Asking children in advance

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I have d15 and s13 and BPDw to whom I have been married almost 20 years. 

After a recent tantrum involving breaking a door down which I had locked to get away from BPDw's raging, I went to see a lawyer about what my options were if I decide to end the marriage. They were actually a lot better than expected as I was told the children would have a big say in where they lived, there would be no spousal support (just child maintenance) & a 40/60 asset split in BPDw's favour

One of the pieces of advice the lawyer gave me was that I should ask the children who they would want to live with before coming to any final decisions on the marriage. These things normally go one week on and one week off where I am but d15 does not get on at all well with her BPDw and I suspect would prefer to end up living full time with me especially as she moves towards uni entrance exams. I suspect my son would happily go with a 50/50 arrangement but I would have concerns for him if he ended up spending a lot of the time alone with his Mum who would definately lean on him emotionally I woldn't want to leave him in this position.

The whole idea of asking children in advance what they think on something like this goes against the grain although they have witnessed a lot of arguing and raging over the years.

Just wondering if anyone else had dealt with anything similar & how you approached it

[bpbreakout]

I have d15 and s13 and BPDw to whom I have been married almost 20 years. 

After a recent tantrum involving breaking a door down which I had locked to get away from BPDw's raging, I went to see a lawyer about what my options were if I decide to end the marriage. They were actually a lot better than expected as I was told the children would have a big say in where they lived, there would be no spousal support (just child maintenance) & a 40/60 asset split in BPDw's favour

One of the pieces of advice the lawyer gave me was that I should ask the children who they would want to live with before coming to any final decisions on the marriage. These things normally go one week on and one week off where I am but d15 does not get on at all well with her BPDw and I suspect would prefer to end up living full time with me especially as she moves towards uni entrance exams. I suspect my son would happily go with a 50/50 arrangement but I would have concerns for him if he ended up spending a lot of the time alone with his Mum who would definately lean on him emotionally I woldn't want to leave him in this position.

The whole idea of asking children in advance what they think on something like this goes against the grain although they have witnessed a lot of arguing and raging over the years.

Just wondering if anyone else had dealt with anything similar & how you approached it

[ForeverDad]

One of the pieces of advice the lawyer gave me was that I should ask the children who they would want to live with before coming to any final decisions on the marriage... .

The whole idea of asking children in advance what they think on something like this goes against the grain although they have witnessed a lot of arguing and raging over the years.

Really, would or should asking them make a difference in your decision?  Since they have been exposed to her behaviors in the past you've come to realize that you can't protect your children all the time, it still happened whether you were there or not.

However, the lawyer does have a point, you probably should feel them out so you can make as informed a decision as possible and have as few surprise complications as possible.

Perhaps a better thought would be, can you inform them before it happens so they hear it from you and not her?  Telling them too soon may create a dilemma for them, either they'll feel they're keeping a secret or they might tell her before you're ready.

You may want to see this from an alternate angle.  In the past you and your spouse likely did not set a good model for them regarding marital relationships.  They're likely to gravitate toward similar relationships where one is demanding boss and the other is passive appeaser.  So if you take a stand now for proper behavior and better boundaries they may actually appreciate that improvement.  As in, better late than never.

[ugghh]

Married 26 years, divorced finalized this past July.  At time I filed kids were a bit older, D20, S18, S16 but yes I had conversations off and on with them over the couple years prior to filing about their feelings and preferences of living arrangements etc, if Mom and Dad were to split up.  Kids are much more keenly aware of what is happening than we tend to give them credit for, particularly as they hit high school / secondary school age.

For my kids, instead of a serious sit down, here is what we need to talk about conversation, I would find some time when I was alone with each of them to get a feel for their thoughts, but went out of my way to make them feel whatever they were feeling was okay.  This is definitely a one on one conversation with each kid individually.  I approached it as more of a general inquiry into how they were doing, how did they feel about how things were going at home, did they have friends whose parents where separated, and led more into more of general question of what do you think would make sense for your living arrangements if some day Mom and I were not together.  Again I went out of my way to assure them that whatever happened both parents cared for them and this was not a set in stone decision, but that I though that they deserved to have some input.

As it turned out D20 said live with me full time, S16 said live with me full time and S18 said wanted to split 50/50.  Obviously for the over 18 kids the court has no say so, but I thought it important they knew their voices were heard and that they were not like piece of furniture to be bargained over.

[ugghh]

Forgot to mention when I did finally file, all 3 kids asked why I waited so long? 

[david]

My SS's (her kids from first marriage) sat me down and told me that I needed to divorce their mom.

[bpbreakout]

Thanks for the feedback eveyone

FD - the thing about children appeasing in relationships does worry me. BPDw was previously diagnosed with BP2 but for almost 12 months has had a BPD / BP2 / adhd diagnosis. Due to BP2 diagnosis and some major family problems which were not of her doing I let a lot of things go thinking she couldn't help her behaviour so quite a lot of damage may have been done. I agree a stand now is good especially with the raging but not sure how you can make a stand against all the low level stuff like giving orders, never saying thank-you, being selfish etc, it may be that the only stand against that stuff is to leave

Urrgh, thanks for the feedback I agree more general approach & approaching the subject more than once in a low key kind of way makes a lot of sense. It looks like things turned out pretty well for you in the end. One of the reasons I haven't done anything until now was that the kids were too young and I have been very reluctant for them to spend too much time alone with BPDw (which would have been the case had we shared custody). Now they are teenagers they will have much more of a say be more independent and also more able to form their own opinions seperation feels like a more viable option though I'm still concerned about the impact on s13.

david, thanks for that , it certainly puts things in perspective, those SS's must respect you a lot

[livednlearned]

You may want to see this from an alternate angle.  In the past you and your spouse likely did not set a good model for them regarding marital relationships.  They're likely to gravitate toward similar relationships where one is demanding boss and the other is passive appeaser.  So if you take a stand now for proper behavior and better boundaries they may actually appreciate that improvement.  As in, better late than never.

This is a big deal! The script running through my son's head changed drastically when I stood up for myself and left his dad. I think it gave him a close-up view of what self-respect looked like, and setting boundaries. Four years after leaving N/BPDx, S13 does have some residual struggles that I can see play out with his friends, but at least he has this alternate version of self-respect and self-worth that he knows is possible for himself.

Months after we moved out, my son said, ":)addy must be lonely living there by himself." And without even thinking, I answered, "He should have thought about that when he was being mean to us." I can't even describe the look of respect on his face when I said that. It was the first time I stated it so clearly for him. If you are mean to people, you must live with the consequences of that behavior.

You give your kids permission to be assertive, you show them how to do it, and that makes it possible for them to do it too.

[ForeverDad]

How can you "make a stand"?  Well, we naturally want to improve the behaviors and repair the relationship, that's both good and reasonable.  The problem is what to do if the other person either refuses to cooperate, obstructs, sabotages or in some way fails to do their part.  Since the other is an adult, you can't order or force positive changes and if the changes are grudging and not truly embraced it won't work for long.  So our mantra here is that if you've tried and failed to get the other person on board with the needed changes even when you've gotten help with counselors and improved your own relationship skills, then (1) accept that you can't force another person to make positive changes and (2) start determining how best you can improve and strengthen your boundaries for proper behavior.  Yes, in cases like ours that have become extreme and high conflict, it usually means that our strategy must include ability to handle worst case scenarios such as ending the relationship.

Can you see yourself accepting this?

If the other won't respond positively then the only way to achieve a positive change is with me, my choices and my actions.

[bpbreakout]

FD I totally agree there is not much more I can do with this marriage & I have accepted that BPDw's behaviour is largely beyond my control.

My thinking is that I can definitely handle the worst case. I have taken some advice and done some research. Should I decide to leave I would quietly rent out an apartment or small house near where we leave and move out with a few days notice. I can also submit a joint parenting plan within a few days and BPDw would be legally required to attend mediation sessions within a week or two. A 50/50 arrangement is totally realistic especially given the ages of the children so any arguments over custody would be over fairly minor things . Also because they are teenagers if BPDw becomes difficult or unstable they can actually physicaly get up and walk out of the house and come to my place at least until things calm down. I would not be required to pay spousal support but would be required to pay child maintaenance which would be manageable. I would be also be hopefull that we could liquidate out joint assets over 12 months or so. BPDw could make things difficult but I'm hopeful that my bond with kids is strong enough to manage attempts at alienation and any false accusations would be refuted by the children if for any reason it went really crazy. The thing that is holding me back is that maybe I can make this marriage work for myself and the kids & some personal stuff about divorce being a failure & giving up on the marriage fantasy which seems to have a hold over me. Also I'm still concerned about leaving S13 with BPDw for long periods of time especially if D15 ended up spending most of her time with me.

L&L I'm really pleased for you that you had this feedback from your son. It is something that I think about a lot that by staying in the marriage I'm sending out a very unhelpful message to the kids. I'm hoping I can find some way of sending a positive message to them from within the marriage (ie no appeasing). The BPD diagnosis has helped me a lot handingling things but as FD says I can't control BPDw's behaviour so she still shouts, has tantrums and gets very controlling.

[bpbreakout]

FD I totally agree there is not much more I can do with this marriage & I have accepted that BPDw's behaviour is largely beyond my control.

My thinking is that I can definitely handle the worst case. I have taken some advice and done some research. Should I decide to leave I would quietly rent out an apartment or small house near where we leave and move out with a few days notice. I can also submit a joint parenting plan within a few days and BPDw would be legally required to attend mediation sessions within a week or two. A 50/50 arrangement is totally realistic especially given the ages of the children so any arguments over custody would be over fairly minor things . Also because they are teenagers if BPDw becomes difficult or unstable they can actually physicaly get up and walk out of the house and come to my place at least until things calm down. I would not be required to pay spousal support but would be required to pay child maintaenance which would be manageable. I would be also be hopefull that we could liquidate out joint assets over 12 months or so. BPDw could make things difficult but I'm hopeful that my bond with kids is strong enough to manage attempts at alienation and any false accusations would be refuted by the children if for any reason it went really crazy. The thing that is holding me back is that maybe I can make this marriage work for myself and the kids & some personal stuff about divorce being a failure & giving up on the marriage fantasy which seems to have a hold over me. Also I'm still concerned about leaving S13 with BPDw for long periods of time especially if D15 ended up spending most of her time with me.

L&L I'm really pleased for you that you had this feedback from your son. It is something that I think about a lot that by staying in the marriage I'm sending out a very unhelpful message to the kids. I'm hoping I can find some way of sending a positive message to them from within the marriage (ie no appeasing). The BPD diagnosis has helped me a lot handingling things but as FD says I can't control BPDw's behaviour so she still shouts, has tantrums and gets very controlling.

[david]

You may want to rethink your plan. If you leave, in the courts view, you are saying she should stay in the house and the kids are fine with her. Documenting that is not the case is a much better position to take.

If BPDw is having rages in front of the kids and you can prove it then shouldn't she be required to leave the residence. That would be in the children's best interest. Leaving the kids in the house with BPDw really makes no sense for the kids.

My ex tried to get me evicted from our residence with crazy allegations and no proof. The judge denied it. The next day she came to our house with the police to have me evicted. She had the petition but it wasn't signed by the judge. She convinced the police that a judges signature was not needed. They told me I had 5 minutes to vacate the premises. I was in the driveway and I called my atty. My atty talked to the police officer and explained that the judge needed to sign it for it to be an order. Ex simply said it was a misunderstanding when it was explained to her. She had an atty in court so that is complete bs. 

[ForeverDad]

Trying to be 'fair' in our cases will likely leave us at a distinct disadvantage.  Why?  Because the stbEx isn't being 'fair'.

For example, you go into court and ask for a reasonable 50%, thinking "Wow, court will be impressed with my fairness!"  However, your ex goes into court and demands 99% or maybe 100% claiming you are Mr Evil Personified.  That leaves the judge perhaps reasoning, "Hmm usually I start cases with the mother getting 80%, father 20% and father footing all the bills.  This case looks a bit extreme, but if I split the difference between their requests (50% versus 99.9%) then neither one gets everything asked, neither one wins, both lose a little from what they requested and I will have performed a great Solomon-like decision.  So I will make a temp order with typical splits, the mother getting 80%, father 20% and father footing all the bills."

Our collective advice is to ask for at least a little extra so that if/when you don't get it all then you'll still have a livable temp order.  Maybe.

Same goes for negotiation such as in mediation or settlement talks, ask for more than what you want to walk out with.  A good negotiator doesn't put his last best cards on the talk at the beginning, you need to add extra so you have something to negotiate away.

[Iforget]

Since they have been exposed to her behaviors in the past you've come to realize that you can't protect your children all the time, it still happened whether you were there or not.

I have to disagree. If your BPD is like my stbx BPDh, my presence greatly affects his behavior. I cringe at the number of times I have arrived home and could hear the screaming from outside. I would walk in and it would go silent. Bpd would constantly stay with in hearing so the kids couldn't tattle. We now have a parenting schedule which dictates who is in charge. When I am away the kids are miserable.

You probably know deep down that the marriage is over. Following the advice on this forum will help you greatly. I suggest keeping a journal. Nothing elaborate. Just not down a note every time BPDw does something crazy, mean, demeaning, to you or the kids. Then when you doubt that you have made the right decision, you will be reassured.