what happens when you stop engaging them?

[momtara]

So my exH apparently realizes he is losing the power to engage me.  Not only that, it's back to school week, which often makes him feel powerless.

Last night, he called to 'talk to the kids' six times, then sent me angry texts saying I 'interfered.'

Tonight he sent a text asking why our 3 year old claimed I hit him.  Our child was half asleep and said no such thing.

I have most of the custody (he sees the kids every other weekend, 1 overnight) so there's not much more I can take away.  If we were in a custody battle I would have responded to this stuff by saying he was wrong, and ended up in an hour long text fight.  But I am not worried about his lies at this point.  It's documented that he lies and has mental health issues.

I have been advised by therapists to stop engaging him.  I sent a text in response, saying our child said nothing about being hit.  He responded "Yes he did," and I ignored the text.

Now that I am not engaging him, will things really get better?  Or does it get worse first?  I'm wondering what else he might do to engage me.  It's taken me this long to disentangle and I am doing it slowly and methodically.  

He had a similar meltdown last year around this time.  Eventually it stopped.  It usually does.  However, I am so used to kind of 'managing' the situation.  Now I am just carefully stepping away.  I still respond to his important questions about the kids, but not his false accusations.

[coasterhusband]

Others probably have better things to say, but here's what I'd add:

* "Getting better" is a very relative term. After much hope, I've come to realize that a pwBPD is simply not capable of change. The situation can get better by the way you choose to engage/participate/respond. But realistically, they are who they are with a condition that's not really capable of elimination.

* No matter how "good" they get, you have to think about how YOU are feeling. Even in periods of calm, I'm just as stressed, sometimes moreso when we're in yelling matches. At least when I am openly angry, I know where things stand. When things are "good", it's just a matter of time before they collapse.

* The issue with pwBPD is that they have the emotional maturity of a hormonal 12 year old. That's not a mean thing to say, it's literally the best way I can describe. Would you expect a 12 year old to be "done" acting out? Not really.

Create boundaries, protect them with fierce abandon, and stay consistent with consequences when they are violated. It sucks, but it's the reality.

[david]

When you change, by setting boundaries, refusing to engage with nonsense, etc., there will be a counter move. The trick I found is to stay focused on the kids and ignore the rages as much as possible. I believe they are called extinction bursts.

Over time the extinction bursts get less and less, the engagement decreases, and the other person learns a new way of behavior since the old way isn't working anymore. Not rewarding bad behavior usually changes behavior. It takes time and everyone has a different speed.

I used to get about 40 to 50 emails a month from my ex. I replied to 3 to 5 since they actually pertained to our kids directly. I ignored emails telling me the kids said I was a bad parent, I hit them, I yelled at them, etc. First, I didn't do what she claimed and I realized there was no reason to defend myself. I used to do that and nothing was ever resolved. Second, our boys would tell me things that happened at their moms that did bother me but I realized there was nothing I could do to help them by communicating with ex, it would probably make things worse since I engaged, so I focused on helping them cope and figure out how they could handle it when they are there. Doing that has led to a reduction of emails to about 5 to 10 a month. That took over three years.

Document the 6 emails and ignore them. Documenting solidifies your case if you ever need the courts. It's been said on this site many times, "negative engagement is still engagement". By not engaging you are helping ex to find someone else to engage. Over time your non reactions/no response will help the other person move on and find something else.

[Boss302]

You're going down the right path! Yes, eventually this does get better, and the engagement attempts become less frequent.

I don't even respond when my BPDx emails me anymore, unless it's an item that requires a response. I just let her be.

D13 has dance lessons? Noted. No response.

Taking D13 out of town on one of her weekends that she has custody for, with no loss of school time? Noted. No response.

Taking D13 out of town during my time, and during school time? Request denied. Follow up emotional vomit from BPDx ignored. I made myself clear that the answer is no. No need for further response.

BPDx is planning to move? Noted. She doesn't have the kids during school times, so no response needed.

In your case, if specific allegations are made, all you need to do is just deny them, just like you did. No further response is needed. If your ex wants to pursue it, then he has courts to plead his case in. Best of luck, pardner... .

I think us "nons" feel obligated to respond out of courtesy and politeness. And that makes sense with a non-disordered person. But the BPD sufferer will take that as his or her cue to re-engage.

I wish I could tell you that your ex will stop trying to engage you, but he probably won't. My BPDx still tries, four and a half years after I left her and 2+ years after the divorce was finalized. But the frequency of the engagement attempts will definitely decrease, and that's enabled me to get to get to a place with her that I don't need to engage anymore. And that's critical.

Keep it up - you're going down the right road.  

[david]

A recent story. Ex yelled at S15 about 6 weeks ago because he didn't do his homework last year at her place. They were on a highway so there was no escape for S15. He does his homework when he is with me and I do nothing special. I think it is him retaliating against her and her behaviors. I'm working on that with him. We have had numerous different talks about it and I think some of it is sinking in. School started this week so we shall see.

Brief history follows... .

I am also going to court in another week to seek more time with both boys during the school year because of this very fact. My petition was filed July 2013. Ex has delayed things but the judge put a stop to it the last few weeks and things are full steam ahead.

Ex had the entire last school year to rectify the situation at her place knowing full well what was in my petition and did nothing to help either boy (S15 and S11). I have copies of all homework for the last two years for S11 and I have a printout from S15's school with every late homework and when they were due. There are two that he missed when he was with me and there are numerous ones when he is with his mom.

... .so during the yelling S15 turned his phone on to record the conversation. Ex did calm down and then promised to buy him the "computer of his dreams" if he completed all his computer projects for this coming year before the school year started. I already set in motion that very thing when school ended last year. He has incentives from the school, his teacher, his counselor, and me.  I mentioned nothing to ex about it since I figured she would somehow sabotage what I was trying to accomplish. She realized this summer that he was working on his computer projects at her place so I guess that is why she made the offer. Well, the "computer of his dreams " runs around $15,000. He told me all about it shortly after his made the offer. I did not know he recorded the conversation at the time.

I talked to him about the price and thought it was way too much. I suggested he have a backup for around 500 dollars. I explained that I wouldn't buy such an expensive computer regardless of all the cool bells and whistles. I never criticize his mom and just say what I would do.

Last week his mom called when the boys were with me. He had already completed all his computer assignments. He did a really good job of it too. He told her all about it and she , of course, denied ever making the offer. They went back and forth. I was not near him at the time but learned about it afterwards. He was upset. He then emailed his mom the conversation he recorded. He then talked to me about it all. I listened mostly and did explain I thought his "computer of his dreams " was not fair to expect his mom to abide by.

A few days later she picked them up for her time. She calmed down by then and gave him a $2,000 limit to spend. I still thought that was too much but that is her choice and I did not want to engage. I saw no good reason to do that.

He found a computer for $2,200 online at a gaming computer builder. It was on sale on Labor day with a $700 dollar discount. He called to tell me what he found. His mom was not there at the time. Apparently, when she came back to her residence he showed her what he found. As I kind of expected she said no and hasn't bought him a computer. He is disappointed and angry with her. She is pushing him further away because of her actions. That is between him and her. She never involved me with it and I didn't get involved except to talk to S15 when he talked to me. My basic position was I didn't think he needed a computer that expensive and if his mom wanted to do that it was between him and her. She is his mom and she has the right to buy him that if she wants to. I made my position quite clear to him and also believed he should find something more reasonable. That was my position from the start.

I do not like the fact that I can't have an intelligent conversation with his mom about these kinds of things but I also have accepted it as a fact.

[Harlequin]

Looks like on right path,  not engaging means not putting up with their crap and personal attacks etc.

  I think six times in one night is excessive to talk with children.   Almost like he just waiting for you to refuse so could argue with you .

Yes once you stop putting up with their stuff, engaging,  there will be a period of time where things may escalate .  I recommend that all communication be on email or recorded text.   From reading and my own ex, they will even deny what they wrote . But I'm sire he know that already .

Will things get better?   Yes they will, as you learn that his crap n words have no effect on you.   Think of lot as a 5 yr olds tantrum ,  ask self why you have to m!manage his moods anyway, it sums but if he going dig his hole let him.  His learned helplessness is not your thing to fix. 

Just love the kids and be the mom you are, don't worry they will see him for what he is too, and always encourage the kids to speak, even if dad says its a secret.  Honesty and truth hurts nobody

[Nope]

I can relate to having the phone used as a tool to annoy you. It might be worth printing out phone records and holding on to them to prove this in court at some point. In my case the Parenting Plan says "not to exceed one call per day" so we've had to have our lawyer tell her lawyer to remind her of this. It's expensive, but hearing it from her lawyer instead of from my DH raises the chances that she'll do what she is supposed to do to about 50/50.

We've found that she can't wait for an excuse to engage in more fighting and nastiness. She values engagement more than almost anything else and they've been divorced for eight years and lived very far away from each other since then. So just expect that you will always have to keep firm boundaries and never relax them. Yes, as others have said, there will still be occasional blowusp and outbursts but for the most part they seem to go and find other people to play out their disorder with.

[livednlearned]

I am so used to kind of 'managing' the situation.  Now I am just carefully stepping away.  I still respond to his important questions about the kids, but not his false accusations.

This is a big deal! How do you feel? The tone in your post seems different. You've been nervous about setting boundaries, and you've taken great big amazing first steps. It's hard to let go of "managing" when you've been doing it for so long. This is wonderful, momtara. You're doing great  

Now that I am not engaging him, will things really get better?  Or does it get worse first?  I'm wondering what else he might do to engage me.  It's taken me this long to disentangle and I am doing it slowly and methodically.

BPD sufferers are all different, so it's hard to know what he will do to engage you. When I put strong boundaries in place, N/BPDx just engaged me more in court. Over and over. 51 orders in 4 years! Partly because he's an attorney, and is representing himself. And partly, according to my T, because N/BPDx has OCD, and he has a compulsive desire to stay engaged, even if he loses each time. Even if it costs him money when he pays my legal fees. Staying engaged brings him relief, even if it isn't pleasurable, according to my T.

Your ex has what sounds like a co-morbid mental illness too, so it's hard to predict how he will react. I think you mentioned that he suffers from delusions and hallucinations (?). My ex presents strongly for bipolar, has a family history of it, and has had one major psychotic episode since our divorce. Looking back, he was having less severe ones during the marriage. All of these qualities -- his legal background, his narcissism, his OCD, his drinking, his probably bipolar -- all makes him respond to non-engagement in a specific way that might be different from, say, a BPD sufferer who has hermit tendencies and no money.

I think the point that david makes is the one that I eventually learned, too, which is that you are actually managing yourself now, not your ex. He can't be managed. Not really. That doesn't mean that your actions have no consequence, exactly. It just means your actions have much less of an influence than you might think.

Being mentally ill means that they are responding to internal dysregulation that doesn't map logically to external actions. If you've grown up with a mentally ill parent, it's hard to recognize that your actions are not entirely cause-effect. You might do everything "perfectly" and yet your ex still has episodes and disordered thinking. We might think, when they dysregulates, that we shoulda coulda woulda done something different, but we don't really have that much power.

My T explained to me that as a kid, it was much more terrifying to think that I didn't have control, and created this fiction that was soothing -- the belief that I actually had control over the chaos. If I did x, then y would not happen. When y happened, then I figured I needed to do more of x, or do it better, or more perfectly, or do it in combination with z. That thinking worked great as a coping skill in childhood, but it's not useful anymore. It's taking me a long time to loosen my grip and let it shed.

There is a whole other level of healing that follows. For me, I realized that I was getting something out of the anxiety. It was so familiar, and strange as it sounds, anxiety was comforting. It's been unbelievably challenging to let go of that anxiety and start focusing on real life, including being a present and engaged mom for my son. He is showing signs of being a highly anxious kid, and that is making me want to solve this family dynamic as best as I can, starting with myself.

[momtara]

You are spot on as usual, lived and learned.  It does feel good to finally step away a bit.  But now he did something new today (temporary extinction burst, or worse?)  I"m about to post a new thread.  Please take a look, I can use your input!