How did you do it?

[Aussie JJ]

I wont say the circumstances specifically as it would be easy to pick up for anyone reading externally however I am just dead at the end of today.  I just need to know how to get back from this, I had to sit through it today and it was ok then but is tearing me apart now. 

I had to sit with her for 2 hours today and with a psychologist who has seen both of us separately for an hour to go through what is best for our son a few times as well.  My lawyer has set this up and the psychologist isn't stupid she can see my ex's behaviours and I have subtly highlighted them along the way.  Nothing came from it.  2 hours today, ___ it was painful. 

I walked out so destroyed.  I thought I had progress, I allowed her to put me down and didn't attack back, it was so painful doing this a few times now.  I feel like a shadow of myself now that I basically didn't defend myself.  I know I cant be like her but I just want to literally open up explaining her actual thought patterns as they happen.  I can do it with every second example she spits out and know how to point out when she is objectifying etc and pull the pieces apart.  It is my coping mechanism to not get emotional but I cant use it. 

I had her with one example say I never supported her with school and uni and I was a bad partner never supporting her efforts to further her education.  I looked at her and said I gave you permission to travel interstate to study at the start of the year and lined up alternate work for myself so I could move and still see our son and support him if you took up that opportunity.  I supported you for 12 months as well after our son was born with you staying home and caring for him while i worked 2 jobs to pay all the bills.  Please don't degrade my efforts as a spouse, father or partner in the past or the present.  I am a good person and wont allow lies to be told about me. 

I then got told off for not validating her feelings, the psychologist said I shouldn't say that. 

I said I understand those feelings are true to her however they are not factual.  I wont validate a invalid statement as it encourages a unhealthy thought pattern.  Both of them looked at me and the psychologist looked so bloody uncomfortable like I had just steamrolled her. 

I know I am being very straight forward, have even enforced the boundary of not being yelled at by walking out for a time out a few times when she has escalated.  I just want to flattern her and explain the bloody crazyness of the situation.  Let her document I know.  The psychologist allows me to respond and doesnt question me with my responses, doesnt write in her notes when i am talking and writes lots when my ex is talking. I am at the point where I cant actually sit there with her though. 

I feel so awful at the end of it.  I know I have to get through it but I am really struggling.  Doesnt she realise that all of this is to be used in court, cant she see she is serving up her issues on a platter, ___ it hurts though.  I want to just be done with her. 

Wondering how others got through this stuff, no it isn't at court yet, solicitor says to let her have as many opportunities as possible to stuff up in-front of professionals.  I know its the correct thing however it hurts like hell. 


AJJ. 

[Waddams]

I totally get this.  It feels like the professionals all enable the abuse from our ex-'s to continue, and then tell us if we object/act to protect ourselves/etc. that we are wrong.

All this really builds up to what's basically a single moment in court where (hopefully) the judge looks at it all and rules in a way that is validating for us.  And keeping your cool and surviving the gamut of emotions up to that point is just plain hard.  And then sometimes, that validating experience doesn't happen.  It's a real roller coaster.

As for what your STBX realizes will be used later and what she doesn't get, the only thing she gets right now, especially sitting next to you, is that she's angry at you and she'll stop at nothing to twist everything into you being the bad guy.  All she can do is vent all that rage at you, and she very likely can't manage another thought.  There's no reasoning with it, there's no changing it.  For me personally, there is only developing really thick skin and remembering that it's all based purely on a fantasy constructed in my XW's mind.  I didn't do anything wrong, I never did, and she's to this day (almost 6 years past when the D was final) still completely entrenched in a mindset that she's not responsible for anything or any outcome in her life.  What has made her more angry than anything else is being confronted with the reality of how wrong she is and not being able to disregard the truth because I won't go along with her BS in a way that would let her.

Things for me got better emotionally when I realized she wasn't trying to help make anything better.  She was only focused on hurting me.  I stopped trying to figure out cooperative solutions and started putting my own self first.

[Vienna]

Hello "How did you do it?"

I'll be going to mediation in a few weeks with my lawyer to 'mediate' with BPD husband and his lawyer. The thought of seeing him again, especially with a young, woman lawyer who will have been convinced that he walks on water and that I am a horrible monster turns my stomach in knots.  It helped to read your post. So, thanks for sharing. I applaud your courage in remaining silent. All the best, Vienna

[Boss302]

I wont say the circumstances specifically as it would be easy to pick up for anyone reading externally however I am just dead at the end of today.  I just need to know how to get back from this, I had to sit through it today and it was ok then but is tearing me apart now.  

I had to sit with her for 2 hours today and with a psychologist who has seen both of us separately for an hour to go through what is best for our son a few times as well.  My lawyer has set this up and the psychologist isn't stupid she can see my ex's behaviours and I have subtly highlighted them along the way.  Nothing came from it.  2 hours today, ___ it was painful.  

I walked out so destroyed.  I thought I had progress, I allowed her to put me down and didn't attack back, it was so painful doing this a few times now.  I feel like a shadow of myself now that I basically didn't defend myself.  I know I cant be like her but I just want to literally open up explaining her actual thought patterns as they happen.  I can do it with every second example she spits out and know how to point out when she is objectifying etc and pull the pieces apart.  It is my coping mechanism to not get emotional but I cant use it.  

I had her with one example say I never supported her with school and uni and I was a bad partner never supporting her efforts to further her education.  I looked at her and said I gave you permission to travel interstate to study at the start of the year and lined up alternate work for myself so I could move and still see our son and support him if you took up that opportunity.  I supported you for 12 months as well after our son was born with you staying home and caring for him while i worked 2 jobs to pay all the bills.  Please don't degrade my efforts as a spouse, father or partner in the past or the present.  I am a good person and wont allow lies to be told about me.  

I then got told off for not validating her feelings, the psychologist said I shouldn't say that.  

I said I understand those feelings are true to her however they are not factual.  I wont validate a invalid statement as it encourages a unhealthy thought pattern.  Both of them looked at me and the psychologist looked so bloody uncomfortable like I had just steamrolled her.  

I know I am being very straight forward, have even enforced the boundary of not being yelled at by walking out for a time out a few times when she has escalated.  I just want to flattern her and explain the bloody crazyness of the situation.  Let her document I know.  The psychologist allows me to respond and doesnt question me with my responses, doesnt write in her notes when i am talking and writes lots when my ex is talking. I am at the point where I cant actually sit there with her though.  

I feel so awful at the end of it.  I know I have to get through it but I am really struggling.  :)oesnt she realise that all of this is to be used in court, cant she see she is serving up her issues on a platter, ___ it hurts though.  I want to just be done with her.  

Wondering how others got through this stuff, no it isn't at court yet, solicitor says to let her have as many opportunities as possible to stuff up in-front of professionals.  I know its the correct thing however it hurts like hell.  


AJJ.  

First, it sounds like you're at the end, so thank God for that.  

Second, I understand why you're so focused on things like "I never supported her with school and uni and I was a bad partner never supporting her efforts to further her education" - it hurts to have accusations thrown at you. But it sounds like you're making this a public relations war with this psychologist, and it isn't. I mean, the marriage is broken, and if it weren't, you wouldn't be getting divorced. The only question before this psychologist now is the best way to handle the kids. Therefore, the only relevant "rehashing" of the past would be about how you are as a parent. She probably doesn't care about the stupid fights you guys got into while married over things like money, or child-rearing. She wants to hear about who will be the better parent. But BPDw isn't going down that road, is she? Nope... .she's focused on spewing her anger at you about issues completely unrelated to child-rearing.

So... .let her spew. She's making a poor case for herself. Or would YOU be more inclined to give custody to someone whose sole focus was on how bad her mean old soon-to-be ex was to her, versus her qualifications for raising the kids? With BPDs, it's all about them. So let it be. And she'll do nothing but splay out enough rope to hang herself with.

This is exactly what my BPDx did... .she spent years making all kinds of accusations about me, and the end, failed utterly at every basic task a mother can possibly be asked to perform - the evidence indicated she didn't provide a decent home to live in, didn't deal with their medical and dental issues, and didn't even make sure they went to school. But the same evidence sure indicated she thought I was a rotten, rotten guy. And to the court, that wasn't all that relevant, in the end.

So... .hang in there. If you did the the best you could do as a husband and parent, then believe that. Take it to heart. That's why it's so difficult to hear all the accusations (I know, because I've been there). But if you believe it, and put it into practice, then the right people will figure that out. And let BPDw blow herself up.

I know it's hard... .but there's little you can do about it.

[maxen]

If you did the the best you could do as a husband and parent, then believe that. Take it to heart.

wise words. it's one thing to know something, it's another thing to believe it to the point of acting on it naturally, reflexively. during a divorce is an inconvenient time but maybe the best time to learn how.

[ForeverDad]

Choose your battles.  Fight for the important things first.

I recall my lawyer asking me once, ":)o you want a $5K divorce or a $30K divorce?"  (Yes, it ended up being expensive anyway.)  His point was that I could fight every little issue but the return on investment (ROI) would be minimal.  So sit down and write out all the issues you have.  Then prioritize them.  The important ones and Must-Haves go at the top.  Then the things almost as important but not as crucial.  Then the little stuff.

Remember to always keep the priorities in mind. One time I had a hearing in court and we covered only the first few items.  I had a list of 11 issues.  I had them grouped by categories, not by priorities.  Ouch!  I walked out saying, "But what about... ."  Lesson learned.

[livednlearned]

Hi AussieJJ,

I'm proud of you for speaking up for yourself with the psychologist. Once our cases become entangled in the legal battle, it's important to stick to the facts, just like you did. It might not validate how your wife feels, but validating someone's feelings -- genuinely validating them -- requires sincerity that is hard to feel in the best of circumstances, much less in a manufactured therapy session when the wheels of court are turning and you're ordered to play nice with someone with an untreated mental illness.

It's not easy to switch thought patterns and coping skills in highly charged emotional situations like this. You were in a difficult situation -- the psychologist was recording what was being said. It's a very unnatural situation -- critics of our court system always point out that family court is the only one that makes people go to therapy. My lawyer suggested coparenting therapy too and I panicked. I couldn't bring myself to go through it. Unfortunately, when N/BPDx began to represent himself (he's a former trial lawyer), I had to experience the profound hell of being cross-examined by my mentally ill ex husband. Court makes it hard to move on.

My only advice is to go easy on yourself and don't beat yourself up for defaulting to old coping mechanisms. It takes a lot of time and distance and healing, especially with the people who have caused us the greatest amount of pain. You did a lot of things that show great strength. You took a time out and in my opinion, you gave the psychologist some serious material to think about. Getting involved in high-conflict divorces is a lucrative business and it shouldn't be called therapy. There are so many hacks out there and many of them don't have a clue what's going on, and we are ordered to put ourselves in front of people who simply become key witnesses, often with very little input from us about whether we trust their abilities.

It feels awful to sit through these things, but you did well. It will get better -- maybe never easy -- but it takes time. And if you lit into her or spoke your mind, chances are it would cause more problems than solve.

[Aussie JJ]

This isn't even the court appointed stuff, my lawyer set it up so there is a bucket-load of her spewing hate on me.  He wants to give her the opportunity to hang herself so to speak.  Make it so I'm trying everything out of court and get answers ready for court hence not defending myself or pointing out her actions to her. 

I will have to go through all of this again however there will be notes on this session and observations from this person for the next.  More testimony that she doesn't listen and basically the pattern of escalating her demands. 

I know its all for show, however she doesn't know about me knowing about her new supply. 

Hence when it gets to court me saying, it feels like she is trying to re-parent our son.  All the activities I do with him he very shortly afterwards does with John and he is very happy about them.  At first this destroyed me, I knew not to ask questions however as long as he is happy that's ok with me.  I just wish she allowed me to be his father respected my role in his life and didn't try to re-parent him as I feel is happening.  I have made sure I haven't asked her about this as when her last bf found out she was going out with me back in 2010 she had a breakdown, cried in the fetal position and pissed her pants at a family gathering.  I am fearful of this reaction whilst our son is in her care. 

I have to stfu until then.  Then let the lawyer ask the questions of her and the professionals. 

[Boss302]

I have made sure I haven't asked her about this as when her last bf found out she was going out with me back in 2010 she had a breakdown, cried in the fetal position and pissed her pants at a family gathering. 

Any chance these folks might be called to testify, by chance? 

[livednlearned]

I have made sure I haven't asked her about this as when her last bf found out she was going out with me back in 2010 she had a breakdown, cried in the fetal position and pissed her pants at a family gathering. 

Any chance these folks might be called to testify, by chance? 

If not, then maybe a deposition. Is that something your L has experience with? It can be a very effective way to get testimony into court. Sometimes, what pwBPD say is worse than anything anyone else might say about them. 

[Aussie JJ]

Both her parents saw it, they will have to be deposed anyway. 

Also she used to work at the social studies area of university.  All her bosses were psychologists etc.  She had a breakdown twice at work and they are aware of her mental health problems.  I am not telling her all of this ___ because she chooses to not remember it. 

It wont be a knife fight it will be a blood bath.  That is what scares me.  I actually don't want to have her breakdown, how will that effect our son if she is like that again.  All the solicitor has to do is ask her how she feels about her actions in XYZ situation and then remind her she is responsible for how she acts etc.  I don't know how to get a deposition out of her current BF but solicitor says he will get it as she has said "her psychologist" said it wasn't appropriate for me to have son overnight.  She will have to provide psychologists details.  She hasn't been seeing one and her new BF is studying clinical psychology at uni.  a few questions will bring this to the forefront... .

It will be a blood bath and I know she will have a breakdown.  She is trying to manage atm and hide it but I am afraid in honesty of how much I am going to hurt her.  I know it isn't my concern but I don't want to stoop to her level. 

[ForeverDad]

She is an adult and is blocking as much of your parenting as she can, any way she can.  You priority must be (1) yourself so you can parent and (2) your child.  So if she suffers a breakdown, you are not responsible for her.  If she blames you, well, that's already the case so no change there.  If she is more oppositional, well, that's already the case so no change there either.

Sadly, based upon her actions and established pattern of behavior, you have to do what you have to do.  Yes, you won't lie like she is so willing to do, but you do have to shine the light of day on everything and not allow her to hide the facts that need outing.  View it like an operation.  In order to get well (be an involved parent) you need to cut out the diseased flesh (expose the lies and reveal the truth).  Along the way it may be painful, but the long term outlook by getting it done is that the patient has a better future.

I know it isn't my concern but I don't want to stoop to her level.

I don't see that logic.  How would you be stooping to her level?  She doesn't want you to parent versus you want to parent.  There's no other way to establish that you are a reasonably normal person who just wants to be a reasonably and normally involved parent.  Period.  That it is unreasonably fighting, that is something SHE owns, not you.  Rather than stooping to her level, you're pulling everything out of the mud of blaming and shining a light on it in court.

"Stooping to her level" indicates you're doing something wrong - and seeking to gain and protect your parenting is not wrong.  Nothing wrong at all!  Can you step outside the immediacy of the emotions and conflict and see that you're only doing what has to be done?

Here's one way to gain better perspective and objectivity.  If you read a post of someone registering here and reporting that his/her parenting was being unreasonably blocked, and the responses were that the blocked and obstructed parent should go to court, get depositions, get professional evaluations and seek the court's authority to limit the ex's whims and unilateral demands, what would you think?  Would you think those methods were stooping to the ex's level?  I thought not.  So ponder over your own willingness to guilt yourself.  Do you see how a lack of objectivity can put you at risk of perhaps sabotaging your own case for more parenting?

[Lucky One]

I totally get this.  It feels like the professionals all enable the abuse from our ex-'s to continue, and then tell us if we object/act to protect ourselves/etc. that we are wrong.


Things for me got better emotionally when I realized she wasn't trying to help make anything better.  She was only focused on hurting me.  I stopped trying to figure out cooperative solutions and started putting my own self first.

I'm NOT in the Divorce courts yet, but have been threatened with it, but can understand fully the two above remarks.

Both, happened, and are still happening, to me exactly. Amazing sometimes that we experience similar things.

Thanks for sharing.

[Boss302]

It will be a blood bath and I know she will have a breakdown.  She is trying to manage atm and hide it but I am afraid in honesty of how much I am going to hurt her.  I know it isn't my concern but I don't want to stoop to her level. 

You're feeling responsible for her problems, and I understand why - it's F.O.G. and co-dependence - but she's a grown woman, and she's responsible for her own well being. You're probably so used to taking care of her that it has become second nature. But you're not required to be her caretaker anymore. Those days are done. You're responsible for your well being, and your child's... .and that's it. If she has a breakdown, and it affects your child, then there are ways of dealing with that.

She's on her own now. You need to take that to heart, as hard as it is. I know how hard it is - I blamed myself for a lot of what went wrong with my ex after I left her too. That's part of being a BPD caretaker. For you to build a healthy life for yourself, you need to start putting yourself first. There's nothing wrong with that.

[livednlearned]

AussieJJ,

My son witnessed N/BPDx having a psychotic episode. I understand why you are concerned about the safety of your child -- you don't want to trigger dangerous behavior in your ex because you want to protect your son. Is that right?

Your son is probably going to witness a breakdown at some point, no matter what you do or don't do. And when it happens, he will need help making sense of it. Therapy might help some, but in my situation, I found that having my own therapist was even more important, so I knew what to say to my son to help him work through it. After N/BPDx's episode, I didn't know whether to resume normal life, and if so, how was that going to be helpful. My instinct was to protect S13 and keep him close, but I got a lot of good advice about how to talk to S13, what we needed to do in order to help heal what he had been through. That night was the closest thing to hell I have ever experienced. Friends on this board literally carried me through the darkest hours I've ever experienced.

It also ended up being one of the best things to happen. Not just for therapeutic reasons, but legally as well. Therapeutically, it launched me into some of the most important healing I had experienced, and I took S13 with me. That night was a watershed moment and it shook the fear, obligation, guilt stuff out of my system for good. I grew my titanium backbone that goes with me everywhere these days. My son is growing his because he sees how well mine works for me. It took an exasperating amount of time to get the court to do the right thing, and the cost makes me feel sick just thinking about it, but I ended up with full custody. Currently there is no visitation.

Your ex is responsible for her mental health, and just like you and me, she has the same choices. She can get help. Any breakdown she has will be the function of her own behaviors and thoughts and feelings, not yours.

My ex's breakdown was the result of the classic BPD thing where feelings = facts. He selected a couple of random facts and packed them in extreme feelings and tried to convince everyone those facts were why he was justified feeling and acting the way he did. Anyone can grab any facts and make it sound like a trigger. That doesn't mean those facts, presented in those ways, are true or real or right. And even if those facts are about you and your behaviors, that doesn't mean you caused her to interpret them in a crazy way. She does that all by herself.

When N/BPx had to defend his actions the night he had his episode, he blamed everyone else. Me, the doctor who gave him medication, my lawyer, my boss, an old professor, plus an imaginary person N/BPDx thought I had an affair with, some poor guy on LinkedIn who must have received one crazy email that night. There is no basis in reality for what led to the breakdown, and no one is to blame for that breakdown except N/BPDx. It's all him, and it's all his to fix.

If you are worried, contact someone who lives close to your ex and let them know that she has a history of breakdowns, and you just want someone close by you can call to make sure your son is ok. Enlist people to help you manage this. If you focus on what is best for your son, they will more than likely take to heart what you are asking them to do.

And find out from law enforcement how things work there. If you suspect something is happening that worries you, ask if they do well-child checks, and talk to your lawyer about the consequences of doing that, of not doing that. Be sure to find out (if you can) what criteria they use to determine whether the child should be removed, who will be called first, and what the process is for getting your son.

I'm sorry you have to worry about this. It's not for the weak of heart.

[Aussie JJ]

Papers served!

She has control again, notice of an intervention order.  WOW, so predictable.  Good thing I can prove everything is bull___ that she has accused me of :D. 


AJJ. 

[toomanytears]

Hello "How did you do it?"

I'll be going to mediation in a few weeks with my lawyer to 'mediate' with BPD husband and his lawyer. The thought of seeing him again, especially with a young, woman lawyer who will have been convinced that he walks on water and that I am a horrible monster turns my stomach in knots.  It helped to read your post. So, thanks for sharing. I applaud your courage in remaining silent. All the best, Vienna

Hi Vienna

Absolutely understand your fears. I had to see my stbx BPDh in court two days ago ( I posted the experience on this board). I went out of my way to avoid eye contact and looked away when he walked past so have a very limited visual imprint of my BPDh to revisit. That helped in the recovery process. I am suffering from a bit of fall out today but nothing compared to how it would have felt if I had had any direct interaction and allowed him to get under my skin. I don't know how I would have coped in mediation. Good luck and stay strong. Eventually your BPDh will show his true colours.

[ForeverDad]

Papers served!

She has control again, notice of an intervention order.  WOW, so predictable.  Good thing I can prove everything is bull that she has accused me of :D.

Generally this sort of action (intervention, protection, restraining, etc) is only in place long enough to schedule a hearing where both sides can appear and make their respective claims and defenses to the court.  At that point the judge will decide whether to grant it or not and set the terms and conditions.

Even if you have documentation, my lawyer told me that even if a woman claims vague 'fearfulness' that many courts will choose to set some level of intervention.  (My lawyer said no judge wants to deny a motion and read in the headlines that the person was later injured or killed.)  If that happens try your best to get the order to state which claims were denied and which upheld and why.  Remember that if you settle, then you have no option to seek reconsideration, object or appeal.

In my case, I filed for divorce in family court and ex's response was to also file a harassment/stalking petition in civil court.  All bogus of course.  We settled rather than have the judge possibly grant up to 5 years.  So it ended within the year, excluded son, no findings were made and no guilt assigned and best of all it was a type of agreement that my lawyer said would end at the stated date and could not be extended.

I'm not saying to settle, just that you can weigh the issues and decide how you want to resolve it, by decision or by settlement.  (You probably can't do that with criminal or felony charges since a plea deal would generally include admission of some level of guilt.)

[Aussie JJ]

Thing is she is tryimg to say i have beem followimg her for 2 months and is only reporting it now.  I dont know what she will and wont make up or lie about.  I have recordings of handovers and now a whitness at every handover.  I havent been allowed any of the paperwork yet that the police are basing intervention order on. 

Thing is, she is actually hurting her case here with some of the stuff she has said long term.  She cries after picking up our son and often is upset and very emotional.  I have her on tape happy and bubbly then i jave her sad anf mpuse like.  Also i jave her getting angry and yelling at me. 

She has asked to sort everything out over coffee and talk through things that way... .  then wpnt ait in the same room at a medical appointment.