Palimony #1

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

hi stoic. you've received excellent and heartfelt advice from everyone on this thread. may i point to a few positives?

I am in a safe environment alone with my dog. I talk to my aunt and uncle who are lovely people and child psychologists. I have made a friend at work.

I have a therapist whose trying to help me. As time passes I will speak with another attorney.

... .

I am throwing myself in to my work and doing a great job... .so despite my panic attacks and "episodes" at work... .I am maintaining stability the best that I can.

family, doggie, friend, therapist, work, a lawyer to come. that's a whole lot. please remind yourself of that. you've got support. you're still connected.

one other item:

I try to give her the gift of self-awareness but it isn't  helping.

please try not to add to your concerns by taking on goals that can't be satisfied. you can't give a gift to someone who doesn't know it's a gift. she may in fact feel patronized by your perfectly decent efforts and then get worse. see to your own situation. and keep posting here!

[maxen]

hi stoic. you've received excellent and heartfelt advice from everyone on this thread. may i point to a few positives?

I am in a safe environment alone with my dog. I talk to my aunt and uncle who are lovely people and child psychologists. I have made a friend at work.

I have a therapist whose trying to help me. As time passes I will speak with another attorney.

... .

I am throwing myself in to my work and doing a great job... .so despite my panic attacks and "episodes" at work... .I am maintaining stability the best that I can.

family, doggie, friend, therapist, work, a lawyer to come. that's a whole lot. please remind yourself of that. you've got support. you're still connected.

one other item:

I try to give her the gift of self-awareness but it isn't  helping.

please try not to add to your concerns by taking on goals that can't be satisfied. you can't give a gift to someone who doesn't know it's a gift. she may in fact feel patronized by your perfectly decent efforts and then get worse. see to your own situation. and keep posting here!

[stoic83]

To those who posted.

She wasn't even my girlfriend. Just someone I've dated. I had nowhere else to go. I was in a park after having to leave the living situation I was in... .and ready to stay in a motel.

I thought it was a win/win... .I help her with rent and getting her abusive separated husband out of her house, and I have a less expensive place to stay than a motel... .and I didn't have to rent a room from strangers.

Ended up being the biggest mistake of my life.

My family doesn't support her in the slightest. My mom and dad absolutely despise her. Call her a low-life.

My Aunt and Uncle are more empathetic... .because being child psychologists they deal with a lot of single mothers and probably feel bad for her. My Uncle said, "the guy just leaves her and the kid and goes off and does whatever"

They are trying to get me to be a father to this child.

I am sharing articles from sheri scheiber and others with them in the hopes they understand. Most people who live a more sheltered life have not come in to contact with these types of characters. If it wern't for the dating site, I never would have met her.

Her plan seems to be somewhat calculated to be honest... .she met me... .took down her dating profile... .kicked her husband out... .had an app on her phone w/ period cycles(found this out after she was pregnant)... .told me it was IMPOSSIBLE for her to get pregnant... .said she took emergency contraceptive... .and then hid the pregnancy/period from me... .after I found out, she emotionally blackmailed me and made graphically violent comments about herself, the baby, and asked me if I could just push her down the stairs... .when I came home all my stuff was packed and ready to go... .she got what she wanted and no longer had a need for me.

She wants me to hang around... .but it's only to maximize the value she can get out of me. She knows if I go NC, she will only get the child support... .and with me she will get a human slave + child support... .so I can understand her dilemma.

I never really liked her, but I thought she was a good person and we were two struggling people helping eachother out.

I complained to my friends at work... .and they said "just a little bit longer" ... ."hang in there". I felt guilty for staying there... .as she seemed obsessive towards me and it gave me the willies... .but after living with other psychos during my journey from homelessness to stability... .it seemed like the lesser of two evils.

Never did I think that she would be able to get her claws in to me for life.

I will focus on the positives. If I can prevent her from going to the courts that might be the best... .as long as it doesn't prevent me from living my life.

I am worried about getting the paternity test... .can i get this privately so that the courts can't obtain record?

Honestly I'd rather pay her a couple thousand a year "cash - with hand written receipts for services rendered" to never be in the system, even if she's just a con-artist and it isn't even mine.

I do NOT want to be in the system.

Stoic

[momtara]

Maybe you can convince her to make a deal.  Most family courts and lawyers want you to make a deal with your ex and not go before a judge.  99 percent of the time, that's what happens.  You may be able to sway her toward accepting a little money or whatever.  But really, it may not be your child.  It is VERY hard to get pregnant from just one time or a few times of having sex, at any age.  Even someone in optimum health has a 25 percent chance if they are having sex at the right times of their cycle, more than once. 

If it is your kid... .well, if you set the right boundaries - and yes, this will take time - you may be able to breathe easy sooner than you think.

[ForeverDad]

I thought it was a win/win... .I help her with rent and getting her abusive separated husband out of her house, and I have a less expensive place to stay than a motel... .and I didn't have to rent a room from strangers.

If it weren't for the dating site, I never would have met her.

Her plan seems to be somewhat calculated to be honest... .she met me... .took down her dating profile... .kicked her husband out... .had an app on her phone w/ period cycles(found this out after she was pregnant)... .told me it was IMPOSSIBLE for her to get pregnant... .said she took emergency contraceptive... .and then hid the pregnancy/period from me... .after I found out, she emotionally blackmailed me and made graphically violent comments about herself, the baby, and asked me if I could just push her down the stairs... .when I came home all my stuff was packed and ready to go... .she got what she wanted and no longer had a need for me.

Two things... .First, it is not healthy to be married, spouse living in the home and to be on a dating site.  The general rule of thumb is to be out of a relationship and well along the way to recovering/adjusting to the post-relationship life.  Clearly, she didn't wait.  But of course that's not a consideration to a person with BPD behaviors and perceptions.  So yes, her actions do appear calculated.  This is a link to our thread about DrJoeCarver's web site where he uses phrases "users, losers and abusers".  That's in addition to blamers, manipulators, controllers, etc.

Second, are you really sure her husband was abusive?  I mean, above and beyond the reactions of getting rejected and kicked out?  I ask because typical BPD behavior is to claim all past relationships were abusive.  I bet when she is cycled into her hate moods that she calls you abusive too.  I'm not saying he isn't abusive, I'm just saying you can't trust her claims and you can't trust the small window of time you observed him while he was painted bad and as he was being shown the door.

They are trying to get me to be a father to this child.

Quite understandable.  But I keep coming back to whether is really is your child or not.  That single fact, as yet unknown, ought to be a huge deciding factor for you.  Once you find out then you know which paths are before you, one to fatherhood at a greater or lesser level - or not.

Beware of obligating yourself before you know wither you're the father.  While you can give general assurances you are there for her and the baby, don't sign any paperwork, not even a birth certificate, until you know the results of a DNA test.  (A DNA test doesn't have to be a huge production, it's just a simple swab of a baby's mouth and yours that is sent off to a laboratory with a few hundred dollars.  It doesn't even have to be a lab used by the local family court, this is for yourself to know which way the wind is blowing.)

And Very Important:  After the baby is born, no more nights of weakness, no more unprotected sex.  One baby (that might not even be yours) is enough, don't risk making more.  As I've often said here:  While children are wonderful blessings, having babies doesn't fix a dysfunctional and unhealthy relationship, all it does is make it vastly more complicated.

I am worried about getting the paternity test... .can I get this privately so that the courts can't obtain record?

I believe if you do it on your own without using court or lawyer involvement that the results would be sent to you and it would be up to you what you did with it.  The benefit of knowing is that if you know you're not the father then she can't pressure you.  And if you are the father then that knowledge too would help you figure out how you would handle things.  It's the "not knowing" that enables the indecision and circular logic that leads to inaction.

I do NOT want to be in the system.

If you're not married and not the father then you won't be.

If you get married to her, you are the father or you signed any documents stating you are the father then you may not be able to avoid being in the system.

[stoic83]

Foreverdad,

Why would i get married to her? I met her 4 months ago. She's a psycho.

There is a small chance that I am not the father... .but I saw the ultrasound and the timing seems right.

Clearly this was her intention. I don't think there is any legal recourse.

I am currently reading about how if I am the non-custodial parent, I am going to live in a shack and she is going to live in a castle.

I will settle out of court and hopefully that will make her happy... .she already agreed that it would be more fair to calculate off of her income.

I make three times as much as her.

She did sign a sperm donor agreement as my counselor suggested.

We went to my counselor and my counselor told her: "He did not consent. You want to have a child. He does not... .he's a sperm donor. Would you sign an agreement, understand that he might never talk to you again?" She agreed.

The next day after she signed it, she told me it wouldn't hold up in court.

I went to a lawyer and he said it wouldn't hold up in court.

So basically, my counselor tried to help me... .and since she did not tell me of her intentions to use my sperm to impregnate herself I will be funding her life and child against my will.

I'd say that the chances of the child not being mine are very low... .I lived with her and I was a much better target than anyone else.

I am a highly educated, moral, caring, person who was just in a very bad spot due to the embezzlement of the entire bank account of the corporation I started.

It's ironic... .that the initial crime committed against me lead to more crimes committed against me... .leading to me soon living in a shack and funding someone else's life because they were able to find a loophole to manipulate the system.

I am so bummed.

Stoic

Stoic

[Pou]

stoic83, I think your thread is filled with caring and constructive replies.  so I don't really have much to add.  But one thing I hope you keep in mind is that if this child turn out to be yours after DNA testing, then please remember that children in general are innocent.  No matter what kind of drama was behind their arrival to this world, they are powerless and all children deserves most love and care that you can provide.  Please also remind that to your BPDex and make sure she doesn't use her child as a tool to gain attention and sympathy.  You will have to strong and help yourself and that innocent child.  This is just my 2cents and I believe that will also give you a purpose in this unpleasant situation.  Sometimes when we give ourselves in helping another human being, we forget our own troubles. 

[ynguns2]

I can honestly and unfortunately say I am in your same situation (Almost) I am sorry you are going through this crap too I have been in a fog for the last 11 months and my now ex is a complete b-word. I am sick of trying to please her and her family she allows me to see my (alleged) child for an hr and a half once a week and it takes me an hour to get there and an hour back. I completely hate her and what I find odd is the judge refused to allow me a DNA test saying I am the father do to my involvement and actions. I asked her to allow me a DNA test and she refused saying " You want me to go against judges orders? "  She is scared of something I will do a DNA on my own if I have to.

[catnap]

Did the ultrasound have her name and a date on it?  Just asking because would be very simple for her to get an ultrasound picture off of the internet. 

[momtara]

I think some of you are being a tiny bit hard on him - it is a struggle to coparent with someone with this disorder (as we know) and I can't blame him for having the anxiety, magnified by not expecting this situation.  That said, Stoic, you did get good advice here and your life is not over... .it may change in unique ways.  You seem smart, so just try to see the positives and keep talking to a therapist.

[stoic83]

I think some of you are being a tiny bit hard on him - it is a struggle to coparent with someone with this disorder (as we know) and I can't blame him for having the anxiety, magnified by not expecting this situation.  That said, Stoic, you did get good advice here and your life is not over... .it may change in unique ways.  You seem smart, so just try to see the positives and keep talking to a therapist.

Aww thanks momtara! Last night and this morning I was barraged with phone calls and text messages threatening me... .calling me a "paying sperm donor", telling me that her husband(ex?) says that he wants nothing to do with the "Jew baby", telling me that she's putting my name on all of her medical documents as the father... .telling me she named the child already (a girl)... .but then said it's just a hunch and if it's a boy she's naming him after me.

Texting me at 5 in the morning all morning till 11 AM. I texted PLEASE STOP about 10 times... .but am so scared of her leverage over me that I didn't cut it off. Finally I blocked her number.

I talked to my therapist and she says she thinks if I cut it off completely she will find someone else to give her attention and may forget about me entirely. 6 months is a long time!

T told me she is enflaming the situation, taunting me... .and there is no good that can come of being in touch with her right now. She says a lot can happen between now and then... .T has 15 years of family conflict resolution experience.

Honestly I care so much about human beings but if I can't get full custody, I don't think there is anything I can do for this child. I don't want to be tormented by this woman for the rest of my life and watch her destroy a child's mind with smothering, push/pull, abusive men... .aghhhh!

I think I'd rather have someone pluck every hair out of my head while scratching fingernails on the board for 100 days in a row. I'm so friggining sensitive and protective of children... .it would drive me mad! The child courts will rarely take a child away from the mom.

If i can just frame it as "sperm donor" in my mind, maybe I can save myself a lot of pain. Trust me... .if she has 50%+ of custody of this child, the child will be ruined by this monster. Honestly, even weekends she will destroy a child. I don't want to have children with this women... .I know it's not the child's fault, but how can the courts allow women like this to raise children. Sure she has a job and rental history... .but who ___ing cares. It's a child!

She's one sick puppy, this woman. I've had so many friends come from broken homes... .I don't want a suicidal alcoholic for a child who prefers me to her, triggering her abandonment issues, creating all kinds of high conflict and court issues. I would absolutely crumble

T thinks I need to walk away. This is just chaos theory... .I don't have any control over this woman's actions. She's a maniac! Honestly guys... .I know everyone says that their child is worth the struggle. But there are billions of people in this world.

We can't save them all. I'm so sorry for offending anybody... .I just am scared and don't want to be in therapy for the rest of my life trying to solve an unsolvable problem.

Momatara---I am book smart... .but according to this woman I have no "street smarts". I think that's her way of bragging about doing this to me.

Sick.

[momtara]

Don't let these things she is saying get to you.  However, do document them and hold on to the evidence. 

Yes, you are right - very hard to get 100 percent custody.  I fully understand your dilemma and your decision.  T may be right that you should just walk away.  Doesn't mean you have to give up your rights forever.  The child could end up needing a parent some day if she gets into trouble.

"If I can't get full custody, I don't think there is anything I can do for this child. I don't want to be tormented by this woman for the rest of my life and watch her destroy a child's mind with smothering, push/pull, abusive men... .aghhhh!"

You may be right.  It may be best for all of you not to give her license to torment you, or use the kid as leverage.  Try not to engage her when she is harassing you.  (You could get a restraining order but I understand you don't want to go that far yet.)  If she ever makes a physical threat, then you may have to do something.

[stoic83]

Thanks for understanding momtara. There are adoptive parents all over the world who provide loving homes and raise healthy children. Sharing genes with someone doesn't mean everything. I love my Aunt and we aren't blood related!

My aunt and uncle couldn't have children and so they adopted two girls from China. They are both child psychologists by the way, and they are being supportive of me.

They are usually with the mother and child so my situation gives them a unique perspective.

I don't think I have records of everything. A lot of it was phone calls. I do have texts but most of them are okay.

Anyways, thanks for validating my feelings. 6 months is a long time to figure things out... .and I don't owe this woman anything.

Stoic

[clydegriffith]

"If I can't get full custody, I don't think there is anything I can do for this child. I don't want to be tormented by this woman for the rest of my life"

I said this exact same thing but in the end i realized as a young adult in my late 20s with no family anywhere near me, it wasn't feasible for me to even attempt to raise a 6 month old girl on my own. Fast forward a few years later and BPDx now has a total of 4 kids by 3 different guys two of which she lost custody of. But it's all going to be okay because the latest baby daddy (alleged) is 100% the love of her life.

[stoic83]

"If I can't get full custody, I don't think there is anything I can do for this child. I don't want to be tormented by this woman for the rest of my life"

I said this exact same thing but in the end i realized as a young adult in my late 20s with no family anywhere near me, it wasn't feasible for me to even attempt to raise a 6 month old girl on my own. Fast forward a few years later and BPDx now has a total of 4 kids by 3 different guys two of which she lost custody of. But it's all going to be okay because the latest baby daddy (alleged) is 100% the love of her life.

I would rather hire a full time nanny than have this sick woman take care of a child and be forced to pay for it.

[ForeverDad]

"If I can't get full custody, I don't think there is anything I can do for this child. I don't want to be tormented by this woman for the rest of my life"

I said this exact same thing but in the end i realized as a young adult in my late 20s with no family anywhere near me, it wasn't feasible for me to even attempt to raise a 6 month old girl on my own. Fast forward a few years later and BPDx now has a total of 4 kids by 3 different guys two of which she lost custody of. But it's all going to be okay because the latest baby daddy (alleged) is 100% the love of her life.

I would rather hire a full time nanny than have this sick woman take care of a child and be forced to pay for it.

Unless/until you can convince her to abdicate being a majority-time mother or convince family court that your parenting would be substantively better than hers and/or the child would be substantively abused, neglected or endangered to the level of being considered 'actionable' to the court, you would be facing some level of parenting split between the two of you.

Family court, like most other courts, is set up as an adversarial process which sadly lends itself to the conflict of person with some level of PD, but it does try to find a middle ground.  However, most have concluded that often, though not always, the mother gets unwritten and unstated preference despite the courts' claims of no gender bias.

Right now you're full of the emotions of an unexpected fatherhood.  Give it time for your first reactions to subside, ponder wisely what you will do long term.  You don't know yet if the baby is definitely yours.  You don't know yet whether she will want to parent the baby, give it up for adoption or anything else.  Remember, pwBPD are prone to extreme cycles of perceptions and behaviors.  One consistent pattern is that they are inconsistent, at least in some things.

Since you can't be sure what her long term actions will be, not yet, what about the things that are in your control such as your short term goals?  What is your goal for the next few months?  Can you figure out a way to move out sooner rather than later?  We've noticed your tendency to relapse into intimacy.  The proximity is working against you.  While not trying to antagonize her, can you find ways to live more separated lives?  Remember, she is still married, doesn't matter whether her husband is portrayed to be a nice man or a bad man.  Though her husband is currently gone, you have no way to know for how long.  Using an illustration, she may only have him simmering on the back burner of the stove, he may be moved to the front burner at some point, back in her life.  And it's not your business, she's an adult, he's an adult - and they're married - you can't make anything happen nor can you make anything not happen.

Understand the limits of your situation.  So for now concentrate on yourself, how to attain a better equilibrium, how to determine your options and how to decide which ones are for the best.

[stoic83]

"If I can't get full custody, I don't think there is anything I can do for this child. I don't want to be tormented by this woman for the rest of my life"

I said this exact same thing but in the end i realized as a young adult in my late 20s with no family anywhere near me, it wasn't feasible for me to even attempt to raise a 6 month old girl on my own. Fast forward a few years later and BPDx now has a total of 4 kids by 3 different guys two of which she lost custody of. But it's all going to be okay because the latest baby daddy (alleged) is 100% the love of her life.

I would rather hire a full time nanny than have this sick woman take care of a child and be forced to pay for it.

Unless/until you can convince her to abdicate being a majority-time mother or convince family court that your parenting would be substantively better than hers and/or the child would be substantively abused, neglected or endangered to the level of being considered 'actionable' to the court, you would be facing some level of parenting split between the two of you.

Family court, like most other courts, is set up as an adversarial process which sadly lends itself to the conflict of person with some level of PD, but it does try to find a middle ground.  However, most have concluded that often, though not always, the mother gets unwritten and unstated preference despite the courts' claims of no gender bias.

Right now you're full of the emotions of an unexpected fatherhood.  Give it time for your first reactions to subside, ponder wisely what you will do long term.  You don't know yet if the baby is definitely yours.  You don't know yet whether she will want to parent the baby, give it up for adoption or anything else.  Remember, pwBPD are prone to extreme cycles of perceptions and behaviors.  One consistent pattern is that they are inconsistent, at least in some things.

Since you can't be sure what her long term actions will be, not yet, what about the things that are in your control such as your short term goals?  What is your goal for the next few months?  Can you figure out a way to move out sooner rather than later?  We've noticed your tendency to relapse into intimacy.  The proximity is working against you.  While not trying to antagonize her, can you find ways to live more separated lives?  Remember, she is still married, doesn't matter whether her husband is portrayed to be a nice man or a bad man.  Though her husband is currently gone, you have no way to know for how long.  Using an illustration, she may only have him simmering on the back burner of the stove, he may be moved to the front burner at some point, back in her life.  And it's not your business, she's an adult, he's an adult - and they're married - you can't make anything happen nor can you make anything not happen.

Understand the limits of your situation.  So for now concentrate on yourself, how to attain a better equilibrium, how to determine your options and how to decide which ones are for the best.

She divorced after becoming pregnant... .about 3 weeks ago. He will be the presumed father and need to dispute. They are both low-lifes.

She presented herself as an empath and animal lover and over time her true self presented itself... .as the mask slipped.

I feel bad for her... .but think she would make an awful parent and project her illness on to the child.

I have my own place. I pleaded with her to have an abortion... .she told me she was infertile and it was a lie... .in addition to BPD she is a pathological liar.

She has an entire blog on the internet with violent fantasies, imaginary relationships, and talking about having a kid. It is absolutely psychotic.

When I alerted it to her, she blamed it on her ex-husband... .claiming he must have wrote it all and pretended to be her. It was clearly written by her. She's someone who lies in the face of clear evidence... .disturbing.

I live in my own place and blocked her number. I think I may be able to build a case against her with all of the evidence of her unsuitability for parenting. Her job asked her to move locations because of her obsession with her employee.

In any case... .I have blocked her number and told her to leave me a message if there is anything important and I will get back to her.

I told her she can move on and start dating someone else if she wants (she said she needed closure). In any case my T hopes she will find someone else and forget about taking revenge on me through CSA.

If I can avoid developing an emotional attachment to the child, then my T says she can help me deal with the guilt. If I do develop an emotional attachment... .I will fight and fight and fight.

It might be better for all parties if I just leave. The child suffers of course. But honestly, I think the child may suffer more with the confusion of a custody battle... .perhaps the child will be okay with being raised by crazy people. I don't think so, but since the child courts don't seem to care... .then I guess it's kind of a lost cause.

When a child is born to a uBPD/Psychopathic mother... .there really is no winning unless the courts, I and society can get the child out of her hands and in to a foster home, adoptive family, or a loving father who has the resources to provide independently.

Naturally, she is going to look at this child as "the one who will never abandon her" so the chances of that happening are slim. Aside from a mother's protectiveness, a child in the hands of a BPD is "MINE MINE MINE". Her little doll.

So sick... .it makes me absolutely sick.

And unfortunately I told her exactly what I thought of her on the phone. She was taunting, baiting me to tell her what I really thought of her and I told her exactly what I felt... .and it was horrible.

I feel horrible for the things I said... .but this woman is threatening my livelihood, using the child as a hostage in a "business negotiation", and is a liar with no empathy for me.

I am tired of being nice. She asked what I thought of her and I told her.

She tells me she feels like she "doesn't exist" that she "wants to crawl in to a hole and die"... .I feel awful. I just told a grown child that I thought they were the worst person in the world, scum, a parasite, a gold digger. I told her she needed psychiatric help for her severe love addiction, violent fantasies, and pathological lying.

It's really hard to sympathize with someone when they are threatening you, harrassing you, making anti-semetic comments, manipulating you, taunting you over and over again.

After that convo I called T, and she said she seems like she has a personality disorder.

Do courts care about that?

Stoic

[stoic83]

I have created distance and allowed her the means to contact me via voicemail. It was hard to cut her off, but I had to. Her threats, accusations, playing on my fears were absolutely driving me up the wall. I needed a strong boundary.

I mentioned at some point that I never wanted to hear from her again and that she should contact my attorney if she wants anything. I don't have an attorney yet... .but I will by the time the baby is born.

Honestly, she's toxic... .I backpedaled a bit, saying I didn't want to go that route. Since she seems to want the child all to herself, and child support I feel we are not going to resolve anything.

I told her

1) Work something out with family members as witnesses.

2) Mediation.

3) Binding aribitration

4) Family court.

I told her that 4 was the worst option for everybody involved.

She just thinks she's going to get a check and a baby. She is absolutely bonkers.

If I am going to become emotionally/financially invested in to this child's life, I want to ensure they are in good hands. She is a psycho... .not in good hands.

Fight, fight, fight. I will never back down.

Appeal. Appeal. Private investigator. Appeal. Appeal. CPS. Appeal. Appeal. Private Investigator. Lawyer. Civil action. Appeal. Appeal.

Can't coparent with a woman as sick as this. Sorry. I care too much.

Better to walk away... .because I will burn through all of my resources fighting for the child, if I love them.

Stoic

[momtara]

You can, however, ask for her to get a psych eval before the child is born.  If you have crazy emails, texts etc, from her, you could show them.  Maybe at least the child would be in the hands of a mom who is forced to get counseling.  If she won't, well, then, that looks bad for her.

[stoic83]

You can, however, ask for her to get a psych eval before the child is born.  If you have crazy emails, texts etc, from her, you could show them.  Maybe at least the child would be in the hands of a mom who is forced to get counseling.  If she won't, well, then, that looks bad for her.

She is in counseling twice a week... .however from the sounds of it, the counselor is pushing her to seek child support from me, claiming I'm a boy tied to my apron strings, and that I don't take responsibility for my actions.

She has some dumb Kaiser counselor that's probably a pregnancy counselor/relationship counselor. It's pointless. She's so manipulative... .she had me fooled for months.

It's only when her mask slips... .or you notice the subtle manipulations and lies about lifelong things.

I have 30 pages of crazy blog emails. She told me Kaiser said she didn't even need a therapist after filling out paperwork.

This woman is such a phony. She just tells people what they want to hear. It's a joke. I'm so screwed.

Stoic

[momtara]

That's typical that a BPD person can snow a counselor.  As you said, she had you believing her lies too.

Well, it's up to you, but if you end up in a court situation, you can ask for a court ordered psych eval.  You may not get many chances in life to do this.  Then it may show her weaknesses and could be used to convince a judge that she must get counseling while watching the kid.  You could ask for the counseling to be with a psychiatrist.  I'm not saying you'd get everything you ask for in court, but it never hurts to ask.  If she wants to go to court, she has to face the risks of it, too.  So this is also an ace up your sleeve (although you'd probably have to get a test too, and if you have issues, it could show them on you.)  A custody evaluation would be long and expensive and would go into everything on both sides, but may help you  if you want to protect the kid a bit.

Don't be so sure you know what her shrink is telling her.  BPD folks tend to lie about those things and say the reverse of the truth.  And we still fall for it.

[catnap]

I have 30 pages of crazy blog emails. She told me Kaiser said she didn't even need a therapist after filling out paperwork.

Yet, she goes twice a week.

You can ask her to do an non-invasive blood test (they take the mother's blood only) for paternal DNA.  However, IF you are the father it could backfire on you. 

[stoic83]

I have 30 pages of crazy blog emails. She told me Kaiser said she didn't even need a therapist after filling out paperwork.

Yet, she goes twice a week.

You can ask her to do an non-invasive blood test (they take the mother's blood only) for paternal DNA.  However, IF you are the father it could backfire on you. 

I've blocked her and asked her not to contact me. I looked in to prenatal dna testing it's close to 2k... .better to save for a good attorney.

I'm really hoping that she is only acting this crazy due to being pregnant. I hope I'm just dealing with a pwBPD and not aspd/psychopath... .but I am pretty sure I would have known sooner.

Either way... .I spoke with someone on the domestic violence hotline last night about reproductive coercion, manipulation, psychological abuse, and power and control. He said that she is using the child as a weapon to try and control me.

He said it's noble of me to care about the child, but it might be better for me to be unattached... .as he said people like her don't normally change.

He said I might have to pay... .but there is a chance it isn't mine, but that best case I'd probably only get 50/50 and he said it puts abused men in a really bad spot to be toyed with.

Thoughts?

Stoic

[Pou]

I have 30 pages of crazy blog emails. She told me Kaiser said she didn't even need a therapist after filling out paperwork.

Yet, she goes twice a week.

You can ask her to do an non-invasive blood test (they take the mother's blood only) for paternal DNA.  However, IF you are the father it could backfire on you. 

I've blocked her and asked her not to contact me. I looked in to prenatal dna testing it's close to 2k... .better to save for a good attorney.

I'm really hoping that she is only acting this crazy due to being pregnant. I hope I'm just dealing with a pwBPD and not aspd/psychopath... .but I am pretty sure I would have known sooner.

Either way... .I spoke with someone on the domestic violence hotline last night about reproductive coercion, manipulation, psychological abuse, and power and control. He said that she is using the child as a weapon to try and control me.

He said it's noble of me to care about the child, but it might be better for me to be unattached... .as he said people like her don't normally change.

He said I might have to pay... .but there is a chance it isn't mine, but that best case I'd probably only get 50/50 and he said it puts abused men in a really bad spot to be toyed with.

Thoughts?

Stoic

Stoic83, I am from the old school... .so I always encourage both parents to stay involved.  But I also have real life experience and knowing how one PD with sociopathic behaviors could destroy the entire ship.   I would listen carefully to what the professionals are advising you ... .if they think it is better off that you unattach, it may be better for you and you really don't have a choice.  However, I do feel horrible for the child because her mother probably going to blame it all on you for walking out and doesn't care about him or her (the child) and s/he will grow up feeling abandoned... .because the territorial nature of a PD will block any truth from coming forward to this child's life.  It is so strange that our society paint child custody issue so black and white... .there are so many layers of complexities and men usually get blame for it.  Perhaps, both of you can go to therapy together and see if you could co-parent?  At least, you know you have tried. 

[pallavirajsinghani]

Stoic83:

Document Document Document AND Document.

Record Record Record AND Record.

Understand that recordings done for criminal, illegal purposes are illegal... .recordings done for self-preservation are almost never prosecuted.

Your reply to her should be only a one line response, write it down and memorize it until it is automatic:  "I will deal with issues about the baby once it is proven by DNA that it is mine."  The onus to prove paternity is on HER and the onus to prove non-paternity is NOT ON YOU.

When she files a legal motion for child support... .then you legally respond with a legal DEMAND for paternity test. 

This is a step by step issue.  This emotional blackmail and insults and chaos is called, "management by crisis" in the corporate nomenclature... .this scenario gets played by bullies everywhere... .even in family dynamics, social dynamics and personal dynamics.  And its end result is a non-win solution--everyone is unhappy.  Now you can try to forgive the bullying behavior by explanations, justifications, as being symptomatic of cowardice and anxiety and neurosis etc etc. 

And you should also as easily forgive the ones who are victimized.  For it is not they who are weak... .mostly it is they who are the MORAL ones, the more civilized ones.

Andy yet, this cycle of destruction and allowing oneself to be destroyed... .this needs to break.

It will break once you boil down the issues to become single sentence issues... .bring it down to its essence:

1)  I did not use birth control.

2)  I allowed myself to be misused.

3)  If the child is mine, then I have the following options:

  a)  Pay child support and stay out of the child's life as a parent o

  b)  Pay child support and co-parent

  c)  Sue for full custody of child on the basis of mother's instability.

So the very first thing is to prove that the child is biologically mine.

Self protection means that you do not have any direct contact with her at all.  Attorneys are the way to go.

STUDY... .carefully all the posts of Foreverdad---from beginning to end.  What you will notice is that he developed strategies to protect himself and get a desired legal outcome by bringing himself to a psychological state of mind where he would only focus on the issue at hand.  He managed to use her instability against herself.  He was not her adversary, she was her own adversary... .both in life and in the legal system.  Of the utmost importance in that entire thread is how he used this board in a very productive way.  He posted each and every strategic point, every action at every step to the legal board for comments and critiques.  Based on the many responses he received, he adjusted that knowledge to his personal situation, developing a viable strategy step by step.  Each action of his had a certain reaction from his X.  Her reaction was not always the desired one.  Until at some point, with the help of the insights of the responders, he actually could surmise what her response would be and then used that knowledge wisely.

I want you to study it not for the methods he used, because those methods may not work for you... .but how he developed that methodology... .how he utilized the resources of this board, how he utilized his own resources, his intuition, his intelligence... .

Stay focused on your therapy.

Check around for good attorney... .check the attorney's records... .what kind of cases he/she has fought etc./post on the legal board to ask what you should look for in an attorney, invite the members to give you their bad experiences as well as good... .what worked for them, what did not.

You are now playing a chess match.  If your emotions are life twigs in the wind, you will be back to being stuck in a victim mode and you won't be able to break the cycle of your past.

Breaking the cycle is a process... .it does not happen with just awareness... .it happens with skill.  Your awareness of being an easy victim in the past and in this situation alone will not help.  This board, your therapist, your family, your good friends... .all will help you develop SKILLS needed to break the cycle.

Use all your resources.  Use them wisely and without embarrassment and without shame.

For to use is to give something/someone a utility value, it is not synonymous with misuse.  To use is holy--it is sacred---it is a healthy participation in the vitality of life... .to misuse is not.

God Bless... .for you are my beloved brother too.

[momtara]

I don't know that we should speculate that the child will feel abandoned.  Stoic doesn't need to completely leave forever - maybe just try to step back for a while, or maybe keep an eye on the situation.  Maybe he shouldn't give up his rights completely for now - maybe there is a legal way to leave a door open for future involvement.  It seems like for his own mental health, he has to set some boundaries.  Maybe once they are set with the mom, he can coparent or parallel parent (at least with the child). 

Stoic, who knows - maybe a situation will arise where the mom WILL need to lose custody - it'd be a good idea for you to be a viable option when the time comes.

[mavis]

You can buy an over-the-counter paternity (DNA) kit at Wal-Mart or any drug store for somewhere in the vicinity of $40.  There is a lab fee of around $150.  These prices may vary.  Just requires a mouth swab from you and the baby.

Until you have results, you have no reason to participate in any of the prenatal lunacy that will be generated.  You are not obligated to even look at the questionable ultrasound images, etc.

I wish you strength and a good bit of luck in the upcoming months.  Join a gym, keep on with your therapist, and try not to be swayed unduly by what your relatives think you should be doing.

Namaste,

[Pou]

I don't know that we should speculate that the child will feel abandoned.  Stoic doesn't need to completely leave forever - maybe just try to step back for a while, or maybe keep an eye on the situation.  Maybe he shouldn't give up his rights completely for now - maybe there is a legal way to leave a door open for future involvement.  It seems like for his own mental health, he has to set some boundaries.  Maybe once they are set with the mom, he can coparent or parallel parent (at least with the child). 

Stoic, who knows - maybe a situation will arise where the mom WILL need to lose custody - it'd be a good idea for you to be a viable option when the time comes.

Even stoic83 shows up once a week, it leaves the rest of 6 days for the PD to drill the idea that he doesn't care about him or her and that is when he or she will feel abandoned.  Some kids are actually abandoned by a parent, but the other parent kind of embellish the truth and made the kid doesn't feel been unwanted.  It is not about the truth, it is about what PD will do.  Man, they are just so evil. 

[momtara]

She can do that either way... .

[Pou]

She can do that either way... .

but at least if you show up enough times … kid will see it for him or herself and would eventually determine that she is a nut case for gas lighting.  if you just go away … then the kid will see that mom was right all along.  Trust me, sometimes I do feel like just to disappear so I can save my own life… but then I ask myself, I willingly bring my kids to this world and there is nothing that I wouldn't do for them…

[stoic83]

Guys,

I want to sincerely thank you for your help. I have had an extremely tough past couple of days, and I was so happy to come on and read your thoughtful notes.

pallavirajsinghani: This was fantastic. This is the strategy I am taking. I do have some fault. My Uncle (the psychologist) told me that if someone sells me a crappy car and I overpay, whose fault is it? If a prostitute tells me everything I want to hear, and I sleep with her... whose fault is it. I do have some "fault". However, I prefer not to "victim blame". I am a trusting and compassionate person, while that allows me to connect with and inspire others, it also leaves me vulnerable in certain situations. I should have seen the   s and therefore I agree with you.

I told her the same. "You are 3 months pregnant and you are a pathological liar. I do not want to spend my time resources and energy on all of this drama until I know I am the father. (in 6-8 months).


*****ALERT

She came to my work yesterday (after i went NC) and she handed me a yellow packet, and her friend shouted "you've been served". this was humiliating. And I must have looked traumatized... .I screamed at my boss while he was on the phone, and called my mom and was shouting that I needed to go to the police. Afterwards my boss pulled me in to his office, and half-way reprimanded me... .telling me, "look man you need to take care of this. Legally. This is affecting the team, and I'm concerned about what this is doing to you. It's making you sick. Don't try to fix this yourself. Get a lawyer."

So after work I went to the police station... .the first cop laughed at me and made some comment about how I was trying to get out of something and I needed a lawyer. I felt like a joke.

I called the police from home, and told them what happened and demanded to speak to another officer. The officer came to my house and he took down my report. There was a woman with him (And she may have been from CPS Good!). He seemed very understanding and I told him the entire back story. I asked him for his card and said I would call if anything happened again. He said since my work was in a different county he couldn't do anything, and technically it wasn't stalking but very close.

I come home from work today ready to relax, talking to my mom about lawyers and stress and just about ready to cry out. KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK. It's her. Mom freaks. Heart pounding. Call 911.

She won't leave. She's waiting in the hall and will not leave.

The dispatcher answers... .I tell her Im being stalked... .she asks if the woman has a mental illness and I said yes, she said were we in an intimate relationship... .she says yes. I tell her the officer I spoke with day before.

She's still there... .I am freaking out... .in the corner of my room. Trying to stay quiet.

The cops show up and take her out of the building.

The cop I built a relationship with comes up stairs and tells me she lied to him about everything. That when he told her everything about what she had done, with the bogus custody document, and harrassing me with 30 texts and 50 phone calls. He told her if she showed up at my property again, she would be arrested.

Then he told me that to get a Stalking Protection Order and he told me I had his full support!

Aside from all the trauma... .I think foreverdad would be proud of me. It wasn't easy for me to call the cops on her. I am a compassionate person and she is very sick, but has her good qualities... I understand her psychology but can't change it.

An egalitarian will lose against a narcissistic personality in a legal situation. This document protects me from her harrassment and boundry busters, and also will help me in a custody battle.

The coveted TRO... .would guarantee me full custody with supervised visitiation for her... .but I didn't want things to escalate to violence, and I need my sanity and my boundaries so I can be in good shape 6-8 months from now.

Her husband(ex) or whatever, will automatically be the presumed father. I have an interesting strategy involving him as an ally... .not sure if I should post it on here.

This has been so tough you guys. I met this woman 4 months ago and look at all the chaos and destruction she's brought in to my life.

I have a chance at full custody. I would ensure that this child had the best life and counseling at an early age to offset any genetic tendencies towards PDs or whatnot.

I know I can find a healthy loving woman to help. I was just in a desperate spot and allowed myself to be taken advantage of, out of my own naivety... .

It's a jungle out there... .can't let anything like this happen again.

Let me know what you guys think about my chances now... .