emotionally abusive to kids - supervised visitation for that? or no?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi all.  Well, some of you may have followed my story - exH hasn't been taking his medication and is uBPD plus apparently (heard thru parent coordinator) bipolar.  I got supervised visitation and we demanded that he start taking his medicine.  But his doctors provided notes saying he's complying with their treatment.  My lawyer said she wasn't sure we could continue with supervised, considering the letters -- so we settled with an order saying he had to follow his docs' recommendations, has to provide annual letters saying he's being treated, and next year we get a new PC.  So he was back to unsupervised this weekend.

In the last few days, he has been using the phone calls to the kids (4-6 of them per night now) to send me texts complaining about me and how I handle the calls.  Also claimed one of our kids told him I hit him!  (He makes this false claim about once-twice a year when stressed, it's documented so I'm not worried that anyoen would believe him... .)

And in the last four days he's verbally abused me in front of the kids 2x.  One at a school event.  Second time was today.  He came to pick up our toddlers who are under 5.  He spent the whole time yelling and abusing me about not packing the right stuff for our kids etc... .I got more stuff together.  Then he snapped at one of the kids, ":)on't talk, daddy's off his medicine."  Then he ordered me to do something else, I finally said, "I'm not a sheep," and our older child (shockingly) said, "Mommy's not a sheep!"  So he snapped, You better watch your mouth!  Keep in mind these are young kids.

They both ended up in tears because he was yelling. They didn't want to go with him to his relatives' house for the night.  But I let them.  Wasn't sure what to do. 

He sent me a text from his house saying something nice, then something later accusing me of alienating them.

So he is 1) Delusional 2) Verbally abusive to me 3) Now verbally abusive to the kids 4)  unpredictable.

But he is too smart to ever threaten or commit physical violence, so far.

I have the whole incident on tape but I don't want him to know I was taping unless I can really follow through and do something worthwhile about it.  I want to keep taping in case there's something worse that he says or does... .

Considering he reduced both kids to tears, and admitted he's off his meds, why am I not sure what to do?  Here's my dilemma:  1)  I feel like to do anything would show my hand and maybe I should wait to see if it gets even worse... .  AND 2)  What do I hope to accomplish if I go back to court?  I could ask for supervised visits... .and then he will go see his doctors and say he's taking his medicine now and he'll go back and get unsupervised again.  Even if we demand that he does X, Y, and Z, he will probably still be unsupervised eventually... .and this time be even angrier!  I could reduce his time, but he has so little that it makes little sense to go through all that effort.  He can still abuse them in less time.  If he had 50/50 parenting time it might be one thing and I could ask for him to have less, but he has them two weekends a month.

I AM NOT MAKING EXCUSES, JUST HAVE NO IDEA WHAT TO DO.  There are specific things triggering him and it's likely that he will calm down in a few days (first day of school, recent court stuff etc).  If I go back to court, that's just another round of nasty and when he gets them back unsupervised eventually (no matter how long it takes) then he will just take his behavior underground and I'll never know it.

My lawyer is hard to get in touch with and I can't afford a new one.  She is good but very busy.

There isn't middle ground, it seems to me.  I can send a lawyer letter telling him to cut it out.  Pointless.

My question is... .would a judge order long term supervised based on his behavior, if it's emotional abuse alone?  And if that's even the right thing?

[momtara]

Hi all.  Well, some of you may have followed my story - exH hasn't been taking his medication and is uBPD plus apparently (heard thru parent coordinator) bipolar.  I got supervised visitation and we demanded that he start taking his medicine.  But his doctors provided notes saying he's complying with their treatment.  My lawyer said she wasn't sure we could continue with supervised, considering the letters -- so we settled with an order saying he had to follow his docs' recommendations, has to provide annual letters saying he's being treated, and next year we get a new PC.  So he was back to unsupervised this weekend.

In the last few days, he has been using the phone calls to the kids (4-6 of them per night now) to send me texts complaining about me and how I handle the calls.  Also claimed one of our kids told him I hit him!  (He makes this false claim about once-twice a year when stressed, it's documented so I'm not worried that anyoen would believe him... .)

And in the last four days he's verbally abused me in front of the kids 2x.  One at a school event.  Second time was today.  He came to pick up our toddlers who are under 5.  He spent the whole time yelling and abusing me about not packing the right stuff for our kids etc... .I got more stuff together.  Then he snapped at one of the kids, ":)on't talk, daddy's off his medicine."  Then he ordered me to do something else, I finally said, "I'm not a sheep," and our older child (shockingly) said, "Mommy's not a sheep!"  So he snapped, You better watch your mouth!  Keep in mind these are young kids.

They both ended up in tears because he was yelling. They didn't want to go with him to his relatives' house for the night.  But I let them.  Wasn't sure what to do. 

He sent me a text from his house saying something nice, then something later accusing me of alienating them.

So he is 1) Delusional 2) Verbally abusive to me 3) Now verbally abusive to the kids 4)  unpredictable.

But he is too smart to ever threaten or commit physical violence, so far.

I have the whole incident on tape but I don't want him to know I was taping unless I can really follow through and do something worthwhile about it.  I want to keep taping in case there's something worse that he says or does... .

Considering he reduced both kids to tears, and admitted he's off his meds, why am I not sure what to do?  Here's my dilemma:  1)  I feel like to do anything would show my hand and maybe I should wait to see if it gets even worse... .  AND 2)  What do I hope to accomplish if I go back to court?  I could ask for supervised visits... .and then he will go see his doctors and say he's taking his medicine now and he'll go back and get unsupervised again.  Even if we demand that he does X, Y, and Z, he will probably still be unsupervised eventually... .and this time be even angrier!  I could reduce his time, but he has so little that it makes little sense to go through all that effort.  He can still abuse them in less time.  If he had 50/50 parenting time it might be one thing and I could ask for him to have less, but he has them two weekends a month.

I AM NOT MAKING EXCUSES, JUST HAVE NO IDEA WHAT TO DO.  There are specific things triggering him and it's likely that he will calm down in a few days (first day of school, recent court stuff etc).  If I go back to court, that's just another round of nasty and when he gets them back unsupervised eventually (no matter how long it takes) then he will just take his behavior underground and I'll never know it.

My lawyer is hard to get in touch with and I can't afford a new one.  She is good but very busy.

There isn't middle ground, it seems to me.  I can send a lawyer letter telling him to cut it out.  Pointless.

My question is... .would a judge order long term supervised based on his behavior, if it's emotional abuse alone?  And if that's even the right thing?

[momtara]

Restraining order is a possibility, but I let them go with them.  I just didn't know what to do, realistically. He seems to do these things to scare and hurt me.  This is probably an extinction burst, but who knows?  I may have a chance to act, or acting may be premature.  Just don't know.

[enlighten me]

Personally I wouldn't have let them go while he was acting like that but it is a very difficult position to be put in.

How did he behave with the kids when he had them. Did they say anything that concerned you?

I think as you have it on tape then next time he comes to pick them up tape it again. If he behaves the same way then say that you are not happy for him to have them while he is behaving the way he is as he is upsetting the children. Ask him to leave and tell him that when he has calmed down you can discuss it in a calm and sensible manner. If he refuses to leave then tell him you will call the police and if necessary do so.

The two tape recordings would be enough evidence to show a court that you are concerned about his stability and the fact that he said he is off his meds shows that he cannot be trusted to follow the previous ruling. Then ask for supervised visitation.

[livednlearned]

Don't be hard on yourself for not knowing what to do. You're just starting to set boundaries. Once you keep doing it, and get used to it, you'll find it easier to listen to your instincts. Boundaries and good instincts kinda hang out together.    I found that it took practice. I also had to gain some confidence, which started to happen when things kept going my way in court.

It isn't so much that he was emotionally/verbally abusive to the kids that the court would pay attention to, it's the combination of that, plus his comment about being off the meds that would probably give them cause for concern. You're already well inside this ballpark -- he's been diagnosed with something, there's concern about delusions, you have third-parties who are concerned, you already have majority custody. Next time you see him slip up like this, don't feel too nervous about listening to your instincts. They're good. Let him deal with the burden of filing a motion for contempt against you. He's a grown up, and knows he has issues, and knows his kids are young and vulnerable. Somewhere inside him, he knows he needs you to protect the kids from him. With my ex, he knew when he was being excessively paranoid/psychotic. Yours probably does too.

Also, think of it like this: you want to model for your kids what happens when someone is mean, doesn't take medication, and says bad things. I think you might be a little paralyzed from reading all the stuff that goes on here, but you have some real advantages. Trust your instincts and put the girls first. My sense is that things will work out for you ok in court.

The worst that would happen if you prevented him from seeing the kids is that he would file an ex parte motion to see them. That would cost some money, but you would have the kids safe with you while waiting for the hearing. Sometimes these ex parte things go on for months. N/BPDx had to wait 3 months just for the hearing, although there may be a time limit where you live for ex parte hearings. In some states, it's six weeks.

You have to remember that the scales are tipped in your favor. A judge is likely going to see things through your perspective, although he or she will still need to rule according to their interpretation of the law. That just means they will bend it as far toward your favor. So even if you "deny" visitation, the judge may give you a hand slap and then get your ex to do xyz, like report on whether he is being medicated, or whatever you ask for in court.

I can't remember if you are allowed to use recordings in court? Even if you can't, and your L simply tells his L that there is proof he admitted to being off his medication, that could help you negotiate more of what you want.

[momtara]

In this case, the exchange was in person, so taping is legal this time.

And yes, the reason he is giving me these signals is so that I will do something about it.  He deep down can't necessarily handle the kids. 

My concern is that even if it takes a year, and he gets on his meds, whatever whatever, then what?  He's back to unsupervised and much sneakier now even then before.

I feel like if I go file yet another motion, it has to be like, "He has to do x... .and then he gets the kids back." 

[momtara]

By the way, I know I said once that the kids are girls, but that was to throw ex off if he ever finds me here.  One is a son - don't mean to keep being cagey.    I am always concerned he may come here someday.  In any case, they are both under 5.

Does anyone get supervised visitation just for verbal abuse of kids?  Being off his meds, I still can't prove it.  The tape recording of this weekend would be concerning if anyone is willing to listen to it, but that shows my hand.  I am going to tell my lawyer everything, but she seems less and less available.  (May be sick of me by now). 

[enlighten me]

I live in the UK so things may be different but we have social services here. It might be worthwhile giving your equivalent a call and asking their opinion. Normally social services wouldn't get involved in something like this but would be happy to advise you.

If you are arranging things with your ex over the phone try and shift communications to email so you have a written record.

Good luck and I hope you get this resolved soon.

[david]

Keep recording.

As lnl said, if he does the same thing next time dont' let the kids go and call the police. When they arrive just play the recording and tell them you fear for the childrens safety. The police will protect the kids. They are obligated to do that. Ex may even flip out in front of them. If he does they will take care of it from there.

This is a tough time and situation. No one is perfect and we all make mistakes. The trick is to learn from them.

[momtara]

Thank you.  Both very good points.  Keep them coming.  My lawyer just doesn't have time to talk to me about all this stuff.  I should be seeing my therapist and keep putting it off. 

[david]

One of the real difficulties I had when ex first left was that I had an idea in my mind of how she should/would be with our kids. That myth took time to dispel from my mind. Then I became upset with the way she was acting and tried to fix it figuring if I explained it to her she would get it and take care of the kids the right way.

Eventually I realized she was gonna do what she was gonna do and I needed to help our kids deal with the reality. During this time they were learning on their own. However, learning to listen to them and validate helped them to find good coping strategies.

When my ex left our boys wre 8.5 and 4.5 years old. I think the younger one had the most difficulty back then because of his age and his limited coping mechanisms. As the boys got older they developed better/more strategies. They are 15 and 11 now and I see how, as they got older, they learned more ways to deal with their mom.

Not taking what my ex was doing personally was something I had to learn. I now view her as a court ordered babysitter that I have no say about. The only exceptions are when I think the court order is not putting the kids best interest in front. I don't have examples like yours but I do have one I remember.

I pick the boys up at school on Thursdays. The court order has me taking them to their moms later that evening. Last year I receieved a call from S11's school nurse. He was not feeling well. The nurse said she called his mom three times and left a voicemail. Ex is a nurse and I am sure she let the nurse know that before. I was already on my way to pick S15 up at school since it was a Thursday. I told the nurse I would be there in about 15 minutes. I arrived at the school in about 15 minutes. S11 had a fever so I asked the nurse if she thouhght tylenol was a good idea. She agreed and gave him some. We went back to my car and drove to his moms which is closer. We normally do that to pick some of their things. Ex's car was out front. She did not answer her door and did not answer her phone. I assumed she was sleeping. An hour later I received a frantic call from ex. I emailed her all the info I had including the fact that S11 was in bed and sleeping. I said I was not waking him up and I would keep her posted if anything else arose. Ex replied that I was in contempt because I was supposed to drop them off at her place. I repeated that I was going to lert S11 sleep and I would keep an eye on him. I had no intention of waking a sick child up to follow a court order. Ex sent several emails threatening me. I ignored them. The next day he was still not feeling well so I called the pediatrician. I got an appointment and emailed ex with the time. She acknowledged the email and never showed up at the docs. I am certain, if ex filed a petition, I would have been fine.

[livednlearned]

In this case, the exchange was in person, so taping is legal this time.

And yes, the reason he is giving me these signals is so that I will do something about it.  He deep down can't necessarily handle the kids. 

My concern is that even if it takes a year, and he gets on his meds, whatever whatever, then what?  He's back to unsupervised and much sneakier now even then before.

I feel like if I go file yet another motion, it has to be like, "He has to do x... .and then he gets the kids back." 

I think you are feeling paralyzed too much by long-term strategic thinking. If you want to protect the kids, protect them. Don't second-guess that instinct anymore, ok? You're a good mom. Don't worry about what happens if he goes back on his medication, or what could happen in a year. Focus on your gut instincts and do what's right for them when things get heated.

You feel anxious about court stuff because it's new to you, it has a lot of authority, and it's expensive. You need to separate that from your (good) instincts about the kids. Right now, in front of you and the kids, he admitted he wasn't taking medication. He got emotionally and verbally abusive, and because of their ages, and his mental illness diagnoses, you felt understandably worried. Then you started to over-think. It's a common trait among people here, for some reason. We seem to be people who second guess why we're in boiling hot water. Should we turn the heat down? Should we move to the other side of the pot? Maybe it will start to cool on its own because it's 10pm after all. Or maybe if we close our eyes it won't feel as hot. If we turn down the heat, will someone get mad at us? What if they turn it up even hotter.

A person who is thinking in healthy ways just gets out of the pot. Doesn't even think twice about it. Scalding hot boiling water? I'm outta here.

You need to get in touch with that instinct. It's in you.

Don't worry about whether or not the verbal/emotional abuse is sufficient to warrant supervised visitation. It makes sense that you are trying to weigh everything -- the expense, the change of winning, not wanting to tip your hand that you're recording, etc. But if you weigh everything all the time, you're going to get paralyzed. You need to get back in touch with your natural instincts.

I filed an ex parte motion to suspend visitation when N/BPDx sent text messages to S13 about my BF being a pedophile, among other strange messages. N/BPDx always did this stuff on Fridays when I couldn't reach my L, and when visitation was supposed to happen the next day. When I went into court, I asked that visitation be suspended until N/BPDx had a psych eval, went to anger management classes, and got substance abuse treatment. Technically, I lost that hearing because the judge ordered visitation to resume. But the judge also said, "No more inappropriate messages to S13 or else no visitation. And yes, N/BPDx needs to do these three things within 30 days."

This is how court works. You lose what you want -- the big ticket item -- but the judge gives the opposing party very reasonable instructions to follow that they can't. That seems to be the way people win in court, by making custody the opposing party's to lose.

Court is on your side, momtara.

The next time something like this happens, calmly tell your ex that he is not in any shape to be caring for two young children at the moment, and that you hope he changes his mind about taking his medication, and staying in therapy. Tell him to send you an email describing how he is going to stay in treatment, or whatever. Might as well get some evidence in writing if you can!

Then get in the car and tell your kids that it's not ok for people to talk like that. Not to you, and not to them. Tell them that their dad is trying to get better, but he finds it hard. When he takes care of himself, he can do fun things, but he isn't doing that right now, so you're all going to the park to run around. If they feel upset or bad, let them feel that way. It will help them learn to regulate negative feelings, and that's what builds resilience. Ask them how they feel, and validate those feelings. They love him but are mad? That's ok. They don't love him right now because he was mean? That's ok. They are mad at you for something? That's ok.

Then go see your T! You need help dealing with this stuff too.



LnL

[momtara]

I know.  Thank you.

My question becomes:  Should I wait until next time, or do something after he brings them home?  What is my objective in court?  He already is in counseling.  I could tell my lawyer tomorrow to do something, still file something even though he took them... .

I just don't know.

I *do* worry about all the implications, because this is BPD and we do have to think unlike normal people.

I think his mood probably will pass.  Until next time.

David's story is a good one - but my kids are too young to learn the coping mechanisms... .

[momtara]

What if we send him and his L a sternly worded letter saying that he needs a letter from his psychiatrist saying he's seeing him every 4 weeks, and he is being stabilized on his medication - and if he doesn't get the letter, he needs a psych eval - and if he doesn't do that, no unsupervised until he does?  Threatening without using the courts?  I also don't have to tell him I taped it. 

Or telling his therapist what happened?

Or... .?  I'm trying to think of a middle ground between either;

a) Just waiting 'til next time and 

b)  Going back to court for supervised again, pending x y and z. 

In my state, to file an ex parte emergency motion, you have to write a whole thing saying harm WILL come if this matter is not dealt with within 24 hours.  It is a high standard.  I wish you could just write that harm "may" come!

[momtara]

Also, lived and learned, my instinct maybe wasn't what it should be.  My instinct was to just not fight, and not show him that his behavior was bothering me.  You know, set boundaries.  I guess I have convinced myself that they would be fine after I was not there... .But maybe this was a case when I should have said, "Hey, leave them alone!"  

By the time he put them in the car, the emotionally abusive part was over (I think).  Of course, I still worried.  Just wondering how to separate geniuine fears from my frustrations and not wanting my kids to be even 1 percent emotionally abused.

[momtara]

Well, they are back unharmed... .far as I can tell!  They want to go to the park

[enlighten me]

Hi Momtara

Don't beat yourself up for letting the kids go. We all know how messed up our thinking gets with our BPD around. Hindsight is a wonderful thing as they say.

Are your kids old enough to have a discussion with? Ask them how their dad was with them and if they enjoyed themselves.

It may be as he is a trigger for you so you are to him and like you say once you weren't there he was fine.

The best course for all of you is for him to be a stable and loving parent. Unless you believe that you or the kids are in danger then one encounter will not hold that much weight. If the next time he comes to collect them he behaves the same way then he is setting a pattern as opposed to being able to argue that it was a one off.

As I said before if he does it again then don't let the kids go with him. Tell him that his behaviour isn't healthy for the kids and that he needs to prove that he is on his meds and stable.

Get your attorney involved but open up a dialogue with him. Explain the impact that his behaviour has on the kids and how you want them to see their dad but don't think it is healthy for them to have to deal with him when he is unstable.

Maybe through the courts making him have supervised visits and discussing why his behaviour is a problem he will go back on his meds and try to change.

I wish you luck.

[momtara]

Talking to him is an idea... .

They are under 5 so can't really tell me if anything went wrong.  They look happy enough.

[enlighten me]

Children at that age aren't very good at hiding things so if they've come back happy then you should feel more at ease. My boys where 9 and 7 when my ex wife left me. I could tell if things where wrong by the way they acted and they would stop half way through a sentence before disclosing something their mum had told them not to tell me. You know your kids so you will pick up on anything that's concerning them before they even tell you.

[ForeverDad]

My son was almost 4 when we separated, she took him to the hospital, also hosting a regional child abuse center as well, and despite her prepping him, he never really recited her allegations or "suspicions" ("My son told me... ." until he was 6 years old.  She g=had just raged at our pediatrician's staff and had been 'fired'.  Probably when she got the "withdrawal of services" letter - she was custodial parent in the temporary order during the two year divorce - she then had to figure out how to (again) try to make me look worse than her.  So he took him to the hospital and she finally got him to recite her claim that I had become enraged at him and beat him on his shins of all places.   The nurse who interviewed him said they appeared to be normal bruises for a very active boy which he clearly was but since he said it therefore the matter was reported to CPS.  Later he told me he didn't know how he got them but then said it must have been when he was on the monkey bars.  With his mother.  CPS interviewed him at what they considered a neutral location - his kindergarten school.  They called me in but after I explained what I knew, even playing a couple recordings where son was trying to show me his bruise and saying he wasn't sure how he got it, they told me they just wanted to hear my side.  The case was closed.

So I pondered how to address it with him.  I found out he didn't realize he had lied.  (I suspect many children influenced by acting-out disordered parents tend to be a bit slow to make progress with observations and conclusions.)  So I found a children's book that dealt with the issue of honesty.  It was out of print, so I bought a used copy.  It was a Clifford the Big Red Dog book:  T-Bone Tells the Truth.  You could see the light bulb going off in his head as we read it and discussed it together.

Another children's book that my son absolutely loved, he laughed so hard snot came out his nose, What Dads Can't Do by Douglas Wood.  Don't worry, you mothers reading this, there's also a book for moms too, What Moms Can't Do.

[david]

I had to learn how to detach emotionally. It was difficult and the best thing that helped me was LC and only through email. I found it really difficult to not get "confused" when I was physically near ex in the beginning. She had a way to run circles around me until I wasn't sure what I was thinking. Having minimal physical contact helped me a lot. Exchanges became very rigid and distant. I didn't go near her and stayed in my car. She used to walk up to my car and I would open the window a few inches. I said little. Once she actually stood in front of my car so I couldn't drive away. I sat there with the kids in the car until she moved. That was a long 5 minutes. I watched the clock on my radio. I talked to the kids and they wanted to know why mom was doing that. I said I really didn't know and started talking about something else. She finally stepped away from the car and I drove away. There is no rational reason for her behavior and I don't look for it anymore.

I also view ex as a child and it is my responsibility as an adult to make and enforce boundaries. That is a mindset. It takes time to learn. If my ex did what your ex did now I would not let the kids go with her. However, seven years ago I would not have been as clear headed as to what I should do. It does take time.

If there is a next time you know what to do since you are thinking it through. Follow that. There probably will be more yelling but if you call the police you will be letting him know that kind of behavior is unacceptable. Since the kids came home safe I don't think going to court would be of any use. Telling the judge what concerned you, but you let them go anyway, and they came home safe will not convince a judge to change anything.

[momtara]

Yeah, I guess I shouldn't have let them go.  Hindsight is 20/20.  However, he was still verbally abusive to them and if he really is off his meds, that is a change in circumstance as well.  He was at least on antidepressants for the last year.  So a judge may be swayed by that, maybe.

I am thinking a lawyer letter may just at least force him to back down a little on the harassment. 

He is impossible to coparent with.  He is now emailing me to cancel their doctors' appointments.  Ugh.  Courts can't do much about a parent who just makes things really really difficult.

[momtara]

I just had a quick consultation with a new lawyer.  He said half the cases he deals with, the person is suffering from depression.  He said I married the guy, have to live with him and the things he says.  He said if he's not REALLY causing them danger, and he's not on drugs or alcohol, the courts in my county don't have time for my story.  I have heard this before, but I don't want to make excuses.  It's my job to protect the kids.

I guess my fear is that they will get older and exH will get worse and I will wish I didn't do more when I had the chance to do so.  I think I might even get legal decision making if I tried.  But I guess for now I shall wait.  I do have majority custody.  I worry about things like - what if my son needs counseling in high school and my exH says no, and I wish I had done more earlier to get decision making?  In the end I guess I can still make the decision. 

I told the guy how my ex canceled my kids' appointments because he was angry at me.  He said, "Welcome to divorce."

It just flabbergasts me that people are allowed to act this way in society.  It wouldn't dawn on me, especially after looking at my daughter's sweet face.  She puts a blanket on her teddy bear at night and says "I'm ok!" if she falls, so I won't worry.  How can anyone act cruel in that situation?

Another thing I worry about:  What if one of the kids gets older and sides with him?  One never knows, I guess.

[enlighten me]

Hi Momtara

Im afraid all you can do is record his behaviour and communications to build up a picture. The more evidence you have the stronger your case will be.

One thing with divorce is that people on both sides do and say things to discredit the other party. Courts are aware of this so they probably look at everything with a pinch of salt. This doesn't help when the accusations are genuine though. The more you can prove he is not behaving properly the less they will think that it is just sour grapes on your behalf.

As it stands your children have been returned unharmed and not showing any signs of stress. So for the time being you can relax as it is probably the contact with you that triggers him.

As for your children taking his side this is a different battle. All I can say is by being the bigger person in this they will see the truth. NEVER say anything to undermine your ex in front of them. NEVER change plans for him to have them to suit your own needs. By being honest and open with them and not saying or doing anything that their dad can moan to them about you they will see the truth. Whatever he tries to convince them of will have no foundation so they will be less likely to believe him. His actions will betray him just as my ex wifes did her. She tried to convince my sons that I didn't want them on particular weekends when she had cancelled and refused me access. She said things about me to them that they found out weren't true. She had them keep secrets from me which made them feel torn whereas I was always open and honest with them.

I wish you luck and hope this comes to a satisfactory conclusion for you.

EM

[livednlearned]

What is the condition or diagnosis that your ex is being medicated for?

[david]

I think you might want to take a slightly different approach. If ex was on his meds as prescribed and he behaved the same way would it make a difference. The simple answer is no.                The courts probable don't care if he is taking his meds or not as long as he doesn't appear to be a threat to the children. Saying no when he behaves that way regardless of his meds is what the courts will look at. It's not easy in the beginning but setting that boundary will make you stronger and thereby help the kids. They will see your actions and that will sink in. You may never see the results clearly but you are showing them that boundaries are important and behaviors have consequences.                                                                                                                        I realize this is very easy to say and much more difficult to do consistently. Trying to maintain your composure in front of such a hostile environment is not easy. It takes practice. The more I learned to make boundaries for myself in relation to my ex the better my situation got and by default the better our kids situation became. It's not easy to see that in the beginning and if I could go back in time that is something I would have done much sooner.

[momtara]

Saying no to visitation, or no to stuff in general?

Livedandlearned, he is being treated for bipolar.  He has told me it was PTSD and OCD, but that's not totally true.  He was never treated for anything before I left him.

[david]

Saying no to that single incident.

He comes to pick kids up and starts raging. You simply keep the kids in your house and tell him he needs to leave and calm down. If he does not you or him calls the police. When they show up you calmly explain your concern. If he is still agitated the police will see it and should take care of the rest. If he can calm himself down that is a positive. It may take a few times but he will learn the boundary that you have instituted. This is a a very simple explanation just to show the basic steps.

Talk to your T about the best way to handle this. He/she will probably know better for your situation.

[ForeverDad]

I had a voice recorder running during exchanges and other contact.  It was to protect myself and establish the facts of what happened.  (So of course I did not return curses to her when she was cursing me out.  I was the perfect gentleman and that even infuriated her more.)  To me she would rant and rage but every time police were involved she morphed into a "he's blocking my child exchange" victim.  As an example of times she brought the police to my home, to her it didn't matter that she hadn't shown up at the specified exchange location but was elsewhere.  I was the bad guy and she was the poor mother only wanting her child.  They saw the Mask of Seeming Normalcy, I saw the raw unfiltered her.

[david]

Recording the rage is a good idea. If the police get involved it is simply he said/she said without it. With the recording it is he said/what was actually said. That sets a precedent for the police.

Back in 2007 ex called the police in our township many times. I knew every officer by first name. Some got to see ex at her worst and that was told to the others. Over time she lost all credibility with the police. The still had to show up when she called but I was no longer assumed the guilty party.

Ex moved to another township and started the same bs. I forgot how I had to prove myself and that led to ex getting me into trouble.

I now have a video and an audio recorder with me at all times. There is a back to school night tonight. The audio recorder wil be on and in my pocket the entire time. I can download it on my computer later if I think it is needed. I will also have my small video recorder in my pocket just in case. I wear cargo pants in these situations to carry my gear. 

[momtara]

I got the last rage on tape and it's pretty clear.  Thing is, you guys needed it to protect yourselves from your ex wives' accusations.  It was a defensive move against false claims.  I already have custody most of the time, except every other Saturday to Sunday.   So my move would be a proactive move to further reduce his time or powers.   I either have to do something, or just let things go on.  The idea of standing up to him is fine, telling him not to rage at me at pickups.  The bigger question is - if I know he is already violating an agreement we just signed - should I try to get him back under supervised visitation.  What some are saying is that I just have to keep monitoring, which I will.  But if he breaks an agreement I wonder if I can arbitrarily just withhold the kids.  It's hard to say.  It just frustrates me that he gets to act like this, but also like some have said above, I have to not let it get to me.  I just wish his T knew how he really acted.  People with BPD have gotten so skilled in lying that they tell you the opposite of the truth and you buy it.  I'm sure his therapists are buying it.