Now ex asks if he can take the kids unsupervised...

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My ex got off unsupervised visitation 2 weeks ago.  Took the kids last weekend and yelled at me at pickup and made them cry, but they came back fine.

His weekend is coming up again and he sent me emails asking if he can take them unsupervised.  That's a weird request.  He doesn't have to ask.

Posted this at the end of another thread but I'm starting a new one.  His behavior was scary last time but i was going to let it go because i know he was triggered and usually he calms down after a few days.  With this new question, it's a little weird.  I know he's delusional.

Wondering if he is just engaging me, or if I should talk to my L about this?  I am wondering if he is setting up a legal precedent to prove he takes them without his parents there and it's just fine and dandy to do so.

[momtara]

My ex got off unsupervised visitation 2 weeks ago.  Took the kids last weekend and yelled at me at pickup and made them cry, but they came back fine.

His weekend is coming up again and he sent me emails asking if he can take them unsupervised.  That's a weird request.  He doesn't have to ask.

Posted this at the end of another thread but I'm starting a new one.  His behavior was scary last time but i was going to let it go because i know he was triggered and usually he calms down after a few days.  With this new question, it's a little weird.  I know he's delusional.

Wondering if he is just engaging me, or if I should talk to my L about this?  I am wondering if he is setting up a legal precedent to prove he takes them without his parents there and it's just fine and dandy to do so.

[Matt]

I'm confused.

What does the current court order say about the kids spending time with their father?

[momtara]

It says he's back off unsupervised visitation.

He had to agree to a few things.  But he can take them every other weekend as previously scheduled.

So I asked him why he was asking for my permission.  He said that he's on supervised visitation.  He has totally forgotten that we got a court order last month getting him off of it.

Isn't that scary?  Should I worry even more now?

[Matt]

"Back off unsupervised visitation" - does that mean he is on supervised visitation, so he can only see the kids with professional supervision?

What are the few things he had to agree to?

Did he make his request by e-mail or verbally?

The way I learned to handle the schedule is only by e-mail, stating what I will do:

"I will drop the kids off at your place at noon Saturday and pick them up at noon Sunday."  Say what you will do, and then do it, rather than asking the other party any questions, or engaging in a discussion.

That doesn't mean everything is my way;  I put forward a schedule which I think meets everybody's needs and is consistent with the court order.  That way there is no confusion - it's all in writing.

If my ex doesn't like the plan, she can say so - by e-mail - and then we have to work that out.

This approach works almost all the time.  Other approaches - like discussing the schedule over the phone for example - rarely worked.

[momtara]

OK.  To explain better:

Ex has some mental health issues.  Our parent coordinator found out he was off his meds and recommended I file an emergency order for supervised visitation until he goes back on.  We filed and got supervised.  Then his docs said he was complying.  So we dropped supervised, but made an agreement saying he has to have a parent coordinator (to start in 2 months) and stay in therapy.  So he picked up the kids last time and yelled at me a lot first.  He took them to his family's house and they came home just fine.  Now it's time for him to take them again and he's asking my permission because he thinks he's still on supervised visitation. He says his family will be away and can't supervise.  It's odd because two weeks ago he knew he wasn't on supervised visitation.  It's like a mental block.  Maybe he is afraid to have them alone or something.  So part of me should discourage it but I can't totally say no.  I didn't realize he was so sick he could actually forget the recent court order!

[Matt]

I see - thanks - you've explained this on other threads but it's hard to keep track... .

So you have agreed to unsupervised visits;  it would be, in my humble opinion, deceitful for you now to deny them, even though he is confused.  (It's a disturbing sign that he can't remember something so simple, so important, and so recent!)  I think you should say, "I agreed that you can have the kids unsupervised so long as you are in therapy and acting right.  If you yell at me I will close the door but if you pick up the kids and treat everybody right you don't need supervision."

He may then argue with you - "I didn't yell at you" or "You started it!" - some justification for his behavior.  You can just stick with, "If you are going to pick them up at 6:00 p.m. and treat everybody right you don't need supervision.  Is that what you are going to do?".

If he can't deal with that, then it's on him.  You make the offer and if he follow through, great.  If he yells at you or the kids, I would suggest you close and lock the door and don't take his calls.  Write your attorney an e-mail stating what happened, to get it down on paper - do that right away so it's a "contemporaneous" description of what happened - and go on with your life.

Boundaries - what will you do if he acts out?  You don't want to engage with him if he is acting out - don't continue the interaction - end it.

One more thought:  You are having him pick the kids up at your place.  I found it to work better if I do all the driving.  I had it written into our court order that I will drop the kids off at their mom's house and pick them up there.  A couple of reasons... .

First, this puts me in control.  I don't have to wait for her to arrive.  I take the kids at the agreed time and pick them up at the agreed time.  Since their mom is very passive-aggressive, I don't leave anything to her - I take the actions that are needed.

More important, it gives her no reason to be where I live.  (Initially I considered not telling her where I had moved to.  I thought it would be great if she never even came to this neighborhood.  But that wouldn't have been practical.)  I don't have to deal with her acting out in my home or on my property or even nearby.  I take the kids to her place and they take their stuff in her house - I never see her or interact with her.  I call the kids - they have phones - when I'm on the way over to pick them up, so I never have to talk to her at all.

Your situation is different because of the kids' ages.  But if you are picking up or dropping off at his house, and he acts out, you can drive away - you aren't being yelled at in your own home or outside your home.

[momtara]

This is true - I actually was thinking of spending my money on a car rather than lawyers.  I am not scared about him having the kids with his parents.  It's largely the driving and coming back that I worry about - like, that he could drive them into the river or something.  Maybe just my own fears.  I don't have a car; I live in a city.  But that might have solved some problems in the first place!

[david]

lnl said it best with, "I prefer you not take care of the kids without supervision." You are simply stating your preference and nothing more. Yea it looks like you are playing games but he was the one that introduced the idea. You are just agreeing with him. He can counter with what the order is and that is that or he can go along with your preference.

[david]

In a previous post you said that your T said you need to stop explaining so much to your ex. Follow the T's advice.

[momtara]

Yup.

Just talked to a potential new lawyer who has more time for me.  I wish I'd had this one to begin with.  She said I can go to court with an ex parte motion, but it's possible that since he hasn't 'done' anything, it might get converted to a regular motion.  Then my exH would have 28 or more days until it's heard, and may still have the kids unsupervised during that time.  And he'd be more concerned than before and more triggered.  So I take the risk if I go back to court.

I should have done more when I had the chance, while he was supervised.  That said, I have to figure out what to do next.

In any case, as of this weekend, I'm not saying no, and not officially saying yes.  This L believes that he doesn't want the pressure of having the kids without his parents there, and that's why he's bringing it up.  So I have to offer him an out.

[ForeverDad]

lnl said it best with, "I prefer you not take care of the kids without supervision." You are simply stating your preference and nothing more. Yea it looks like you are playing games but he was the one that introduced the idea. You are just agreeing with him. He can counter with what the order is and that is that or he can go along with your preference.

"I prefer you not take care of the kids without your parents, why don't you wait until they're back?"  Noticed I swapped the 'supervision' word with less triggering 'parents'.  And if he does insist, then you can always offer to take them back any time he needs a break.

[momtara]

I talked to two L's, both of whom said to try to reinstate supervised visitation for now.  Is this too extreme?  I have a bad feeling about letting them go with him this weekend.  But then I hear the stories of so many worse exes (drug problems, yelling etc.) who do just fine, so this may be just my anxieties again.

Really we need to start with a parent coordinator or someone who can help us deal with this together.  I thought I could co parent with someone with a mental illness.  It's very hard.

I don't think he'll hurt them, so what's my problem? 

I did say all the things mentioned above - maybe he should wait a week, etc.  His response is that he wants to take them and wants my permission.  So that didn't discourage him.  I feel like he's almost challenging me to say no.

They are both sick (colds and stuff) so I am just going to say they're sick.  Then we'll figure out the next step.  If we do ask for supervised again, it does start the problem that he will get off it soon and be even less trusting of me. 

May just have to talk to his lawyers and ask him to wait on visitation until we have a PC in place who thiks it's safe.

[david]

I had a pc a while back. It had positives and negatives. It was court ordered for a year and ended. After it ended things didn't change. Eventually I changed and decided to take a more assertive approach. There were some bumps along the way but over time I figured more positive ways to deal with ex than negative. Ex hasn't changed much and I accept that for what it is.

The boys and I have grown closer during that time because I was their only functioning parent.

[momtara]

Well, the kids are sick this weekend and I told ex that but he insists on coming to get them anyway.  They are so small.  I said no, but worried he'll still show up.  I know withholding visitation is bad but I just have a bad feeling.  Stupid?  Maybe.  I did say he can do a makeup weekend.  He is coming soon (possibly) and I am worried.

[momtara]

He showed up.  He said his parents were home and they were going to have a little birthday party for one of the kids (it is his b-day this weekend).  I felt a little better and let the kids go.  Now I feel stupid because I told him not to come and it's another boundary I let loose.  But I guess if I didn't let them go, I might have been wishing I'd let him in to see how he acted.

Now I'm at yet another crossroads wondering if I should file a motion this week or not based on his weird behavior.  Jumping the gun is bad.  Sometimes doing nothing is bad too.

My L is ready to go back to court and ask to reinstate supervised visitation and ask for the PC to start sooner and for her to talk to his mental health professionals, and have a psych exam.  I'm thinking at least maybe I can deal with this situation now and not wait. But to do this, I have to show my hand (tape recording of last time he came and was verbally abusive) and it will really piss him off.   And these things really never end.

He is just going to engage me forever.  Best I can do is limit it.

[momtara]

It seems unlikely to me that I will get supervised visitation.

I think maybe I have to suck it up at this point.  I hate that I have to wait for the next time he's nutty and deal with his nuttiness.