He kidnapped our son.

[mrsthomps]

I thought for a while that my son's father was slowly getting better. We weren't arguing as much and he seemed to be genuinely happy with his new girlfriend. He was seeing his son regularly and things were going well. He was moving on and leaving me alone. Finally.

That's what I thought anyway! Two weeks ago my mother was watching my son in my home. My ex didn't knock, didn't call, nothing, he just took the door handle off my front door and walked into my home. He picked up my son and left. We filed a report but the prosecuting attorney said that they weren't taking the case because of lack of proof. Whatever.

I know that incident was just to scare me and it worked. I didn't sleep without vivid nightmares of him walking into my house and ending the lives of my children and my husband, just to watch me suffer.

So, fast forward to yesterday. It was my S2's very first day of day care. He was doing great when I dropped him off and he was excited to go. Around 10 am my ex started emailing me non stop, wanting to know where S2 was and who had him. With his erratic behavior, I didn't tell him that he was in daycare. I just ignored it. My ex knew that he was starting daycare soon and he was adamant that he didn't want our son to go. He wanted my mother (who is fighting lung cancer and has too many appts to be dependable right now) to continue to keep him so he could avoid helping with the fees. My ex made the 2 hour drive from his home to our son's daycare, forced his way inside and took our son. He recorded the entire event on his cell phone. The police were called and he refused to cooperate or bring our child back to me. They issued a call to all police in the area and he was stopped about 30 minutes outside of town in the next county.

I followed an officer to where they had him pulled over and he was in handcuffs when I got there. My child was sitting in the grass with a handful of police around him, just entertaining him. They arrested my ex and gave me my son back.

Needless to say, I'm so rattled. I'm upset that he has yet again disrupted our lives and ruined my son's first day of daycare. My child can't even go back to that child care facility and I have to find another one.

I guess my question is, I'm in Missouri and my ex will be out of his 24 hour hold by 3 today. I'm TERRIFIED that he will lose his mind and come after me and my family. If I file for an ex parte, could there be a chance it will be granted since he is being charged with 2 counts of parental kidnapping? His weekend visitation is also supposed to start on Thursday this week and I'm hoping against all odds that the court won't force me to allow my son to go. From what I have read this morning, it looks like my stated will allow a restraining order if there is violence but it doesn't say anything about kidnapping being a factor.

[momtara]

I think your ex and mine are related.  My ex has issues with day care, texts me to ask where our kids are when he knows they're there, etc.  So far no kidnapping, though.

And now I must suspend all politeness and tell you this

YOU ARE SO BEATEN DOWN THAT YOU ARE NOT THINKING CLEARLY.  OF COUSRE YOU CAN GET AN EX PARTE MOTION TO SUSPEND VISITATION OR GET IT SUPERVISED.  HE KIDNAPPED YOUR SON, FORCED HIS WAY INTO DAY CARE AND YOUR HOME, AND THE COPS HAD TO GET INVOLVED.

Yes, I know, these things tend to get downplayed.  He didn't hurt your son (well, certainly emotionally it is weird for the kid to be kidnapped and rescued by police!)  And he may eventually get visitation back, but you have to fight with all your heart and it's possible you can delay it until your son is older.  Ask for suspention of unsupervised visitation pending a psych eval (if he hasn't already had one) with an evaluator both of you agree on.  Maybe a custody eval if you haven't had one.  Throw in other stuff - weekly counseling, maybe others can give you ideas.  You can get an evaluator who takes a loong time to do her work.

Your ex is in jail.  That should be enough to help you show there's a problem right now.  A judge doesn't want to keep seeing this happen!

It's KIDNAPPING.  He could have taken him away from you for years, until he's older.  Your ex will have to go back to court.  You have NO REASON to give him visitation.  If you withhold him a judge would understand, but you can get an order first.

A restraining order might work better but not sure if you have the right kind of case for it, or if it would alter visitation, so you'd have to ask a local attorney.  It might work better, it might not.  There are attorneys who have dealt with spousal kidnappings and other things.

This could have gotten out of hand.  What if he'd gone across the country and you didn't get your son back until he was so old he could barely remember you?

Sometimes I give my exH the benefit of the doubt and the people here have to smack me a bit.  And my ex is not as bad as yours (I think... .mine has never kidnapped, threatened to kidnap, or committed violence... .was yours violent?) 

Did you ever think your ex would do this?  Because I'm wondering what the signs are (I'm constantly worried about mine too.)

Do something now!  And ask for everything.  Next time you may regret not doing anything.

[catnap]

I agree totally with momtara--call an attorney asap.  Ex Parte to suspend visitation until x, y, z and you want professionally supervised visitation.  Ask for protective orders. 

[mrsthomps]

I think your ex and mine are related.  My ex has issues with day care, texts me to ask where our kids are when he knows they're there, etc.  So far no kidnapping, though.

And now I must suspend all politeness and tell you this

YOU ARE SO BEATEN DOWN THAT YOU ARE NOT THINKING CLEARLY.  OF COUSRE YOU CAN GET AN EX PARTE MOTION TO SUSPEND VISITATION OR GET IT SUPERVISED.  HE KIDNAPPED YOUR SON, FORCED HIS WAY INTO DAY CARE AND YOUR HOME, AND THE COPS HAD TO GET INVOLVED.

Yes, I know, these things tend to get downplayed.  He didn't hurt your son (well, certainly emotionally it is weird for the kid to be kidnapped and rescued by police!)  And he may eventually get visitation back, but you have to fight with all your heart and it's possible you can delay it until your son is older.  Ask for suspention of unsupervised visitation pending a psych eval (if he hasn't already had one) with an evaluator both of you agree on.  Maybe a custody eval if you haven't had one.  Throw in other stuff - weekly counseling, maybe others can give you ideas.  You can get an evaluator who takes a loong time to do her work.

Your ex is in jail.  That should be enough to help you show there's a problem right now.  A judge doesn't want to keep seeing this happen!

It's KIDNAPPING.  He could have taken him away from you for years, until he's older.  Your ex will have to go back to court.  You have NO REASON to give him visitation.  If you withhold him a judge would understand, but you can get an order first.

A restraining order might work better but not sure if you have the right kind of case for it, or if it would alter visitation, so you'd have to ask a local attorney.  It might work better, it might not.  There are attorneys who have dealt with spousal kidnappings and other things.

This could have gotten out of hand.  What if he'd gone across the country and you didn't get your son back until he was so old he could barely remember you?

Sometimes I give my exH the benefit of the doubt and the people here have to smack me a bit.  And my ex is not as bad as yours (I think... .mine has never kidnapped, threatened to kidnap, or committed violence... .was yours violent?) 

Did you ever think your ex would do this?  Because I'm wondering what the signs are (I'm constantly worried about mine too.)

Do something now!  And ask for everything.  Next time you may regret not doing anything.

Thank you! I think I just need some validation. I feel like my parents downplay this entire thing because they don't witness it first hand.

As far as signs, his behavior changed drastically yesterday. He became very confrontational and erratic. He kept asking where our son was and when I said he was in a safe place and with a caregiver he freaked out and wanted to know right then where he was. He kept bombarding me with emails and his tone kept escalating. What's weird for me, I guess, is that yesterday I allowed an extra visit so he could go to a fall festival with my ex's other children. I gifted him extra parenting time. The exchange went VERY smoothly and there weren't any issues. When the police contacted his ex wife while trying to find him yesterday she stated that I'm the crazy one and my ex just wants to see his son.

[ForeverDad]

You need a court-ordered custody and a parenting schedule.  It's a Boundary you need.  You're no longer idolized and so now you're not seen as an Authority figure, that's why you need the Real Authority - family court - to set the rules and schedules.  It's okay to start that by filing for a TRO or TPO on an ex parte basis until you both can appear in court and present your cases.  Then the court can make its decision to extend or set a modified temp order while custody and parenting is resolved, a process that can easily take months.

Repeat, as the others have stated, do not hesitate to seek an ex parte temporary order quickly so more incidents are avoided.  It will also serve to get the ball rolling on fixing or establishing custody, parenting, boundaries, etc.

Also, you need to have your home declared Your Residence and that he cannot ever have any uninvited access inside or risk arrest and prosecution.  Whether he will get any consequences for the recent home invasion and abduction, I don't know.  And be very aware that it's not your obligation to let him off the hook, either.  Remember, you're not being a meanie nor are you unreasonable, you're setting boundaries.  And he has to learn that him violating Boundaries and Orders results in Consequences.  (Whether he will ever learn from his consequences is debatable and is his problem.)

Right now parental rights are loosely defined and largely unspecified.  (If you two aren't married, then depending on your state's laws you likely have more rights than him at this point.)  Sadly, you do need a court order or else you won't have stability and safety in your life.

Beware of being generous or overly fair when negotiating on terms of his parenting.  Terms you Gift him now you will likely Regret in the years to come.  That is a weakness of us Nice Guys and Nice Gals who think that by being overly fair and overly whatever that our niceness will be Reciprocated.  In our high conflict cases that doesn't happen, at least not consistently.

When the police contacted his ex wife while trying to find him yesterday she stated that I'm the crazy one and my ex just wants to see his son.

This is typical.  People with BPD will view all past and ended relationships as abusive.  It's Blaming and Blame-Shifting.  Otherwise they'd be admitting they are part of the problem.  They can't do that, the Denial is that strong.  That said, we in remote peer support can't guess whether she was just misinformed and gullible or whether she's enabling him.  Time will tell but for now be cautious in contact with her.

[mrsthomps]

You need a court-ordered custody and a parenting schedule.  It's a Boundary you need.  You're no longer idolized and so now you're not seen as an Authority figure, that's why you need the Real Authority - family court - to set the rules and schedules.  It's okay to start that by filing for a TRO or TPO on an ex parte basis until you both can appear in court and present your cases.  Then the court can make its decision to extend or set a modified temp order while custody and parenting is resolved, a process that can easily take months.

Repeat, as the others have stated, do not hesitate to seek an ex parte temporary order quickly so more incidents are avoided.  It will also serve to get the ball rolling on fixing or establishing custody, parenting, boundaries, etc.

Also, you need to have your home declared Your Residence and that he cannot ever have any uninvited access inside or risk arrest and prosecution.  Whether he will get any consequences for the recent home invasion and abduction, I don't know.  And be very aware that it's not your obligation to let him off the hook, either.  Remember, you're not being a meanie nor are you unreasonable, you're setting boundaries.  And he has to learn that him violating Boundaries and Orders results in Consequences.  (Whether he will ever learn from his consequences is debatable and is his problem.)

Right now parental rights are loosely defined and largely unspecified.  (If you two aren't married, then depending on your state's laws you likely have more rights than him at this point.)  Sadly, you do need a court order or else you won't have stability and safety in your life.

When the police contacted his ex wife while trying to find him yesterday she stated that I'm the crazy one and my ex just wants to see his son.

This is typical.  People with BPD will view all past and ended relationships as abusive.  It's Blaming and Blame-Shifting.  Otherwise they'd be admitting they are part of the problem.  They can't do that, the Denial is that strong.  That said, we in remote peer support can't guess whether she was just misinformed and gullible or whether she's enabling him.  Time will tell but for now be cautious in contact with her.

We have a pretty set, clear parenting plan but we follow it very loosely. He has moved 5 or 6 times and we have had to verbally modify everything with each move. It was costing way too much money to go back and forth to mediation every time. I'm going to file on my lunch break and hopefully there isn't any issue with it being granted quickly!

[ForeverDad]

Better to stick to the terms of any orders with fewer exceptions.  Is he consistently high conflict or instead erratic but still easily triggered?  What we see as flexibility the pwBPD sees as weakness inviting more and more pushing.  The boilerplate in most orders are standardized for the average case, not the high conflict or erratic ones.  So clauses such as "mutually agreed exchange locations" or "reasonable telephone contact" invite challenges and pushing of the limits.

Be sure to list the fact that he invaded your home and another time he invaded your day care.  While he as parent may have had the right to access the daycare for a visit, he definitely went about it wrong and went way too far.  He was rightly arrested, both for it not being his parenting time and the way she snatched the child.  (I bet daycare didn't like that incident and "withdrew services" - that happened to me 3 times, once with daycare, once with pediatrician and once with another daycare who filed against my ex for harassment.)

Don't feel sorry for him, let him face his consequences.  Whether he learns from them or not, he still needs consequences or else he'll just feel even more entitled and justified to do whatever he wishes.

[momtara]

Yes, unfortunately, when you loosen boundaries, things worsen.  I've tried to give extra time too.

I wonder why he became unhinged.  Was there a trigger?

My exH used to go on these texting jags early in the divorce and ask where the kids were, and claim day care didn't call him back.  He never went over there though.

You can post on avvo.com to find some local lawyers, and maybe get recommendations from local moms in your area.  The ones who deal with domestic violence may have a better idea of your rights re restraining orders etc.

Question - has he ever been violent or made a threat?

[mrsthomps]

Yes, unfortunately, when you loosen boundaries, things worsen.  I've tried to give extra time too.

I wonder why he became unhinged.  Was there a trigger?

My exH used to go on these texting jags early in the divorce and ask where the kids were, and claim day care didn't call him back.  He never went over there though.

You can post on avvo.com to find some local lawyers, and maybe get recommendations from local moms in your area.  The ones who deal with domestic violence may have a better idea of your rights re restraining orders etc.

Question - has he ever been violent or made a threat?

About a year ago he admitted himself into a mental health facility for attempting suicide on two occasions. He threatened my life, my husband's life, etc. He has broken into my home more than once. He threw me from a moving vehicle. He vandalized my husband's vehicle. And the list goes on.

Typically he is triggered if I refuse to give him something. Our health insurance recently changed and I provided him with our son's new insurance card. He contacted our insurance company and pretended to be my DH. He was able to obtain some very personal info from them and flaunted it in my face that he had that control. We are also supposed to be going to mediation to discuss vaccines. My ex has double vaccinated my son in the past and its EXTREMELY stupid to do that and dangerous. I want to forego vax until our son is older because of this and my ex stated he was going to just take my insurance card and run up a huge hospital tab if I didn't let him vax our kid. What the heck.

Yesterday it was a similar issue. He wanted my son's medical records. After the insurance card incident, I refused. I also refused to discuss it outside of mediation. That's when he went batty.

I have an attorney that I've left a message with. He's really good with psychos like this. Right now, I'm going to push for my ex to have to cover my attorney fees because I already owe this guy like $2k from the last failed motion of contempt that my ex tried to file against me. Grr!

[mrsthomps]

Better to stick to the terms of any orders with fewer exceptions.  Is he consistently high conflict or instead erratic but still easily triggered?  What we see as flexibility the pwBPD sees as weakness inviting more and more pushing.  The boilerplate in most orders are standardized for the average case, not the high conflict or erratic ones.  So clauses such as "mutually agreed exchange locations" or "reasonable telephone contact" invite challenges and pushing of the limits.

Be sure to list the fact that he invaded your home and another time he invaded your day care.  While he as parent may have had the right to access the daycare for a visit, he definitely went about it wrong and went way too far.  He was rightly arrested, both for it not being his parenting time and the way she snatched the child.  (I bet daycare didn't like that incident and "withdrew services" - that happened to me 3 times, once with daycare, once with pediatrician and once with another daycare who filed against my ex for harassment.)

Don't feel sorry for him, let him face his consequences.  Whether he learns from them or not, he still needs consequences or else he'll just feel even more entitled and justified to do whatever he wishes.

I don't really know what to classify him as. He's high functioning but high conflict, yet occasionally his false personality breaks down and we can see the cracks of erratic behavior.

We have to argue about EVERYTHING. If I tell him that I want him to meet me at my house for pick up, he starts a fight. If he thinks things are going to well and we're communicating, he starts a fight. He says and does things to try to prove that I'm not getting along with him. He will say things like, "So are you saying that I can't see my son and you're refusing to comply with the court order?" When in reality I simply told him that he will have to pick up our kid from my mom because I'm working late. He accused my mother of molesting our son just so he wouldn't have to drive an extra 5 minutes to get him from her.

[momtara]

Well, this is actually a good thing:

-Your son is back with you unharmed.

-Your ex did the worst things he could have possibly done.  You have a history of some damn serious stuff.  And kidnapping?  The cops had to come?  This is really bad stuff.

-Now you may be able to get sole custody or at least supervised visitation.  :)on't back down - let them keep pushing court back and you can keep it in place until your son is much older and can take better care of himself.  He's young now.  He can't do it.

People say I take things lightly, but compared to this, my ex is a saint.  We all get a bit removed from the situation and downplay it.  This is a serious history of seriously bad and dangerous behavior.  Suicide.  Medical problems.  Extra vaccines.  Breaching your confidentiality (probably a serious crime.)  Threats of violence.  And now kidnapping in front of law enforcement, day care, etc.  Any one of these things should have been enough for supervised visitation already.

Should your ex someday become stable, years from now, he can have the relationship.  Heck, he can have it now in a supervised setting.  This is a good thing - it could have gotten so much worse.

[ForeverDad]

It sounds like you ought to record contact with him due to his claims, rages, demands, ultimatums, insinuations and admissions.  Many devices today can record.  (Of course never shove anything in his face, just document your interactions.)  Otherwise, most of his poor behaviors will be limited to "he-said, she-said" and ignored as 'hearsay'.  I'm not saying it would become actionable documentation, but if your statements of his actions and behaviors were ever contested then you'd have proof otherwise.

[livednlearned]

It's really alarming when these things happen, and it's important that you use these experiences to the fullest advantage so you have even better protections in place the next time he tries this. Don't second-guess yourself. Your instincts are good -- ignore your parents. They probably have been invalidating your emotions your entire life (even if they are nice people) because that's all they know. Mine did the same thing. When my ex had a psychotic episode and I thought he was going to take his own life and my son's, my father's response was that N/BPDx seemed to be in a huff.  

FD and momtara are giving you really clear advice. I don't have much to add except to say that it's so important that you don't give your ex additional time. That will work against you in court. It's not even remotely normal behavior what your ex did -- no court, no law enforcement, no psychologist, no normal person would see it as anything but harmful to the child. He's a loose cannon and you have to treat him that way.

Many of us have either been beaten down, or are scared to rock the boat, or were very passive to begin with. When it is clear to others that your ex is ill (he's been hospitalized, the cops arrested him, etc.), you can't be seen as the "reasonable" parent who is trying to encourage a healthy relationship with the child's father. You have to go into protector mode and follow the plan you have to the letter, no deviating. Otherwise the court will see you as having issues of your own. I got this lecture from my own L four years ago when she said, after I told her the worst parts of the marriage, "You have to think really hard about how a judge is going to view your behavior. Why, if you knew his drinking is this bad, and he does these abusive things, are you endangering the very same child you say you want to protect?" I was waffling about whether or not to leave, and I needed a cold splash of water to realize that I was enabling the abuse my son was experiencing.

An ex parte motion is almost always granted. It's the hearing that follows when you present your case that you have to focus on. Try to get that hearing delayed as long as possible so you can establish status quo of having your son.

It's hard to see it now, but this is going to work in your favor. When my crisis was happening, I remember FD and Matt and others saying the same thing, but I was so freaked out I couldn't see it. I'm glad they were so calm and logical because it helped bring my thinking into focus, and made me realize it would work out, as awful as it was to go through. I know have full custody of my son.

We're here for you -- it's such a common fear that many of us experience daily, we really do understand.



LnL

[mrsthomps]

It's really alarming when these things happen, and it's important that you use these experiences to the fullest advantage so you have even better protections in place the next time he tries this. Don't second-guess yourself. Your instincts are good -- ignore your parents. They probably have been invalidating your emotions your entire life (even if they are nice people) because that's all they know. Mine did the same thing. When my ex had a psychotic episode and I thought he was going to take his own life and my son's, my father's response was that N/BPDx seemed to be in a huff.  

FD and momtara are giving you really clear advice. I don't have much to add except to say that it's so important that you don't give your ex additional time. That will work against you in court. It's not even remotely normal behavior what your ex did -- no court, no law enforcement, no psychologist, no normal person would see it as anything but harmful to the child. He's a loose cannon and you have to treat him that way.

Many of us have either been beaten down, or are scared to rock the boat, or were very passive to begin with. When it is clear to others that your ex is ill (he's been hospitalized, the cops arrested him, etc.), you can't be seen as the "reasonable" parent who is trying to encourage a healthy relationship with the child's father. You have to go into protector mode and follow the plan you have to the letter, no deviating. Otherwise the court will see you as having issues of your own. I got this lecture from my own L four years ago when she said, after I told her the worst parts of the marriage, "You have to think really hard about how a judge is going to view your behavior. Why, if you knew his drinking is this bad, and he does these abusive things, are you endangering the very same child you say you want to protect?" I was waffling about whether or not to leave, and I needed a cold splash of water to realize that I was enabling the abuse my son was experiencing.

An ex parte motion is almost always granted. It's the hearing that follows when you present your case that you have to focus on. Try to get that hearing delayed as long as possible so you can establish status quo of having your son.

It's hard to see it now, but this is going to work in your favor. When my crisis was happening, I remember FD and Matt and others saying the same thing, but I was so freaked out I couldn't see it. I'm glad they were so calm and logical because it helped bring my thinking into focus, and made me realize it would work out, as awful as it was to go through. I know have full custody of my son.

We're here for you -- it's such a common fear that many of us experience daily, we really do understand.



LnL

Thank you for the response!

I filed for the ex parte today and it was not granted. They gave me a hearing date of Oct 7th. Mehh. Which means that my ex will have at least one schedule visitation between now and then. I'm terrified to let my son go with his father but I know that my ex will contact the police if I don't allow him to go. I don't even know what to do until that court date.

[momtara]

Are these the same cops who were involved when he kidnapped your son?

Let's say you just don't answer the door when he comes.  What happens next?  What is to prevent him from going back to day care to kidnap him again?  If there are no restraints in place, how does anyone prevent that?

Can you go to the cops and ask for a restraining order?

[mrsthomps]

Are these the same cops who were involved when he kidnapped your son?

Let's say you just don't answer the door when he comes.  What happens next?  What is to prevent him from going back to day care to kidnap him again?  If there are no restraints in place, how does anyone prevent that?

Can you go to the cops and ask for a restraining order?

I filed for a restraining order, it's all part of the ex parte. It was denied until a court date. The police that he will contact won't be the same officers (different towns). And daycare dropped us. So my mother is watching them at my house for now.

[momtara]

day care dropped you? Heavens!  there are so few affordable day cares in my town.  I couldn't bear it if mine did that.  I'd have to go to court and get him to stop bothering them.

I don't know the answer - seems like the judge didn't think it was serious.  if you are wealthy you could have a PI tail him this weekend.

definitely post on avvo.com or talk to someone reliable who knows these things - even ask for a consult with a lawyer by phone and see if you can get one fast.  you may have to say you're between lawyers.

do you feel like he will kidnap your son this weekend if he takes him?  what does your instinct tell you?

[mrsthomps]

day care dropped you? Heavens!  there are so few affordable day cares in my town.  I couldn't bear it if mine did that.  I'd have to go to court and get him to stop bothering them.

I don't know the answer - seems like the judge didn't think it was serious.  if you are wealthy you could have a PI tail him this weekend.

definitely post on avvo.com or talk to someone reliable who knows these things - even ask for a consult with a lawyer by phone and see if you can get one fast.  you may have to say you're between lawyers.

do you feel like he will kidnap your son this weekend if he takes him?  what does your instinct tell you?

I don't think he will legitimately kidnap him over the weekend. HOWEVER, I feel like letting him go ahead and take him will make him feel like he has won and there isn't anything I can do about it. I'm going to just tell him that he can't have him and he can file another contempt motion if he doesn't like it (nicely, of course).

[livednlearned]

It's really alarming when these things happen, and it's important that you use these experiences to the fullest advantage so you have even better protections in place the next time he tries this. Don't second-guess yourself. Your instincts are good -- ignore your parents. They probably have been invalidating your emotions your entire life (even if they are nice people) because that's all they know. Mine did the same thing. When my ex had a psychotic episode and I thought he was going to take his own life and my son's, my father's response was that N/BPDx seemed to be in a huff.  

FD and momtara are giving you really clear advice. I don't have much to add except to say that it's so important that you don't give your ex additional time. That will work against you in court. It's not even remotely normal behavior what your ex did -- no court, no law enforcement, no psychologist, no normal person would see it as anything but harmful to the child. He's a loose cannon and you have to treat him that way.

Many of us have either been beaten down, or are scared to rock the boat, or were very passive to begin with. When it is clear to others that your ex is ill (he's been hospitalized, the cops arrested him, etc.), you can't be seen as the "reasonable" parent who is trying to encourage a healthy relationship with the child's father. You have to go into protector mode and follow the plan you have to the letter, no deviating. Otherwise the court will see you as having issues of your own. I got this lecture from my own L four years ago when she said, after I told her the worst parts of the marriage, "You have to think really hard about how a judge is going to view your behavior. Why, if you knew his drinking is this bad, and he does these abusive things, are you endangering the very same child you say you want to protect?" I was waffling about whether or not to leave, and I needed a cold splash of water to realize that I was enabling the abuse my son was experiencing.

An ex parte motion is almost always granted. It's the hearing that follows when you present your case that you have to focus on. Try to get that hearing delayed as long as possible so you can establish status quo of having your son.

It's hard to see it now, but this is going to work in your favor. When my crisis was happening, I remember FD and Matt and others saying the same thing, but I was so freaked out I couldn't see it. I'm glad they were so calm and logical because it helped bring my thinking into focus, and made me realize it would work out, as awful as it was to go through. I know have full custody of my son.

We're here for you -- it's such a common fear that many of us experience daily, we really do understand.



LnL

Thank you for the response!

I filed for the ex parte today and it was not granted. They gave me a hearing date of Oct 7th. Mehh. Which means that my ex will have at least one schedule visitation between now and then. I'm terrified to let my son go with his father but I know that my ex will contact the police if I don't allow him to go. I don't even know what to do until that court date.

That is bananas! I've had three ex parte emergency orders granted for far less than this. Wow. Did you have an attorney file it?

[mrsthomps]

It's really alarming when these things happen, and it's important that you use these experiences to the fullest advantage so you have even better protections in place the next time he tries this. Don't second-guess yourself. Your instincts are good -- ignore your parents. They probably have been invalidating your emotions your entire life (even if they are nice people) because that's all they know. Mine did the same thing. When my ex had a psychotic episode and I thought he was going to take his own life and my son's, my father's response was that N/BPDx seemed to be in a huff.  

FD and momtara are giving you really clear advice. I don't have much to add except to say that it's so important that you don't give your ex additional time. That will work against you in court. It's not even remotely normal behavior what your ex did -- no court, no law enforcement, no psychologist, no normal person would see it as anything but harmful to the child. He's a loose cannon and you have to treat him that way.

Many of us have either been beaten down, or are scared to rock the boat, or were very passive to begin with. When it is clear to others that your ex is ill (he's been hospitalized, the cops arrested him, etc.), you can't be seen as the "reasonable" parent who is trying to encourage a healthy relationship with the child's father. You have to go into protector mode and follow the plan you have to the letter, no deviating. Otherwise the court will see you as having issues of your own. I got this lecture from my own L four years ago when she said, after I told her the worst parts of the marriage, "You have to think really hard about how a judge is going to view your behavior. Why, if you knew his drinking is this bad, and he does these abusive things, are you endangering the very same child you say you want to protect?" I was waffling about whether or not to leave, and I needed a cold splash of water to realize that I was enabling the abuse my son was experiencing.

An ex parte motion is almost always granted. It's the hearing that follows when you present your case that you have to focus on. Try to get that hearing delayed as long as possible so you can establish status quo of having your son.

It's hard to see it now, but this is going to work in your favor. When my crisis was happening, I remember FD and Matt and others saying the same thing, but I was so freaked out I couldn't see it. I'm glad they were so calm and logical because it helped bring my thinking into focus, and made me realize it would work out, as awful as it was to go through. I know have full custody of my son.

We're here for you -- it's such a common fear that many of us experience daily, we really do understand.



LnL

Thank you for the response!

I filed for the ex parte today and it was not granted. They gave me a hearing date of Oct 7th. Mehh. Which means that my ex will have at least one schedule visitation between now and then. I'm terrified to let my son go with his father but I know that my ex will contact the police if I don't allow him to go. I don't even know what to do until that court date.

That is bananas! I've had three ex parte emergency orders granted for far less than this. Wow. Did you have an attorney file it?

No attorney, in my county you have to file yourself, in person, at the court house. I'm not sure what to do at this point, honestly. I even included a long timeline that showed the continuing harassment, both instances of child abduction, etc.

[momtara]

There is a concern that if he takes him over the weekend and doesn't do anything wrong, it may show that he is capable of acting rational.  You don't want that.

"I'm going to just tell him that he can't have him and he can file another contempt motion if he doesn't like it (nicely, of course)."

That sounds like a good idea to me.  You don't have a history of withholding him.  It's just this once.

Still, I'd try to ask a local lawyer.

Livedandlearned, ex partes are different everywhere, as you mentioned before... .in my state, you can get a restraining order really easily just based on your own testimony.  But for an ex parte motion, you have to file something showing there is a real danger if it's not granted right away.  I think in your case, you'd get it easily in my state.  In your state, sounds like they are really difficult - beyond reason!

You can always tell your ex that you are withholding him based on legal advice or something, if it won't come back to bite you.  Or maybe say he's sick or something. 

[ForeverDad]

Or you had to go out of town last minute.  Got any family or friends you can visit?  A wedding, anniversary, trip to see the grandparents, etc?  I feel more comfortable with that one better than just refusing or declining an exchange.

Generally in court there aren't huge consequences to a one-time incident for failed exchange.  Yes, he might file a   Sort of... .Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Sorry that I can't tell you what to do.  My ex failed to make exchanges sometimes for the mid-week evening visit when we had a temporary order and my lawyer didn't even bother bringing it up in court, it wasn't at the top of the list of worries and complaints.  Whether he will squawk about and how much, I don't know.  But his taking/snatching your child on your parenting time - and even the police getting involved! - ought to be of greater concern to the court and garner a stronger tongue-lashing than a failed exchange.  However, no one can guarantee how a judge might handle either one.

[livednlearned]

That's a good point that FD makes about motions for contempt. They do tend to be treated like parking tickets. Which is one of those things that will drive you nuts when you're the one filing the motion, but then it works in your favor when it's the opposite. And from what I can tell, there is no scorecard. Meaning, if he files 10 against you and you file one against him, it doesn't matter. He doesn't win.

My L, who is a really good lawyer, said to always do what I felt was best for S13, and that has worked out well. But she has also protected me in court, and I've had a good judge.

The more you focus on your kid, and the less you focus on your ex, the better it typicall works out. I had a parenting coordinator involved in my case, and she ended up testifying in court. Her words were, "LnL focuses on the well-being of the child consistently and is conscientious and careful about decisions she makes in regard to the minor child. Mr. N/BPDx is impulsive, reckless, and despite repeated warnings about his conduct and the effects on the minor child, he can neither control his actions nor seems remotely interested in how his actions inflict harm. He is consistently focused on resentments directed toward the mother, while the mother is consistently focused on the well-being of the child."

Something like that.

[momtara]

So how did it go?

[mrsthomps]

So how did it go?

Well, it was an uneventful weekend! FINALLY . I emailed my ex and told him that he couldn't take our son because we had a funeral to go to. (It wasn't a lie, my husband's friend from college died last week and we were out of town all weekend for the funeral, we just didn't take the kiddo. He stayed with my mom.) My ex threw a HUGE fit and started telling me that the charges from the parental kidnapping had been dropped. I called the prosecuting attorney to find out and she told me, straight up, that they hadn't even gotten to her yet but that my ex had called her at least a dozen times demanding the tape from his arrest and to know what she was going to do when they went to court. It was his typical display of superiority. I haven't heard from him since last week. My attorney was shocked that they denied the ex parte.

[sanemom]

It is so frustrating when these people get away with so much with so few consequences.  I am glad you got your son back; hope he doesn't try that again!

[momtara]

I end up believing those kinds of things from my ex too - it's good you called and didn't take his word for it.  I am only beginning to fully realize the extent of the lying that goes on.  I'm as shocked as your lawyer that they denied the ex parte! 

Anyway, good job keeping your son with you.  Please let us know what happens next.  Seems like your ex will make things worse for himself.  Maybe he knows deep down he can't care for your son and is sabotaging himself.

[livednlearned]

My attorney was shocked that they denied the ex parte.

Does your attorney have a theory for why this happened?

This seems important.

My ex -- even as recently as today -- accused me of child abduction and kidnapping. He made those allegations repeatedly throughout the last four years. The judge got very heated in one of our hearings a few years ago and shut N/BPDx down, and would no longer allow him to use either of those terms because he said N/BPDx was distorting the legal definition.

Could it be that your ex parte was denied because it referred to kidnapping and child abduction without meeting the legal definition?

It's different in different states, so this is pure speculation. Usually the family court system doesn't act without some reason. Even if most of the time those reasons don't always make sense to us.

[mrsthomps]

My attorney was shocked that they denied the ex parte.

Does your attorney have a theory for why this happened?

This seems important.

My ex -- even as recently as today -- accused me of child abduction and kidnapping. He made those allegations repeatedly throughout the last four years. The judge got very heated in one of our hearings a few years ago and shut N/BPDx down, and would no longer allow him to use either of those terms because he said N/BPDx was distorting the legal definition.

Could it be that your ex parte was denied because it referred to kidnapping and child abduction without meeting the legal definition?

It's different in different states, so this is pure speculation. Usually the family court system doesn't act without some reason. Even if most of the time those reasons don't always make sense to us.

My L thinks it was denied because I filed for myself instead of in my son's name. I didn't think it would make a difference but my L thinks that's the only reason it was denied.

[momtara]

oh, that's a good reason for a judge to put a kid at risk - a technicality!  guess that's why we need lawyers, unfortunately