Year on, Year off parenting question

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My ex sent me an e-mail proposing we do year on and year off with the kids. S12, D10 and D8

Our parenting agreement spells out our time for the kids to be 50/50. We are officially divorced and have been for almost two years. (in Dec)

Kids go to school from my house and I take them to her house after school 2 and or 3 nights a week. Her house is 20 minutes away.

My question, Does this work?

Has anyone have experience in a setup like this?

Pros? Cons?

[slimmiller]

My ex sent me an e-mail proposing we do year on and year off with the kids. S12, D10 and D8

Our parenting agreement spells out our time for the kids to be 50/50. We are officially divorced and have been for almost two years. (in Dec)

Kids go to school from my house and I take them to her house after school 2 and or 3 nights a week. Her house is 20 minutes away.

My question, Does this work?

Has anyone have experience in a setup like this?

Pros? Cons?

[ForeverDad]

Background:  I've just completed (only time will tell if truly completed) 8 years in family court.  My ex started out with temporary custody and majority time.  This was during a 30 minute hearing where the magistrate had the pending case in another court listed in court paperwork.  Then-spouse had made death threats and was facing a trial.  During the 2 year divorce process both the court's social worker and the custody evaluator recommended I get more time (parenting investigation) and custody (custody evaluation).  I faced pressure to settle and so we started Shared Parenting and equal time in 2008.  Didn't work, ex was too entitled, controlling and obstructive, so I filed for custody.  I got it in 2009 but Guardian ad Litem (lawyer for child) wanted ex to get child support so she would behave better and so GAL opposed giving me the typical majority time.  That didn't work either so I filed for majority time and this time around the GAL agreed.  I got majority time during the school year only, we were to continue the equal time 2/2/5/5 schedule during the summer, ex got "one more try".

My issue:  Exchanges were a key opportunity where my ex would create conflict and obstruction.  Our equal time schedule was ex had Mon-Tue overnights, I had Wed-Thu overnights and we alternated 3-day weekends, four exchanges every two weeks.  I wanted to object to the new order and request alternate weeks (a 7/7 schedule) instead which would cut exchanges (and resulting conflict) in half.

Lawyer's response:  "NO, you don't want to give the court any reason to think that you're okay with long absences whereby your child is away from either parent longer, unless there is real basis to do so."

By the way, I recall asking my Custody Evaluator when my son was 5 years old near the end of the divorce for a 7/7 simpler schedule and he said he didn't feel the longer 7 days apart was appropriate until a child was 10 years old.  So... .imagine what he would have told you if you asked about alternating years!

So clearly I will emphatically state NO to your questions, a year is simply a too extended period of time for your child to grow apart from you and likely become alienated from you.  You ex would have an entire year to tell your children that you didn't care about them, didn't love them, etc.  Frankly, she will probably do it anyway in both subtle and not-so-subtle ways, but with a reasonably frequent exchange schedule you'll see the children frequently enough to remain a deeply involved father and keep things from getting too far out of hand.

Also, if you did alternate years you would fairly give her her year (I bet she wants to get the first year, right?  ) and then when your year started she would find innumerable excuses to get the children back during too much of your 'year', such as school and after-school activities she wanted to monitor, sleepovers at her house, extended stays with the children because she misses them so much, the kids are claimed not to want to come back to you, etc, etc.

Courts almost universally issue orders including alternate weekends.  (Some professions such as police, firefighters, paramedics, hospital staff, etc that must work many weekends are given special consideration for schedules that fit their work life.)  The remaining question is how the schedule will be in between those alternate weekends.  Basically you have two typical choices, a 7/7 schedule alternating entire weeks or a 2/2/5/5 schedule I've lived with for the past 6 years.

Depending on why she wants the change - maybe she doesn't like that you're so involved with school and end up with more than 50% of the parenting time? - you may want to consider alternating every two weeks?  But I would not suggest even that unless there was really good basis, wander too far from the time-tested schedules and you can create troubles for yourself, even end up in appeaser mode again.

I get the feeling that you're currently enjoying more than 50% time with the children, I would not want to rock that boat, it's a real positive for you and for the children.

It boils down to "WHY?"  Why does she want it?  What is the problem?  Is it conflict at exchanges?  Is it extreme distance?  Are you currently getting more that 50% time despite what the order says?  Or is she thinking that if she gets the first year then you'll be less likely to successfully get the second year for you?

Also, who is the Residential Parent for School Purposes?  If they go to school from your house, then it's you, right?  If you did alternate years then you might have to file with court annually to switch RP every year if you're in different schools or school districts.

This is likely time to practice your "NO" word, the perfect time to politely respond, "Thanks for asking but no, I think the current schedule is working for the children.  I don't want to change what works."  Beware of trying to explain or reason with her, it generally triggers negative overreactions, most of the ex-spouses described here have too much emotional baggage from the failed close relationship to actually listen to us reason or explain.

[allibaba]

Lawyer's response:  "NO, you don't want to give the court any reason to think that you're okay with long absences whereby your child is away from you longer."

So clearly I will emphatically state NO to your questions, a year is simply too extended period of time for your child to become alienated from you. 

Agree, agree, agree!

[slimmiller]

Thank You for your input!   

I think one of the biggest reasons she keeps bringing this up is because her latest bf is a foreign exchange student living in Boston for college (we are in Ohio) and I have heard rumors through the kids the he is moving to Califonria. This is creating a delima for her. He is mobile and is not putting down any roots and she will need to follow him if she wants to maintain the relationship.

One of the last face to face arguments we had was over the fact that she intends on reserving the right to maintain the 50/50 to which I told her I will not deprive her of her share of the time. Which she would then counter by, 'even if one of us moves'... .which is where I would not give her my blessing that I would be okay with that. She has not mentioned a long distance thing and I think she is waiting for me to agree and then she will tell me the whole story and try and hold me to my word. Very typical of her. She will expect me to keep my word while she will do what works for her.

She also mentioned she can not afford the chance of loosing the kids by going back to court. She lost her son (my ss14) to his dad because he was having problems getting along with his mother and also had problems in school but I suspect he plotted the whole thing. Hes somewhere on the PD spectrum as well. So her threatening me with that is pretty harmless and I honestly dont think she has half a chance in the eyes of the court.

The dissolution papers specificaly state that my address would be used for schooling purposes. I kept the house and bought her out. (She a full time student)

I honestly want the kids to have a relationship with their mother. I think it better if they do see her and see for themselves how she functions verusus me depriving them of her and being the bad guy.

As far as the amount of time we each get with the kids, its about equal. I see them every day but take them to her two or three days out of the week right after school and she has them over night and every other weekend and then brings them to school in the morning. Its a bit of driving for both of us but it works out pretty decent but like anything, the normalcy of it seems to wear on her.

I really think now that you mention what your lawyer said, the longer time away is probably bad in the eyes of the court even if in the long term it ends up being 50/50. I simply can not allow my children to be gone for a year at a time. They wont even know who I am in a sense. A year is a long time for a kid. She never did say if she wants them first year but would bet my salary that would be what she proposes. I have thought of asking her that question but to her that would mean Im considering it. If she left them with me the first year, it would look bad on her in the eyes of the court and would be in my favor because it would look like she is abandoning the kids. She is too cunning to allow that to happen 


My kids already put up a fuss about going to see their mom at times  and given the choice, they already voiced their desire to NOT go to a different school. I have to be honest but I can see me back in court somewhere along the lines here because I simply will not allow her to bully me into anything but then again she may end up trying it herself to change the arrangement if I refuse to budge. But I think my chances of getting the kids at least majority time if not full time is a decent bet IF we end up there

So I think the long and the short of it is that she wants the freedom to run and do as is convenient for her irregardless of what it does for me and the kids. I do not know the full 'why' but am sure its not for my benefit but rather for hers and to allow her to be even more irresponsible.

During your court procedings, did your son have much say in the outcomes? Did they take his wishes into consideration?

Iam simply trying to think this thing through thoroughly before I draw the line in the sand and deal with the fallout of it

[ForeverDad]

Isn't it shocking how we've been so conditioned to be 'reasonable', to the point of being appeasing, that we find it so hard to set firm boundaries and limits and even find it hard to dare to say No even when it is needed?

Her latest BF is mobile and is not putting down any roots and she will need to follow him if she wants to maintain the relationship.

She will expect me to keep my word while she will do what works for her.

Her problem, don't let her make it your problem.

The dissolution papers specifically state that my address would be used for schooling purposes. I kept the house and bought her out. (She a full time student)

I recall when our Trial came up at the end of our two year divorce, she had a favorable temp order and so delayed our divorce process as long as she could, that she said she wanted to settle just as I arrived at court that day.  My primary condition?  That I had to be Residential Parent for School Purposes.  Unbelievably, both lawyers insisted it didn't mean anything at all, just which school our child attended.  (Side note, she moved out of the county a year later and I would have been the one forced to handle remote schooling!)  Well, I became RP and her school said they would let our son finish out his kindergarten year there. Within TWO MONTHS she had caused enough scenes at exchanges there at school that they notified me I had ONE DAY to enroll him in my school.  And it was a mere FIVE WEEKS before the end of the school year!  I was proved right - if I hadn't been RP then the school would have been stuck with her and the conflict she caused wouldn't have been documented.  Once given the ability to wash their hands of us and with continuing incidents, the school booted us.

I really think now that you mention what your lawyer said, the longer time away is probably bad in the eyes of the court even if in the long term it ends up being 50/50. I simply can not allow my children to be gone for a year at a time. They wont even know who I am in a sense. A year is a long time for a kid.

If she moves and you don't follow, then the court will be forced to figure out a new schedule unless you two find a way to work it out.  Almost always one parent becomes the primary parent.  When long distances are involved the non-primary parent generally gets the longer school holidays (winter & spring breaks) and more time than the usual two week vacation in the summer.

If you are Residential Parent then that is a slight edge in your favor and it might tip the scales just enough to make a difference.  Surely far better than her being the RP.

My kids already put up a fuss about going to see their mom at times  and given the choice, they already voiced their desire to NOT go to a different school. I have to be honest but I can see me back in court somewhere along the lines here because I simply will not allow her to bully me into anything but then again she may end up trying it herself to change the arrangement if I refuse to budge. But I think my chances of getting the kids at least majority time if not full time is a decent bet IF we end up there.

During your court proceedings, did your son have much say in the outcomes? Did they take his wishes into consideration?

Until my son was 9 years old, he was always clear about wanting more time with me.  But right about that age I was seeking to get custody (due to continuing conflict) and somehow she suddenly managed to get him to believe it would be 'fair' for equal time.  Since then he's never admitted to a GAL or the court that he preferred me.  Still, he often asks to stay longer with me and says yes anytime she asked him if he wants to come to me when she's working, etc.  What I concluded:  Children don't want to be stuck in the middle nor be made to choose one parent over the other.  Wise judges will not directly ask the children what they want - they could have been coached too - but instead find more indirect and subtle ways to feel the children out.

So I think the long and the short of it is that she wants the freedom to run and do as is convenient for her irregardless of what it does for me and the kids.

She is an adult, she has a right to live her life her way, even if elsewhere.  But... .the kids stay.  That needs to be your firm boundary.

[slimmiller]

Thank You Foreverdad!

I am basically trying to confirm what I probably already know and your comments are very helpful. Believe me I want whats best and am willing to consider all options logically. But that does not mean TRY any of those options necessarily.

The latest development, last Friday I took the day off work in order to take the kids to the local county fair. Their school was out for that reason and all their friends would be there. ExBPD dropped them off in the morning and wanted to 'talk'

As you might imagine it was about the kids and her pending move. She will be done with school next May and I think he will already be done and living in California which creates her delima.

I was very firm, I will absolutely NOT agree to year on year off. We both made a pro/con list at her insistance and she starts crying half way through because the facts stared her right in her face and she simply could not sustain her own argument. She had 10 pros, albeit half of them were very thin and 8 cons, all pretty legit. I had 17 cons and 5 pros. of those 5 several I m not sure are really good.

Several points that really made an impression was my argument that the kids would have to switch drs dentists etc for one year then the next switch back. That argument she could not in any way counter.


I also pointed out that if she was really valuable to 'him' that he could make some effert on his part to commute for the sake of the well being of the kids. Why should the kids and I make all the sacrifice and he make absolutely none in order for them to be happy. I told her that I was very serious in that I want her to be happy in her life and will not deliberatley try and thwart that but if she moves its her choice and a difficulty that she is creating and not me or the kids. At this opoint she got the waifish look and with her puppy face said very sweetly 'I just want to give you a hug'. I stood stoicly and showed absolutely no emotion and I think that part baffled her.

One bad thing is the youngest who has always been more mommies girl stepped out of her room and walked up to the kitchen table where we were sitting and looks at her mother while her mother had tears and I could see the pained look on her face (My daughter) I regret that situation but I also immediatelty told her (my ex) That the convo was going to end right there or go outside. She elected to go outside .

All in all we didnt really get too much accomplished other then she knows I am dead serious about going to court and contesting custody itself if she intends on pursuing the whole thing further. I honestly dont see how the court would think it to be a good idea to uproot them every year. I understand my exes situation but its not mine to fix.

We will definitely come back to the argument but I told her I was in no way interested in solving her problems but I know of folks that have long distance relationships and travel back and forth for long weekends a few times a month and she should consider such an idea because it would be almost the same amount of airline tickets as shuffling the kids back and forth (all three) three-four times a year. That is also a problem. I am ok finacially but she is not even really working yet, let alone making enough money to do much more then pay the bills at this point.

I did tell her if she is so serious about doing, if she is willing to go ahead and leave for a year and leave me the kids and see how it works at which point she balked, she wants the kids the first year. I told her shes is bluffing and i dont think shes being sincere if shes not willing to take a chance and do it. She dont trust that I will hold my end of it because I always tell her I will do what works. I will not promise her something I cant deliver. My thought is if at the end of the first year we can change it up and decide not to or her relationship with him is over etc etc I will not blindly do as I commited to but she wants my word because she knows she can count on it and yet she will do what ever works for her even if it means not keeping her word

Am I on the right track? Any ideas on what I may be viewing wrong? and is there any ideas/ suggestions to counter her arguments further?

[momtara]

Ugh, switching off YEARS?  No.  I agree with everyone else - don't do it.  What if she moves away during her year?  What if the kids don't want an abrupt change?

I also agree with the comment that we try to hard to appease them and be reasonable, when they are not.  This will bite you in the butt later.  You have the power.  Be firm.

I wish I could learn that more myself!  We all need it.

[livednlearned]

For so many emotional-social-psychological and logistical reasons, I can't imagine this would be best for the kids, but add to that the object constancy issues many BPD sufferers have and the common pairing with parental alienation (even the low-grade stuff is pretty toxic), a one-year on, one-year off schedule would be a perfect storm.

You don't have to give the court reasons, is my guess. She is the one who will be on the defensive. How does it work in your state if one parent wants to move away? In mine, there are nine criteria that the judge considers and if the move is not in the best interests of the kids, then the whole deal is off. The criteria are things like: is the school district comparable or better, will there be family or kin living there, is this a hometown with a support network, what is the relationship like between the kids and the other parent, what kind of custody arrangement is already in place, are both parents healthy, does the other parent have a job offer already in place, is the parent unable to get work in his or her profession or line of work locally.

[catnap]

www.famad.com/articles/shared-parenting-relocation-ohio.asp 

I think it would be a really good idea to secretly tape any other discussions.  She may have already spoken to an attorney and been advised that her reasons to want to relocate would not be enough. However,  if she can get your approval (and pro reasons) for the kids to move it would be the easiest way to achieve her goal. If she can't she may move to plan B--which could involve making false allegations against you. 

IMO, it would be worth a visit to a family lawyer to ask about the laws where you live. 

Other cons:

difference in school curriculum

year to year activities such as boy/girl scouting

team sports

the children's social networks 

close relationships with other relatives

[ForeverDad]

So... .  She cannot make you agree to alternate years, family court would be very unlikely to order alternate years, so the end result if she does move away is that one parent would get very little time with the children such as a few of the longer school year holidays and extra time during the summer.  If you're already in a positive situation with parenting then don't 'gift' that away to her in 'deals' that put you at a greater disadvantage.

Your primary disadvantage is that you're the wrong gender, but nothing you can do about that.   While the courts claim to be gender-neutral, the rules, policies, procedures and default decisions are such that in most places mothers get an unwritten preference.  For example, it's not that the courts ask non-verbally, "Which parent should be the primary parent?"  It's more like, "Why shouldn't the mother be the primary parent?"  They'll never admit to it but that's been the default for decades and only slowly changing.

In my case, my then-spouse had a Threat of DV case pending against her in county court (eventually she was found not guilty since she didn't heave a weapon in her hands which the judge interpreted to mean her emphatic threats were not 'imminent' and family court only ascertained that CPS had "no concerns" about me the father before ordering that we get the usual temporary custody and parenting time schedule with mother as primary and majority time.  It took me two years in divorce and another 3 long court actions over a period of nearly 6 years to reverse that and get an order that actually worked.

What I'm saying is that if you make deals weakening your current situation, it will be an uphill struggle to fix it later.

[momtara]

The last line of Matt's post is very important.

Be as strong as possible now, not lenient.  You can always give things back later if your situation improves.