I feel like she killed "the nice guy" in me

[Infern0]

Anyone else feel this.

I'm so jaded,  cynical, angry.

I'm sick of people's problems, I want to just live for me and if people want to be around me then fine, if not I no longer give a damn.

I honestly do feel different. It's hard to explain it, but yeah that nice kind guy who would give his last dollar to a friend in need... .I don't think he's ever coming back? I've never felt like this... .I kind of like it

[Alex86]

I definitely relate to that. I have read so much about the "nice guy". And this I believe has been exploited by not only by my BPDexgf  but also from other girls.

Moreover, I have become more sensitive to criticism and bad reactions of people. If I feel any of these I don't spend time anymore to argue or try to understand.

In addition to those feelings I feel tired to compromise again for anything.  

If someone wants to be with me then fine. Otherwise let's split up and move on.

[TheBPDSurvivor]

I can so much relate to what you feel infern0.

I believe we all grown up as "the nice guy" because of our FOO issues. I've been USED by so many friends and neighbors and I always wondered why are people so cruel and using me but unfortunately, the world is so messed up. Our BPDexgf simply max it out with all the clingy behaviours and idealization and suck all the kindness within us.

I take it as a life lesson. Thanks to this crazy experience so now I know what boundaries are and when to lift my guard up.

[Pieter2]

Hi there

I identify with it, but in a positive way. I still want to be nice, but now I am not taken advantage of anymore. I would always try and please everyone and help everyone out. Now, I will still do it, but if you take advantage I cut you off. Are you angry about it? TOUGH. I feel it's much better. I also now think twice before helping others as I can see how it lead me into a bad space.

[camuse]

Hi there

I identify with it, but in a positive way. I still want to be nice, but now I am not taken advantage of anymore. I would always try and please everyone and help everyone out. Now, I will still do it, but if you take advantage I cut you off. Are you angry about it? TOUGH. I feel it's much better. I also now think twice before helping others as I can see how it lead me into a bad space.

This is definitely the correct thinking. We should all treat others with kindness and compassion, but we should look after ourselves best of all and expect to be treated the same way as we do others.

I think one of the reasons my r/s lasted 2 years was in fact that I was reasonably good at sticking up for myself. But eventually she broke me down and it was over.

She actually said it often. "You always look after yourself so well." But she said it with a very sad face. She wanted me to look after her 100% and sacrifice myself totally.

[Recooperating]

I soo wanna get back to the way I was before the r/s with my exBPD! BUT... .With a better guard for my boundaries... .I can only help people when I am ok myself. I think I had good values and good boundaries before... .I just never hung out with people that violated them as insanely as my ex did! I never had to protect them like this before... .

I am so tired of feeling the way I do... .Angry, sad, confused, dark, tired, over-analysing, hurt etc. I wanna be my old self, nice, kind, funny, full of energy, understanding... .I wanna feel good and happy. I wanna be able to dance freely, enjoy every moment and genuinly laugh till I cry, care for people like I always did, with a healthy sense of till what extend I can help.

I want the dark clouds out of my head... .I do wanna be nice... .But this time around it starts with being nice to me first!

[Caramel]

Yes, I can relate and I am very happy about it.

I have learnt that there is a difference between kindness and weakness, and that's the biggest lesson I took from this experience. I now have boundaries and I don't let people define my worth, abuse me or take advantage of me. I am now my first priority in life and am learning to love me and take care of me. My relationship with other people is more genuine now and I am a much healthier happier person. 

[Infared]

Hi there

I identify with it, but in a positive way. I still want to be nice, but now I am not taken advantage of anymore. I would always try and please everyone and help everyone out. Now, I will still do it, but if you take advantage I cut you off. Are you angry about it? TOUGH. I feel it's much better. I also now think twice before helping others as I can see how it lead me into a bad space.

I really identify with this. I did not try to please everyone, but definitely my pwBPD, although I really will never trust a woman in a relationship again... .I had to let that go.


I love what survivor said, too:

"Our BPDexgf simply max it out with all the clingy behaviours and idealization and suck all the kindness within us."  He forgot to add that they then blame everything that went wrong on us as well, when they are done sucking the life out of us.

[Popcorn71]

I am definately no longer the nice trusting person I used to be.

I don't trust anyone as far as I could throw them now and probably never will.  I assume that everyone has a hidden agenda and is out for what they can get.

Maybe I am wrong to think that way but experience has taught me that trusting people gets you treated like s**t.

I am now living my life exactly as I want to and I will no longer consider how it affects anyone else except my kids.  If people don't like it then they can get lost.  I have learned that I don't need anyone except my close family and at the end of the day, they are the only ones that have been there for me anyway.

It's terrible that I can't be the caring, loving, trusting woman I once was, but what's the point?  I might as well just 'take' from life like everyone else seems to do.

[BuildingFromScratch]

I was a nice guy before her, but I was the overly nice guy. Which tells me that much of it was born of my own lack of self esteem and my own vulnerable narcissism. I don't want that back, I want to love myself enough to only give out of the kindness of my heart. And the wisdom to not compromise myself when people try to step on me. I do feel like I've lost my spirit and joy though, and that makes it hard to give anything to anyone.

[Infared]

I was a nice guy before her, but I was the overly nice guy. Which tells me that much of it was born of my own lack of self esteem and my own vulnerable narcissism. I don't want that back, I want to love myself enough to only give out of the kindness of my heart. And the wisdom to not compromise myself when people try to step on me. I do feel like I've lost my spirit and joy though, and that makes it hard to give anything to anyone.

+100

[Visitor]

Hi there

I identify with it, but in a positive way. I still want to be nice, but now I am not taken advantage of anymore. I would always try and please everyone and help everyone out. Now, I will still do it, but if you take advantage I cut you off. Are you angry about it? TOUGH. I feel it's much better. I also now think twice before helping others as I can see how it lead me into a bad space.

Excellent post Pieter2

I'm always impressed when I see somebody taking responsibility for himself. You have learned from the experience and have woken up to people taking advantage of you.

[Infared]

Hi there

I identify with it, but in a positive way. I still want to be nice, but now I am not taken advantage of anymore. I would always try and please everyone and help everyone out. Now, I will still do it, but if you take advantage I cut you off. Are you angry about it? TOUGH. I feel it's much better. I also now think twice before helping others as I can see how it lead me into a bad space.

I LOVE this:

":)o not mistake my kindness as weakness!"

[LettingGo14]

When I found this community, I felt like a strung-out addict shivering in a corner.  It was 4 months after abandonment, and I wondered if I'd ever "get back" to normal.

We experience trauma.   I have no doubts about it.  And, trauma leaves an imprint.   But, as evidenced by our community here, we each seek to work with what we have.

There are two Pema Chodron quotes which nave guided me on this journey of healing.

First, "nothing ever leaves us until it teaches us what we need to know."  

And, second, "Our true nature is like a precious jewel: although it may be temporarily buried in mud, it remains completely brilliant and unaffected. We simply have to uncover it."

It took a while for me to stop ruminating over questions about what was "lost" and what was "damaged" and what was "changed"  [those are all valid considerations].   I did not "forgive and forget" my ex-girlfriend -- in some ways, it was much simpler (in retrospect) -- I "let go" and just sat with what I was feeling without judging it (or trying to "fix" me).

I learned that my own mind and heart generated so much of my own suffering.  There are 7 billion people in the world -- why did I give so much power to one?  And, why was I taking my suffering so personally -- after all, so many of us suffer... .

The fact that we are here together -- trying to heal and help each other -- is a sign that we remain caring and able to empathize.  Yet, it's so much easier to empathize with others than to put a hand on our own hearts and say, "it's going to be okay... .I care about your suffering."

My experience did change me.  I ended up letting go of much more than my ex-girlfriend.   I also let go of the thinking that I was damaged somehow.   I let myself become more human than I ever let myself be in the past.   Instead of "fixing" anything, I just sat with it, and I found something more core within me than I ever knew existed.

[thereishope]

I soo wanna get back to the way I was before the r/s with my exBPD! BUT... .With a better guard for my boundaries... .I can only help people when I am ok myself. I think I had good values and good boundaries before... .I just never hung out with people that violated them as insanely as my ex did! I never had to protect them like this before... .

I am so tired of feeling the way I do... .Angry, sad, confused, dark, tired, over-analysing, hurt etc. I wanna be my old self, nice, kind, funny, full of energy, understanding... .I wanna feel good and happy. I wanna be able to dance freely, enjoy every moment and genuinly laugh till I cry, care for people like I always did, with a healthy sense of till what extend I can help.

I want the dark clouds out of my head... .I do wanna be nice... .But this time around it starts with being nice to me first!

DITTO!

[thereishope]

When I found this community, I felt like a strung-out addict shivering in a corner.  It was 4 months after abandonment, and I wondered if I'd ever "get back" to normal.

We experience trauma.   I have no doubts about it.  And, trauma leaves an imprint.   But, as evidenced by our community here, we each seek to work with what we have.

There are two Pema Chodron quotes which nave guided me on this journey of healing.

First, "nothing ever leaves us until it teaches us what we need to know."  

And, second, "Our true nature is like a precious jewel: although it may be temporarily buried in mud, it remains completely brilliant and unaffected. We simply have to uncover it."

It took a while for me to stop ruminating over questions about what was "lost" and what was "damaged" and what was "changed"  [those are all valid considerations].   I did not "forgive and forget" my ex-girlfriend -- in some ways, it was much simpler (in retrospect) -- I "let go" and just sat with what I was feeling without judging it (or trying to "fix" me).

I learned that my own mind and heart generated so much of my own suffering.  There are 7 billion people in the world -- why did I give so much power to one?  And, why was I taking my suffering so personally -- after all, so many of us suffer... .

The fact that we are here together -- trying to heal and help each other -- is a sign that we remain caring and able to empathize.  Yet, it's so much easier to empathize with others than to put a hand on our own hearts and say, "it's going to be okay... .I care about your suffering."

My experience did change me.  I ended up letting go of much more than my ex-girlfriend.   I also let go of the thinking that I was damaged somehow.   I let myself become more human than I ever let myself be in the past.   Instead of "fixing" anything, I just sat with it, and I found something more core within me than I ever knew existed.

I like very much how you expressed all this, LettingGo14!  Thank you for sharing it.  I know I definitely have already become much more AUTHENTIC and REAL through my experience with uBPDh... .and I trust I have much more to grow through... .Ultimately toward becoming a stronger and more effective person overall... .Thankful to be thinking about an actual benefit of BPD... .

[levelup]

One challenge I have, is that I fear, in trying to become an assertive good guy, instead of a people - pleasing nice guy, is that I might overshoot my goal and become a bully.

I was bullied a lot in my adolescence, and I'm always afraid of becoming that which hurt me the most.  Through that fear, I put myself in a box that's way smaller than it needs to be.

[Notsurewhattothinkofthis]

Anyone else feel this.

I'm so jaded,  cynical, angry.

I'm sick of people's problems, I want to just live for me and if people want to be around me then fine, if not I no longer give a damn.

I honestly do feel different. It's hard to explain it, but yeah that nice kind guy who would give his last dollar to a friend in need... .I don't think he's ever coming back? I've never felt like this... .I kind of like it

I can so also relate to that as well. I got burned so bad that I don't care anymore ( I don't know if that is good or bad). In fact I met a girl about a month ago, she was starting to tell me about her roommates issues and crap. I told her that I don't want to hear any of that and told her that I was too busy to date. I basically dumped her. To be honest here, I have never dumped a girl in my life ( I am 42). I just don't want to be in the same situation and besides it is too early to be in another relationship. I still think everyday about my ex and all the stuff I went thru with her. I am focusing on myself and hanging out with friends and travel and that's it.

[elessar]

I learned that my own mind and heart generated so much of my own suffering.  There are 7 billion people in the world -- why did I give so much power to one?  And, why was I taking my suffering so personally -- after all, so many of us suffer... .

Thoughts like this going in my head has what calmed me down from the pain. I was a nice guy. I am a nice guy. But I am not the "nice guy" who felt entitled to a girl I liked but who "friendzoned" me. It happened a couple of times in teenage years and once I was fine, second time I did feel entitled a little because I felt that girl strung me along for a while.

As far as being nice is considered, I thought of being bad. Because hey, its the devil may care bad boys who always get everything. To many of us guys, we know its not authentic. But to many girls, that comes across as confident attitude. So I thought I am going to be that. But when I calmed down I realized, if I change myself... .then she wins. People have loved me because I am nice. I don't need 10 girlfriends to feel my value. I dont need any girlfriend to feel my worth. Why should I let down others who haven't hurt me, why should I let myself down because of this one person, when there are 7 billion people on this planet.

Second thing that helped me stay "nice" was - it is true that girls like bad boys. its a sociological thing. not all do, but it is too common to try denying it. As the nice guy with a lot of female friends, I have seen girls complain and complain about their abusive bfs and exes. And whenever I suggested a nicer person, they would complain "but he is boring." And I realized, am I becoming like them where I want this abusive person who takes me on a roller coaster ride, and not give any attention or chance to a simple and nice girl? I feel nice people deserve more attention and deserve everything. Therefore, no more trying to keep my abusive ex in my life, nor trying to be anything but myself.

[workinprogress]

Okay guys, I have been told that I am a nice guy my whole life.  My whole life has pretty much sucked.

That being said, I began looking at the reasons I was a nice guy... .

Seeking approval

Afraid to anger others

Wanting to be loved

Wanting to take care of others because I was not capable of facing my own issues

My failed attempt at being perfect because I was not permitted to make mistakes as a child

Now, I see that most guys make a plan for their lives and follow it.  I had to find someone to share my life with and please them.  It is self-defeating.

So, look at the reasons you feel like you need to be nice.  I was programmed since childhood to deny my own needs.

To resolve this, I am really trying to formulate a plan for my life.  What do I really want?  I'm not sure, but I am working on it.

Also, I don't have a problem with telling people "no" now.

I don't have a problem making someone else angry.  I now tell myself that they will get over it.

The key is making a plan for your life, and not being nice and allowing others to side track you.  If someone truly loves you, they will support you, even when you are not so nice.

Your best bet is to be your own best friend for awhile.  Also, hanging out with other guys is a great way to learn to let go of being so nice.

Lastly, allow yourself to make mistakes.

[Notsurewhattothinkofthis]

Okay guys, I have been told that I am a nice guy my whole life.  My whole life has pretty much sucked.

That being said, I began looking at the reasons I was a nice guy... .

Seeking approval

Afraid to anger others

Wanting to be loved

Wanting to take care of others because I was not capable of facing my own issues

My failed attempt at being perfect because I was not permitted to make mistakes as a child

Now, I see that most guys make a plan for their lives and follow it.  I had to find someone to share my life with and please them.  It is self-defeating.

So, look at the reasons you feel like you need to be nice.  I was programmed since childhood to deny my own needs.

To resolve this, I am really trying to formulate a plan for my life.  What do I really want?  I'm not sure, but I am working on it.

Also, I don't have a problem with telling people "no" now.

I don't have a problem making someone else angry.  I now tell myself that they will get over it.

The key is making a plan for your life, and not being nice and allowing others to side track you.  If someone truly loves you, they will support you, even when you are not so nice.

Your best bet is to be your own best friend for awhile.  Also, hanging out with other guys is a great way to learn to let go of being so nice.

Lastly, allow yourself to make mistakes.

Well said,

Basically the points listed above is what I have been doing. In fact, I am going to copy and paste into notepad and comeback to it and keep reading it. So true... .

[nolisan]

Anyone else feel this.

I'm so jaded,  cynical, angry.

I'm sick of people's problems, I want to just live for me and if people want to be around me then fine, if not I no longer give a damn.

I honestly do feel different. It's hard to explain it, but yeah that nice kind guy who would give his last dollar to a friend in need... .I don't think he's ever coming back? I've never felt like this... .I kind of like it

Sounds like you have received a great gift - you have recognized and even befriended some of your "shadow" parts - parts of you that you had disowned. That's how we become whole. WTG

[Turkish]

I can relate to this. One woman "killed" that in me who used to write love poems. Another, The Listener, my uBPDx, The Rescuer (ok, maybe that needed to be killed, or at least maimed, because not all rescuer traits are bad as long as one has healthy boundaries).

The three most significant women in my life abandoned me in various ways due to their addictions or mental illnesses: addict and alcoholic birth mother when I was 1, BPD mom who adopted me when I was 2.4 (growing up with a BPD Hermit-Waif), and finally my Waif-Hermit uBPDx. Though I have these feelings like I can't discern those who want something from me as opposed to those who would just enjoy my company, my gut says this isn't right.

I had no choice with my two mothers. I was an innocent child. Despite the    from my BPD mom, with my Ex, I had a choice. I'm even more cognizant of it now; painfully so. Can I lose the dysfunctional parts of myself without losing Me? More importantly, can I make that choice myself without me letting my pain make that choice for me?

[MommaBear]

Hey infern0,

I know how you feel! And let me tell you, there are women out there who can't STAND crazy exgfs who turn otherwise "nice" guys into a-holes.

Don't be that guy.

I would, however, suggest asking yourself how nice is too nice. Is the problem really that you were a nice guy, or that you (like all of us) have trouble keeping and maintaining boundaries? This is my problem.

But it is tempting to be selfish at times. To just put on my best pair of heels, find some young, hulking specimen of manhood and have my way with him for a weekend, before forgetting his name and finding another one the next week.

Okay, so maybe you can't relate to everything I'm feeling

But the truth is, I don't want to stop being a caregiver. Yes, a lot of that stemmed from FOO issues, but the truth is, the world needs more compassion and care, not less. It also needs a healthy sense of give and take, and that's something I think all nons need to work on. I'm still navigating this new mindset, but I think somewhere in us, we push our boundaries because we feel this will do something for us in the end. Maybe we were taught that the only way to get validation was to "be nice" at an early age? I don't know.

These are just some random thoughts because I think your post made me reflect on a lot of the feelings I've been having, and the struggle between doing what's selfish because I need it, and doing it at the expense of others. It's a difficult thing to grasp, especially after leaving a relationship with a pwBPD.

[workinprogress]

Okay guys, I have been told that I am a nice guy my whole life.  My whole life has pretty much sucked.

That being said, I began looking at the reasons I was a nice guy... .

Seeking approval

Afraid to anger others

Wanting to be loved

Wanting to take care of others because I was not capable of facing my own issues

My failed attempt at being perfect because I was not permitted to make mistakes as a child

Now, I see that most guys make a plan for their lives and follow it.  I had to find someone to share my life with and please them.  It is self-defeating.

So, look at the reasons you feel like you need to be nice.  I was programmed since childhood to deny my own needs.

To resolve this, I am really trying to formulate a plan for my life.  What do I really want?  I'm not sure, but I am working on it.

Also, I don't have a problem with telling people "no" now.

I don't have a problem making someone else angry.  I now tell myself that they will get over it.

The key is making a plan for your life, and not being nice and allowing others to side track you.  If someone truly loves you, they will support you, even when you are not so nice.

Your best bet is to be your own best friend for awhile.  Also, hanging out with other guys is a great way to learn to let go of being so nice.

Lastly, allow yourself to make mistakes.

Well said,

Basically the points listed above is what I have been doing. In fact, I am going to copy and paste into notepad and comeback to it and keep reading it. So true... .

Thank you.  Trying to stop being a nice guy, yet not turn into a jerk, has been very tough.  As tough as when I decided to start jogging after 20 years.  I catch myself saying things that I think people want to hear, instead of how I truly feel.  It's odd how ingrained this is in my psyche.

It is quite the undertaking.

[drummerboy]

This is a great thread! It's bringing up the same thoughts in me. I seeing a T and working on inner child stuff and the message I'm getting is to get to your true self, which is usually a pretty good self, and to peel away all of the armour we put on throughout our lives to try and fit in. I do think that those of us who have fallen for, and having trouble getting over a BPDex have some wounded inner child stuff to sort out. In my case I was the youngest of 4 and by the time I came along my parents were probably a bit over the parenting thing and my much older brothers were off doing there own thing so I've been going around looking for that deep unconditional love that I probably didn't get as a kid. A BPD in the idealisation stage pours love and affection onto you and that's why I think I fell so deeply for her. Even as I sit here typing I'm thinking, I don't believe I've ever felt as connected to someone as I did with my BPDex. Through therapy I think I'll find a pretty nice guy but a guy that will be able to set boundaries because I don't "need" that over the top love but "want" a deeper more grounded love. A love that has much more reality to it, a kind of love that a BPD has no knowledge of.

[thereishope]

All of these posts are great!  I want to quote them all and respond to them all... .

I guess I'll just try to share what I've gleaned from this topic... .  I fall into this same category... .major people pleaser while stuffing my SELF down underneath whoever I thought I had to be... .  Today, at 43, I find myself seriously desperately longing for TRUTH and AUTHENTICITY in my most inward parts.  I want to peel away all the layers of dust these 43 years have showered upon me (by the externals of life itself, as well as internally by the decisions I myself have made), and get to the core of WHO I REALLY AM.

I, too, believe it is a wonderful thing to "be a nice person", to have love, mercy, compassion and encouragement for those around me.  I agree that the world needs MUCH MORE of this, vs. the self-focused mindset blasted everywhere, through the media, etc... .  We humans need each other, and I want to truly "be there" for people in need.  In contrast, boundaries have definitely been my weak suit... .I've even said about myself, "I'm not good at the hard things... ."... .  I never really learned how to stand firmly on my own two feet (thanks for the input OOE!  ), having healthy boundaries around myself so I could be a healthy enough person to give to others in a healthy manner.  I, instead, became swallowed up in people and circumstances.  Time for a change!  Thank God for this experience with a BPD SO because without it, I would not have realized what an alternate reality I have actually been living!  Much hard work ahead, but I am looking forward to getting stronger as a person, and being a healthy blessing to others!

I also want to say that I believe you are ALL doing excellent, excruciating work here, and I, for one, am very thankful for all of you who are selflessly voicing your journeys here for us all to glean from... .!  Blessings!  <><

[Tibbles]

This has all really got me thinking. I too am was/am a people pleaser. Being empathetic and listening and reflecting was really valued in my family as a child and I think I got so caught up in that role I didn't learn how to be me rather than some one who is there for everyone else. Worked well for my exBPD, I was there to listen to his every emotion, to absorb his pain to support him no matter what and it worked for me too, that was the role I was used too. His rages and anger took me totally by surprise, not something I had any experience with or knew how to handle. Could not believe it when they started and had no defence against it. By the end I was so full of pain and frustration and anxiety I had even forgotten how to be kind. I feel I became a manipulative b___ ( something he accused me of and maybe bits of it were true) All of my good points had gone as I just gave up on living. Now I am out I am really enjoying learning to feel peace again, and I feel good about caring about others again. The nice me is coming back again and this time she has personality and is developing boundaries and is learning to put myself first. It feels weird but good.

[Visitor]

Could the traits a lot of you have been recognizing in yourselves be traits of narcissistic personality? (people pleasing, passive aggression etc)

I must admit I am certainly reading up on some material that is sending a slight shiver down my spine:

Are we allowed to post links to external articles?

Let me know what you think of this article. I'm also researching the effects our upbringing has on our interpersonal relationships. Its fascinating reading.

Can we really say we can CHANGE our core being  

[elessar]

We aren't allowed to post links from professional therapists' websites. Yesterday I had posted an article from that same site! Haha. Its a great site but unfortunately we can't. But I guess we can use the information we learn from there and share it here.

[Visitor]

What about posting the actual article?

If not then if you should google how narcissists and borderlines attract each other.

There is some fascinating reading. Be careful not to self diagnose as we all have narcissistic traits but some have more of a cluster than others.

[BuildingFromScratch]

I became a pretty hardcore narcissist from my relationship. I felt so low that I'd do stuff like spend hours thinking and reading about quantum physics or philosophical matters and trying to solve the nature of reality. Even as a small child I'd do this, and I know now it was my narcissism. However, I can admit my mistakes, I'm just emotionally thin skinned. I think that's the main difference from actually being a narcissist and just having traits. If you can admit your mistakes easily, then you're not an actual narcissist. Also true narcissists are extroverts who need narcissistic supply. I'm an introvert who gets his supply from his own thoughts. Aka my delusions of grandeur. :P

[freedom33]

Good. Let that good guy die. He wasn't real anyway and it was too one-sided. Better to not be too good or too bad and stay in the center. That's what wholeness is. I want this too.

Best of luck

[Caredverymuch]

Yes, I can relate and I am very happy about it.

I have learnt that there is a difference between kindness and weakness, and that's the biggest lesson I took from this experience. I now have boundaries and I don't let people define my worth, abuse me or take advantage of me. I am now my first priority in life and am learning to love me and take care of me. My relationship with other people is more genuine now and I am a much healthier happier person. 

Caramel, you are amazing and your statement " there is a difference between kindness and weakness" is most appreciated.  Exactly how I feel now. Just did not have the words 

[Pingo]

The fact that we are here together -- trying to heal and help each other -- is a sign that we remain caring and able to empathize.  Yet, it's so much easier to empathize with others than to put a hand on our own hearts and say, "it's going to be okay... .I care about your suffering."

My experience did change me.  I ended up letting go of much more than my ex-girlfriend.   I also let go of the thinking that I was damaged somehow.   I let myself become more human than I ever let myself be in the past.   Instead of "fixing" anything, I just sat with it, and I found something more core within me than I ever knew existed.

This is beautifully put and what I feel as well.  Truthfully, I think the last 2 months I have been kinder and more loving to myself than I have ever before in going through this tremendous grief.  I never understood the concept of self love, always thought I was loving myself but clearly one does not allow someone to abuse them if they are loving themselves.  This grief has cracked me open and I have faced the pain instead of trying to escape from it.  So for this I am thankful.  I'm not going to lose the 'nice' person I am.  He took so much from me but he can't take that away from me.

[Turkish]

You know everybody, my T told me there's nothing wrong with being a rescuer, he said, "I'm a rescuer."  It's why he does what he does, having grown up in an alcoholic household. He's 25 years strong on what seems to be a happy marriage. His wife was lost when she was younger, but found her strength around the time they met.

It may be why many of us do what we do for a living. It may be why we generally tend to be kind and helpful people. Do a lot of us need to work on our boundaries and FOO issues? Most likely. But let's not let the projected pain in the world kill the best parts of us. The world will be lesser, and so will we.

[thereishope]

The fact that we are here together -- trying to heal and help each other -- is a sign that we remain caring and able to empathize.  Yet, it's so much easier to empathize with others than to put a hand on our own hearts and say, "it's going to be okay... .I care about your suffering."

My experience did change me.  I ended up letting go of much more than my ex-girlfriend.   I also let go of the thinking that I was damaged somehow.   I let myself become more human than I ever let myself be in the past.   Instead of "fixing" anything, I just sat with it, and I found something more core within me than I ever knew existed.

This is beautifully put and what I feel as well.  Truthfully, I think the last 2 months I have been kinder and more loving to myself than I have ever before in going through this tremendous grief.  I never understood the concept of self love, always thought I was loving myself but clearly one does not allow someone to abuse them if they are loving themselves.  This grief has cracked me open and I have faced the pain instead of trying to escape from it.  So for this I am thankful.  I'm not going to lose the 'nice' person I am.  He took so much from me but he can't take that away from me.

I love this very much.  I believe I have to learn this lesson... .I'm slowly realizing that I have been subconsciously "judging my own performance" for years and years... .probably from childhood... .  I heard my "self speech" the other day, criticizing myself for something I was doing and it struck me how I believe I have been condemning myself daily, hourly, forever... .  Wow.  What a revelation.  Lots of work to do to correct this one, I'm sure... .Thank you for your assistance in opening my eyes to this... . 

[thereishope]

... .continued... .

Anyone have any suggestions on silencing the condemning inner voice of self?  I think I have been "not a nice person" to myself all these years... .hence, I find myself in an abusive situation... .  Can anyone relate?

[SC91]

While many of us may turn colder after a BPD relationship, I have this funny shift in my life.

I am an empath and introvegent in nature. My mother has BPD traits and she always put her emotions on me, never to my elder sister. I never argue with my mother and not express any of my feelings in the family, and Not feeling anything bad with it, I was willing to, I have a strong family value. At school there was this close friend, she was stronger in a sense, and we sometimes tease a few selected classmates who we toy a little, just some kind of kids thing never too much. I guess it was the way I could express my feelings.

Throughout my teenager and until few years ago, I became much less compassion on people, except my family and two really close friends. I felt I was clever, and being an empath have this intuition to sense who is good or bad, who is clever who is not. Although I never really taken advantage on the weak and less clever people, I internally do look them down. A little bit of narcisstic way of thinking, just to compensate my low self esteem as I didnt recieve enough love from family. I had a successful business which I worked hard, sacrifice alot of social life, surpass alot of my feelings n emotions, to build it myself. I guard myself very well not allow other people to take advantage, I had little compassion to people, and saw kind people are somehow weak not adapt in society.

Then things changed in 2006, when I met my first lover (in an real official relationship sense). She was such a decent person, much compassion, and a wise empath. She care and deliver love to her friends and me, without crossing the boundary or absorb negative energy from them. First time in my life to learn that a person can be both compassion, wise, and not having to burden other people emotions (unlike what I did in family which I saw kind = burden their problems). It made me felt so good. Since then I revert back to my my nature, started to be more open, more compassion to others.

This period doesnt last long. In late 2006, I started a new relationship with another girl who I now highly suspect is a BPD (I hate to label her this but things she did match well with BPD category). I spent three years which her, and experienced the usual things you guys know. Idealization (2 years) she validate me, then towards the end of relationship she started to date another and did alot of bad mouth behind my back to this new date and her close friends. After officially broke up, the usual drama bits and the one hurt me most was triangulation. I went NC for a year, then she contact me again last year. In the last year on and off we keep a bit of limited contact. I also have some co-dependency issues.

After I broke up with her, I was so down and so shock of the drama. The guilt either I place on myself or she force into me, made me feel bad and unworthly. I once again very compassion and caring to others, as if I am compensating something lose in myself.

While I was taking time to recover and eager for a brand new start, take on a new relationship, I had interaction with two girls, one is borderline another is sociopath. I didnt know much about personality at that time but sense something wasnt quite right with these two people. Nevertheless my curiosity lead me to venture deeper. On reflection now, I think the borderline/sociopathic tendency shown on these two girls share something similar with my ex. It was as if I wanted to "fix" these two girls or find closeness similar to my ex. I was very kind to them despite their funny acts. I blame myself of being such a fool. I was intelligent and well guard myself from teen to 30, why I allow myself to fall into such traps. Suppose if there are areas that are not fully recovered you tend to draw into similar people.

Now after all these chaos, I am depressed and loss my business. Sitting home for months not doing anything. I again become a little paranoid and sensitive when whoever say or do something which share some similarity with the three girls, it made me cautious. I see many borderline/sociopath in society now. Can be my sister, sister in law, colleague, or a friend. Todays society is like a power game, structured in a way where the disordered people can more easily navigate through the loopholes and take advantage of other people without breaking the law.

I am hoping soon I can return to the open minded, positive, honest, genuine, compassion and successful me. I hope.

[SC91]

I become so angry I want to take revenge. If I ever encounter a bad borderline / sociopath, I will beat them in their own game.

[Springle]

SC91 I sort of know where you are coming from with the revenge feeling. I hate feeling bitter and I am not a person to hold grudges but I am just so angry.

I feel mostly like my exposure to her has just made me a much more cynical, wary and suspicious person; and very emotionally unavailable and less open to new relationships. I've tried to date again in this time for instance but it's very hard, I now over analyse everyone and walk away from dates diagnosing them with everything under the sun. I just assume now that people are out to get me, cause me pain and they all have a hidden agenda.

It's awful. I feel like I will never meet anyone new with this outlook but I just feel like my mind is trying hard to keep me safe and alive.

[goldylamont]

hate breeds hate. abuse breeds more abuse. anxiety shared, causes more anxiety in others.

consider this--a pwBPD acts the way they do often times because someone else abused, neglected or abandoned them. they haven't dealt with this so then they identify with the abuser and begin to abuse others themselves. that's why they abuse us. it's a cycle, someone passed the baton of abuse onto them and they go around and hit everyone else they can on the head with it. because abuse breeds more abuse.

now onto us, we were abused. our trust was broken by someone wBPD -- but we have awareness, we have a choice. we have a choice to not abuse others just because we were abused. we need to stop the cycle.

if anyone here wishes their ex's would stop abusing people, then we also have to make the choice to heal and not allow ourselves to abuse others with our trust which has been broken. it's normal to go through an adjustment phase after being betrayed. to question others' motives, etc. however at some point we have to heal and realize when we are projecting our own issues onto others, take responsibility for this to change. otherwise, we're doing the same thing that a pwBPD is doing--treating others bad because of our own unresolved issues.

take time to heal, but break the cycle.

[Mr Hollande]

I don't feel that she killed the "nice guy" in me. I am still a generous and caring person to my friends and family. What has changed is my love and care for her. That will never come back again.

[workinprogress]

The more I think about this thread, I see how unnecessary all of this is.

I see plenty of nice people who are married to nice people.  Nice, even keeled people who deeply care about one another.

We don't need to change because we are nice.

I have been researching the web on how to build physical strength, emotional strength and so on.

One quote I came across yesterday was that emotionally strong people know who to keep out of their lives.

It's okay to be nice, we just need to get in tune with our gut and weed out the people we should not let into our lives.

If we meet a man or woman who vilifies all their ex's, or men and women in general, that's a red flag.

Oh, and it said that emotionally strong people don't need excitement or to be the center of attention.  2 more good qualities to look for in people, and make a note to avoid people who behave in the opposite manner.

[Infared]

I don't feel that she killed the "nice guy" in me. I am still a generous and caring person to my friends and family. What has changed is my love and care for her. That will never come back again.

I feel the same way... .but damn... .was it a long road to get there.

[thereishope]

The more I think about this thread, I see how unnecessary all of this is.

I see plenty of nice people who are married to nice people.  Nice, even keeled people who deeply care about one another.

We don't need to change because we are nice.

I have been researching the web on how to build physical strength, emotional strength and so on.

One quote I came across yesterday was that emotionally strong people know who to keep out of their lives.

It's okay to be nice, we just need to get in tune with our gut and weed out the people we should not let into our lives.

If we meet a man or woman who vilifies all their ex's, or men and women in general, that's a red flag.

Oh, and it said that emotionally strong people don't need excitement or to be the center of attention.  2 more good qualities to look for in people, and make a note to avoid people who behave in the opposite manner.

I like this... .thank you for sharing! 

[Heartandsole]

A great thread indeed.  Thanks to many for the wonderful insight.  I have been struggling with this concept myself, and certainly think that I have been taken advantage of and easily manipulated by a lot of people in my life.  I have always identified as being a nice guy but I have often felt taken advantage of.  I realize now that boundaries and self worth are the defense to that.  I have always had self confidence, but lacked enough self-worth, and I have gotten the two confused.  The lack of self worth goes back to FOO issues that I am trying to grapple with currently with my personal, internal work. 

I agree, girls often are attracted to the "bad guy" and I think it is really the sense of adventure and the confidence that is the attraction.  If they were offered confidence, adventure, passion and someone who knows how to be empathic and sensitive but who is also a whole person that would be the best of both worlds.  Also, being good looking and rich doesn't hurt... .I have so much to work on! 

I have always said that I would rather go through life giving mankind the benefit of the doubt and getting burned occasionally, than to live as a bitter skeptic.   I still believe this as I think that life presents us with opportunities that you can only take if you have a healthy amount of trust.  I don't want to be the "nice guy" stuck in the "Friend-zone" or the nice guy that gets taken advantage of in business dealings. 

It is my goal to find the balance of being that nice empathetic, strong man that is confident, full of self esteem but not full of himself, who is giving but knows his boundaries and how to defend them. 

The codependent nice guy, who is a rescuer/fixer and who puts other's needs, wants, opinions, and core values over his own and who looks into the eyes of others to find his own self worth... .that's the "nice guy" who I HOPE she killed.  That guy was just a 37 year old cocoon waiting for BPD to finally break him down, so the nice MAN can emerge and soar like an eagle!

[Pingo]

The codependent nice guy, who is a rescuer/fixer and who puts other's needs, wants, opinions, and core values over his own and who looks into the eyes of others to find his own self worth... .that's the "nice guy" who I HOPE she killed.  That guy was just a 37 year old cocoon waiting for BPD to finally break him down, so the nice MAN can emerge and soar like an eagle!

That is how I feel exactly! 

[freedom33]

The codependent nice guy, who is a rescuer/fixer and who puts other's needs, wants, opinions, and core values over his own and who looks into the eyes of others to find his own self worth... .that's the "nice guy" who I HOPE she killed.  That guy was just a 37 year old cocoon waiting for BPD to finally break him down, so the nice MAN can emerge and soar like an eagle!

That is how I feel exactly! 

Ditto!

[goldylamont]

A great thread indeed.  Thanks to many for the wonderful insight.  I have been struggling with this concept myself, and certainly think that I have been taken advantage of and easily manipulated by a lot of people in my life.  I have always identified as being a nice guy but I have often felt taken advantage of.  I realize now that boundaries and self worth are the defense to that.  I have always had self confidence, but lacked enough self-worth, and I have gotten the two confused.  The lack of self worth goes back to FOO issues that I am trying to grapple with currently with my personal, internal work. 

I agree, girls often are attracted to the "bad guy" and I think it is really the sense of adventure and the confidence that is the attraction.  If they were offered confidence, adventure, passion and someone who knows how to be empathic and sensitive but who is also a whole person that would be the best of both worlds.  Also, being good looking and rich doesn't hurt... .I have so much to work on! 

I have always said that I would rather go through life giving mankind the benefit of the doubt and getting burned occasionally, than to live as a bitter skeptic.   I still believe this as I think that life presents us with opportunities that you can only take if you have a healthy amount of trust.  I don't want to be the "nice guy" stuck in the "Friend-zone" or the nice guy that gets taken advantage of in business dealings. 

It is my goal to find the balance of being that nice empathetic, strong man that is confident, full of self esteem but not full of himself, who is giving but knows his boundaries and how to defend them. 

The codependent nice guy, who is a rescuer/fixer and who puts other's needs, wants, opinions, and core values over his own and who looks into the eyes of others to find his own self worth... .that's the "nice guy" who I HOPE she killed.  That guy was just a 37 year old cocoon waiting for BPD to finally break him down, so the nice MAN can emerge and soar like an eagle!

I love this response Heartandsole. You are on the right path. Regarding the "nice guy" and "bad guy" paradigms--it's important to note that both of these way of relating to the world are faulty, and i think you are looking to define yourself in a balanced way incorporating both strength and vulnerability.

Here are a couple articles I've read recently that delve into this topic.

www.markmanson.net/power-in-vulnerability/

For instance, making yourself vulnerable doesn’t just mean being willing to share your fears or insecurities. It can mean putting yourself in a position where you can be rejected, saying a joke that may not be funny, asserting an opinion that may offend others, joining a table of people you don’t know, telling a woman that you like her and want to date her. All of these things require you to stick your neck out on the line emotionally in some way. You’re making yourself vulnerable when you do them.

In this way, vulnerability represents a form of power, a deep and subtle form of power. A man who’s able to make himself vulnerable is saying to the world, “I don’t care what you think of me; this is who I am, and I refuse to be anyone else.” He’s saying he’s not needy and that he’s high status.

www.markmanson.net/vulnerability-and-manipulative-women/

... .a Nice Guy is a man who subverts his own will and desires to get people to like him

[Turkish]

www.markmanson.net/vulnerability-and-manipulative-women/

... .a Nice Guy is a man who subverts his own will and desires to get people to like him

In this same vein, have you or anybody else read the book No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert A Glover?

I got about halfway though it (so I won't give it a  complete review--- I'll get back to it some time), but I thought what I had read was good. In an early chapter, he talks about Attachment Theory, and his comments could be applicable to people like a us, as well as our pwBPD. He spends time talking about the very thing you quite above. "Covert contracts" and the like.

[goldylamont]

i haven't read the book Turkish but it does sound interesting. the perspective on Nice Guy-ness i think holds a lot of value. i'm not sure what 'covert contracts' entails, but it sounds as if it's describing how men can take on a 'nice guy' personality as a passive way to get what they want. i don't think there's anything wrong with going for what you desire, however i think as humans we tend to pick up when people's behaviors are in-congruent with their intentions. and sensing that there is a motive behind the behavior, insecurities are revealed in a person acting this way. i do think it's really about keeping your behavior in line with your intentions, and not being afraid to express your intentions that shows character. i'll check out that book sometime for sure.

also, you mentioned Attachment Theory which sounds interesting as well. i really loved the following book which breaks down attachment into 5 levels and discusses ways to let go depending on your level of attachment:

    Authentic Self

    Preference

    Identification

    Internalization

    Fanaticism

www.amazon.com/The-Five-Levels-Attachment-Toltec/dp/1938289080

[SC91]

SC91 I sort of know where you are coming from with the revenge feeling. I hate feeling bitter and I am not a person to hold grudges but I am just so angry.

I feel mostly like my exposure to her has just made me a much more cynical, wary and suspicious person; and very emotionally unavailable and less open to new relationships. I've tried to date again in this time for instance but it's very hard, I now over analyse everyone and walk away from dates diagnosing them with everything under the sun. I just assume now that people are out to get me, cause me pain and they all have a hidden agenda.

It's awful. I feel like I will never meet anyone new with this outlook but I just feel like my mind is trying hard to keep me safe and alive.

Springle, I echo your sayings. I confuse myself such a mess. Being an empath, since very young, I have this intuit of sensing good vs bad in the first few meeting and in most cases I am correct, proven in the people later actions. But my this curiosity just keep digging into further, my rational mind just tells me to be more objective, my learning motivation of exposing the unknown just keep me jumping out of my intuit comfort zone, my good nature of giving people benefit of doubt just keep me spending more time on. All learning curve. I think one day when I gain more experience I will once again return to my intuit, with a more balanced view, that will guard me well without causing needless fear nor over analysing.

Trust that one's core value and personality will get back to the original status in the long term. It just takes time.