Leaving during a rage.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hello Family,

I have a question about the legal ramifications of leaving my home when my uBPDgf begins her rages. I feel like I have reached the end of my validation rope and will need to leave when things get bad. The home we reside in belongs to my parents who live in another state. We are not married but have been living together for about 5 years now and have two children. I work 45-50 hours per week and pay all of the bills pertaining to anything, she is not working and is a stay at home mom.

If I leave and get a hotel room for a day or two when things get really bad during her rages would this be considered abandonment of the shared residence from a legal stand point? Would this be held against me in any way if it were to come to a custody battle over our children?

Thank you in advance,

PD

[Proud_Dad]

Hello Family,

I have a question about the legal ramifications of leaving my home when my uBPDgf begins her rages. I feel like I have reached the end of my validation rope and will need to leave when things get bad. The home we reside in belongs to my parents who live in another state. We are not married but have been living together for about 5 years now and have two children. I work 45-50 hours per week and pay all of the bills pertaining to anything, she is not working and is a stay at home mom.

If I leave and get a hotel room for a day or two when things get really bad during her rages would this be considered abandonment of the shared residence from a legal stand point? Would this be held against me in any way if it were to come to a custody battle over our children?

Thank you in advance,

PD

[Swiggle]

I have no idea but would you be leaving alone or with your children. I think if you leave without your children, that would not look so good to most.

[ForeverDad]

I agree, did you take the children with you?

Appropriate pause... .Okay we all know she wouldn't let you take them with you.  Nearly all who make their way here report that their ex is entitled and extremely possessive of the children.

One idea is that if it's not late then you can take the kids out for a movie, treat, park or whatever, thereby giving her some time to hopefully calm down.

Frankly, if you're concerned of her behaviors and you leave, leaving them behind would indicate that you are not too concerned with her parenting.  We all know that's not the case, but how to not give the police and courts that impression over time?

I'd suggest you not make the rent you pay your parents too cheap, just in case she manages to kick you out, get possession and has a cheap place to live until the lease is up or she gets evicted.

Meanwhile, are you recording yourself (okays if her rants and rages gets recorded as a byproduct  ) so that you have proof it's not you misbehaving?  Frankly, it is only a small step for her to go from raging to making allegations, especially if she suspects you're contemplating separation or divorce.

My ex never made allegations to agencies prior to our separation - I called the police and eventually she was arrested for Threat of DV - but for the first couple years thereafter she made allegations of every sort of child neglect, child abuse or child perversion possible.  It was all about posturing, to make me look as bad or worse than her.  They were all false allegations but still the agencies had to investigate.  They never called them 'false', that's not politically correct, instead they always used passive phrases such as 'unsubstantiated'.  And she never suffered direct consequences for making repeated allegations, though after a few years her credibility was questioned.

[Proud_Dad]

Thank you guys for your responses.

I have never actually left for more than a couple hours, and the only time that I tried to take the kids with me she was completely lost it. She stood in front of my truck and got on the hood so that I could not leave.

I will try to use the angle of taking the kids to the park/treat/car ride in the future, it seems like a fairly innocuous way to get them out before things get too heated.

We don't actually have a lease agreement, I just pay the majority of the mortgage cost to my parents.

I have not been recording, but I have been exploring the voice recorder app on my phone and plan to do so.

She has told me that she would call the local authorities during a rage but never really made threats of allegations. She never carried this through, thankfully.

[Swiggle]

How old are your children? The movie, park thing is a good idea, although would she see it that way during a rage?

[Proud_Dad]

The children are young, only toddlers.

If I were to take the kids for a ride, I would approach it under the guise of giving her a chance to cool off and keeping the children away from a volatile situation. She probably won't like it, but I will attempt to assure her that I am not simply running from her emotions... .we shall see.

Any advice as to how to make this more easily digestible for her would be welcome.

I agree, did you take the children with you?

Appropriate pause... .Okay we all know she wouldn't let you take them with you.  Nearly all who make their way here report that their ex is entitled and extremely possessive of the children.

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD.

[Proud_Dad]

To be fair, she is a great mom. She loves our children and does everything she can to keep them safe (when not raging). Her issues (at this point) reside within our relationship.

[GaGrl]

You might want to consider having your parents draw up a lease arrangement based on the amount you are paying, in YOUR name only.

[ForeverDad]

You might want to consider having your parents draw up a lease arrangement based on the amount you are paying, in YOUR name only.

And don't make it too long of a lease, in case the marriage continues heading south and she maneuvers herself into possession with you footing the bills and your parents helpless to do anything about it.

Sounds like you need some very confidential local legal consultations to answer some of these questions.  Should I have a lease, what are my risks for police arresting me by default if they get called, etc.

To be fair, she is a great mom. She loves our children and does everything she can to keep them safe (when not raging). Her issues (at this point) reside within our relationship.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but she can't be a great mom.  Overzealous, yes, balanced, no.  There's no way on earth she could be raging at you and for the kids not to be exposed to it.  Exposure to rants and rages is not okay.  The children are seeing father being verbally attacked and vilified by mother and father trying to handle a bad situation but losing.  That is not a healthy example for the children.  They will grow up not knowing what a healthy parenting example is, all they will have experienced is the conflict, invalidation, ever-changing moods.  Think, Mommy Dearest.  Either they will grow up, start relationships and marry someone like mom or be someone like mom.  Neither are good outcomes two decades from now.

Your brief description matches exactly what I would have written of my own ex if I would have become a member here before my separation and subsequent divorce.  She treated 'her' son like an extension of herself and increasingly saw me as Mr Evil Personified.  When she was angry with me I heard comments like, ":)addy doesn't love you but mommy does."  "Get away from me, Judas Iscariot!"  "You don't wear the pants, I do!"  And the late night rants until the wee hours of the morning, "I don't care if you're tired and have to work in a few hours, we're going to fix this right now!"

I have not been recording, but I have been exploring the voice recorder app on my phone and plan to do so.

By the time it was all over, I had 3 recorders.  I was literally terrified about them getting full, batteries needing recharging, always having one nearby.  Back them there weren't many choices like we have today.  I've even seen ads for pencams and the pens actually write too.  Most of my recordings never saw the light of day but they were my insurance in case I had to prove that I wasn't the one misbehaving.  But I did play one in municipal court, it was proof she had threatened to kill me, judge ruled she was not guilty because she didn't have a weapon in her hands and our state's case law interpreted the written DV law to apply only if a threat was 'imminent'.  And a couple years later I played two recordings for CPS to prove my son didn't really believe I had beat him on the shins in a fit of anger as she had managed to prep him to tell the hospital ER staff - they heard son trying to show me his bruise he got on monkey bars at a park his mother had taken him to and so they closed the case.  And several recordings last year to prove she was using bait and switch on son and me to get what she wanted - I walked out with majority time.

I learned... .you can't have too much documentation.

I have never actually left for more than a couple hours, and the only time that I tried to take the kids with me she was completely lost it. She stood in front of my truck and got on the hood so that I could not leave.

My ex did that too.  She freaked out if I tried to stand up and protect him or be a dad or make her look bad.  She really tried to look good to others... .MOTY = Mother Of The Year.  Yet it was only a Mask of Seeming Normalcy, she dropped it like a hot potato anytime we were in private (her comfort zone) or when she got triggered.  And by the time we separated, anything and everything could trigger her.

She has told me that she would call the local authorities during a rage but never really made threats of allegations. She never carried this through, thankfully.

Yet.  We have a number of sayings here.  One that fits here:

If it has ever been threatened or contemplated, it will surely happen, given enough time.

As it turned out in my case, this is highly likely to morph into a horrendous Custody War.  Not just a struggle, a War.  Get local legal advice, it can't hurt and at her best won't be needed and at her worst will save your skin and fatherhood.

Remember, keep your options and strategies highly confidential.  You have a right to privacy, especially now.  She does NOT have a right to interrogate you, no matter how vehemently and intensely she claims otherwise.  Consider that any information you share with her will be twisted into something unrecognizable and used against you.  The person who ought to be your closest and most trusted friend will likely make herself your enemy.  You don't do that and probably can't prevent it, the disordered spouse does it.

The only hope to make the marriage healthy is if you both get into meaningful therapy (not to blame the other but to improve oneself), build good boundaries for proper behaviors, stick with it long term and make real improvements to your life.  Unless that happens, the implosion of the marriage is already looming, just a matter of 'when', not 'if'.

[ugghh]

Proud,

You have been given some excellent advice already, I urge you to heed it.  My list always starts with the same 2 items - (1) Get a therapist/counselor for yourself, (2) Get an attorney experienced in dealing with high-conflict divorce (attorney code for personality disordered) - no first year lawyers, no lawyers who do family law part time and other law.  A full time, experienced  attorney.  The stakes are too high for anything less.

I will answer in general that in general, you are unlikely to face charges of abandonment for leaving for a day or two when she is raging. If you are asked about this you should simply answer that you felt in fear of your own safety and were taking action to de-escalate the situation.

In addition to this board, I sometimes visit some other forums, where they tend to be a little more blunt with their advice /suggestions.  I am going to take that tack with you a bit here because if your gf is truly BPD, you are are vastly underestimating what you are facing.

To be fair, she is a great mom. She loves our children and does everything she can to keep them safe (when not raging). Her issues (at this point) reside within our relationship.

   As ForeverDad said, no she is not.  To you and even perhaps the rest of the outside world she is giving the appearance of SuperMom.  While keeping them safe may be a byproduct, she is not doing this altruistically.  The BPD mind thrives in creating dependency, and whom better to do so than in children.  If they totally depend on her, they can never abandon her.  As they get older, this will manifest itself in a number of ways as she tries control their choices under the guise of "protecting" them from every real and perceived threat that comes along.

I suggest that you check Christine Lawson's writing on the 4 types of Borderlne mothers, (here is a summary www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201109/the-world-the-borderline-mother-and-her-childrenand you may start to see some of her behaviors a bit differently.

Any advice as to how to make this more easily digestible for her would be welcome.

Do you recall the emergency directions you receive upon boarding a plane?   Put your own oxygen mask on first and then help your kids.  Do notice it does not not say first help your gf put on her mask?  This is the time to start putting on your mask.  Again, with pwBPD, there is no such thing as more digestible - if you leave, you are triggering all of her deepest fears of abandonment and will likely be painted very black.  To expect anything else is naive.

You have start of a good list of things to do to get your self ready for what will likely be a long war:

1) Counselor for you, not a MC.  You are going to need the support of a professional to help you keep you head straight, while your gf does everything in her power to bait you into responding and making bad choices that will hurt you in the long run.

2) Experienced divorce attorney.  If you interview attorney's who say they always settle before court, that is not likely the one for you.  pwBPD rarely acquiesce unless under the the threat of trial.  By the way if you are talking to your friend at work who tells you how he got divorced in 3 months and it only cost him a thousand dollars, just forget it.  This will not be cheap and likely not quick.  Start thinking about your financial resources now.

3) Get a couple of battery operated digital recorders.  Keep one near you at all times.  Phones and apps are way too complicated to be fumbling when needed.  The purpose is not to make your gf look bad, it is to protect you when the police are called and the restraining order is filed.   Odds are probably over 50% that you will face one.  Most of us have.

4) Get a written lease signed with your parents, preferably in your name only.

I will add some additional tips:

5) Sometime when she is out with the kids, videotape every room in the house and any important items to you.  You may need this should she move to have you removed from the house and/or begin destroying or selling things.

6) If you have important documents / financial paperwork / etc. it is time to find a safe place offsite and begin copying or removing these items.

7) VERY IMPORTANT - if you value your kids and you have not been involved in their lives, trusting your gf to do everything while you support the family, it is time to change today.  If you are already an involved and great dad (baths, play time, etc.) great!  - now for the important part - begin confidentially journaling every day about what you do for and with your kids.  If you can support it with pictures all the better.  If mom is BPD, the more influence you have in your kids lives the better chance you will have them to have a sense of normalcy.

If gf senses she is losing you, she is more likely to fight like heck for kids, who sadly will not have much say so at this age.  If you don't want to be just a weekend dad and cast their future to pwBPD, you need documentation and a plan!

8) Have an emergency plan, especially if you happen to get hauled to jail on a false abuse allegation.  Make sure family or friends know that this is possible and you have contact numbers available for family and attorney.  If gf decides to take kids and move back home with her parents, have a plan.

9) Temporary orders are important because they establish a status quo, and final decrees often follow that precedent.  Never give up something early and anticipate you can set it right down the road.

10) Stay in touch with family and friends, and keep coming back here.  You will find support you probably didn't know you had.  Especially on this board you will likely find someone who has already been through everything you are facing and will gladly share some wisdom or advice.

Hang in there!

[livednlearned]

To be fair, she is a great mom. She loves our children and does everything she can to keep them safe (when not raging). Her issues (at this point) reside within our relationship.

Being a great mom and raging cannot coexistent. The kids are hearing and seeing the rages, they're affected. Watching someone abuse another person is traumatizing. Growing up with it may normalize them to it, but that won't erase the damage. They may be doing ok now because they're young, but when they start to individuate and show a preference or will, it's likely they will have a harder time with their mom. Either that, or they'll do anything in their power to obey her to avoid conflict and the kind of rages you experience. 

Like ugghh suggested, talk to an attorney. You need to know how things work where you live -- in my state, there is something called abandonment of the marital home. It's different depending on country, state, and even county. It often comes down to which judge you have, too. Find out if it's legal to record in your state, and even if it's not, you may want to record as a defensive measure.

If you are at the point where you're thinking about checking into a hotel for a few days, that means you are thinking about putting up some boundaries and taking care of yourself. My experience is that BPD sufferers can sense this shift at a cellular level, and things will either escalate or get very quiet. That could mean she is orchestrating a legal strategy of her own.

And good idea to get a contract written up with your parents. You need something in writing. 

[Proud_Dad]

Thank you to everyone that has provided some advice to me, it really helps to be shown the gravity of the situation that surrounds me.

I went out on my lunch and got a small digital recorder and will begin to record myself to have proof that I am not the aggressor.

I have been keeping a journal at work regarding rage/argument incidents. These seem to be getting less frequent these days but are still unmatched in intensity. I will begin to update this journal with documentation of my acts as a father (pictures, details of the previous night, appointments with Drs., etc.)

I have contacted a couple family attorneys in my area and will begin meeting with them in the coming weeks to discuss my situation. I need to figure out what kind of leverage I can hold onto despite not being married. I live in a no fault state where I have had a few of my old friends get shafted by the courts.

I have also looked into finding a counselor for myself through my company's HR Dept. I think it will be good to get all of this off of my chest and maybe even receive some validation instead of constantly giving it.

I have yet to contact my parents about a lease for the house as they are currently in transit from a trip that they took. I will speak to them soon.

I have always held out hope for this relationship, and I still do. It hurts me very deeply to even think of taking these kinds of actions and possibly losing my children. However, I think it is time for me to cover my *ss in as many ways as possible. Better safe than sorry, so I need a plan and some supporting material if the S hits the fan. Being in my profession you don't even take a *hit without a plan, extensive documentation, and complete transparency.

Thank you all again, I will update this thread as things progress/develop. Please, if anyone has anymore advice, I would be grateful to hear it.

PD

[ForeverDad]

I have always held out hope for this relationship, and I still do. It hurts me very deeply to even think of taking these kinds of actions and possibly losing my children. However, I think it is time for me to cover my *ss in as many ways as possible. Better safe than sorry, so I need a plan and some supporting material if the S hits the fan. Being in my profession you don't even take a *hit without a plan, extensive documentation, and complete transparency.

If you want to call Plan A "hope for this relationship" then that's okay.  However, based on the past and her continuing pattern of blaming you 100% for all the troubles Plan A has almost no hope of success.  Therefore, you better have Plan B, Plan C, Plan D, etc.  You need realistic and practical strategies.  Sorry, hope is NOT a strategy.  Inaction isn't one either.  Nor is appeasement, etc.

And yes the S will hit the fan and the disordered parent will most certainly point the fan directly at you.  The moment you start contemplating setting some boundaries she will sense it subliminally and overreact in a desperate attempt to make you retreat back into your prior subservient life.  We call those attempts Extinction Bursts.  She will desperately fight against any change or improvement that reduces her sense of control and dictatorial power.

Just a small except from my long story, one Sunday I knew my then-spouse was especially upset with me - she had driven off to religious services, refusing to wait for me when I was about to go out the door but had paused to put on our preschooler's shoes.  So I figured she would still be angry when she returned and kept my recorder in my pocket.  And she was fuming.  She already didn't like my parents and others living nearby - her typical isolation strategy.  Her cork blew when our son innocently asked to go outside and I agreed.  SO she started threatening "I will kill you!"  So I called 911, she threatened again, took the handset and threw it in my direction, breaking it to pieces.  All that and more was recorded.  Apparently the fact that I was the one who called 911 was ignored by the police who responded - one a canine officer - since she later told me that they had given her the number of a DV shelter, something I was never offered.  I was holding our 3yo son and at one point an officer asked me to hand our quietly sobbing preschooler over to her and "step away".  Son started shrieking and grabbed me even tighter.  What child refuses to go to his mother?  So the officer stared and pondered for a moment and then simply said, "work it out" and they departed.  Really, I was the one who called 911 but it was only many months later that my lawyer told me the standing order is to cart off one of the persons in domestic disputes.  Clearly the officers were not willing to cart off a mother.  It stunned me that I was almost arrested or carted off, the only thing that stopped it was my son's instant reaction.  Belatedly I realized my son saved me that day!  The speaker didn't work so during the week I downloaded it and played it for another officer.  I signed the report, he advised me to never ever think about wimping out and withdrawing the report, and Threat of DV case was started against her.  Yes, it was dismissed months later when the judge ruled I wasn't in 'imminent' danger per case law, but it surely would have been far worse for me if I hadn't had the recording as documentation of what really happened that day.

Any recorders you use should be able to transfer files to computer disks for archiving off-site.  Remember, your safe areas must be places she cannot access either physically or electronically.  Your workplace may not be safe if other staff might let her in "to wait alone for you to return".  For example, one member here found out too late that his locked trunk and locked briefcase were not safe protection from a crowbar and hammer.  Same goes for any computer she can access physically or electronically, even if she can't hack it she may find someone who can or find a way to install a keylogger to monitor you.

[livednlearned]

It's true that dads can get shafted, and some states, some counties, some judges are worse than others.

But it's not likely you will lose your kids. Even if you aren't married -- if you're their father, that won't change in the eyes of the court.

It's been an ongoing conversation on this site since I've been here, and probably longer, that many dads don't tend to ask for full custody or primary custody. I looked at some US stats out of curiosity and the bias cuts both ways. Yes, more moms get primary physical custody, but more moms also ask for it. I only saw stats for four states, but in those states, of the dads who asked for primary custody, roughly half of them got it.

I suspect there is also a bias being passed around through lawyers -- they counsel dads to recognize the status quo, meanwhile perpetuating that status quo.

More often, I think guys here tend to feel brow beaten and afraid what will happen if they assert themselves in court. Or they're worn out and have no fight left, maybe have depression or PTSD.

Anyway, just wanted to make the point that there is not a whole lot to gain from being self-defeating when you start to think about custody. The best advice is to ask for what you think is best, and then ask for a little more than that so the judge can split the difference and make both parties feel like they're settling for second best. That seems to be how court works, so your strategy needs to be to aim high, knowing you will land slightly below that.

These aren't easy decisions to make. A therapist will help. You can break the cycle for your kids just by learning about BPD and figuring out how to help them navigate it in healthy ways. And giving them a place where they can sort things out. BPD is confusing for adults. It's even more so for kids.  

[ugghh]

Proud Dad,

Well done.  Way to start taking back control of your life.   As ForeverDad said Hope is Fine, but don't let that be your only plan.

Pay very close attention to what he said about extinction bursts.  I missed the clues early on in the divorce process when when stbx went from text 5-10 times a day to 50 times one day. I happened to have to take S17 by the house that night and that is when they got into a physical altercation and what she used to file false RO against me.  I hadn't even left the car, let alone go in the house.  But I darn sure had recorder going, incidentally capturing son's statement of what happened right after the event.

Looking back the huge uptick in texts prior was a major red flag I missed.

[buterfly]

I left during a rage, many times. Granted we have no children (but took both dogs to prove appoint) I left permanently after a rage the next day. I had endured enough... .

If you leave in a rage, man or woman it's an issue of your safety. You did not feel safe, and that is what you bring up in a court of law if you have too.

Then... .If you left the residence... .It's not because you wanted to, but because you hadno choice.

[livednlearned]

I left during a rage, many times. Granted we have no children (but took both dogs to prove appoint) I left permanently after a rage the next day. I had endured enough... .

If you leave in a rage, man or woman it's an issue of your safety. You did not feel safe, and that is what you bring up in a court of law if you have too.

Then... .If you left the residence... .It's not because you wanted to, but because you hadno choice.

Yeah, if it's an issue of safety, then safety first.

It's complicated with kids though. You leave for your safety, but not for theirs -- that's not going to go over well in court. And then if you get into the custody battle saying her rages are dangerous and you want primary custody, but then she says you left the kids with her during a rage... .

You can do it and land on your feet, but you have to know how court works and think 10 steps ahead.