Grandparent Wanting Custody - Do Courts Recognize BPD is a Serious Illness?

[mom2bpd]

My uBPDD has left my GD7 in my and her grandfather's care so many times during the child's life.  She was in our care for almost a year while her mother was out of the country.  Then she left her in our care this summer suddenly because she and her new husband of less than a year were having marital issues. and she didn't think my GD7 was safe around him.  Besides this uBPDD and GD7 have lived together with us for most of GD7's life.  So when they lived with us, we were always taking care of our GD7.  Since my daughter is not diagnosed, would I have to request a psychological evaluation as part of a court order in order to prove she has this disease? I have described some of my uBPDD's decisions to three therapists, and they all told me she has BPD.  This is how I came to study the disease because I had no idea what the problem was and whether she just needed to grow up.  She's 32 and still hasn't grown up.  We would like to initially get a court order for joint custody, but I don't know that this will help our GD7 since her mother would have primary residence.  It would give us more rights though and cause less disruption with our uBPDD.  After that, we could possibly try to get full custody.  Please let me know your experiences with proving a parent has BPD in U.S. family law courts.  Her mother, the uBPDD, is now talking about taking GD7 back to live with she and the stepfather because they've been getting along for 2 and 1/2 weeks!  Our poor GD7 doesn't want to tell her mother that she doesn't trust either of them.  She can't even tell her mother that she doesn't want to move back with them yet because she fears her mother's anger after that.  I know that even if this marriage doesn't last, which I doubt it will, there will be more crazy BFs and stepfathers to follow for our poor GD7.  That's why I think we have to think of how we can at least get joint custody.  Any and all advice is welcomed.  Thanks!

[livednlearned]

Hi mom2BPD,

Welcome to the family law board -- it's not easy trying to providing a steady, loving environment for kids when a parent has BPD. Your GD is lucky you're in her corner looking out for her.

Laws tend to be different in each state, so it's a good idea to find out how things work where you live. Most courts care first and foremost about what is best for the child, but that is open to interpretation. In general, the diagnoses of a mental illness is just one data point among many that courts use to determine what is best. The fact that you have cared so much for your GD, and at the request of your D, is good. Even more important than a diagnosis is having documentation from your D that the home environment is untenable and not safe for GD.

Are you sure that the H is the problem, though? Could your D be using that as an excuse, and she parks GD with you when she feels out of control? There is so much projecting when it comes to BPD, and nothing is as it seems. I ask because if it's the H, then it appears as though your D is protecting her child. That might make her look like a stable, loving mom in the court's view.

Another big issue is that custody works different depending on where you live. For example, where I live, physical custody and legal custody are two different things. Then there is something called decision-making. Then there is visitation. For you, just by virtue of getting shared custody, you make it hard for your D to leave the state with your GD, or to do anything without your consent. Even if she has primary custody. What will likely happen is that the court will decide of D is fit to parent her child, and if you are an important, stabilizing and good influence on GD. But court moves incredibly slowly and very cautiously, and anything that is ordered is yours to enforce. If your D tries to pull a fast one and take GD out of state, you're the one who has to track her down and bring the case before the court. Very likely, you'll find yourself inching toward more and more custody over time, not getting a landslide verdict the first time in court. If you want to read about court and BPD, check out Bill Eddy's book, "Splitting" or visit his www.highconflictinstitute.com website. Splitting is about divorcing a NPD/BPD spouse but you'll get the general gist of what happens with high-conflict PD sufferers when they encounter the court system.

Also, if GD is living with you now and is enrolled in school based on your residence, that is going to be very helpful. Courts seem to love the status quo.

It's a really good idea to get a psych eval -- ask for the MMPI-2. It's considered "objective" and much harder to fool. The psych eval alone won't make the court award you custody, but it will help. Document everything you can, including the number of days that your GD is with you, and try to get her in to see a T. Might be difficult -- you aren't the legal guardian and a T might ask for parental permission. I got my son into therapy by telling my H I thought S13 was showing signs similar to my own behavior, and N/BPDx liked the idea that I was responsible for messing up my son.   So if you do try to arrange for therapy, be tactful. The other option is to talk to the guidance counselor at school, and to establish a relationship. The court is going to put more stock in third-party professionals than you or your D, so the sooner you can establish how your GD feels with counselors, the better the paper trail if you need to establish this angle in court. Even more important, your GD is going to need a therapist. She just is  :'( If that absolutely isn't an option, I highly recommend getting the Power of Validation -- it's an essential technique you need to learn to master to help your D. It's extremely invalidating to have a BPD parent, and the best gift you can give her is to help validate her experience. She is having big league sad feelings and trying to sweep those feelings away is only going to lead to bigger problems. She needs to be heard on a consistent basis and learn to trust her version of reality.

And last -- it's a good idea to consult with a few lawyers. It usually costs $50 to $100 or so for 30 minutes. Sit down with your H and think of all the questions you have, and then start talking to different Ls. To find an L who has experience with this kind of case, you could search "high-conflict divorce" or "parental alienation" for your zip code. Or start asking around and see if the same names start coming up. Be sure to ask if the L has ever tried a case like this, and what was the outcome. What was the strategy, what were the outcomes, etc. You'll learn a lot in the process, and can then come here if you aren't sure which L feels right. People here might have some ideas about questions to answer to help narrow things down.

Hope this helps. 

[catnap]

Grandparents' Page  https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/elder/grandparents.shtml 

What are Grandparent’s and Close Relative’s Rights in Texas? www.kollmeierlawfirm.com/resourcedocs/familyLaw/GPRightsLV.html  Please note that this is an attorney's site, but I thought the information might give you a better understanding of what is entailed and perhaps to help you formulate questions. 

And last -- it's a good idea to consult with a few lawyers. It usually costs $50 to $100 or so for 30 minutes. Sit down with your H and think of all the questions you have, and then start talking to different Ls.

Also helpful prior to consultations would be to have a brief timeline put together showing how you have cared for GD most of her life, the year she lived mostly with you (and why), the recent arrests of your new son-in-law (you mentioned on a prior post 2 arrests in 3 weeks), etc.  Type it up (bullet style, or brief one sentence points) and make a copy to hand to the attorney. 

Write down your questions and leave space, so you can jot down what the L tells you.

[livednlearned]

This might also be helpful: What is the story on "Grandparents' Rights?

[mom2bpd]

Thanks for the advice, suggestions, and ideas!  I really appreciate all of you.  I'm taking granddaughter to a counselor and she went before when she was staying with us. Any and all advice or past experiences in this area are welcome.

[catnap]

As livedandlearned stated:  "Even more important than a diagnosis is having documentation from your D that the home environment is untenable and not safe for GD."  Your son-in-laws arrests depending on what they were for might have an impact since he is living in the home. 

Perhaps ask a few pertinent questions for free at avvo.com

[mom2bpd]

I haven't been on in awhile but wanted to thank everyone for their helpful comments and suggestions.  Making a brief time line was great advice and was so helpful in proving my case.  I went to see a lawyer who told me I have a good case for joint custody. I was relieved and scared at the same time. I know my uBPDD is going to paint me black again and say I'm breaking up her happy family and trying to blind side her... .etc.  Her crazy spouse now wants to move out of the country and this is enough to push me to move forward with this.

I'm wondering how anyone survives joint custody with a BPDD. How do u get them to follow what they agreed to on paper?       Do u end up back in court constantly?

[livednlearned]

I'm wondering how anyone survives joint custody with a BPDD. How do u get them to follow what they agreed to on paper?       :)o u end up back in court constantly?

It depends on the pwBPD, I think. Some are ill in ways that make it hard for them to follow through, or stick with a lawyer, or follow what a lawyer advises them to do.

Some, like mine, either don't want the responsibility of being a parent, or can't handle it, but they can keep the negative engagement going at the legal level. What I have learned is that in family court, we become the enforcers of the orders. That means if your D doesn't comply, you have to go to court to enforce the order. That's why it's very important to include specific language in your orders about consequences for non-compliance. That will eliminate some of the guess-work on behalf of the judge if it comes to that. If you're paying to enforce an order, you don't want to minimize the gamble on how the judge will rule as much as possible. My guess is that if you, as the GM, end up with joint custody, future rulings are going to generally be in your favor.

Some pwBPD seem to get desperate if the court is not on their side. If your D moves out of the country, she may try to go around court (remove your GD without permission).

Or not. Some will move on because it's too hard, too much work, or have a new life that keeps them busy. Your D may come back in several years and want a fourth or fifth bite from the apple, and you may end up in court only periodically.

Past behavior is a good indicator of future actions. That might give you a sense of how engaged in court you'll be. Hopefully it's sporadic.

[catnap]

If you are awarded primary in a joint custody situation it gives you more "power".  You really want to avoid joint decision making if at all possible.  Meaning your D would have to agree which school, doctor, etc. is best for the child.  One tool you might want to ask for is OFW (Our Family Wizard) which is used for communication between the people parenting.

[mom2bpd]

Thanks for the advice especially about specific details if my uBPDD doesn't follow the court order. 

I have a question because I've only seen one attorney and he said the easiest thing for me to get would be joint possessory which means getting to visit the child and helping to make some decisions about how to raise the child.  He also said that I could stipulate where the child must live or in one area she must live in with her mother.  As you say, I may be able to get more custody of her as time goes on, but should I seek the advice of another attorney or two?  My problem is that I'm not sure about the time constraint I'm under since the statement was made about moving abroad a couple of weeks ago.  We've been told nothing about the proposed date, and I believe that's because the spouse is trying to skip out on bail.  I'm trying to get my husband to talk to my uBPDD about the proposed date of the trip since he's better at getting info than I am from her.  I also didn't tell the lawyer that her husband was most likely trying to skip bail, which I believe that I need or should reveal, right?  I just don't know how deep to go into all the problems since all this will surely anger my uBPDD even more.  I suppose the lawyer doesn't have to reveal everything that he knows once the lawsuit for custody is filed.  That kind of information would most likely come out in court I believe.  But the lawyer could also report her spouse for what he's trying to do, or I could.  I suppose my uBPDD wouldn't be leaving the country with him in jail

Livednlearned, my uBPDD's past history is not taking responsibility for her child, or intermittantly not taking responsibility once she's tired of it.  Consequently, we've taken care of this GD as much or more than she has.

Thanks for all your advice.  This whole situation is causing a lot of stress for me, and I haven't even filed yet!

[catnap]

Yes, the attorney needs to know as much information you can give them. 

Your L can best help you with all the information.  Do you feel comfortable with this attorney?  If so, go back and lay out what you highly suspect her husband plans to do.  The comments your D has made about moving abroad.  Financially could she afford to leave the US now?  Has bail been set? 

You can also consult other attorneys to get their take on your situation.  www.avvo.com/ allows you to ask free questions anonymously, find attorneys in your area that have free consultations, etc.

[ForeverDad]

Hiding information typically means you're trying to protect someone from consequences.  So is it for the right reasons?  Usually not a good idea - especially with people behaving poorly - unless you have a good reason.

If the child's father is planning or contemplating skipping bail and your daughter may go and take her child with her in the middle of a family court case, that's probably a good reason not to hide information.  Whether it is actionable or not, it's hard to know in anonymous and remote peer support.  It would be good to let your lawyer know, he can't give good legal advice without your information.

Yes, your daughter may be upset that this information gets out, but frankly, won't she get upset at you about almost anything, whether or not you triggered her?  You can't win everything so you do have to choose your battles but this is something important, right?

[mom2bpd]

Thanks for your comments.  Catnap, bail was already set when my uBPDD's spouse was released from jail in the summer.  He hasn't gone to court yet, and I believe this is when he has to come up with some money.  I do feel comfortable with this attorney but I only had an hour long consultation with him so it's hard to judge.

ForeverDad, this is my GD's stepfather but my uBPDD would be crazy enough to leave the country with my GD in the middle of a family court case.  My uBPDD will be upset about almost anything for sure, and I never know when it's coming.  I'm not trying to protect anyone but just praying that her spouse leaves the country alone one day suddenly.  I know I can't count on that happening and must tell the lawyer about it. Yes, this is really really important to me that my GD not leave the country with them because this is her sanity we are talking about.  I cannot put a price on a child's sanity, and I know it's worth it to protect GD whether her mother becomes dysregulated or not over it.

Thanks for both of your comments and for the avvo website.  I've already asked a free question.  That's a great website and resource for legal matters.

[livednlearned]

mom2BPD,

I understand the feeling that filing something is urgent. Where I live, once there is an open custody case, neither party can leave the state with the minor child. If your D lived in my state, and tried to leave with GD, it would be harder to set things in motion to get her back. But if you have filed for custody, then when you call law enforcement, they check the files and when they find there is an open custody case, they will act.

After things have been filed, then you can take a small breath. Things tend to move slowly, and that would work to your advantage.

But ask your L how it works where you live. There are legal definitions of abduction and kidnapping, and a lot of interpretation because there are so many different kids of custody orders. Law enforcement will do different things depending on the nature of where you are in the legal process and what the custody order says.

And there are some countries that will work with law enforcement here to help you get GD back, where other countries that have no agreement with the US. For example, Canada cooperates by observing the custody orders of any American court, whereas there are countries in the Middle East who pretty much shrug.

You might want to get something put in your order that requires you to be a co-signer of any passport. I believe you can also set up an alert with customs, but you might need a legal custody order in order to do that. In my order, it was very specific about where S13 could travel (changed now because I have full legal) -- so he was allowed to travel to my country twice a year for no longer than 2 weeks and N/BPDx had to write a notarized letter of permission (standard for my country). But any other country required consent.

It was a mess. Try to get as much decision-making and legal custody as possible so you don't have to get your D's permission. Because you'll never get it... .no matter how much it makes sense or benefits GD.