Iphone text messages in court? Anyone had them dug up?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My atty said he didn't want to email me anything to my work address since there is precedent for work emails to be supena'd and used against me.  Of course my uBPDstbx has a history of email spying so I know there is a desire to dig and poke around.  I imagine it's not terribly easy to get a cellular company or Apple's Imessage to release contents, but I have no idea... .

I bought the phone with marital money, but my work pays for the monthly charges (same for my wife's phone) in case that makes a difference.

I am curious if anyone knows the likelihood or even possibility of text messages or phone call records etc. being used in court as well.  Thanks.

[Heartandsole]

My atty said he didn't want to email me anything to my work address since there is precedent for work emails to be supena'd and used against me.  Of course my uBPDstbx has a history of email spying so I know there is a desire to dig and poke around.  I imagine it's not terribly easy to get a cellular company or Apple's Imessage to release contents, but I have no idea... .

I bought the phone with marital money, but my work pays for the monthly charges (same for my wife's phone) in case that makes a difference.

I am curious if anyone knows the likelihood or even possibility of text messages or phone call records etc. being used in court as well.  Thanks.

[scraps66]

In some counties I now think text messaging is "admissible" in court though I do think, and like, e-mails better as they are easier to document and my ex abuses texting.

My ex also tries to use text messages alone in court and fails to produce my e-mail messages that may have superseded a ridiculous text message.  Another reason I would like ot do away with texting in addition to the impulsivity that texting promotes.

I think a good rule regardless of the media used, jsut don't put anything in writing that could be construed or twisted as abusive or harassment.  I know, I know, in BP land EVERYTHING is abusive - I'm not abusing you, YOU'RE ABUSING ME!   

[Heartandsole]

Just to be clear, I don't care about the ridiculousness between me and her... .

I am concerned about my uBPDw and her atty getting their hands on text messages between me and my atty or me talking about my case over text to family etc.  Some sensitive info there and I don't want to stress about it.

I am in the USA BTW.

[Matt]

Any communication between an attorney and his client is privileged and cannot be subpoenaed by the other party or used in court.

Maybe you misunderstood your attorney.  If he thinks an e-mail from him to you can be used in court, he needs to go back to law school.

Communications between you and your ex, I think it's best to use e-mail, for a number of reasons, including that e-mails leave a very good paper trail - with dates and times, etc.  Excellent for court.

[Heartandsole]

Thanks for your replies so far. 

Again, for the sake of super clarity... .

I'm most interested in knowing how probable or possible is it that my uBPDstbxw will be able to get her hands on my texts.  I know even if you delete them, they are "forever" somewhere.  I could care less if the NSA wants to read them as long as they keep them to themselves.  I'm probably entertaining some folks in that underground bunker... .

On the other hand, I am receiving some texts that it would not be funny or helpful for a peaceful resolution to my divorce if they are dragged out of the bowels of some server somewhere.

I repeat- this is not about "can I use SMS in court" and forget "atty privaleged communications" this is about what happens IF a disordered person tells here atty "I want to see all his text messages and phone calls"  How private and secure are they.  I've got plenty of threads talking about what a whackjob she is, and just like I don't want her knowing my identity here, I want to be able to to text with confidence.

Everytime I hit "SEND" on some topics, I think to myself well, I hope I never have to explain that one... .I don't want to get paranoid!

Thanks everyone.

Has anyone had this happen?

[Matt]

You're wise to think about this, and if you are creating any record that you wouldn't like to have to explain, you might want to think twice about that - maybe you would be wise to just not write down anything that might look bad.

If your wife, acting on her own or with help from somebody other than your attorney, somehow found your texts or e-mails, she might cause some chaos.  She could share them with your family, for example, or post them on Facebook.  I think she would have to be pretty skilled, or get help from somebody pretty skilled, to get your e-mails or text messages without your permission.  (And I assume that you have a passcode on your phone and computer, and you don't leave those where she can have access to them anyhow.)

If your wife asked her attorney to help her get that information, I think it's super-unlikely that her attorney would help, because that could get the attorney in a lot of trouble.  Even if your wife tried to hire a private investigator, in my state PIs are licensed, and they can lose their license if they do something illegal like breaking into someone's computer or cell phone.  (I know, it happens all the time on TV, but I have employed a PI, and they have very clear rules which they will not violate, at least in states where they are licensed.)

So if you use reasonable caution I think there is very little risk that your wife will get access to your texts or e-mails.  And if she does, and if she does anything harmful with them, she may be putting herself at risk, both in your civil (divorce) case, and also maybe at risk for criminal charges.

By the way, some members here worry about the other party reading what we write on this site.  My understanding is, that if you don't use any identifying information, like your real name, or someone else's name, or what town you live in, there is almost no risk.  You have to also make sure to sign out of the site every time, and your computer should be passworded so nobody else can see your stuff, and if possible keep it away from your wife and anybody else you don't trust.  When we take those basic precautions, I haven't heard of anybody here having any problems with the other party reading their posts.

[Heartandsole]

Thanks Matt.  My wife actually was spying on my emails before I changed the passwords and found the welcome private messages to this forum and was reading my posts for a while (different username).  That is how she found out that I think she has BPD.  At the time I was on the staying boards and now on this one!   I actually knew she was reading for a bit and used that to my advantage to tell her a few things that I wouldn't say to her face... . 

Anyway, I'm enjoying some sms conversations and yes, we are seperated, yes I have my phone password protected, yes I am deleting SMS converstions regularly, but I also know at least in criminal cases it seems like these things get pulled up from never, never land.  Maybe its just on the CSI type shows or just in my mind.   Thanks for putting me at ease a bit. 

Any other thoughts and suggestions on this from the forum is welcomed.  I know with this crowd, if it is possible, it will have happened to one of us!

[catnap]

Apple’s iMessage encryption foils law enforcement, Justice Department complains

www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/apples-imessage-encryption-foils-law-enforcement-justice-department-complains/2013/04/05/f4a6b66e-9d68-11e2-a2db-efc5298a95e1_story.html

How to Retrieve Deleted Text Messages on iPhone 4/4s/5/5c/5s

imobie.com/support/retrieve-deleted-text-messages-on-iphone.htm

From what little reading I did, it appears without your personal phone in someone else's possession (depending on model of iPhone) messages are not retrievable. 

[whirlpoollife]

By the way, some members here worry about the other party reading what we write on this site. 

[scraps66]

One thing I've learned and this may be unique even for family court in my jurisdiction, the people in court really don't like digging this deep.  I have a difficult time just presenting, not to mention enforcing, violations of the court orders.  So take that for what it is worth, but, what I've also had proven out, a BP will take hold, present, misinterpret, distort, and use in court, all of these things if permitted.  If permitted, all of this stuff when discussed in court consumes time from things that really do matter, and, all this BS can piss the judge, Master, etc. off so bad that you don't even get to discuss what really matters.

I think the best advice provided was simply to not put anything in writing, e-mail, text, napkin, anything you feel could be sued against you.  I'm also amazed that you've found an attorney that will text.  The attorneys that I've used won't even provide their cell numbers.  Beyond that, I don't recommend texting with an attorney of all people.     

[ForeverDad]

But, what I've also had proven out, a BP will take hold, present, misinterpret, distort, and use in court, all of these things if permitted.  If permitted, all of this stuff when discussed in court consumes time from things that really do matter, and, all this BS can piss the judge, Master, etc. off so bad that you don't even get to discuss what really matters.

My ex made so many emotionally charged allegations and claims, presented as 'facts' but unsubstantiated, that she was able to sabotage getting much done in court.  To modify an old saying, "Where there's smoke, surely there must be fire!"  The ex is blowing smoke and when done with intensity and repeatedly it's hard for the professionals to grasp that there is little or nothing to all those claims and make your uphill struggle even harder.

An example:  One summer I and my son went one Friday on a summer daycare rafting field trip and a few drops of water got into my cell phone.  I hoped it would dry out and work but it was dead.  Son was with me 5 days from Wednesday pm to Monday pm and by that Friday she hadn't tried to call us.  I put a greeting on my cell phone that I was having cell phone problems and to call the house phones.  She never called.  Sunday night after son was asleep I listened to VMs and sure enough she had left a few VMs demanding to talk to son.  So Monday morning I called her and had him talk to her.  So at most she was out of contact for 2.5 days (and from her testimony later it was less than one day, from sometime Sunday to early Monday morning) and it was solely her fault for not calling the house phone instead.  I replaced my phone Wednesday night.

Then on Thursday we had a previously scheduled family court hearing.  Hearing started late and so of course ex added to the magistrate's frustration by claiming I refused to answer the phone.  Ex: "Now, I had attempt to call Mr. FD with my son was under his care and he refused to answer the phones in the past and I have not seen my son since Wednesday night all the way until Monday and I cannot get through... .I have, the man that I hired on Sunday to do a plumbing job, this past Sunday, and I made two phone calls while he was in the property... ."  Me responding to magistrate: "It’s a cell phone.  I have a brand new phone as of yesterday."  Court:  "So to solve the immediate problem... ."  Not one question to me about my side of her complaint and the pace was so fast I could barely squeeze in that I had just bought a new phone.  That ought to have alerted the court to pause and ask why I just got a new phone when ex complained I wasn't answering when she called.  Magistrate was peeved at both of us (stormed out as soon as the next date was scheduled) and took away the "reasonable" in the standard "reasonable telephone contact" clause.  That wasn't restored until earlier this year, some 4.5 years later.

Somehow the squeaky wheel, the messed up spouse, gets all the attention and coddling.  And logic and reasoning mean little by comparison.  However, over time it becomes evident - well, usually - which person is credible and which person is not credible and so it gets a little less of an uphill struggle.

[livednlearned]

A lot depends on the state where you live, and how they do things there.

For example, if you had an affair, and you live in a state where there are alien of affection laws, and your stbx wants to prove you had an affair so she can get a better alimony deal, then that's something to talk about with your attorney. What counts as proof, what can she legally subpoena, would you need a forensic IT person to testify, etc.

You don't have kids, right? So custody stuff isn't an issue.

Is it possible that you are still detaching and feeling susceptible to BPD type of accusations? Some of her mental illness will affect what she does legally, but a bunch will (hopefully) get nipped in the bud by your lawyers. If she wants to subpoena a ridiculous amount of stuff that goes overboard into your private life, your attorney should protect you and fire a warning shot back to say that the items she's asking for are absurd. If she presses, have your attorney ask for a deposition where she can give her sworn testimony under oath, and have it transcribed, and then she can be cross-examined in court, etc. There is some gamesmanship to what lawyers do. Hopefully yours is good at it.

My experience watching stuff go down in family court the past four years is that court desperately wants to see people act like grown-ups. When two people walk into court with lawyers because they can't work it out on their own, you have a mark against you. The judge is waiting to see who is trying to resolve this, and who is blocking it. Or whether both of your are the problem. So your job is to be the reasonable guy with a good solution. Judges love that.

It doesn't always work out great, even when you follow the rules. Lord knows there are some bad judges and lawyers out there. But for the most part, you're just trying to divvy up your financial stuff, and to most judges, that's just a business contract with some negotiation. If what you're worried about are "character" types of texts, that shouldn't even be an issue in court.

Also, most judges aren't interested in anything more than six months prior.

But like Matt said, if you're worried about it showing up in court, don't do it. Wait until the divorce is final.

And if you're super paranoid, look up the laws in your state. In my state, it is a felony for my ex to hack my son's phone if I bought it and am paying the monthly plan. It's also possible that the data on your phone belongs to your company -- when you leave, they may be able to wipe it clean, for example, because they paid for the phone to be activated and for the data you transmitted.

If that's what you're worried about, maybe talk to HR or look at your contract. Ask your lawyer what to do. If it could seriously mess you up financially, and it's not too hard to wipe that data, then maybe it's worth it. If you're worried about messages that are just a little embarrassing, it might not be worth doing anything.