda39]

I concur... .I would not expect much working with your stbex either.

My SO did mediation with his ex at the beginning of their divorce and they were able to agree on somethings and then the very next day she wanted more.  Throughout the whole divorce she lied, exaggerated, agreed then disagreed. She just said and did what she thought the person she was talking to would believe or wanted to hear.  Didn't matter who she was talking to Judge, lawyers, Family Investigator, friends, or children.

To this day give an inch and she wants a million miles.   

So just be aware or maybe beware 

[ForeverDad]

As is often noted here, you are likely to get a better outcome from a judge than from a disordered ex.

Oh man, I have not seen that noted here, everyone I talk to says the best thing is to negotiate a settlement and not go before a judge.  Is that just not the case when dealing with a pwBPD but would typically be sound advice?

It seems like you are giving up a sense of control over the outcome when you just toss everything on the judges bench for him to swing his cleaver and cut everything in "half".

What I meant was that if left up to a disordered, entitled, possessive ex, you will always get the short end of any 'deal'.  With a judge it might be somewhat fair.

Often the initial demands of a disordered ex are extreme and totally unreasonable.  In my case, when we first separated she wanted me to have no father-child contact.  Court saw no problems with me and assigned me alternate weekends.  Not good, but court handed down more than the nothing she was trying to enforce.

Later those temporary protective orders were dismissed and judge warned us to work it out or come back with permanent cases, no more temporary protective orders.  So she demanded I agree to supervised visitation, I of course declined.  So she started blocking my father-child contact, even the phone calls.  I was blocked for over three months before my divorce filing came up for the initial hearing.  The judge verified from her that she had blocked my contact during the prior 3 months since we'd been in his court.  He didn't lecture her or read her the riot act or anything.  He just passively stated, "I'll fix that."  And so he assigned me alternate weekends again and I had alternate weekends until we settled on Trial Morning, the huge looming event she finally caved on.

The next step in the divorce case was mediation.  In mediation she wanted me to have alternate weekends.  I said I ought to have at least 50% parenting time.  Neither of us would budge and so the mediator ended mediation, saying to come back when we could agree.  We didn't go back.  But nearly two years later I arrived at court on Trial Morning and was greeted with the news that she was ready to settle.  And we settled not just for equal time which I had maintained all along was the minimum for me as parent, but I also stated one condition, that I become the Residential Parent, "otherwise let's proceed with the trial".  And I got it!

So do you see?  At first she demanded I be blocked.  Then later, only supervised.  Then later in mediation, that I get no more than the current alternate weekends.  She didn't grant me anything even somewhat reasonable until she had to give in, practically was forced to.  And it was court with its Authority that trumped her entitlement perceptions, as passive, slow and frustrating as court was, that did it.

That said, the court did set minimums but otherwise was abysmally slow and very nearly unhelpful.  However, it was most effective at being the Authority, passive as it was, and so my ex could no longer be The Dictator.

In many cases settlements are reached - as I look back, many of my outcomes were settlements  - but it is often the looming threat of a judge's decision that takes the edge off the other's entitlement and unilateral demands.  It's not unusual to get your "least unfavorable deal" just before an impending court event.  Does that make sense?

[Heartandsole]

Yes, Foreverdad that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. I finally pulled the trigger yesterday and retained a lawyer. I have a lot of axiety about what   might be around the corner, but at least I'm moving forward

I am glad you got a reasonable outcome in the end!

[Boss302]

Yes, Foreverdad that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. I finally pulled the trigger yesterday and retained a lawyer. I have a lot of axiety about what   might be around the corner, but at least I'm moving forward

I am glad you got a reasonable outcome in the end!

Good to hear... .and make sure that lawyer knows EXACTLY what he or she is dealing with here. Some do specialize in dealing with disordered parties.

[livednlearned]

The time around a divorce is often exceptionally high stress for both parties. That's often true for even low-conflict divorces. It may cost you extra to engage an attorney, but if you aren't feeling the high voltage of the conflict directly, you can actually think somewhat clearly about your strategy, and that can save you money. Your divorce is going to cost you more money than a low-conflict divorce, it's best to accept that and prepare for it.

I would focus on taking care of yourself first, and if LC or NC helps you detach and start the healing process, do it. Make it a priority.

The one thing that has helped me keep court costs down is to make sure every agreement has a consequence for non-compliance. Your attorney is going to assume that your ex will comply with everything agreed to in the initial divorce settlement. It doesn't work that way with high-conflict personalities. For example, say your ex agrees to put the house on the market while she's living in it. Then she obstructs the process every step of the way. She won't agree to an appraiser. She won't agree to the selling price. She won't let anyone actually show the house. When offers come in, she won't negotiate.

You have to spend money to go back to court to get her to comply. Judges tend to give people multiple opportunities, which means more trips to court. Basically, you pay to enforce the agreement, and become the de facto enforcer. What I learned to do (the hard way) is to write the consequences of non-compliance into my motions and orders. That way, when my ex didn't comply, the judge could see that N/BPDx had already agreed to the consequence. An example might be: Opposing party agrees to put the house on the market by date/month. If the house is not on the market by date/month, opposing party has 30 days to vacate the home or refinance by date/month. Failure to vacate or refinance by that date will result in a motion for contempt, with legal fees covered by opposing party. Selling price must be within x percentage of market value for homes of the same size/location/neighborhood. Heartandsole suggests three realtors and opposing party must select one. If she cannot agree within 7 days, Heartandsole can choose attorney. When an offer is made on house, if it is within 15% of the selling price, Heartandsole has veto power to accept the offer.

Read everything your attorney proposes. Insist on consequences. Look for potential loopholes and anticipate every kind of non-compliance you can think of. You know your ex, and you know how she thinks and works. One thing that happens to many of us here is that we think "giving in" to xyz demands will make it all go away. It won't. I gave my ex the house and had to take him to court three times to get him to refinance it. If I had insisted on selling the house, I could've at least applied my share of the proceeds to cover legal fees.    There is no logic to this -- it ended up costing him money when he had to pay my legal fees. But pwBPD often prefer to be negatively engaged instead of not engaged, because non-engagement means no feelings, and that is far more terrifying for them than being embroiled in the familiar feelings of hostility and conflict.

Take notes. Ask questions here, and if people can't answer, then put together a list of what things you need your attorney to answer. You can learn from our mistakes and the collective wisdom of people who have had to run this gauntlet more than a few times.

Also, there are some clerical things your attorney's staff may do that you can handle yourself. Find out what they are and if your L is willing to let you do some of those things to cut corners. Like maybe making copies or drafting documents. Be judicious in how many emails you send. My attorney charges more to open an attachment. I put together my deposition binder which saved me approx. $2K (you hopefully won't have to do this -- it was part of custody stuff).

LnL

[Heartandsole]

Thank you for your note LNL.  Funny thing is my uBPDw is a Realtor, so guess who will be selling our home and our investment property... .  This should be interesting!  I like writing in consequences into the agreements.  I will shoot to do that for sure. 

My L definitely said that I could do some of the things myself and try to save money, we will see if my wife does the same on her side

I talked to a buddy of mine this weekend that said that the best thing I could do would to move BACK into our house with her and then just be a complete loser/slob/worst roommate of the century and just drive her absolutely bonkers so that she wants a divorce (again).  That way she will cooperate.  He said his Divorce took 3 years and $500,000 in combined lawyer fees and had a week-long trial.  I am not going to lie, this was not easy to hear.  He said he started out being the "nice guy" and it totally backfired. 

My thought is to do something that is reasonable and fair, but even people close to her tell me that is not likely to happen.  Oh boy, here we go!

You know your ex, and you know how she thinks and works. One thing that happens to many of us here is that we think "giving in" to xyz demands will make it all go away. It won't.

Yes, I can see this happening.  So is the counter to be unreasonable on my side and hope to negotiate towards reason?

[Boss302]

Thank you for your note LNL.  Funny thing is my uBPDw is a Realtor, so guess who will be selling our home and our investment property... . 

You should see if you can demand a cut of her commission. 

[ForeverDad]

I talked to a buddy of mine this weekend that said that the best thing I could do would to move BACK into our house with her and then just be a complete loser/slob/worst roommate of the century and just drive her absolutely bonkers so that she wants a divorce (again).  That way she will cooperate.

Or it might make it easier for her to make false allegations or frame your for alleged mischief.

He said he started out being the "nice guy" and it totally backfired.

When you are dealing with someone who won't reciprocate consideration and fairness, then yes, being the Nice Guy or Nice Gal will fail.

My thought is to do something that is reasonable and fair, but even people close to her tell me that is not likely to happen.  Oh boy, here we go!

You know your ex, and you know how she thinks and works. One thing that happens to many of us here is that we think "giving in" to xyz demands will make it all go away. It won't.

Yes, I can see this happening.  So is the counter to be unreasonable on my side and hope to negotiate towards reason?

Not quite.  You're partly right, though.  You don't start with your best offer.  Whatever you offer will be countered with the opposite but to an extreme.  For example, you ask for equal 50% time and ex asks for 99.99%.  Odds are if a judge has to decide because of an impasse then the judge might "split the difference" and you'd end up with alternate weekends and an evening or overnight in between which is about 80% for ex and 20% for you.

You set firm boundaries and limits.  If you make an offer or proposal, put a time limit on it, Putting a good offer out there indefinitely invites it being nit-picked and nothing accomplished except extended delays.  Be aware that making concession will invite more demands for concessions.  You have to be able to get your point across, "This much and no more."  Or somehow make sure there will be no more demands before agreeing to something.  It will happen anyway, the entitlement and temptation are just too great, but be prepared to say No.  It not being mean, it's just your firm boundary.

If you want to be unreasonable, just be sure it won't be seen as such by the court.  Court will wink at a lot but if you make your position too far out in left field, it may rein you in a bit.

Sadly, those of the female gender often get a default preference.  The courts claim to be gender neutral but somehow their policies, procedures, etc usually benefit the female gender, especially when it comes to custody and parenting.  (The women here will claim it is also the disordered men, the squeaky wheel, even if seriously wobbling and twisted, gets the grease.)

[livednlearned]

You know your ex, and you know how she thinks and works. One thing that happens to many of us here is that we think "giving in" to xyz demands will make it all go away. It won't.

Yes, I can see this happening.  So is the counter to be unreasonable on my side and hope to negotiate towards reason?

If by unreasonable you mean taking a scorched earth approach, then no, I wouldn't recommend that. But like FD said, be a smart negotiator. Aim high at first so you can negotiate back to reasonable. And take into account that her inability to comply is going to cost you both money. If you start off looking for what's fair and reasonable, you're going to pay a lot to make that happen, so budget for that. Your L will be able to help you gauge how a judge might rule. Factor that into your proposal -- ask for a little more than that and if you ex won't settle out of court, then stand firm knowing what a judge will rule. Once I was out of the relationship for a while, I started to see how predictable the disorder is and just started to work the behaviors into my strategy. Didn't make the expense go away completely, but it made me a better negotiator.

Also, it might be worth thinking creatively about ways to eliminate her from the realtor position. Or give her a financial incentive to sell the house quickly, and if she can't, arrange for someone else to take over. Your ex might be different, but if mine knew I wanted something, even if he wanted the exact same thing, he did everything in his power to prevent me from getting what I wanted. Even if it hurt him, cost him money, created untold longterm problems for him, he would go for it. He could not, and can not, let go. Not for anything. If there's no conflict, he can't be a victim, and that is a fate worse than anything for him. 

[Heartandsole]

You know your ex, and you know how she thinks and works. One thing that happens to many of us here is that we think "giving in" to xyz demands will make it all go away. It won't.


Also, it might be worth thinking creatively about ways to eliminate her from the realtor position. Or give her a financial incentive to sell the house quickly, and if she can't, arrange for someone else to take over. Your ex might be different, but if mine knew I wanted something, even if he wanted the exact same thing, he did everything in his power to prevent me from getting what I wanted. Even if it hurt him, cost him money, created untold longterm problems for him, he would go for it. He could not, and can not, let go. Not for anything. If there's no conflict, he can't be a victim, and that is a fate worse than anything for him. 

Thanks for both of your replies and perspective LNL and FD.  She just sold her Mom's house (or attempted to before her Mom decided to stay put)  She did that for a 1% commission that covers some expenses. I am glad there is a family precedent and that would be good deal, hopefully she would agree to that again.  . 

[ForeverDad]

If she wants to sell the house herself, I doubt the court would force you to accept her charging a large commission, perhaps not any, just submit the expenses.  After all, it's marital property.  If you were a car dealer and the car had to be sold and you sold it, would you get to take a cut off the top before the profit is split?

However reasonable that sounds, we generally can't reason with our ex-spouses.  Anything we try to explain or justify is perceived only with the tons of emotional baggage of the failed relationship, a hurdle they refuse to work through or jump.