Guilt, Confusion... Can She Change?

[Lost23]

If anyone has read my into they know the turmoil I've lived in lately since the separation, plus what happened in the r/s. If not, well we all have fairly similar stories, I'm sure you get the idea. Here is my predicament lately. Lots of FOG. She has no one left. Replacement is gone, supposedly of her choice, and has been for a month(ish). All mutual friends want nothing to do with her. Her family has never been supportive. Basically she is 100% alone. She finally started working AND has been consistently going to therapy and facing this head-on, something I see a lot of pwBPD on here refuse to do. She is aware of her mistakes and has been for almost 2 months now, not painting black, accepting responsibility. She is extremely depressed and yes, suicidal. Her 30th birthday is coming up and she is very likely going to spend it alone. She keeps telling me that she needs help to get through this, she is sorry for everything and wants to change but she can't do it alone. I'm afraid of both scenarios basically. I feel for her, even without FOG, for someone to accept their illness and face it with no one by their side for support, must be terrifying. And even without the illness, just depression and the situation, I don't even blame her for feeling like she has nothing because... .well she doesn't. I know it's not my fault nor my responsibility... .and so does she. And that's what confuses me. Can she get better? Can she change? If I were to go in, guarded, but gave her a chance as long as she remained committed to change, what are the odds of history repeating itself again? Isn't she going to be even more needy than before, all things considered? And beyond all that, how would I let go of the image of the loser-replacement that was in my house, with her, over the summer? If things go south again, how do we explain it to the kids... .again? I feel like I need to make a decision soon. I feel like she is at a crossroad where she is either going to get better or spiral into a place where she'll not recover. I just don't know what the right thing to do is... .not just for right now, but for the long term. Help?

[Silveron]

Well, the only thing you can do is not worry about the long-term.  You can't control that so worrying over it is not going to change anything and only give you anxiety.  The one word that stood out in your post was the word 'Illness'.  Which is what it is.  She is now doing her part and it's something you have to accept that it's the illness that has caused this.  If you can accept that and show patience and support then I see a much better future for you both.

I would go back with a condition that she continues therapy until her therapist says she no longer needs it and that it's something you have to hear from the therapist yourself.  You also should be setting boundaries that are deal-breakers if she were to cross them.  This gives you a sense of security and a set of guidelines to go by.

Consider yourself lucky that she has accepted her issues and is getting help.  Many, such as my wife refuses to and believes she has no problems even after the psychologist wanted to see her for long term (years).  With the right help and support your nightmare 'should' be coming to an end.  Many of us still live in ours.

[Lost23]

47 views and nobody else has any advice?

Don't get  me wrong Silveron, I'm taking to heart what you said. But it'd be nice to hear from others too... .

One thing I struggle with... .how do I get the 'replacement' out of my head if we do recycle? I knew this ___hole, once upon a time. I know his face, his voice... .how can I be... .intimate? Without anger and hurt?

[Infern0]

That's something you need to process within yourself.

If you love this girl and want to try again then full power to you.  Just be aware of F.O.G.

What you need to do is take time to clear your head and think rationally about things. Kind of review the relationship and question if it's going how you want it and if it's good for you.  Just make sure your brain doesn't get turned off and you end up sucked down the rabbit hole.

With regards to the replacement yeah it sucks,  but guess what she been with other people before you and you have too. It's something you need to decide if you can look past it. 

[Fatherwith2girls]

My wife has been fixing her own behavior and patterns on her own lately. We are still together, no one has left, but there has been past infidelity. I think mostly time will heal that issue and you can't hold it against her over time if you accept her back in your life.  My wife has ONLY decided to change because I told her it's over. I had tried repeatedly for the last couple of years to tell her she was pushing me away with her behavior.  She wouldn't accept it, but since I made it completely clear that I was done she decided it was too important to stay married and has begun picking up the pieces.  The only problem is now I don't want to change. I don't want to accept the new her.

I feel scared she's only doing this to get my acceptance and then she's going to revert. I guess the only way I can figure it out is to stay together and try to not be cynical.  In all outward appearance she is doing this long term, but there are some behaviors she has done which make me heavily question her motives. When I bring up the things (texting her sister's guy friend who obviously thinks he's going to hook up with her, snapping at the kids, saying she's going to do certain revengeful things) she stops doing them for a while. It's so hard to figure out if she's going to maintain the positive steps to a healthy relationship.  If we stay together I think she at least can see that her behavior has helped hold us together.

If you really love her and think the positive steps she's taking are for her own good (not just to get you back) I think it's worth giving it a shot.  Like I said, time should help heal your wounds.

[Lost23]

I almost went back in, yesterday actually. Then I found out (through my daughter) the replacement is NOT gone. I spoke to the ex today about it and she said that she would rather be with me but if I don't want her she's not going to be alone and needs him to move forward. I understand it (from the BPD perspective anyways) but I don't know how to feel about it. I was very upset yesterday and it felt like a reminder of all the pain I've endured. But then she was very clear and honest about it. 'He's not a replacement for you but if you don't want to be with me, what else can I do? I can't sit here alone every day'. I dunno. More advice needed, some clarity, insight, etc. I do believe she is still trying to change and haven't seen much to make me think otherwise, but I guess it does hurt my pride/ego to know this jacks*** is still lingering around. There is a kind of validation though in knowing that if I walked back in he'd get the quick sweet boot goodbye.

[Lost23]

So this was our last conversation on the topic and again, I'd like at least some insight. It doesn't feel like gas lighting, it feels like honesty and maturity, I want to take it serious but I am afraid of FOG. So some words, any, would be appreciated. I'll start it at kind of a midpoint and relay how it got there. I was stressed and upset about the mention of the replacement (see above) and she texted me the next morning saying she was sad we didn't spend more time together for her birthday. I kind of unloaded then was trying to apologize.

Me: This isn't fair to you. I don't like having to be a mind reader so I can't expect that of you. Just understand that it's not pain that there is someone else in general, it's who it is. It's an acknowledgement of 2+ years of mental suffering.

Her: Nothing happened while we were together but I'm still sorry for having hurt you.

Me: It's fine. I should be over it by now. It's my problem, not yours. That's why I just left yesterday. I was trying to make sure you had a nice birthday so when I felt upset I thought it was better to just go and not put that on you.

Her:I would have wanted to help. I'm sorry for all my faults but I'm also very caring and affectionate. Balances it out slightly.

Me: I know you are. But you're also oblivious when you cause pain and reluctant to do anything about it. I have my own wounds now too. I struggle. I'm sorry.

Her: I can't help?

Me: I don't know. I don't have to feel these things if I don't think about us. Like I said if my guard was up I wouldn't have cared yesterday. But if I care then everything that hurts me is real and now.

Her: Are you happier without me then? If I move forward and stop bugging you about us?

Me: I don't know. I'm sorry. I don't know if I romanticize the past and it's all just an unreal fantasy. I don't know if I'd ever be able to not get the sick image of (replacement) touching you out of my head. Or the knowledge that in 2 years you'd rather try him out then have tried to fix what it did to me in the first place. Or that our past meant so little that you even considered it an option.

Her: I'm sorry. That's not how it was for me but I understand how it seems like that.

Me: This is why I said I can be of more help in an outside role. As soon as I let myself feel with you the pain floods in. It's not your fault now. You can't know what I was thinking. I'm sorry. I'll go back to being supportive.

Her: I want to help.

Me: It's ok. I'm fine. Just a wake up call back to reality I guess.

Her: I want to be your reality. I do lots of good things too. I could make you happier than anyone. That I am sure of.

Me: You can also hurt me more than anyone.

Her: I'm in therapy so I can have better control of that. I'm going as often as my schedule will allow me to. I am trying to better myself in every way.

Me: I know. I'm proud of you. I don't want my problems to get in the way of your success.

Her: I have to fix anything that I've caused.

Me: Not everything can be fixed.

Her: Thing get bent not broken. You're not in the way. I can't be fixed if you're not. We will always have a special connection like that. I don't want to move on and have you want me later when I've bettered myself in every way I can cuz then I will look back with regret. I also don't want to wait around cuz it doesn't seem to benefit either of us. And I don't want to wait and find out you still don't want me and have pushed away someone else that wants to give me their time. I know these are just life's tough choices but it still sucks.

Me: I know. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have got upset today. I have a better hold on my feelings usually.

Her: Don't be sorry. It's ok to share with me how you feel especially if I'm causing it.

Lengthy but that's more or less it. So, thoughts?

[vortex of confusion]

So this was our last conversation on the topic and again, I'd like at least some insight. It doesn't feel like gas lighting, it feels like honesty and maturity, I want to take it serious but I am afraid of FOG. So some words, any, would be appreciated. I'll start it at kind of a midpoint and relay how it got there. I was stressed and upset about the mention of the replacement (see above) and she texted me the next morning saying she was sad we didn't spend more time together for her birthday. I kind of unloaded then was trying to apologize.

Sure, it feels like honest maturity in the moment. In the moment, it feels great to have a discussion like the one you have set out here. However, in my 18 years with my husband, I have learned not to get so hopeful. My husband can say everything that I want or need to hear and then not actually DO anything. So, be very, very careful about listening to their words. Pay attention to the actions. In my mind, if somebody genuinely wants to be with you, they are not going to be chasing people on the side and they are not going to try to keep you on the hook so they don't regret things later. I have a "friend" on the side. If I thought that there was any hope with my husband, I would cut that off in an instant. Really, I don't trust my husband to do a single thing he says. I am pretty sure that if some girl tried to get with him, he would immediately start talking about divorce and forget that I exist. He actually did that to me recently. He went to his high school reunion and was telling a girl from school that he was getting a divorce. She is getting a divorce as well and it seemed like he was trying to pull one over.

Me: This isn't fair to you. I don't like having to be a mind reader so I can't expect that of you. Just understand that it's not pain that there is someone else in general, it's who it is. It's an acknowledgement of 2+ years of mental suffering.

Why does this one specific person bother you so much? Can you honestly say that you wouldn't have been bothered if it had been somebody else? Me, I didn't care who it was, I didn't like it. I also didn't like it when he would choose porn, computer games, and anything and everything else over me. For me, it was always about the fact that he would say that I was a priority but his actions never bore that out.

Me: I don't know. I'm sorry. I don't know if I romanticize the past and it's all just an unreal fantasy. I don't know if I'd ever be able to not get the sick image of (replacement) touching you out of my head. Or the knowledge that in 2 years you'd rather try him out then have tried to fix what it did to me in the first place. Or that our past meant so little that you even considered it an option.

I don't think they are capable of understanding stuff like this. I was with my husband for 15 years when he decided that we should be in an open relationship. The day after our 15th wedding anniversary, he was trying to pick out guys for me to go f**k. Nothing gets him more excited than the idea of me being with other people. So, he seems to be incapable of comprehending that I don't like sharing my man with other people. I just don't. And it isn't that he was with other people, it was that he would tell me how much he loved me and tell me a bunch of crap and I would buy it and then he would go give all of his attention to these other people. Even now, he isn't seeing anybody or talking to any other women and he is going to counseling and a 12 step program but he cannot/will not commit to our relationship. If he gets upset about me having my friend, I ask him, "What the h*ll did you expect would happen when you pushed your wife off on other men? You used me as your own personal ___ to fulfill your fantasies. And now you are upset with me because I have a male friend." I know that I should get rid of my friend but I refuse to do it. I have spent a whole lot of years trying to communicate with my husband and let him know how much some of his behavior has hurt me. If he told me that the sky was blue, I would have to go outside and see if for myself.

Her: I'm in therapy so I can have better control of that. I'm going as often as my schedule will allow me to. I am trying to better myself in every way.

Going to therapy doesn't amount to much unless the person actually wants to change and make things better. Some people go to therapy as a way to use it as a crutch and beat you over the head with it. Maybe I am being cynical but my husband will say stuff like, "I am going to my 12 step programs and therapy." It is all about what he is doing and how he is in recovery. I am not going to put much stock in anything until I see a significant change in his behavior. I am trying to be patient and give him time but it can be very difficult because he has been giving me the same line of ___ for 16 or so years. (Married 16.5 years but together close to 18.)

Her: Thing get bent not broken. You're not in the way. I can't be fixed if you're not. We will always have a special connection like that. I don't want to move on and have you want me later when I've bettered myself in every way I can cuz then I will look back with regret. I also don't want to wait around cuz it doesn't seem to benefit either of us. And I don't want to wait and find out you still don't want me and have pushed away someone else that wants to give me their time. I know these are just life's tough choices but it still sucks.

  Um, the two of you should be able to work on things apart from the relationship. Your moving forward is not contingent upon her and her moving forward should not be contingent upon you. This is big time fogging. I know how difficult it is to move forward with somebody that can't commit to anything or anyone but wants you to be able to commit to them. It is very confusing. They want you to give them all of the answers and tell them what to do but then get mad when you do.

[Lost23]

Thank you for responding. I been feeling a little lost in the shuffle lately. I guess for me it's that this is the first time in 12 years where she has acknowledged it's derived from her issues and is trying to do something about it. As far as the specific person bothering me, it's because 2 years ago she smeared me to create a connection with him when I thought everything was fine. When I found out she did nothing about it and still talked to him off and on. On the subject of her keeping him around, it's not like I've given her any reason to think I will be with her. That conversation was probably the only one we've had like it in several months. Aside from that I've been adamant that no, I'm not interested. And yes the co-dependancy and fogging was pretty apparent in that one message, I just included it for the flow of conversation.

[vortex of confusion]

Thank you for responding. I been feeling a little lost in the shuffle lately. I guess for me it's that this is the first time in 12 years where she has acknowledged it's derived from her issues and is trying to do something about it.

Yes, acknowledging that is has derived from her issues is a HUGE step for her. I wasn't trying to discount that. I was pointing out how easy it is for that to contribute to the FOG. I wanted my husband to get help, change, do something different for years. He would acknowledge that he had issues but he did very little to actually change. Even now, he is in therapy and is going to a 12 step program. At one time, I would have been very happy about it and would have pretty much let go of any and all pain and resentments. In the past, I saw that as offering me lots of hope. And so, it made me afraid to put up boundaries or insist that I be treated better. I was afraid that if I tried to take care of myself it would cause him to backslide. So, I would get all happy and be cool with it all because "at least he was trying". I am at a point where, yes, I can acknowledge his efforts but I am trying to stay detached and not get too invested in this notion that things are going to change or that it will have a lasting impact on anything. It is what it is. Unless or until I see concrete changes, I am going to encourage him and support him but try not to put any stock in it.

As far as the specific person bothering me, it's because 2 years ago she smeared me to create a connection with him when I thought everything was fine. When I found out she did nothing about it and still talked to him off and on.

I know how difficult it is when they smear you to somebody else. Mine did that to me when he was courting some other chick. He told her that I refused to have sex with him and didn't tell him I love him any more. He made me sound horrible to her. I don't know if I did the right thing or not but I emailed her and told her exactly what was going on. She cut it off with him because he had told her that he was interested in learning about BDSM and stuff like that. I had brought that up with him to try to spice things up and he was appalled by it and said that there was no way he could do anything like that because it was all too violent. She had added him to a bunch of groups and was trying to "mentor" him. I didn't hate her or get mad at her because all she knew is what he told her. Keep that in mind. The person that she was with and smeared you to does NOT have an accurate picture of what is or was going on.

On the subject of her keeping him around, it's not like I've given her any reason to think I will be with her. That conversation was probably the only one we've had like it in several months. Aside from that I've been adamant that no, I'm not interested. And yes the co-dependancy and fogging was pretty apparent in that one message, I just included it for the flow of conversation.

Now I am a bit confused. :-) If you have not given her any reason to think that you will be with her, why would she stay single or refrain from dating other people? Why is who she with any of your business if you are not interested in her and have made it clear that you don't want to be with her? Oh, I know full well why it bugs you. It bugged the heck out of me too. How can this person sit here and try to keep me on the hook while clearly looking for other connections? He would say one thing yet do something else entirely different. It is very difficult to sort that out because at the end of the day I felt like I was caught in a vortex of confusion and couldn't make heads or tails out of anything.