Should I file for legal seperation?

[Aerial]

So I went to see an attorney yesterday morning, who advised me to file for a legal separation. But first a little background:

About 2 months ago, my wife and I got into an argument. At that time I wasn’t aware of the possibility that she had BPD and I related her actions and responses to PTSD and her anxiety. Most of it I let slide, thinking it would solve with the counseling she was receiving (on-and-off) and that way I can support her. However, I was trying to show my boundaries a little more. The weeks leading to the night of the argument she became more volatile. She had tried to commit suicide 3 or 4 times, where on one occasion we had a deputy come over but she talked him out of taking any action. 2 Days before, she pushed our oldest son (4) off the stairs and threatened me to harm the children if I did not solve the situation. She had grabbed a knife to prove her point. I asked our children to go play in the yard and talked to her. She said she had no control over herself.

That night our argument escalated. She didn’t want to hear my side of the story and wanted to be left alone in our bedroom. Since I had dinner up, I offered her dinner and offered her mine. She threw the plate towards me.  I asked her if she could calm down and walked away.

She followed me downstairs and asked where her phone was. I didn’t know, so she told me she hid mine in return. I asked her what she is trying to achieve by doing that and she got angry and chased me with a knife. After some time I managed to calm us both down somewhat, and our youngest child (1) started to cry. I told her I was going to check on him and asked her to stay calm so we can talk later.

When I was holding him, I saw her coming too (she no longer had the knife.) She punched me in my eye after I couldn’t see anymore, it was dark and I was squeezing my eyes. When I fell that my son was falling, I tried to grab him with my other arm but hit her instead. I realized she was trying to take him over, so I let him go. I wanted to walk away from the situation to calm down, but went back to apologize for hitting by accident. She had grabbed a baseball bat and was hitting me with it. Then started screaming out of the window I was trying to hurt our son. Not knowing what to do anymore, I grabbed the first phone I could find (which was hers, on the dining table) and walked out of our house. The neighbors had heard her scream for help and called 911.

After I calmed down and asked someone what to do, I also called 911 because she had threatened me with a knife and she has our 4 children in the house. They told me the deputies wanted to talk to me. The brought me back to the house and then arrested me for Domestic Violence (DV-4). The statements in the police report were entirely based on lies or something turned around so it would look bad.

I was let go with no charges filed, but my wife and her mother kept calling the police so I was arrested again. Unfortunately, there were no witnesses, no hard evidence and the state I am in is one of the most difficult to fight DV cases. On top of that she had petitioned for a restraining order. With most DV cases there is also a no-contact issued, so I have 2 ROs now.

2 Attorneys (one criminal defense attorney and one family law attorney) tried to contact her, but the 3 times (total) that they tried to contact her they were treated very aggressively by her and her mother.

Back to the attorney, who advised to file for a legal separation. I really would like to see if we can still work things out. More so, since I now have a better understanding of what is going on (not that it will be easy). Before we got married, she said she came with a lot baggage and I promised her to marry her anyway.

She has temporary custody over our children right now. According to my attorney, it would be best to file for legal separation because we can file for a parenting plan, get a court appointed counselor mediating between us and a better position in the case. And for the children it will be the wisest decision. But it makes me feel I am betraying her. And because of BPD, wouldn’t see feel abandoned? Would I throw out any chance of reconciliation and become more aggressive in her approach or take it out on the children, or herself?

Any insight would be much appreciated! Thank you!

[Matt]

Aerial,

Welcome to our group!  (But I'm sorry for what you're going through that brings you here.)

First a few of my own experiences, as an introduction:

Married 12 years, 2 kids and 2 stepkids.  My wife lost control at times, but usually just verbal abuse of me and some of the kids.  Near the end, a few minor episodes of violence and threats, like throwing an iron at me.  Then one night she came home, attacked me with my guitar - she didn't hit me and I don't think she was really trying to, but she was out of control.  I physically removed her from our home and locked the doors, and then fixed dinner for the kids, and started their baths... .

She went next door, called 911, and told them I "threw her down the stairs".  Two officers came and investigated - talked to both of us and to the kids, who saw a little of what happened - and gathered some physical evidence like the sheet music she had torn up.

If they had believed her story, they could have charged me with attempted murder - throwing somebody down the stairs.  But they caught her changing her story, and both the physical evidence and what the kids said proved she was lying.  In my state, because of how the Violence Against Women Act is interpreted, officers are required to make an arrest when a woman accuses a man of DV, so I was arrested and charged with ":)omestic violence assault".  She was charged with "Creating a public disturbance" and ":)estruction of private property".  I spent the night in jail... .

... .and then hired a criminal defense attorney for $5,000.

In a few weeks we got a copy of the police report, and the charges were dropped - the officers made it clear that my wife's story wasn't true.  I agreed - maybe wisely or unwisely - that the charges against my wife should be dropped too.

Later, I hired a family law attorney - he was a loser so I changed to one with good experience - we filed one motion for a Custody Evaluation, which included an objective test (MMPI-2) which led to my wife being diagnosed with BPD;  and a motion to depose my wife.  Those turned out to be good moves, and I was able to come from behind to get 50/50 custody, and over time that has morphed to "de facto primary custody" - the kids are with me most of the time and doing very well.

So what did I learn that might be helpful to you?

A few things, but I'm going to break this up into a separate post... .

[Matt]

So from my own experience and others here, there are some things I think are usually best... .

* Make sure you find a criminal defense attorney - don't expect your family law attorney to do both jobs.

* If you can find an attorney who has experience with similar cases - BPD or other psych disorders, false accusations, etc. - that is best.

* Do not take a plea agreement to something you didn't do.  If you do, you can never take it back.

* Shift the focus from being on defense - defending yourself against the accusations - to offense - the other party has committed the crime of making a false accusation.  Emphasize that there is no evidence against you - the accusations are not supported by anything because they are not true.

* Use depositions as a way to get the accuser's story into the record, in detail, so you can prove that it is false.  Then tell her attorney that if you go to trial - criminal case or custody case - you will put her client on the stand and show she lied under oath.

* Get objective psych evals - MMPI-2.  Yours may not be 100% clean (mine wasn't) but it's the best way to show that the other party has serious issues and that while you are dealing with your issues the best you can - counseling for example - she has very serious issues but denies them and rejects help.

* Do not think that your wife's behavior will get better without a diagnosis and treatment.  It won't.  She has been violent with you, threatened you, and made serious false accusations.  My lawyer told me, "Never be alone with her again, without a non-family adult third party present at every moment.  Or get yourself another attorney because I can't keep you out of jail if you won't stay away from her."   If you continue to be around her - ever, for any reason - without at least one non-family adult third party present, it is very likely she will sooner or later - probably sooner - accuse you of something, and you will go to jail.

* Again:  Do not believe that your wife's behavior will get better, without a diagnosis and treatment.  Nothing you can do will fix her.  Being nice won't work.  Doing what she tells you to do 100% of the time won't work.  Reasoning with her won't work.  She has gotten away with violence, threats and false accusations, so she will keep doing that and worse if you stay around her.

What about legal separation vs. divorce?

Where I live, they cost about the same.  If I got a legal separation, then I would have to pay again for the divorce - twice the cost for the same result.  Better to decide if you can fix the marriage or not, and go direct to divorce.

The marriage can't work unless your wife gets a diagnosis and treatment.  I spent a year and a lot of money trying to get my wife into therapy.  Our marriage counselor - who my wife picked - tried.  The Custody Evaluator recommended psychotherapy for my wife, and the court ordered her to follow that recommendation or she could lose all custody.  She ignored everybody and never got the treatment she needed, even though it was available at no cost to her.

The marriage can't work if one of the parties has NPD or BPD and isn't in treatment.  You can try to convince her, or maybe the court can order it after she has been diagnosed.  But if she doesn't want to change she won't change.  And if she doesn't choose to change, and get the professional help she needs, it will never be safe to be around her, and the marriage can't work.

Your energy is better put into helping the kids.  Figure out your best legal strategy for maximum custody, and find a way to pay for the legal help you need.  Put all the cards on the table - hide nothing - quit trying to protect your wife and shift your focus to protecting the kids.

If you take action to protect yourself and the kids, your wife may respond negatively somehow.  She may make more accusations against you, or try to alienate you from the kids.  Be prepared for that and use it to your advantage - shine the bright light of day on her actions.  Full steam ahead - your motive is not to hurt her or to protect her, but to do what is best for yourself and the kids.

Read "Splitting" by William A. Eddy, "Understanding The Borderline Mother" by Christine Lawson, and ":)ivorce Poison" by Richard Warshak.  Also Eddy's web site, www.HighConflictInstitute.com.

[ForeverDad]

Back to the attorney, who advised to file for a legal separation.

Legal separation is a legal strategy, right?  It gets you two apart so things might calm down yet give her room to withdraw her claim (if the court allows and if she decides to cycle you back).  However, in our cases LS is generally not a practical option.  You will rarely find an account of a member here doing LS except as a stopgap maneuver.  For example, in your case it might be a holding action to determine whether you're permanently painted black or whether she'll calm down and try to undo a little of what she did.  (After all, you're likely the one who works and if you're disadvantaged by this she might start wondering what will happen to her meal ticket.  Maybe.  Often by the time it gets to the point of police intervention the marriage is already imploding and too far gone.)

When I asked about LS my lawyer advised against it.  He said it would not work with my high conflict case.  (An example he gave that worked was when a couple wanted to divorce but the wife was ill and they mutually chose LS so she could stay on the insurance.)  In addition, he warned that if I chose LS, had a good custody evaluation and then later decided to divorce then it would trigger a new custody evaluation and the second time around she might know better how to hide her poor behaviors.

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy, Randi Kreger is a must-have handbook, it will help you avoid common mistakes we Nice Guys & Nice Gals are prone to make when encountering the unfamiliar legal system.  A bit late to get it, but better late than never.  Available at either author's website, online bookstores, etc.  Get it NOW!

I really would like to see if we can still work things out.

Really?  If she had her way she'd get you labeled as a child abuser, throw huge sums of money to the lawyers, perhaps even go to jail, perhaps lose your job?  Maybe you're thinking it can't get any worse, but it can.

Over the years I've seen a pattern... .if the acting-out disordered person doesn't stop Denial of the deep issues, seek out meaningful therapy, apply it diligently in thinking and behaviors, stick with it long term, stop the emotional blaming, blame-shifting and 'unsubstantiated' allegations - in other words change for the better permanently - then there is very little if anything you can do except to make changes in your life to keep your distance, set better boundaries for yourself and protect yourself and your parenting as best you can from legal exposure to more allegations.  It's dangerous to think you are an "exception to the rule".

[Aerial]

Thank you, I appreciate it! The legal separation is my attorney's idea to respect my wish to possibly reconcile. It looks like a legal separation is convertible to a divorce here in WA. She said with the current case load it will take about a year before we go to court. Meanwhile, we can work on a parenting plan, get a Guardian ad Litem if necessary, do the psych evals and perhaps a court appointed counselor (any other private counselor would be a violation of the restraining order).

I agree that she needs to be willing to seek counsel and willing to change, in order for reconciliation to work. She knows she needs counseling, but she is going when ever she feels up for it (she cancels the appointment or calls in sick whenever she doesn't.) And with the current situation our children need me, probably more than ever. Sadly, it looks like I have to go down the road of legal separation (or divorce). You're right, I need to think about the kids and my own well-being right now.

As for the DV they don't really take any circumstances into consideration. Any act of aggression in what form and how light it may be (pulling shirt, self-defense), can be reason for conviction here. They even have specially trained prosecutors for these kind of cases. My criminal defense attorney thinks it will still be my word against hers and they tend to believe the woman, regardless of the evidence I showed him.

My family law attorney believes she puts me in a difficult situation, but my attorney said she believes she can make it work.

I will look up the references, thank you!

[Aerial]

If she had her way she'd get you labeled as a child abuser, throw huge sums of money to the lawyers, perhaps even go to jail, perhaps lose your job?  Maybe you're thinking it can't get any worse, but it can.

I believe you, she already got me in jail. And I am without a doubt she would do it again or even worse. What I am trying to find out is what is me and what is what see projected on me. I am not sure at the moment and that is what I have asked my counselor.

My attorney suggested the LS (or it could be a divorce), so it would allow parental agreement, psychological test, etc. My wife hasn't filed for a divorce, so my lawyer thinks she feels comfortable behind the protection of a restraining order. She's now asking for child support through Child Support services, while she still has access to our joint checking accounts (which she overdrafts.)

[ForeverDad]

A question for your lawyer is whether it is time to limit her opportunity to make overdrafts by putting your paychecks into a personal account and pay bills from there.  Likely you won't pay her child support directly, most states want CS to be funneled through a state agency (thereby charging an extra fee, often about 2%.  Problem is, when you set limits or boundaries to the money she can access, it will likely trigger an overreaction.  Search here for "extinction burst" - rages to demand that we weaken our newly strengthened boundaries.

A few months before my separation & divorce my ex had refused to sign a J&S disclaimer for my 401(k) loan for a car I had just bought, so I had to go to a bank to get a higher rate car loan.  They wanted automatic deductions from an account at their bank so I used that as an opportunity to open a personal account there and have my paychecks deposited there.  She monitored our accounts and raged when she found out, she didn't care about the fact that her obstruction of a loan had done it.

Thank you, I appreciate it! The legal separation is my attorney's idea to respect my wish to possibly reconcile.

I too held out thoughts of a reconciliation for a few months - while we had protection orders from each other.  I had hoped it was just a rage that would be followed by the other side of the love/hate cycle.  (Paperback "I hate you, don't Leave Me!"  But it's been 8 years, never happened.  While your case could very well be different, you can't count on it.  If you have that as Plan A, be sure to have Plan B since Plan A isn't a sure solution.

And with the current situation our children need me, probably more than ever. Sadly, it looks like I have to go down the road of legal separation (or divorce). You're right, I need to think about the kids and my own well-being right now.

Most members arrived here thinking they have to stay married for the kids.  But ponder the example the children see, one parent volatile and often out of control and the other parent trying to cope and even appease, but failing.  As sad as divorce is, if you can provide a stable and loving home environment for the children for at least part of their daily lives, then that's a good example for the children.

I recall my GAL's words back in 2011 when I became Legal Guardian despite repeated 'unsubstantiated' allegations in prior years, "Because of you, your son will be okay."  His mother still had substantial parenting time but one functional parent is enough.

[Aerial]

I recall my GAL's words back in 2011 when I became Legal Guardian despite repeated 'unsubstantiated' allegations in prior years, "Because of you, your son will be okay."

Those are some nice and encouraging words. As their father I am responsible for my children's safety; both their physical and emotional well-being. And I can't guarantee that at the moment, and not just because of the recent events (CPS was already involved).

Right now I already get signals my wife isn't doing too well (kids not going to school, people worried about her), which make the situation more pressing. I am working on getting the retainer together.

I too held out thoughts of a reconciliation for a few months - while we had protection orders from each other.  I had hoped it was just a rage that would be followed by the other side of the love/hate cycle. [... .] But it's been 8 years, never happened. While your case could very well be different, you can't count on it.  If you have that as Plan A, be sure to have Plan B since Plan A isn't a sure solution.

That's a long time. How long can these periods of splitting black last?

She doesn't give me much other options than going for a divorce/LS. She has the kids, and I can't come anywhere near or make contact. I am a little scare of another round of her rage, with false accusations (and from reading the book you mentioned -thank you for that- it can get really bad). I am kind of saying what she probably fears most, that I am abandoning her. But I will do what I need to do. And if we decide to reconcile during the case, I want to be sure she is serious about treatment. Which could mean I ask for a continuance in the case.

[ForeverDad]

Right now I already get signals my wife isn't doing too well (kids not going to school, people worried about her), which make the situation more pressing.

Document this, have a journal or diary.  Keep in contact with the school, be sure they know you're accessible and responsive to them.  I don't know if you need details in your filing for court but do bring with you the latest attendance and grades for the children when you have the initial hearing which usually sets a default custody and parenting schedule.  As you can expect, many courts default to declaring mothers in charge by default.  It's one many fathers have been conditioned to think is 'best', that is, mother cares for the children mostly and the father pays.  Your job is to highlight why you need as much custody and parenting as the court will allow you.  If you have documentation that their attendance of school if dropping from prior years, then it may be enough for the judge. to keep you very involved.

Be aware that 'temporary' orders are anything but temporary in high conflict cases.  My lawyer estimated my case to be 7-9 months with children.  It was a couple weeks shy of two years.  Around here we estimate and average case to be be two years, plus or minus.

Another risk is that temporary orders have a tendency to morph into permanent orders, the judge thinks things were okay in the temp order and then reasons, "I won't change what works."  For that reason, get the very best custody and parenting order schedule order you can from the very start.  Beware of a lawyer that dismisses your concerns and says, "Let it go, don't worry, stay quiet, we'll fix it later."  (In my case, there were two reports during my divorce, a parenting investigation and a custody evaluation, that both reported I should have more time or custody with my preschooler, the court just filed them and proceeded to the next step.  My temp order never changed from first hearing - where my lawyer told me "We'll fix it later" - until the final decree 23.5 months later.)

That's a long time. How long can these periods of splitting black last?

It can be more or less permanent, though there are still cycles of greater and lesser intensity.  Whether it is so in your case, we can't predict.  A lot of cycling is based on the person's need to control and dictate without limit.  But legal involvement and allegations are not a good sign for the long term outcome.  I suspect Legal Separation is a good legal strategy for now in case it will defuse some of the allegations or calm her down.  Right now your priority is to deal with the false or exaggerated allegations and protect your parenting.  Sadly, the marriage was and is dysfunctional and its future is still very much in doubt, so prepare yourself to Let Go if the marriage becomes a casualty.

My divorce was final in 2008.  This year my ex has been less conflictual, but it may be due to the latest change by the court, I got majority parenting time during the school year.  Before this latest change to majority time, nothing changed her sense of entitlement and demand for control, not even me becoming the Legal Guardian in 2011.

[momtara]

I've skipped the responses, but one overriding thing keeps coming back to me:  You are a victim like so many of us and you are so much in her fog that you can't look at this with the right perspective.  You want to work things out with someone who nearly has you in a situation where you will never have custody of your kids, and she will be in a position to abuse them forever, some as young as 4.

I get it.  I keep giving my ex-husband the benefit of the doubt no matter what he does.  I'm in a better position than you, luckily.  But I keep giving away things and giving up things because I hope he will get better or we will work it out.

I'm not saying you can't work it out.  But it seems like what she has is worse than just BPD - and it would be quite a fight to get a diagnosis (bipolar, schizo, etc?) or get her into treatment until she can acknowledge her issues and start to get help.  All the while, you will be suffering and risking being accused of yet more domestic violence. 

If you hope she'll get treatment and you can get back together eventually, nothing wrong with hoping that, but don't start making the mistake many of us make and give in to things just to get her on your side.  In the end it will come back to bite you. 

Temporary orders sometimes become long term ones, especially when it comes to custody.

I don't know the laws or wherther the separation will help or hurt you legally.  You should try to get a cheap consultation with another lawyer or two who specialize in high conflict couples or DV or mental health or what have you.  You might, down the road, request a psych eval for your wife (maybe you can do this if separated) and see a forensic psychologist who can evaluate you and write a recommendation.

Others may have better advice for you, but reading your first post, I thought of myself and how I've tiptoed around my ex and it just meant more trouble down the road because I had to go back and do more things he didn't like, instead of solving problems early.

Every situation is difficult.  There may be hope, but just don't give in too easily.  It is very hard to force someone into treatment.  And I don't want you to do something that causes you to end up not being able to see the kids unsupervised. 

[momtara]

By the way, courts don't like it if someone threatens or attempts suicide, in terms of custody, so if you have proof that she did that, hold onto it.  If you can keep a journal, do that too.  (Don't count on using what you wrote here - write it somewhere else or send an email to yourself).

I don't mean to be negative.  You love her and your family, and who knows, you may be able to get her into treatment.  In terms of legal separation being a good strategy, every state is different and maybe it's a good middle ground for now so you an request evaluators etc. 

However, I just want you to make sure you protect yourself so that in the future you are able to be there for your kids.  Too many dads (and occasionally moms) have lost out forever and spent their life regretting giving in too soon. 

[ForeverDad]

I was let go with no charges filed, but my wife and her mother kept calling the police so I was arrested again.

That you mentioned her mother's involvement is intriguing.  Is her mother an enabler, that is, gullible and easily swayed by your spouse?  Or is her mother similarly consumed by Black-Or-White perceptions of disordered thinking?  It could be that daughter is like mother... .a double whammy for you.  How so?  If your spouse may have feelings to cycle you back, her mother could egg her on to avoid fixing things or reducing the conflict.

I agree with momtara, if you have or can get documentation of her contemplating or threatening suicide, that ought to raise a red flag to the court.  Whether they listen or not is an unknown, what with the pending allegations against you.  How you would get the hospital records submitted to court if you don't have copies is something for the lawyers to tackle.

If this is not family court, then likely they're focusing on the adult behaviors and not so much on parenting behaviors.  Here's how it can get weird, courts act like people can have two split behaviors, a person can be a lousy with adult behaviors but seen as okay with parenting behaviors.  Doesn't make much sense but often is handled that way.  So even if she wants protection from you and gets it temporarily, that doesn't necessarily apply to the children.  In my case, my ex made repeated allegations against me for years but it didn't block my parenting.  Yes, she managed to keep me limited to alternate weekends during the divorce but she failed to block me or limit me to supervised visits.

If the court wants you to submit to an evaluation - a psych eval is generally a quickie, a custody eval is more in depth and focused on parenting - try your best to get it applied to both of you.  Your results won't be perfect, but that's okay, no one in our circumstances comes out perfect.  (I recall I was assessed by a college grad student at my county's social services in a relatively short 2 hour testing/interview and the report concluded "anxiety".  Um, ya think?)  The goal is to get her included in the scrutiny.

The point is that you don't want to always be portrayed as the only person with issues.  You want them to look at both of you.  The problem is that the case is right now focused on just you, that's often the way the system works - perp vs victim.  If the judge responds, "I won't do that, this case is about allegations against you", then try to find a way to get her under the microscope too.  In my case my now-ex and I had mutual temp protection orders against each other:  She was arrested for threat of DV - I had recorded her threats - then as soon as she got out she went to family court and filed for protection from me, so I countered with a TPO there too.  Will your court system allow you to file for protection too?

[Matt]

If the court wants you to submit to an evaluation - a psych eval is generally a quickie, a custody eval is more in depth and focused on parenting - try your best to get it applied to both of you.  Your results won't be perfect, but that's okay, no one in our circumstances comes out perfect.  (I recall I was assessed by a college grad student at my county's social services in a relatively short 2 hour testing/interview and the report concluded "anxiety".  Um, ya think?)  The goal is to get her included in the scrutiny.

In situations like this, I think objective psych evals can be a very good thing.  They were in my case.

Here's how it worked:

My lawyer advised me to file a motion for both a Custody Evaluator - a Ph.D. psychologist appointed by the court.  The CE then asked both parties to do objective psych evals - the MMPI-2.

The CE cost $5,000 and took about eight weeks.  He interviewed both parties, and the kids, and some other people we both suggested, and he got input from my counselor (with my permission).

The MMPI-2 cost each of us $500.  It takes about two hours, and then another week or two for it to be scored by a company somewhere that does that - the psychologist does not score it.

Then the CE wrote his report, which included the results of the psych evals.

As FD suggested, mine wasn't perfect - maybe nobody's is, I don't know.  No disorders, but it showed that I am at somewhat high risk for addiction, which I did not know.  I talked with the psychologist who said, "Just keep doing what you're doing" - in counseling, no drugs and no or moderate alcohol.  I followed his recommendations and the whole thing didn't hurt me at all;  in fact, my willingness to do the evaluation and take the results to heart probably helped me.

My wife's results were very different:  "Multiple psychological disorders".  She reacted by denying it.  Her lawyer talked her into agreeing to the CE's recommendation - "psychotherapy" - and that went into our court order.  But she never got therapy - that was several years ago.

What I like about this approach - especially the MMPI-2 - is that it is objective and more-or-less impossible to fool.  My wife tried to fool it and the results showed she had "presented falsely" (that is, lied).  The test still enabled her diagnosis.  If the psychologist had just talked with us both, without the MMPI-2, she might have fooled him.

So it can be presented to the court as objective information - not accusations or trying to diagnose each other - objective information the court can use in its decisions - very powerful stuff!

Then you reinforce it two ways.  First, by showing that there is destructive behavior which lines up with the test results.  And second, by showing - using scholarly research and maybe an expert witness - that the disorder(s) identified by the MMPI-2 put the kids at high risk long-term.

[Aerial]

Document this, have a journal or diary.  Keep in contact with the school, be sure they know you're accessible and responsive to them.  I don't know if you need details in your filing for court but do bring with you the latest attendance and grades for the children when you have the initial hearing which usually sets a default custody and parenting schedule.

I definately will keep track of these. At the moment she has temporarily custody of the children, and I just noticed she made it difficult for me to access the children's school records. Can she prevent me from accessing their school records?

That you mentioned her mother's involvement is intriguing.  Is her mother an enabler, that is, gullible and easily swayed by your spouse?  Or is her mother similarly consumed by Black-Or-White perceptions of disordered thinking?  It could be that daughter is like mother... .a double whammy for you.  How so?  If your spouse may have feelings to cycle you back, her mother could egg her on to avoid fixing things or reducing the conflict.

Her mother also has the same black-or-white thinking. She is also an enabler, she gives her money, attention or any other support to achieve whatever my wife wants and then abruptly stops providing that support when the situation is over. They both can go pretty far, as far as falsifying pregnancy tests for court. It wasn't until her mother came into the picture that she started acting this way.  I am not sure what my wife's actions are and when her mother starts pulling the strings, or she entirely controlled by her mother? It's kind of funny to see, because those two usually don't last 3 days in the same house before they get into a fight, one of them start screaming and runs away.

It sounds like my wife really needs to depend on someone for her to function. Her mother is actual biologically her grandmother, who did something similar to my wife's maternal mother. Only she was going through a rough time after her first daughter was murdered. My wife doesn't have any contact with her birth mother at the moment. When she came once to support my wife, I was called home by my wife to get her out of the house asap.

Be aware that 'temporary' orders are anything but temporary in high conflict cases.

I am almost positive they tried to prevent me from going to court by keep calling the police. It seems like they will do anything to get their way, not was would be best or even what would be reasonable. I don't see any reason, probably because this is all emotion driven.

When the attorney I went to for a consult, tried to contact my wife to see if she wanted any reconsiliation

If the court wants you to submit to an evaluation - a psych eval is generally a quickie, a custody eval is more in depth and focused on parenting - try your best to get it applied to both of you.  Your results won't be perfect, but that's okay, no one in our circumstances comes out perfect.

I will ask my attorney to advocate for both tests for both of us. It probably would look suspicious too if you scored perfect on the test, because no one is perfect - or like Zen as a counselor once said

It can be more or less permanent, though there are still cycles of greater and lesser intensity.  Whether it is so in your case, we can't predict.  A lot of cycling is based on the person's need to control and dictate without limit.  But legal involvement and allegations are not a good sign for the long term outcome.  I suspect Legal Separation is a good legal strategy for now in case it will defuse some of the allegations or calm her down.  Right now your priority is to deal with the false or exaggerated allegations and protect your parenting. Sadly, the marriage was and is dysfunctional and its future is still very much in doubt, so prepare yourself to Let Go if the marriage becomes a casualty.

It makes most sense to let it go. It appears, she is still going strong in her rage whether it being reinforced by her mother or not.

[Aerial]

I get it.  I keep giving my ex-husband the benefit of the doubt no matter what he does.  I'm in a better position than you, luckily.  But I keep giving away things and giving up things because I hope he will get better or we will work it out.

I feel bad for my wife, since she felt she was given up by her birth mother. Her sister was murdered by her (sister's) stepmother. Then when she was adopted by her grandparents, they had her arrested and put into a mental hospital. She's been put on all kinds of medication, including lithium. Then they send her off to an institute where they break (mostly drugs and alcohol addicted) children down and try to rebuild them. She has still nightmares about this. I was hoping I could be someone she could trust. But of course that doesn't mean I should let everything she does slide.

As far as suicide attempts, she still has huge scars and we have had deputies at our house responding to the suicide call. Some of these attempts were really shocking by the way, I'll never forget those.

I just want you to make sure you protect yourself so that in the future you are able to be there for your kids.  Too many dads (and occasionally moms) have lost out forever and spent their life regretting giving in too soon.

I agree, I want to be there for my kids. I've seen dads who just gave up and they have a no or weak relationship with their kids. And then the child says later: "I love you but I don't consider you my dad."

Thank you!

[momtara]

What a crappy life she had.  I can see why you feel bad for her.  You have to protect yourself too.  You can always tell her, or send an email, making it clear you hope she gets the right help.  (Be careful of making promises tho.)

I still have some feelings for my ex and as a result are still letting him off the hook and making dumb decision  s.  Be firm, not cruel, but firm.

[Aerial]

Unfortunately, she served me with a restraining order. That was 8 hours after we talked to eachother and apologized. I'm not going anywhere near her right now, I'm sure she would do anything to get me.

But I probably would let her get away too.

So it can be presented to the court as objective information - not accusations or trying to diagnose each other - objective information the court can use in its decisions - very powerful stuff!

Then you reinforce it two ways.  First, by showing that there is destructive behavior which lines up with the test results.  And second, by showing - using scholarly research and maybe an expert witness - that the disorder(s) identified by the MMPI-2 put the kids at high risk long-term.

I am really hoping the court will order these tests. I have suspected her lying about certain things, when I ask her about a situation for example then her story changes everytime. So an objective test would be very helpful, more so since there are a lot of emotions and emotional accussations involved.

[Matt]

I am really hoping the court will order these tests. I have suspected her lying about certain things, when I ask her about a situation for example then her story changes everytime. So an objective test would be very helpful, more so since there are a lot of emotions and emotional accussations involved.

Have you filed a motion asking the court to order psych evals?

[Aerial]

It's in my attorney's plan to put this motion in. She also said the court can order the release of medical files, which might be helpful. I also have her DSM assessment, though Axis II hasn't been assessed and it needs to be translated (we lived overseas for 5 years, but came to the States because she couldn't adjust).

[ForeverDad]

At the moment she has temporarily custody of the children, and I just noticed she made it difficult for me to access the children's school records. Can she prevent me from accessing their school records?

It all depends what the order states.  If there is boilerplate language it usually allows the parents access to the children's medical, school and other records.  Basically, if it is not prohibited in the order, then you have normal parental rights and she can't block you.  However, this is not to say she won't try.  It just means you have to try harder and smarter, if they continue to resist then your lawyer may even have to write a letter to the school officials reminding them of compliance with the law.  Do it all nicely of course, you want them eventually on your side.

When I first separated my then-spouse registered my son with the local quasi-county agency for children's therapy.  I was not informed by either her or the agency.  I only found out when our insurance company mailed me a re-certification of services letter.  The agency stonewalled me, sent me a form letter with the check-marked reason being "Likely to endanger the life or safety of the patient or others".  That's when I filed for divorce.  Family court eventually got around to issuing a temporary order, I walked out with the 'standard' father's alternate weekend and an evening in between.  I tried twice more to access his records but still the agency refused to involve me or allow me access to my pre-schooler's records.  I had to file in court for a court order for the release of records, fighting her last ditch claim of her HIPAA privacy information being in his records.  I got the court order and promptly got some 200 pages of records covering the prior 16 months.  From the start she was simply using them as a platform to blacklist me, I had been listed on the intake form as a 'suspected' child abuser.  Hmm, I had a regular (though non-primary) parenting schedule by the court and yet they saw me differently for over a year?  By the way, after the divorce I walked out with equal time, Residential Parent for School Purposes and soon the agency let me take the lead in his therapy and his mother eventually dropped out.  However, her strategy did work for more than a year, a precious year at the beginning of our legal struggle and it was an uphill struggle to overcome.

[Aerial]

The RO refers to a parental plan filed with the court. There is nothing filed... .yet. This will happen when I have my attorney file for the divorce.

Legal separation is a legal strategy, right?

I realized when going through my benefits, another reason for LS is that the spouse could still be on the health care and retirement plan, depending on the terms of the plan. I guess, it could be either a positive or a negative thing.

From the start she was simply using them as a platform to blacklist me, I had been listed on the intake form as a 'suspected' child abuser.  Hmm, I had a regular (though non-primary) parenting schedule by the court and yet they saw me differently for over a year?

They can go pretty far, but that's probably not because she is a pwBPD. Perhaps they go more extreme. Thinking about it, I don't see how it would benefit the children, me or the future of a relationship (even when divorced) if I had done something similar or cut off utilities in my name. I am still struggling with the mortgage payment, since I was on unpaid leave for over a month I am running really low on money. But I'm working on that.

And talking about extremes, I read an email from my W's mother to mine where she accused me of child and spousal abuse. Then she was threatening that if I wouldn’t leave I go to prison and many other consequences I would face. The message was sent over a month ago, when the RO was already in place. At these moments it’s good to have a counselor, someone else to talk to or even to talk here, so it helps (at least for me) to rationalize events or this kind of “warfare.” It’s difficult from time to time, but I can’t afford to lose myself. And an eye for an eye won’t work.

Thank you!

[ForeverDad]

The RO refers to a parental plan filed with the court. There is nothing filed... .yet. This will happen when I have my attorney file for the divorce.

So how much parenting are you getting now?  If it is alternate weekends and an overnight or evening in between, then that is considered a 'standard' default for fathers and there's no huge rush - yet.  If she's allowing less time, blocking your access or demanding supervised visits then it is your fault if you don't file sooner rather than later.  Is there a court case with charges or just a TPO?  The only reason to delay might be if the court case has a real chance of going away or being dismissed.

Legal separation is a legal strategy, right?

I realized when going through my benefits, another reason for LS is that the spouse could still be on the health care and retirement plan, depending on the terms of the plan. I guess, it could be either a positive or a negative thing.

Don't choose Legal Separation just because you want to stay on her insurance.  That's like buying car insurance and a packet of car wash certificates but haven't bought a car yet, priorities are wrong.  Get your own insurance, don't depend on her, avoid leverage that can be used to threaten or coerce you to acquiesce.

Second thought, is it the reverse, are you concerned about her getting your insurance benefits?  In a few words, don't worry about her, worry about yourself and your future.  She is making you into an abusive ogre to the courts and anyone viewing the paperwork trail, fixing that and securing your parenting are the #1 priority.  She's an adult, your children aren't, so she should have far less priority than yourself and the children.  As for insurance, if you're in the USA, there's now government orders social medical insurance that anyone can get, or so the government states.  Meanwhile, US federal law states that during a divorce neither spouse's insurance can be cancelled.  So the difference there between LS & D only happens once there is a file divorce decree.  If your divorce takes a year or even two (as mine did) then neither of you will lose coverage due to the other's actions during that time.  Afterward is another matter, but deal with that once you're there.

Repeat, she and her mother are making this an all-out War, you can't view this as a little squabble that will be resolved later in the day.  Look out for (1) yourself and your future so you have the ability to live your life and be an involved parent, (2) your children and (3) conditionally perhaps your spouse.  Sorry, that's the reality, this is one time you can't put .

[livednlearned]

Aerial, you've been through a lot.

You have the same tone I had when I first talked to my lawyer. Almost like you're a pacifist, despite the bullets whizzing by your head. Wanting to reconcile with the person who is trying to harm you is a classic trait of people who end up in these relationships. We tend to be people who need the whole house dropped on our head before we heed the tornado warning.

You're getting a lot of excellent feedback from people who have walked in your shoes, and each of them have been here a long time reading about stories just like yours. There is a lot of collective wisdom.

What are you taking in from the feedback you've received so far? Do you see priorities and important next steps you need to take?

[ForeverDad]

You have the same tone I had when I first talked to my lawyer. Almost like you're a pacifist, despite the bullets whizzing by your head.

That reference reminds me of an old 1941 movie I watched recently, Sergeant York starring Gary Cooper - A hillbilly sharpshooter drafted in WW1, despite his claim to be a pacifist, ends up becoming a war hero.  When asked how he, a pacifist, was able to reconcile shooting and capturing so many, he replied that he was still set against killing other men, but when he saw the machine guns killing so many soldiers, he had to do it to save lives.  York admitted he wasn't proud of what he had to do in the Great War and didn't want to profit from it with his popularity, he just wanted to go home.

What we're saying is that in order to save yourself - and if you have any children, also safeguard parenting of your children - then you have to do what you must do to accomplish that.  Appeasement and inaction aren't good strategies, as you've found out the hard way.

Wanting to reconcile with the person who is trying to harm you is a classic trait of people who end up in these relationships.  We tend to be people who need the whole house dropped on our head before we heed the tornado warning.

You're getting a lot of excellent feedback from people who have walked in your shoes, and each of them have been here a long time reading about stories just like yours. There is a lot of collective wisdom.

Yeah, living in Oz is no walk in the park.  Time to head back to Kansas, okay?

[Aerial]

You're getting a lot of excellent feedback from people who have walked in your shoes, and each of them have been here a long time reading about stories just like yours. There is a lot of collective wisdom.

What are you taking in from the feedback you've received so far? Do you see priorities and important next steps you need to take?

What we're saying is that in order to save yourself - and if you have any children, also safeguard parenting of your children - then you have to do what you must do to accomplish that.  Appeasement and inaction aren't good strategies, as you've found out the hard way.

I do get a lot of great feedback and appreciate all your help. And yes, I suppose I am dwelling in disbelieve, grief perhaps. Not sure if it makes me a pacifist, but I am avoiding conflict and use negotiations as much as possible. Any form of contention makes me really uncomfortable. And mediate and make consessions helped me with an oppressive father and a submissive mother.

It won't help me here, I agree with that. Nor do I think my wife will change anytime soon, or put effort in her therapy sessions. I can't count on her and she has showed me show many times unfortunately. I know moving on will be the best choice, and I will need to let her go. Gether myself together, and get the children.

I have the finances for my attorney finally together, so I can move on to the next step regarding the case.

So how much parenting are you getting now?  If it is alternate weekends and an overnight or evening in between, then that is considered a 'standard' default for fathers and there's no huge rush - yet.

This will be done when I file for a divorce. The protection order provides her with temporary custody, but allows me visitation rights.

Don't choose Legal Separation just because you want to stay on her insurance.  That's like buying car insurance and a packet of car wash certificates but haven't bought a car yet, priorities are wrong.  Get your own insurance, don't depend on her, avoid leverage that can be used to threaten or coerce you to acquiesce.

She is on my insurance plan. She doesn't have any income of her own.