Any BPD relationship success stories?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Does anyone here know of a BPDex maintaining a healthy relationship, at some point, while in therapy?

[Harlygirl]

Does anyone here know of a BPDex maintaining a healthy relationship, at some point, while in therapy?

[Mr Hollande]

Have a read on the "Staying" board and see what you think.

[Harlygirl]

Thank you... .Will do 

[Rise]

This is the tough thing about looking for success stories on message boards like this. If things are going well, there's not really a need to be seeking help. We only get to see the bad side of things. That being said, everything I've read indicates there are very successful treatments for those that seek them out and are willing to do the work. The problem is that it's completely on the person with BPD to do the hard work of getting better.

[Blimblam]

Yea the success stories don't end up on these boards. I think the majority of people with BPD are undiagnosed. 

[BorisAcusio]

Yea the success stories don't end up on these boards. I think the majority of people with BPD are undiagnosed. 

Even with therapy, it takes years of dedicated work and there is a great deal of pain along the road. Why don't they end up here at some stage?

[Infern0]

As stated the issue is that THEY need to seek help and COMMIT to it. Mine was going to "therapy" I don't know if it was for BPD or not,  she never said. She suddenly stopped going through and told me "they don't know what's wrong with me". Well if she was being honest with them they would have diagnosed her pretty quick because it didn't take me long once I started trying to figure it out


That's the problem though,  mine only went into T after she burned out her last triangle and attempted suicide. I sadly may have had a part to play in her leaving because she started thinking she was ok after meeting me and I didn't really understand so I was like ok. I just thought she had depression. I was really ignorant.

[Blimblam]

I don't know how many success stories there are but a lot of folks don't give away much of themselves in their "relationships".  Also just statistically there is way more repationships with pwBPD than there are members on these boards. Most guys I know my ex got with just used her they didn't attache. There really is something special about them though. Most guys I know don't really fall In love with women they view them as conquests.

[trappedinlove]

My uBPDxso had a successful relationship that lasted 10 years.

She was in therapy and medications for some of the time but I don't think it was the key to the r/s success.

That said, I can't describe it as healthy the way I and probably you perceive it.

Her partner suffered from PTSD himself and their two pathologies worked well together as he could understand and accept her quirks and vice-verse,

I was a third corner to this triangle and heard a lot of intimate details about their relationship and it quite shocked me.

I filled so many emotional needs for her that weren't fulfilled by her partner (not necessarily sex by the way) and their relationship seemed so dull to me.

It's important to say that she didn't paint him black at all.  She liked him and their relationship the way it was.  She liked the distance. She liked him giving her so much space to be herself, doing her stuff while he does his.  She has her friends, he got his (very few).  After years of being a couple closed and isolated from the world, she opened up to the world while he was ok saying home alone but not lonely.

Then, before I knew she has BPD and what BPD is, I was convinced he's not right for her and I couldn't figure out what keeps her with him but it turned out that counter-intuitively the distant relationship they had, with the awkward and quite cold emotional aspects worked best for them and probably prevented emotional dysregulation.

As she went through a big change via our r/s her feelings to her partner actually intensified and they went through a "second honeymoon" phase (I was really devastated at his point), she had a (false) pregnancy after years of trying (with her being very ambivalent about it), and it seemed like their relationship is becoming healthy.  He even started to make changes on his side, being more open socially, going out and do things with her and so on.

But then the r/s wasn't sustainable anymore and everything blew up. He broke up with her and all hell broke loose.

[Rise]

Even with therapy, it takes years of dedicated work and there is a great deal of pain along the road. Why don't they end up here at some stage?

I suspect they do. It's just that though: A stage. Once things get better, there's not a whole lot of reason to keep posting on here. It's unfortunately the flaw with the leaving boards as well. Most of the people on here are in the middle of something really painful and traumatic, because once we heal, it's a lot less important to keep posting. That doesn't mean no one ever recovers from the pain. It just means that most of us don't need what the boards provide anymore once we've healed. I admittedly have not spent much time on the staying boards, but I do believe that there's links somewhere there to success stories.

[Rise]

As stated the issue is that THEY need to seek help and COMMIT to it. Mine was going to "therapy" I don't know if it was for BPD or not,  she never said. She suddenly stopped going through and told me "they don't know what's wrong with me". Well if she was being honest with them they would have diagnosed her pretty quick because it didn't take me long once I started trying to figure it out


That's the problem though,  mine only went into T after she burned out her last triangle and attempted suicide. I sadly may have had a part to play in her leaving because she started thinking she was ok after meeting me and I didn't really understand so I was like ok. I just thought she had depression. I was really ignorant.

You're absolutely right, it's on them. But it's the same though with anyone. A lot of "normal" people get into therapy expecting the wrong thing, or are unwilling to do the actual work, and then claim therapy wasn't working. Therapy doesn't fix anyone. It's a tool for us to fix ourselves. If you don't want to do the hard parts, therapy is just talking to a stranger.

And Inferno, you played no part in what she did. If she were being honest with herself she would have understood that she wasn't okay. If anything, you were an excuse for her to not have to do the work she needed to do to get better. None of that is on you, even if you didn't know what was wrong with her.

[Mr Hollande]

I'm trying to imagine being a BPD sufferer with years of mistreating, betraying, using and abusing those near and dear and then one day becoming a so called normal human being with a so called normal way of relating to and understanding other peoples feelings. I'm trying to imagine how anyone who'd gone from so called crazy to so called normal would or could cope with the full understanding of the pain and devastation they have caused to good people who loved and trusted them. How would anyone live with that? Is that even possible? And how does that fit in with any so called success story?

[Rise]

I'm trying to imagine being a BPD sufferer with years of mistreating, betraying, using and abusing those near and dear and then one day becoming a so called normal human being with a so called normal way of relating to and understanding other peoples feelings. I'm trying to imagine how anyone who'd gone from so called crazy to so called normal would or could cope with the full understanding of the pain and devastation they have caused to good people who loved and trusted them. How would anyone live with that? Is that even possible? And how does that fit in with any so called success story?

Not having BPD myself, I can't directly speak to how they would handle it, but I would guess it's similar to how addicts have to face down all the damage they've done. Having known addicts, I can say it's not easy, and one of the big hurdles they face in recovery.

[Infern0]

My uBPDxso had a successful relationship that lasted 10 years.

She was in therapy and medications for some of the time but I don't think it was the key to the r/s success.

That said, I can't describe it as healthy the way I and probably you perceive it.

Her partner suffered from PTSD himself and their two pathologies worked well together as he could understand and accept her quirks and vice-verse,

I was a third corner to this triangle and heard a lot of intimate details about their relationship and it quite shocked me.

I filled so many emotional needs for her that weren't fulfilled by her partner (not necessarily sex by the way) and their relationship seemed so dull to me.

It's important to say that she didn't paint him black at all.  She liked him and their relationship the way it was.  She liked the distance. She liked him giving her so much space to be herself, doing her stuff while he does his.  She has her friends, he got his (very few).  After years of being a couple closed and isolated from the world, she opened up to the world while he was ok saying home alone but not lonely.

Then, before I knew she has BPD and what BPD is, I was convinced he's not right for her and I couldn't figure out what keeps her with him but it turned out that counter-intuitively the distant relationship they had, with the awkward and quite cold emotional aspects worked best for them and probably prevented emotional dysregulation.

As she went through a big change via our r/s her feelings to her partner actually intensified and they went through a "second honeymoon" phase (I was really devastated at his point), she had a (false) pregnancy after years of trying (with her being very ambivalent about it), and it seemed like their relationship is becoming healthy.  He even started to make changes on his side, being more open socially, going out and do things with her and so on.

But then the r/s wasn't sustainable anymore and everything blew up. He broke up with her and all hell broke loose.

Not trying to be an ass but I wouldn't classify any of that as "successful" more like a decade of hell.

The "success" stories out there are AT BEST stories of someone who is "happy" to basically be a carer and put the BPD first for everything and waste themselves in the process and just be accepting of that.  It's not fulfilling at all in my mind and I'd say the people in these relationships who KNOW and understand BPD have got some serious issues of their own.

I'm not even sure it's ethically correct to knowingly attempt a relationship with someone who has the emotional maturity of a 3 year old and isn't cognitively aware enough to make a rational decision if they want to be with someone.

In my mind I could never go there again,  not for a one night stand or anything,  I'd feel like a pervert. I don't mean to judge others but that's my opinion.

Would I accept a friendship or mentor type role? Well I'd consider it,  but I don't think I'd be able to do it in all honesty because I'll always have this unhealthy love for her which I know is morally wrong and makes me feel sick.

[drummerboy]

My ex's ex (guy before me) who I assume she has gone back to is probably as close to a perfect partner for a BPD as you can get. Chronically low self esteem, thinks he's very lucky that ANY woman would want to be with him so he put up with her crap for two years. She doesn't even like him. I asked her once "why did you hook up with him if he is so unappealing to you" her reply. "He was really persistent" LOL They'll probably be together forever, not sure how stimulating that relationship will be though!

Totally agree with Trappedinlove. There is an ethical dimension to being with an emotionally retarded person. If my ex ever recycled me I could play along knowing what I know now, I could do the manipulating knowing exactly what a BPD needs and hates. I could easily make it a "friends with benefits" relationship (she suggested this when we separated) but that is not the sort of person I am. If I'm with someone I want to love completely, without reservation, without playing games.

[trappedinlove]

My uBPDxso had a successful relationship that lasted 10 years.

She was in therapy and medications for some of the time but I don't think it was the key to the r/s success.

That said, I can't describe it as healthy the way I and probably you perceive it.

Her partner suffered from PTSD himself and their two pathologies worked well together as he could understand and accept her quirks and vice-verse,

I was a third corner to this triangle and heard a lot of intimate details about their relationship and it quite shocked me.

I filled so many emotional needs for her that weren't fulfilled by her partner (not necessarily sex by the way) and their relationship seemed so dull to me.

It's important to say that she didn't paint him black at all.  She liked him and their relationship the way it was.  She liked the distance. She liked him giving her so much space to be herself, doing her stuff while he does his.  She has her friends, he got his (very few).  After years of being a couple closed and isolated from the world, she opened up to the world while he was ok saying home alone but not lonely.

Then, before I knew she has BPD and what BPD is, I was convinced he's not right for her and I couldn't figure out what keeps her with him but it turned out that counter-intuitively the distant relationship they had, with the awkward and quite cold emotional aspects worked best for them and probably prevented emotional dysregulation.

As she went through a big change via our r/s her feelings to her partner actually intensified and they went through a "second honeymoon" phase (I was really devastated at his point), she had a (false) pregnancy after years of trying (with her being very ambivalent about it), and it seemed like their relationship is becoming healthy.  He even started to make changes on his side, being more open socially, going out and do things with her and so on.

But then the r/s wasn't sustainable anymore and everything blew up. He broke up with her and all hell broke loose.

Not trying to be an ass but I wouldn't classify any of that as "successful" more like a decade of hell.

You can't judge 'em until you've stood in their shoes.

In the chaos of a BPD mind having a stable relationship for ten years is quite an achievement.

Looking at their r/s from the outside it didn't seem like hell.  It was definitely odd but it didn't seem abusive or anything.

The "success" stories out there are AT BEST stories of someone who is "happy" to basically be a carer and put the BPD first for everything and waste themselves in the process and just be accepting of that.  It's not fulfilling at all in my mind and I'd say the people in these relationships who KNOW and understand BPD have got some serious issues of their own.

I'm not even sure it's ethically correct to knowingly attempt a relationship with someone who has the emotional maturity of a 3 year old and isn't cognitively aware enough to make a rational decision if they want to be with someone.

In my mind I could never go there again,  not for a one night stand or anything,  I'd feel like a pervert. I don't mean to judge others but that's my opinion.

Would I accept a friendship or mentor type role? Well I'd consider it,  but I don't think I'd be able to do it in all honesty because I'll always have this unhealthy love for her which I know is morally wrong and makes me feel sick.

Infern0, my perspective is different than most others on this board.

My D18 is diagnosed with Borderline traits.  She is high functioning and although her symptoms are not severe to a point of a full disorder, they tend to worsen, naturally,  when stressed and triggered, and she does have difficulties in her relationships, both in the family and with romantic relationships.

She deserves mutual love like any other person and to be in a healthy relationship with someone that can accept her as a whole and contain her ups and downs.

Saying all BPDs have "the emotional maturity of a 3 year old" and aren't "cognitively aware enough to make a rational decision if they want to be with someone" is an unfair generalization.

You and many others on this board were hurt by partners suffering form BPD and choosing not be in a relationship with a pwBPD because you couldn't handle it is perfectly legit but we should not go to the extent of dehumanization.

[BorisAcusio]

My uBPDxso had a successful relationship that lasted 10 years.

She was in therapy and medications for some of the time but I don't think it was the key to the r/s success.

That said, I can't describe it as healthy the way I and probably you perceive it.

Her partner suffered from PTSD himself and their two pathologies worked well together as he could understand and accept her quirks and vice-verse,

I was a third corner to this triangle and heard a lot of intimate details about their relationship and it quite shocked me.

I filled so many emotional needs for her that weren't fulfilled by her partner (not necessarily sex by the way) and their relationship seemed so dull to me.

It's important to say that she didn't paint him black at all.  She liked him and their relationship the way it was.  She liked the distance. She liked him giving her so much space to be herself, doing her stuff while he does his.  She has her friends, he got his (very few).  After years of being a couple closed and isolated from the world, she opened up to the world while he was ok saying home alone but not lonely.

Then, before I knew she has BPD and what BPD is, I was convinced he's not right for her and I couldn't figure out what keeps her with him but it turned out that counter-intuitively the distant relationship they had, with the awkward and quite cold emotional aspects worked best for them and probably prevented emotional dysregulation.

As she went through a big change via our r/s her feelings to her partner actually intensified and they went through a "second honeymoon" phase (I was really devastated at his point), she had a (false) pregnancy after years of trying (with her being very ambivalent about it), and it seemed like their relationship is becoming healthy.  He even started to make changes on his side, being more open socially, going out and do things with her and so on.

But then the r/s wasn't sustainable anymore and everything blew up. He broke up with her and all hell broke loose.

Not trying to be an ass but I wouldn't classify any of that as "successful" more like a decade of hell.

You can't judge 'em until you've stood in their shoes.

In the chaos of a BPD mind having a stable relationship for ten years is quite an achievement.

Looking at their r/s from the outside it didn't seem like hell.  It was definitely odd but it didn't seem abusive or anything.

The "success" stories out there are AT BEST stories of someone who is "happy" to basically be a carer and put the BPD first for everything and waste themselves in the process and just be accepting of that.  It's not fulfilling at all in my mind and I'd say the people in these relationships who KNOW and understand BPD have got some serious issues of their own.

I'm not even sure it's ethically correct to knowingly attempt a relationship with someone who has the emotional maturity of a 3 year old and isn't cognitively aware enough to make a rational decision if they want to be with someone.

In my mind I could never go there again,  not for a one night stand or anything,  I'd feel like a pervert. I don't mean to judge others but that's my opinion.

Would I accept a friendship or mentor type role? Well I'd consider it,  but I don't think I'd be able to do it in all honesty because I'll always have this unhealthy love for her which I know is morally wrong and makes me feel sick.

Infern0, my perspective is different than most others on this board.

My D18 is diagnosed with Borderline traits.  She is high functioning and although her symptoms are not severe to a point of a full disorder, they tend to worsen, naturally,  when stressed and triggered, and she does have difficulties in her relationships, both in the family and with romantic relationships.

She deserves mutual love like any other person and to be in a healthy relationship with someone that can accept her as a whole and contain her ups and downs.

Saying all BPDs have "the emotional maturity of a 3 year old" and aren't "cognitively aware enough to make a rational decision if they want to be with someone" is an unfair generalization.

You and many others on this board were hurt by partners suffering form BPD and choosing not be in a relationship with a pwBPD because you couldn't handle it is perfectly legit but we should not go to the extent of dehumanization.

Well, your staindpoint is perfectly understandable as every mother on this planet want her daughter succeed in life. Borderline traits are not equal to a full blown diagnosis. There is a general consesus among professionals that BPD is developed at preodeipal stage, thus in many aspects of life, especially in interpersional relationships, they DO have an emotional maturity of a 3 year old.

[Mr Hollande]

You can't judge 'em until you've stood in their shoes.

I've been under the shoes of two of them. It wasn't a good place to be and I find it hard to forgive. I'm sorry that your daughter suffers from this. I can't even begin to imagine the hardships you face and I sincerely hope it works out for you and your family. But, this is the leaving board. It's made up of people coming from a different reality than yours. Your perspective is bound to be different from ours.

She deserves mutual love like any other person

I don't dispute that this is true for your daughter but it isn't true for my ex gf. I gave her all the love I had. More than I ever thought I was capable of and she threw it away. She even giggled as she took a dump on those 5 years of our life together. She stomped it into the muddy ground as she did a deranged rain dance all over it while barking at the moon with glee. From my perspective, and that is no reference to your daughter, she does not deserve love. The love I gave to her has been well and truly forfeited.

[Skip]

Well, your standpoint is perfectly understandable as every mother on this planet want her daughter succeed in life. Borderline traits are not equal to a full blown diagnosis. There is a general consensus among professionals that BPD is developed at preodeipal stage, thus in many aspects of life, especially in interpersonal relationships, they DO have an emotional maturity of a 3 year old.

An interesting question is who's viewpoint is more skewed from center - a recently failed love interest (many with codependent traits) or a mother's?

I work on all the boards and the dynamic and culture are very different.  If I generalize about the pwBPD, the pwBPD discussed on the Parenting board are, mostly diagnosed and more severe where as the pwBPD discussed on the Leaving board are, on average, more likely to have traits.

So why is so much more hopeless sounding here (Leaving)? Why is the disorder seen as more severe?  

The answers might lie in the dynamics of a codependent relationship and the dynamics of an enabler.

Codependent enablers tend to put all the relationship failing on the other person.  There can also be a lot of "self-pity" and a lot of "guilting" as enablers get wrapped up their own feelings of injustice.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships

Does anyone here know of a BPDex maintaining a healthy relationship, at some point, while in therapy?

There are ex-partners that have gone on to have productive relationships. There are ex that continued to enter broken relationships.  There are members that have gone on to have productive relationships. There are members that continued to enter broken relationships.

[rosannadanna]

Great discussion.  I just read “Mars and Venus on a Date” and the author said that the leaver feels guilt and the one left feels betrayal.  He talks about having to resolve this to have an “open heart” and that will bring the most success to future dating.  I am far from having an open heart, but I am trying to be hopeful about one day having a healthy relationship.  I am trying to get back in the game, but it’s slow-going after the BPD relationship.

Skip, I think most on Leaving have been left, which means that most of us feel betrayed.  And I agree with you that most of us are codependent, so we are probably feeling shocked and angry that our PBD would no longer need our caretaking and actually leave.  A child with BPD will always need caretaking, so a parent is not going to feel what someone who was left will feel.

I am nine months out and last month I looked at his facebook page.  He is in a relationship with someone.  I needed to see that b/c up to that point, I was holding him in my mind as “my BPD” and when I saw that he is in a relationship, I was forced to move along in the grieving process.  I have been feeling particularly nostalgic lately, which has gotten me dissecting what that actually means in my personal growth.  I am feeling jealous of this new woman b/c she perhaps is getting a “better version” of him.  He is dx’ed, and has been in and out of therapy for last 7ish years.  He is very insightful about the illness, but it fairly attached to his waif persona and lives his life as such.  So even if he has only made incremental changes and is still mostly a waif, I am still feeling jealous that he is no longer “my waif”.  

I was intermittently unhappy and happy in the relationship, but I felt loved b/c I felt needed.  I am now trying to be a person that doesn’t equate someone needing me to love and that feels weird.  I miss loving someone and feeling love, but I guess I have to figure out a different version of love before I am ready to have a healthy R/S.

Sorry to go a little off topic.  But I appreciate the thread b/c I was able to dig a little deeper into that part of me that secretly desires to be back with my dude and be one of those “success stories”.

[BorisAcusio]

Well, your standpoint is perfectly understandable as every mother on this planet want her daughter succeed in life. Borderline traits are not equal to a full blown diagnosis. There is a general consensus among professionals that BPD is developed at preodeipal stage, thus in many aspects of life, especially in interpersonal relationships, they DO have an emotional maturity of a 3 year old.

An interesting question is who's viewpoint is more skewed from center - a recently failed love interest (many with codependent traits) or a mother's?

Well, if you ask me, neither of them. A mother will always love their children unconditionally, while the recently betrayed partner often demonize the pwBPD.

What we should stick to is more than 40 years of clinical experience on the subject, backed up with empirical studies. I remember that until the new DSM was published, we had hot debates about whether they have impaired emphatic capacity. Some member even called that dehumanization.  

[Skip]

Skip, I think most on Leaving have been left, which means that most of us feel betrayed.  And I agree with you that most of us are codependent, so we are probably feeling shocked and angry that our PBD would no longer need our caretaking and actually leave.

Yes, betrayal trauma.

What we should stick to is more than 40 years of clinical experience on the subject, empirical studies.

Yes, but with the caveat of seeking to understand - not create a scientific justification for how we feel.  

For example, your previous post implies that the majority of our ex-partners have the emotional maturity of a three year old.  This is not the point or a reasonable conclusion to be drawn from pre-oedipal psychopathology theory regarding borderline syndromes, schizoid phenomena or narcissistic character disorders.  And it surely doesn't account for the spectrum of severity of the disorder we, as a group, are mostly facing on the Leaving Board, which is subclinical.

Too often to we take normal psychology principals and make them BPD pathologies because we didn't finish reading the chapter.    We all idealize and triangulate, these behaviors are not dysfunction, its more about the degree.  I often read about lack of empathy in threads where we are clearly lacking empathy - understanding the other persons viewpoint.

Clearly, most of the ex-relationship partners had bad relationship skills - and so did we.  Is the reality anything like the emotional vampire and its innocent prey narrative that kicks up from time to time?  No.  Many of these are all loaded relationship bonds and a better understanding relationship dynamics (and then the tendencies of the partner and ourselves) is what will save us going forward.

[Recooperating]

Very interesting point Skip!

There are a couple things I wonder... .

1) I as a non have a completely different r/s with my mother then I would ever have with a love interest. My mother also sees me differently as a romantic partner would see me.

My partner will see my day-to-day "flaws" as my mom may never notice and still sees me as perfect, since I am her child. Adding BPD to this equation wont change the differences in points of view. However... .What is true, my mothers pov or that of the partner.

I think both are, they are different r/s, and both have a different experience with me.

2) True, this is the leaving board, true that there are many "negative opinions" about our exBPDso. This also has to do with the stages of grief. Anger is one we vent here a lot. I am sure if you read a forum for PwBPD, they are just as angry at us for some reason.

3) Codependency... .I have codependency traits. And yes that was part of the dysfunctional dance. Relationships are a two way street, where one fails, two people are responsible. I can only speak from experience that I stayed to long. Had poor communication skills to deal with BPD traits. Got tangled up in fights, wasnt able to end the conflict in a healthy manner.

There is however something that bothers me... .I chose to leave my BPD cause I didnt help him, I made it worse. His P. told me not to take the abuse personal, let it go, I had to understand he was BPD! Still I dont know how that justify the physicall abuse?

I left, and I do hope he finds peace, love and hapiness. But I dont wish the bruises for his next gf.

Still I am healing from this r/s that ended 4 weeks ago. I am taking responsibilty for my part in this like many others on this board. Our opinions of pwBPD come from our wounds and maybe they are 50% self-inflicted. But the fact remains that my exBPD doesnt take the same responsibility. He just pit on his blinders and acts like none of it is his fault.

I am prejudice against pwBPD, from my own painfull experience. Its not the path for me or many others on the leaving board. We express our feelings, feelings are feelings and not necessarily the truth. But its my truth. I understand his truth is different as is the truth of his mother that has a tough time with him too, but stands by him no matter what.

A r/s with pwBPD is not for me. That doesnt mean its the same for others. But I am very angry, at him and at myself! But its my opinion that I dont wish the abusiveness I had to go through on anybody.

[Tater tot]

I was intermittently unhappy and happy in the relationship, but I felt loved b/c I felt needed.  I am now trying to be a person that doesn’t equate someone needing me to love and that feels weird.  I miss loving someone and feeling love, but I guess I have to figure out a different version of love before I am ready to have a healthy R/S.

Sorry to go a little off topic.  But I appreciate the thread b/c I was able to dig a little deeper into that part of me that secretly desires to be back with my dude and be one of those “success stories”.

I thought this was really insightful- as I too think I felt loved b/c I felt needed, which says a lot more about me than about him. I think i'm fortunate because I got out early, and didn't face much of the trauma at the hands of a pwBPD as others have seen. I think my ex was self aware enough of his issues, that he didn't want to "pull me down with him" so to speak, but he just accepts that that is who is he (prone to anger, distant emotionally the closer he gets to someone, unwilling to compromise, etc).

As a parent, there is unconditional love, but that doesn't mean that the pwBPD sees or experiences that. I don't think people with BPD feel they are worthy it from a parent or SO. In one of our last exchanges, I even said to my ex, I hope you find someone that loves all parts of you, unconditionally, and that you allow yourself to experience that. His response "yea good luck to me ever finding that".

[Blimblam]

I'm not really sure what would be considered clinical vs subclinical and even though my ex wasn't diagnosed she had 7 of the 9 traits.  She was a waif through and through. I often consider her to be more mild of a case in the style of handling her dysregulation but this only served to make her more cunning than a severe case of BPD that is my mother.  Oh well it is what it is. I still love the girl and always will.  Can't stand to he around the disorder though it is too sadistic.

[BorisAcusio]

Skip, I think most on Leaving have been left, which means that most of us feel betrayed.  And I agree with you that most of us are codependent, so we are probably feeling shocked and angry that our PBD would no longer need our caretaking and actually leave.

Yes, betrayal trauma.

What we should stick to is more than 40 years of clinical experience on the subject, empirical studies.

For example, your previous post implies that the majority of our ex-partners have the emotional maturity of a three year old.  This is not the point or a reasonable conclusion to be drawn from pre-oedipal psychopathology theory regarding borderline syndromes, schizoid phenomena or narcissistic character disorders.

Unfortunately it does. They stuck the pre-oedipal stage - paranoid-schizoid position - in emotional development which makes unable to function as responsible adults. It is covered in most literature, I'm quite sure that even the highly praised 2010 had posts about it.

[BacknthSaddle]

Clearly, most of the ex-relationship partners had bad relationship skills - and so did we.  Is the reality anything like the emotional vampire and its innocent prey narrative that kicks up from time to time?  No.  Many of these are all loaded relationship bonds and a better understanding relationship dynamics (and then the tendencies of the partner and ourselves) is what will save us going forward.

To me this is the most significant point emerging from this very significant thread.  Whether or not the majority of our ex-partners have the emotional maturity of a three-year-old is perhaps valuable in understanding our ex's social interactions generally but falls well short of creating understanding of why our relationships failed specifically.   Saying that it is "unethical" to be involved with such a person strikes me as an effort to rationalized stigmatization (one that I have adopted at points as well, I might add) and again removes from us the responsibility for understanding why WE, specifically, are in the positions we are in.  

Perhaps it is better to think not in terms of "severity," of "clinical and subclinical," but rather in terms of fluidity.  Otto Kernberg (in whom I know Boris is well-read) speaks of various styles of "personality organization" (neurotic, borderline, and psychotic).  People are in one of these three states the majority of the time but have the ability to move between them (which is to say, use immature/narcissistic defense mechanisms) when they are dysregulated. Most of our exs, whether or not they had BPD proper, became dysregulated more often than we were expecting, and used these defenses (projection, projective identification, splitting, primitive idealization) far more often than we were familiar with.  And so we are here.  

But, we are also here because we didn't immediately run for the hills when we recognized the vague outline of these tendencies, saw the "red flags" as it were.  And, for many of us (me certainly), that is because it is these tendencies specifically that made us feel needed, and thus which validated for us our own worth.  Of course, ultimately, our own sense of self-worth was destroyed by the same tendencies.  

It's important to remember though that different exs described on this board moved between levels of organization, got dysregulated, split, projected, etc more or less often and more or less easily than others.  Some may even have taken on both co-dependent roles in different relationships (as mine did, and as it sounds like trappedinlove's did as well).  As a result, generalizations about the people described here (as opposed to people with definite clinical BPD) are probably not terribly productive. What is productive, as Skip says, is understanding the dynamics of the specific relationship we were in and the way we played into those dynamics.  Then we can understand what we need to fix. And once it is fixed, these relationships won't be so appealing, and we will be detached.  

From the co-dependency link Skip posted: "Codependent enablers often lack in self-worth and define their worth through another's eyes, thoughts, or views of them. They need other people to validate them to feel okay about themselves and without this, they are unable to find their own worth identity.  For some, the codependent relationship will satisfy the need to feel competent and low self-esteem is boosted by comparing oneself to the dysfunctional partner."  This is most certainly true of me.  I don't even like my ex.  Truly.  Not because she is "manipulative" or "selfish" or anything like that, but simply because we have no common interests or values and are from different worlds.  So why do I care whether or not she finds me desirable?  See above.  If I can successfully address this, I really won't care anymore.  And that's where I'd like to be.  

[Caredverymuch]

My uBPDxso had a successful relationship that lasted 10 years.

She was in therapy and medications for some of the time but I don't think it was the key to the r/s success.

That said, I can't describe it as healthy the way I and probably you perceive it.

Her partner suffered from PTSD himself and their two pathologies worked well together as he could understand and accept her quirks and vice-verse,

I was a third corner to this triangle and heard a lot of intimate details about their relationship and it quite shocked me.

I filled so many emotional needs for her that weren't fulfilled by her partner (not necessarily sex by the way) and their relationship seemed so dull to me.

It's important to say that she didn't paint him black at all.  She liked him and their relationship the way it was.  She liked the distance. She liked him giving her so much space to be herself, doing her stuff while he does his.  She has her friends, he got his (very few).  After years of being a couple closed and isolated from the world, she opened up to the world while he was ok saying home alone but not lonely.

Then, before I knew she has BPD and what BPD is, I was convinced he's not right for her and I couldn't figure out what keeps her with him but it turned out that counter-intuitively the distant relationship they had, with the awkward and quite cold emotional aspects worked best for them and probably prevented emotional dysregulation.

As she went through a big change via our r/s her feelings to her partner actually intensified and they went through a "second honeymoon" phase (I was really devastated at his point), she had a (false) pregnancy after years of trying (with her being very ambivalent about it), and it seemed like their relationship is becoming healthy.  He even started to make changes on his side, being more open socially, going out and do things with her and so on.

But then the r/s wasn't sustainable anymore and everything blew up. He broke up with her and all hell broke loose.

This exemplifies, to me , why BPDs can most often only be " successful" with a NPD partner.  The emotional distance and lack of true intimacy on either partner keeps the stability, if you will, of not triggering the disorder.  Lots of emotional space, no desire for real love, only control and submission. I can see why these  type of toxic bond works best for a long term r/s.

My exBPD went back to his NPD ex and seems quite stable again. They too had what sounded to me like a very routine oriented situation. Almost like a parent child r/s. She controlled. He was petrified of her. And went back to that routine. Actually ran back.

But he has a replacement again after things stabilized. Classic BPD... .which is what I believe allows him to remain there. Filling up the emptiness. While keeping his punitive parent from abandoning him. I actually think hes been living that pattern for most of the r/s. 

So, IMOI, no. They do not have healthy r/s ever.

[myself]

They do not have healthy r/s ever.

Not even with themselves, which is most important here.

[Rifka]

Does anyone here know of a BPDex maintaining a healthy relationship, at some point, while in therapy?

I think a true success story would be us moving forward with our lives, leaving the exBPD, educating ourselves, healing ourselves, fixing ourselves, finding us healthy and in position to let somebody healthy in our live, start a healthy relationship, find happiness within ourselves, be happy and content with our new relationship, experience mutual love, kindness and respect from each other, and let time prove this will be our last intimate relationship, lacking deceit, lies, and so much stress. No roller coasters!

For me anyhow!

I can't believe that could truly happen with our exBPD unless we fall out of love with them completely, but why bother to be friends with somebody who put you through so much.

There are wonderful people everywhere without an evil agenda!

[Bak86]

I accept that but suggesting that the love some of us had our ex's was based on a hero complex is quite disgusting.

I guess I just don't see who is suggesting that.  I'm certainly not.  

I loved her and wanted to help her with her problems. I did it with the hope that they would go away so we could get on with our life together. I did not deserve to be treated like that. I did not deserve to be abandoned like that. She had no right to. I hate her for what she did and I always will. She'll come crawling back but there is no forgiveness for her here anymore and right now it's important for me that she understands that.

This is true of me as well, by in large.  The question I"ve been asking myself is: why, after it should have been clear pretty early on that I wouldn't be able to help her with her problems, did I continue trying?  

Here's an illustration: she told me at some point midway through the relationship that she had "PMDD (Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder."  She was not using this as a term to mean PMS; she's a mental health professional and knew what she was saying.  If you look up any literature on PMDD, it all says that a characteristic of the disorder is that relationships tend to be chaotic and are frequently destroyed by the partner with PMDD.  I know that when I saw this, I thought I would be able to overcome it.  Why did I think that?  I'm not satisfied with "because I loved her," because I have loved other people before and know that love is not enough to overcome all difficulties.  I don't think I wanted to be a "hero," per se, but I did overestimate my abilities and ignored my instincts.  

just had a quick read about pmdd(never heard of it). sounds pretty much the same as borderline actually... .

[BacknthSaddle]

It is, and in reality I think it just represents a pwBPD becoming more dysregulated and using more immature defenses in the two weeks prior to the cycle. In my efforts to detach I've come to realize that she displays BPD behaviors at all times, but that these were so pronounced pre-menstrually that I ignored them at other times. I used to challenge myself on why I believed that her during the "good two weeks" was the "real her" and why the rest of the time I convinced myself it "wasn't really her." I knew this was silly, but I went with it anyway, which was one of my many mistakes.

The point, again: regardless of the reasons, the disorders, what have you that are present, I cannot have a functional relationship with this human being. And that's the most important thing to recognize.

[Rise]

She's then one who deserves the hate, not me.

Mr Hollande,

I really hope you know that nobody here is trying to attack you. I know it's a subtle difference, but admitting our roles in our relationships isn't the same thing as accepting the blame. Nobody here is trying to blame you for how things turned out, or say that there's something terribly wrong with you. It doesn't mean we deserved what happened. Nobody deserves to have their heart broken. Admitting our faults isn't a bad thing. It's what helps us grow stronger. In fact it's a sign of strength. And it doesn't have anything to do with focusing negative feelings upon you or anyone else. I just want to say I'm sorry if you've in any way felt like someone was trying to make you feel bad. Sometimes we challenge each other, because we are trying to help each other grow and heal and become stronger individuals, but it's never meant to hurt.

People can have a really knee-jerk reaction to some terms. Lord knows my knee couldn't have jerked more the first time someone suggested I may have codependent issues with my ex. It took a while, but I realized there was some truth behind it. And you know what, it's not a bad thing. I mean it's not a good thing to be codependent, but it doesn't mean there's something inherently wrong with me. It just means I developed an unhealthy relationship dynamic with someone. That's it. I'm not a bad, or weak person because of it. I made poor choices that led to me developing an unhealthy attachment to the wrong person. It's the same thing with the "white knight" or "rescuer" complex that gets discussed. Wanting to save someone isn't a bad thing. And it doesn't make someone a bad person. It's just a mistake that gets made. And human beings make mistakes. Recognizing those mistakes doesn't mean there is something wrong with us. But in denying them, and the roles we played in our relationships, we doom ourselves to keep making the same mistakes.

As to the original question, I think a lot of the conflict this topic brings up is rooted in the term "successful". What, by it's very definition, is a successful relationship? How do you judge what is or is not a successful relationship? Is a relationship successful if it ends after 30 years of marriage and multiple children? How long does a relationship have to last before it's considered successful? This is the problem with trying to attach a label to a relationship. It's success is really solely based on the wants and needs of the people in the relationship. So what we may consider a failure, may be perfectly acceptable to someone else. I think maybe it's more important to examine what we consider a successful relationship, and consider the reasons why we haven't been able to find one ourselves.

[Rise]

The point, again: regardless of the reasons, the disorders, what have you that are present, I cannot have a functional relationship with this human being. And that's the most important thing to recognize.

This could not be any more right to me. Thanks Back.

[Dutched]

I'm trying to imagine being a BPD sufferer with years of mistreating, betraying, using and abusing those near and dear and then one day becoming a so called normal human being with a so called normal way of relating to and understanding other peoples feelings. I'm trying to imagine how anyone who'd gone from so called crazy to so called normal would or could cope with the full understanding of the pain and devastation they have caused to good people who loved and trusted them. How would anyone live with that? Is that even possible? And how does that fit in with any so called success story?

Referring to an old topic about therapy for pwBPD, referring to HFBPD.

From my point of view there is partially a core self. But logically how can there be a total core when a child between 2-5 (where the core is moulded) is not given the care/love to develop that core?

I've learned that therapy for BPD attempts to remove the false self masks and let the inner child, who is a good person, begin the painful process of healing. By all accounts this is extremely difficult work.

I'm not sure I agree with this.  From what I've read, for higher functioning BPD's the emphasis is simply on coping skills.  Trying to break down everything in an older higher functioning BPD would probably cause a psychotic break precisely because there is no inner child to help find a stable base.

The techniques you describe are for BPD's in a severe state and highly likely to kill themselves anyways.

A decent therapist would never try the above with a high functioning pwBPD, because it could easily cause the patient to commit suicide.  And there's very little data on high functioning pwBPD finding their true sense of self.   

A professional from my local Group would also agree with that. I attended that Group a 3-4 yrs. before the break-up and wanted to know possibilities for her “healing”(as I was unknown at that time). The answer was a bit disillusional. Offering therapy in which her coping skils would be better developed, nothing more a rebuilding a total self would break the person beyond repair.

But he gave the advise ( as exBPDw refused to get help) to learn skills myself to canalize her behaviour for the stability of my family.

It is not my intention to offend any of you as we all come here to support each other after our r/s caused us so much pain.

[Witchway]

You and many others on this board were hurt by partners suffering form BPD and choosing not be in a relationship with a pwBPD because you couldn't handle it is perfectly legit but we should not go to the extent of dehumanization.

I disagree with not being able to 'handle' it. Can't talk for anyone else but in my case it was self-preservation. I am not in a relationship because I was NOT going to put up with the physical and mental abuse, which is something no-one should have to be subject to. I won't even go into the Gaslighting, what I will use as an example is the fact my ex spiked my drink... .he drugged me. Which is, in fact, the dehumanisation of myself by him. It was used as a form of manipulation to further his own ends - pure and simple. He seriously crossed a line - a big f**k off line. Total absence of any form of respect for me, my health, my boundaries, my everything.

And yes... .I couldn't handle it - the psychological reprecussions to myself (never mind the potential of serious physical harm). However lets not forget - What he did IS illegal, and, if reported, charged and found guilty, carries a prison sentence. There is no 'get out of Prison card' because he's a pwBPD. It is not acceptable and that is why we have laws to protect innocent victims against this abuse. 

[trappedinlove]

You and many others on this board were hurt by partners suffering form BPD and choosing not be in a relationship with a pwBPD because you couldn't handle it is perfectly legit but we should not go to the extent of dehumanization.

I disagree with not being able to 'handle' it. Can't talk for anyone else but in my case it was self-preservation. I am not in a relationship because I was NOT going to put up with the physical and mental abuse, which is something no-one should have to be subject to. I won't even go into the Gaslighting, what I will use as an example is the fact my ex spiked my drink... .he drugged me. Which is, in fact, the dehumanisation of myself by him. It was used as a form of manipulation to further his own ends - pure and simple. He seriously crossed a line - a big f**k off line. Total absence of any form of respect for me, my health, my boundaries, my everything.

And yes... .I couldn't handle it - the psychological reprecussions to myself (never mind the potential of serious physical harm). However lets not forget - What he did IS illegal, and, if reported, charged and found guilty, carries a prison sentence. There is no 'get out of Prison card' because he's a pwBPD. It is not acceptable and that is why we have laws to protect innocent victims against this abuse.  

On the spectrum of BPD symptoms physical and mental abuse like you've been through are indeed brutally crossing the line and definitely must not be tolerated, no doubt about it.  My heart is with you for having to go through this and I completely agree that this behavior is unacceptable.

I'm talking about milder cases that demonstrate relationship dynamics that do oscillate but are not abusive and can be tolerated and managed especially when the pwBPD is not triggered.  I believe that in this case, with therapy, self-awareness, good communication, a lot of love, trust and compassion, a couple can get through the hard times and maintain a successful relationship.  But it takes two for tango and the pwBPD must assume responsibility for their actions and take care of themselves while being open and communicate with their partner so their dysregulated emotions can be heard, understood, and validated even when they are unjust and have more to do with the pwBPD's psyche and FOO than objective reality.

That said, I wouldn't bet my money on it after the r/s imploded, and that's more relevant here on the leaving board.  Although i believe this is possible I'm careful not to be trapped in wishful thinking and fantasize about reconciliation.

Radically accepting reality is acknowledging that the r/s did not work out and we need to go our own way and rebuild ourselves.  The opportunity to learn and do things better now is actually encouraging!

[trappedinlove]

One example of a pwBPD that is truly working hard on herself is a girl named Haven from this blog: www.downwardspiralintothevortex.com

I find it very insightful to get to see her point of view since she is very self-aware and not caught up in cliches.

On this particular subject of the possibility of a successful relationship with a BPD I would recommend reading this post:

www.downwardspiralintothevortex.com/2013/08/the-10-essential-limits-for.html

One quote that I find very important is the following one and I think it speaks for itself.

Two words: personal responsibility. These are two words that we as Borderlines don’t exercise nearly as often as we should… but we need to. Being emotionally volatile is not actually a justifiable excuse.

I’ve owned up to my bull___ and fortunately I’ve worked on my issues to the extent where I’m pretty much past all of the outbursts and out of control parts. It took time and a lot of inner reflection, self-awareness, and work but it’s completely possible. I am responsible for my actions and my emotions. Don’t get me wrong, I still have my limits, and everyone has periods of justifiable emotional expression, but there are ways to do this that are constructive and not harmful.

Relationships take two, so in so far as you can be responsive to (not responsible for) your partners needs and concerns, take on what you feel you can… Borderline and Non alike. This is not exclusive to either.

[Witchway]

Yes some aspects of his behaviour were on the extreme side, but... .it's still the same behaviour, whether mild or extreme - If that makes sense? And this is where I struggle.

With me he dysregulated when he couldn't push my boundaries. He didn't like boundaries full-stop and I'm also not one to walk on eggshells, and will question things, especially if they don't 'feel' right (don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing).

He was with the ex before me for three years, although he was adamant it was 3 months. It did feel like he somehow felt shameful about past relationships (that's another story/thread).  The ex before that was 10 years, so he was able to maintain a long term relationship. However he would talk about broken windows, broken doors, vandalised motorbikes, etc. All her doing not his. When he 'pushed' my buttons I'd try and talk about / discuss it. If he rised his voice or we it got to the point where there was no way through his 'reality' I would walk away (usually my head was saying eh!). He once told me that my reactions (or lack of aggression) scared him. He wasn't used to this.

He drugged me because I wouldn't relax my boundary of NOT recycling. This time I would not let a past (again extreme) unacceptable behaviour go. Did he want to seriously harm me? No I don't think so. I think he wanted make me vulnerable and open to suggest and re-engage. It's really sad because I did genuinely love the guy. But... .he will not help himself. It is easier to play the victim.


P.S. All kudos to Haven.